Sarina Wiegman to replace Gareth Southgate?

[Coxy27]

2 minutes ago, Glen hump said:

How do you come to that conclusion, they have zero experience of the men’s game, the women’s and men’s games are like 2 different sports.

Well, Weigman as an example, took two separate nations who had never previously got close to winning titles, to European titles and then World Cup finals. Yes it's the women's game rather than the men's and I appreciate there are differences.

But fundamentally she has proved to be a good coach, decision maker in regards to selections, tactics, etc. Skills that no one could argue are not transferrable.

Do I think she would be worthy of the England men's national team position currently? No, probably not.

However to dismiss her purely for not having managed in the men's game is a bit narrow minded I think.

My point was there are manager's that get jobs consistently in the men's game at reasonably high levels, who are proven failures with none of the pedigree these two have.

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

12 minutes ago, Coxy27 said:

Wiegman and Hayes would be far better choices than some of the managers currently in the men's game at a pretty high level.

Explain.

[Davefevs]

30 minutes ago, Negan said:

Nobody likes to say it because we live in a world where it’s better to be ignorant. I’ve watched 2 of the women’s games now at this World Cup, the level (which is no fault of their own) is absolutely awful. The evolution of women’s football is still in its very early stages, it’s great how it’s coming along but let’s not pretend it’s anywhere near the men’s game. I have no doubt in my mind that if you put the Bath City men’s team in the women’s World Cup they’d win it without conceding. So to even think the manager of the women’s national team should be considered for the men’s national team is laughable. She’s succeeding because she’s a very talented woman in a talented woman’s set up. Let them build together and improve their game. If she takes the man’s job it just makes the women’s game feel like stepping stone when that should be her pinnacle. She needs to stay there and build a legacy in women’s football. It won’t end well for any woman that steps in to the men’s game. It’s too brutal, the women’s game is a much more appealing and friendly environment where they actually have a chance at making it.

Once again, like others, you are assuming that because the standards of play are chalk and cheese the standard of coaching is in parallel.

Coaching badge qualifications are no different for men or women.

At a very black and white level there should be no difference in the capability of a man or a women if they have both attained the top level badge.  There are other factors, don’t get me wrong, but I think standard of play isn’t the right argument.

I’ll reserve judgment on whether men’s football is too brutal for a woman…but I’ve worked for some brutal women in my time.  I think it’s down to the individual character, not their sex!

[Davefevs]

11 minutes ago, Lorenzos Only Goal said:

Explain.

Did you see Steve Morison’s Cardiff?

(did you hear his pre and post match interviews too? Wow!)

[ChrisBW]

Women’s international football is the equivalent to, if imagine, Combined Counties. So No.

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

1 minute ago, Coxy27 said:

Well, Weigman as an example, took two separate nations who had never previously got close to winning titles, to European titles and then World Cup finals. Yes it's the women's game rather than the men's and I appreciate there are differences.

But fundamentally she has proved to be a good coach, decision maker in regards to selections, tactics, etc. Skills that no one could argue are not transferrable.

Do I think she would be worthy of the England men's national team position currently? No, probably not.

However to dismiss her purely for not having managed in the men's game is a bit narrow minded I think.

My point was there are manager's that get jobs consistently in the men's game at reasonably high levels, who are proven failures with none of the pedigree these two have.

I think she got away rather lightly with some of the group games where England were not quite firing,  Daly ended up covering central defence at times and left us looking very nervous late in the early games. Daly has looked more comfortable in the later games but she's played central striker for villa all season and in the early games was playing left wing/back and looked very rusty at times. Because coverage and support of the women's game is hit and miss I think she avoids that sort of criticism.   

[Davefevs]

13 minutes ago, ChrisBW said:

Women’s international football is the equivalent to, if imagine, Combined Counties. So No.

Relevance to coaching ability?

[Glen hump]

21 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Once again, like others, you are assuming that because the standards of play are chalk and cheese the standard of coaching is in parallel.

Coaching badge qualifications are no different for men or women.

At a very black and white level there should be no difference in the capability of a man or a women if they have both attained the top level badge.  There are other factors, don’t get me wrong, but I think standard of play isn’t the right argument.

I’ll reserve judgment on whether men’s football is too brutal for a woman…but I’ve worked for some brutal women in my time.  I think it’s down to the individual character, not their sex!

