Scouting

[Top Robin]

I've been thinking about the likes of Brighton, Bournemouth, Brentford, Luton and similar when they were in the Championship.

They seemed to have a really good scouting system to the extent that they brought in players from around the world and domestically at relatively low cost and who may have been under the radar.

These players seem to have transformed those teams to the extent that they have been promoted.

When they were in the championship, they were not considered attractive clubs so someone is doing an amazing scouting and selling job.

I genuinely haven't got a clue how our scouting system works but, I can only assume that it is not as good as those I mentioned.

 

 

[BCFCGav]

I think we can trust Tinnion to turn that ship around. In terms of unknowns over the past year, we’ve gotten Tanner and Anis, both of whom look good. O’Brien looks another in that mould. The work he’s done in the academy proves his eye for a gem, I think we’re starting to see that in the market.

[Top Robin]

2 minutes ago, Percy Pig said:

In all seriousness, this is the legacy of Ashton that many posters who have been critical of Nige have dismissed as "excuses". 

Ashton gutted the recruitment team and forced out Burt, brought in his own sycophants and ensured that he was the de facto "head of recruitment". His ego meant that he needed to ensure that without him the entire operation would be redundant.

Since then we've recruited Tinnion into the lead recruitment role, time will tell whether he's good at it or not, but I like the early signs. I also like that there seems to be an open and honest relationship between manager and Tins, they are aligned and are now recruiting to a plan. Previously it was a scattergun mix of basic analytics, "money ball" and trying to turn players into profit. The clubs you mention recruited to a system. A system that has been in place longer than any individual coach or manager. 

We are at the start of the process those clubs embarked on. We've cleared the dead wood, cut our outgoings and embedded a blend of Youth and leaders. Now recruitment becomes important. Those clubs started somewhere. It wasn't overnight. That's where we are now and hopefully it comes to fruition. 

Genuinely Percy, do we have people or contacts abroad looking at young players on the continent?  

[Red Skin]

I do wonder how well these teams are paid.   You could argue they are just as important as players (maybe more so), but I suspect they get nowhere near the amount even the least paid player gets.   Also, how about headhunting some of these high performing operations? 

[Bristol Oil Services]

14 minutes ago, Percy Pig said:

In all seriousness, this is the legacy of Ashton that many posters who have been critical of Nige have dismissed as "excuses". 

Ashton gutted the recruitment team and forced out Burt, brought in his own sycophants and ensured that he was the de facto "head of recruitment". His ego meant that he needed to ensure that without him the entire operation would be redundant.

And he did all this while Steve was having a nap in Guernsey, and watching afternoon repeats of the Repair Shop.

[1960maaan]

14 minutes ago, Percy Pig said:

In all seriousness, this is the legacy of Ashton that many posters who have been critical of Nige have dismissed as "excuses". 

Ashton gutted the recruitment team and forced out Burt, brought in his own sycophants and ensured that he was the de facto "head of recruitment". His ego meant that he needed to ensure that without him the entire operation would be redundant.

Since then we've recruited Tinnion into the lead recruitment role, time will tell whether he's good at it or not, but I like the early signs. I also like that there seems to be an open and honest relationship between manager and Tins, they are aligned and are now recruiting to a plan. Previously it was a scattergun mix of basic analytics, "money ball" and trying to turn players into profit. The clubs you mention recruited to a system. A system that has been in place longer than any individual coach or manager. 

We are at the start of the process those clubs embarked on. We've cleared the dead wood, cut our outgoings and embedded a blend of Youth and leaders. Now recruitment becomes important. Those clubs started somewhere. It wasn't overnight. That's where we are now and hopefully it comes to fruition. 

As pretty much everyone has access to the same data these days, the big issue is how you interpret and use it. When Ashton was here, it does seem that the bloke that loved to wheel and deal was given the scope to buy players. Absolute car crash scenario. 
When Brentford let Warburton go and move towards a "moneyball" style recruitment, I thought they were mad. But it all comes down to how you use what you have, and they've done brilliantly . What Brighton, Brentford and lately even Fulham have done is , pick a shape/style/identity call it what you like, but then all incomers have to fit into that system. That is from top to bottom. It feels with Nige taking interest in the youngsters and having a hand shaping recruitment, we are moving more towards that thinking. 

[Leveller]

4 minutes ago, Percy Pig said:

Yep, Ashton's utter incompetence is actually the symptom of Lansdowns failure. 

 

You have to wonder whether Ashton’s control of recruitment strategy was about ego or doing deals that would benefit his personal means, one way or another.

[1960maaan]

3 minutes ago, Percy Pig said:

Yes, agreed. I do wonder if they'd have been able to be as successful post brexit work permits, now they're shopping for full internationals it becomes a lot easier, but those foreign gems are a lot harder to recruit now than they were a few years ago.

We've missed that boat I think. Getting value from L1 and L2 is the "new" moneyball for me. 

Absolutely, plus a lot of teams shopping in the same Isle. There are still gems out there, just even harder to find now.

[1960maaan]

10 minutes ago, Leveller said:

You have to wonder whether Ashton’s control of recruitment strategy was about ego or doing deals that would benefit his personal means, one way or another.

Didn't I read he got a cut of outgoing transfers ?

[Davefevs]

34 minutes ago, Percy Pig said:

Plenty of rumours around Mo Eisa....

And I doubt that was just on Ashton’s side of the fence either!

24 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

Didn't I read he got a cut of outgoing transfers ?

I doubt that very much, that would be illegal (I think), but there is plenty of money to be made in the transfer supply chain, from the old fashioned brown envelope from an agent to conflicts of interests with suppliers of “services” such as:

• hotels players are put up in whilst they find more a permanent abode is found
• courtesy cars
• assistance with the above permanent abodes, removals, etc

on transfers in and out.

Theres a piece of the our to find it’s way into your pocket if you have “interests” in those suppliers.  Companies  House is your friend!!!

[1960maaan]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I doubt that very much, that would be illegal (I think), but there is plenty of money to be made in the transfer supply chain, from the old fashioned brown envelope from an agent to conflicts of interests with suppliers of “services”

I have heard Barry Fry benefited in the same way (and others TBH). A bonus or % of profits, not saying it's Gospel , but it wouldn't surprise me if it was true.

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

I have heard Barry Fry benefited in the same way (and others TBH). A bonus or % of profits, not saying it's Gospel , but it wouldn't surprise me if it was true.

Looking at Ashton’s earnings, I suspect his CEO earnings were based on financial performance in certain areas, but not taking a cut directly from transfers.

 

(still a conflict of interest / poor way to set objectives)

[Dredd]

Just going back to Tins, if you look at some of the players he signed while he was in charge of us: Keogh, Orr, Brooker, Russell, gave Lita that starting role. Big players for us in the GJ promotion season and beyond in some cases. Orr and Lita played in the Prem, Keogh played at the top end of the Championship. I'd say he's got an eye for a player. 

[spudski]

1 hour ago, Percy Pig said:

In all seriousness, this is the legacy of Ashton that many posters who have been critical of Nige have dismissed as "excuses". 

Ashton gutted the recruitment team and forced out Burt, brought in his own sycophants and ensured that he was the de facto "head of recruitment". His ego meant that he needed to ensure that without him the entire operation would be redundant.

Since then we've recruited Tinnion into the lead recruitment role, time will tell whether he's good at it or not, but I like the early signs. I also like that there seems to be an open and honest relationship between manager and Tins, they are aligned and are now recruiting to a plan. Previously it was a scattergun mix of basic analytics, "money ball" and trying to turn players into profit. The clubs you mention recruited to a system. A system that has been in place longer than any individual coach or manager. 

We are at the start of the process those clubs embarked on. We've cleared the dead wood, cut our outgoings and embedded a blend of Youth and leaders. Now recruitment becomes important. Those clubs started somewhere. It wasn't overnight. That's where we are now and hopefully it comes to fruition. 

I notice Steve Cotterill has ' released' Burt as head of recruitment at Shrewsbury...after 3 years. Having worked with him here and Forest. 

When speaking to Burt and SoD whilst watching FGR in the past, I found them both fascinating characters. 

Burt definitely liked to work with certain Agents, and would sometimes dismiss players if they weren't with Agents or Agencies he preferred. 

You can make of that what you will...but I found at the time it was putting the Club at a certain disadvantage. 

Imo...he's got an eye for lower league players. 

[Port Said Red]

1 hour ago, Percy Pig said:

Yep, Ashton's utter incompetence is actually the symptom of Lansdowns failure. 

Failure? 

[CodeRed]

37 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

And I doubt that was just on Ashton’s side of the fence either!

I doubt that very much, that would be illegal (I think), but there is plenty of money to be made in the transfer supply chain, from the old fashioned brown envelope from an agent to conflicts of interests with suppliers of “services” such as:

• hotels players are put up in whilst they find more a permanent abode is found
• courtesy cars
• assistance with the above permanent abodes, removals, etc

on transfers in and out.

Theres a piece of the our to find it’s way into your pocket if you have “interests” in those suppliers.  Companies  House is your friend!!!

Didn't Ashton's partner run her own company that provided services to clubs/players such as you mention: help with relocation, accomodation, renting property, paperwork, documentation etc ?

I'm sure I read that somewhere. You would think the club would have someone in house to do all that but it seems it was outsourced.

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, CodeRed said:

Didn't Ashton's partner run her own company that provided services to clubs/players such as you mention: help with relocation, accomodation, renting property, paperwork, documentation etc ?

I'm sure I read that somewhere. You would think the club would have someone in house to do all that but it seems it was outsourced.

I couldn’t possibly comment

[Port Said Red]

16 minutes ago, Percy Pig said:

I wouldn't say two promotions from the third division in 24 years with over £200m spent is "success" would you? 

I would say that other teams have spent similar or more and have been in the league below us for several seasons.

[Port Said Red]

4 minutes ago, Percy Pig said:

And others have spent less and been in the Prem! 

Of course, but that's the football world isn't it. There is no magic formula, either way. I just get fed up with this idea that somehow someone else would have spent the same money and GUARANTEED success. It's absolute bollox, I keep hearing "well he's not a football man" but nobody will give me the list of chairmen/owners that are, it's more common they aren't. I can think of two Dave Whelan, who got it right for a while and Niall Quinn who presumably was the wrong kind of football man as Sunderland from bad to worse under his leadership.

[Bristol Rob]

3 hours ago, Top Robin said:

I've been thinking about the likes of Brighton, Bournemouth, Brentford, Luton and similar when they were in the Championship.

They seemed to have a really good scouting system to the extent that they brought in players from around the world and domestically at relatively low cost and who may have been under the radar.

These players seem to have transformed those teams to the extent that they have been promoted.

When they were in the championship, they were not considered attractive clubs so someone is doing an amazing scouting and selling job.

I genuinely haven't got a clue how our scouting system works but, I can only assume that it is not as good as those I mentioned.

 

 

JK, AN, NE, HNM, EP, FD*, and that French keeper who I have forgotten...

Get the point, we do (clearly) scout overseas, just not quite with the same impact.

*thought I would try and answer the 'initial' question.

[frenchred]

3 hours ago, Top Robin said:

Genuinely Percy, do we have people or contacts abroad looking at young players on the continent?  

No

[1960maaan]

8 minutes ago, Percy Pig said:

he's blown so many golden opportunities with arrogant managerial appointments

This gets me .
While I'm not totally disagreeing with you, there is no magic formula for picking a (and this is the key word) successful Manager. You can go through all the appointments and say you wouldn't have chosen them, but there were reasons he should. 
There can be a case made for every Manager appointed by SL, whether they work or not comes later, but you can give a reason why they were all appointed. They didn't work out for various reasons, then you get to Steve Cotterill , not many wanted him but was a success. I seem to remember the phrase of the day was underwhelmed . 
this is where my argument gets wobbly......
Lee Johnson,  Young & inexperienced but keen to learn, this could have worked by giving a Manager the time and guarantees to build the Club. Great idea, wrong choice of man possibly.
Dean Holden , WTAF ? unfair on Holden.
Nigel Pearson , never thought Steve would have the guts to employ a strong outspoken man. Looks like he made a good choice. 
I don't see arrogant managerial appointments, just managerial appointments.
On a side note, and TBF to Lansdown, ( I almost hate to excuse this ) he had been told to get a football man to help him, sadly  Ashton was that football man . The main criticism I can lay on SL is he has been too loyal. Too loyal to LJ, too loyal ( or believing) in Ashton. 

He's made plenty of mistakes, or alternatively, he's made plenty of decisions that we don't agree with (see Steve Cotterill), he'll probably make more. Simon Jordan is reported to have lost £40M at Palace, he was  making decisions for the right reasons but they didn't work. Even Man U recently , different level but with their stature and money could just pick a winner. 
Someone has to make a choice, then they have to suck it up if it bites them in the ass. It is not an exact science. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

All of the clubs who were listed had good recruitment in common but all had different models!

The one I most often draw comparisons with is Brentford. A number if players we signed frok overseas were if a similar profile, starting point at the time of signing.

At time of signing, could Nagy and Massengo vs Norgaard and Jensen profile wise not he relatively interchangeable to name two. I fancy they would (injuries permitting) have flourished more at Brentford, maybe can add Eliasson to that too.

Kalas or Jansson? As of 2019 is there a great deal of difference- if anything Kalas is a bit ahead!

Edited May 28, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Porto Red]

4 hours ago, Percy Pig said:

<insert something witty>

You said "insert", uh huh uh huh (insert Beavis and Butthead gif)

[steviestevieneville]

26 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

This gets me .
While I'm not totally disagreeing with you, there is no magic formula for picking a (and this is the key word) successful Manager. You can go through all the appointments and say you wouldn't have chosen them, but there were reasons he should. 
There can be a case made for every Manager appointed by SL, whether they work or not comes later, but you can give a reason why they were all appointed. They didn't work out for various reasons, then you get to Steve Cotterill , not many wanted him but was a success. I seem to remember the phrase of the day was underwhelmed . 
this is where my argument gets wobbly......
Lee Johnson,  Young & inexperienced but keen to learn, this could have worked by giving a Manager the time and guarantees to build the Club. Great idea, wrong choice of man possibly.
Dean Holden , WTAF ? unfair on Holden.
Nigel Pearson , never thought Steve would have the guts to employ a strong outspoken man. Looks like he made a good choice. 
I don't see arrogant managerial appointments, just managerial appointments.
On a side note, and TBF to Lansdown, ( I almost hate to excuse this ) he had been told to get a football man to help him, sadly  Ashton was that football man . The main criticism I can lay on SL is he has been too loyal. Too loyal to LJ, too loyal ( or believing) in Ashton. 

He's made plenty of mistakes, or alternatively, he's made plenty of decisions that we don't agree with (see Steve Cotterill), he'll probably make more. Simon Jordan is reported to have lost £40M at Palace, he was  making decisions for the right reasons but they didn't work. Even Man U recently , different level but with their stature and money could just pick a winner. 
Someone has to make a choice, then they have to suck it up if it bites them in the ass. It is not an exact science. 

The biggest mistake for me was employing Ashton a second time after he royally buggered up recruitment previously , leading to relegation . To actually appoint him CEO  was unbelievable 

[BLRed]

Always wondered why we don’t look Into the Brazilian/Argentinian market like others have done. Seems to be a lot of gems that could be turned into better players and good profit.

[Northern Red]

2 minutes ago, BLRed said:

Always wondered why we don’t look Into the Brazilian/Argentinian market like others have done. Seems to be a lot of gems that could be turned into better players and good profit.

Brexit hasn't helped. Trying to get work permits for the level of players we'd be shopping at is nigh on impossible now.

Edited May 28, 2023 by Northern Red

[Northern Red]

4 hours ago, Percy Pig said:

Plenty of rumours around Mo Eisa....

And Engvall.

[Davefevs]

7 minutes ago, Northern Red said:

Brexit hasn't helped. Trying to get work permits for the level of players we'd be shopping at is nigh on impossible now.

Brexit has actually helped for South American players….it’s Europe where it screwed English clubs.  The South American leagues and continental cup comps are ranked higher than they might otherwise have been.

[22A]

6 hours ago, Top Robin said:

I've been thinking about the likes of Brighton, Bournemouth, Brentford, Luton and similar when they were in the Championship.

They seemed to have a really good scouting system to the extent that they brought in players from around the world and domestically at relatively low cost and who may have been under the radar.

These players seem to have transformed those teams to the extent that they have been promoted.

 

Go back 50 years; City recruited heavily in Scotland, but Norwich spotted a lad from Gordano - Paul Cheeseley. Fortunately they agreed to us buying him and his goals got us promoted.