The coaching badges mean absolutely nothing, you could have all the badges there is to be had , still doesn’t make you a good coach 

[Cov 77]

16 hours ago, Slack Bladder said:

I think with the players at his disposal he's underachieved

Should have won the Euros

He lost on penalties ffs 

[Numero Uno]

1 hour ago, chinapig said:

You are in the majority in saying this so my point is a general one rather than aimed at you but I'm curious as to how this difference shows itself apart from the obvious physical one.

I don't see any difference in formations, tactics etc for instance. Would a woman coaching a men's team have to learn a whole new set of coaching skills? Or indeed would a man have to do the same if he took over a women's team?

I'm open to persuasion but I would need somebody to explain the difference rather than just assert it.

One massive difference is the pace of the game. That alone makes the two games completely different.

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Glen hump said:

The coaching badges mean absolutely nothing, you could have all the badges there is to be had , still doesn’t make you a good coach 

No, it doesn’t, but the point is, it has no relevance to the standard / style of football that the coach takes charge in.  Sex is irrelevant isn’t it?  That’s the point I’m trying to make, posters are using the wrong thing to base their side of the argument.

 

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

28 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Did you see Steve Morison’s Cardiff?

(did you hear his pre and post match interviews too? Wow!)

But he did the same coaching badges... She would probably be a decent coach in men's football given time.  I just dislike the notion that a great women's coach translates directly into a great mens coach.

[DaveF]

Just now, Lorenzos Only Goal said:

But he did the same coaching badges... She would probably be a decent coach in men's football given time.  I just dislike the notion that a great women's coach translates directly into a great mens coach.

Explain.

[Eddie Hitler]

7 minutes ago, Glen hump said:

The coaching badges mean absolutely nothing, you could have all the badges there is to be had , still doesn’t make you a good coach 

 

Absolutely that.

Look at all the highly qualified and fully badged up assistant managers who step up to being a full manager and it's an absolute disaster because they don't have the man management skills that such a job requires.  Brian Kidd was the classic example of this.  Superb assistant manager, terrible manager.

The best preparation for being a good manager of a big club is to start in the lower leagues and prove yourself there.

 

Brian Kidd's dire managerial career:

1998–1999 Blackburn Rovers

Kidd left United to take charge at Blackburn Rovers in December 1998, replacing Roy Hodgson who had been sacked after Blackburn's poor start to the season left them in the relegation zone. Despite Kidd having a promising start with Rovers, which saw him voted Premier League Manager of the Month and having also spent nearly £20 million on new players in his first four months in charge he was unable to save them from being relegated from the Premier League (just four years after being champions) and Kidd was dismissed on 3 November 1999 with Rovers standing 19th in Division One

 

Brian Kidd's absolutely superb assistant managerial career:

1988–1991    Manchester United (youth team)
1991–1998    Manchester United (assistant)

2000–2003    Leeds United (assistant)
2003–2004    England (assistant)
2006–2008    Sheffield United (assistant)
2009    Portsmouth (assistant)
2009    Manchester City (youth team)
2009–2010    Manchester City (assistant)
2010–2021    Manchester City (co-assistant)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Kidd

[Davefevs]

Just now, Lorenzos Only Goal said:

But he did the same coaching badges... She would probably be a decent coach in men's football given time.  I just dislike the notion that a great women's coach translates directly into a great mens coach.

I agree.

I dislike the notion that because the game is different a female coach couldn’t be a good coach of a men’s team.  How the hell has Ange P got a job at Spurs coming from Celtic…because that’s a totally different game.  I’m being facetious to make my point.

There are 101 other reasons why a female coach might find it hard, difference in game style isn’t really one for me.  They aren’t the ones playing the game.

[chinapig]

4 minutes ago, Lorenzos Only Goal said:

But he did the same coaching badges... She would probably be a decent coach in men's football given time.  I just dislike the notion that a great women's coach translates directly into a great mens coach.

Is anybody saying that though? More a case of saying there is no objective reason why a woman couldn't coach a men's team.

Those taking an absolutist position are the ones who assert that a woman couldn't because she is a woman or because there is some unspecified difference between coaching men and women. Though you have not argued that I should add.

[Glen hump]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I agree.

I dislike the notion that because the game is different a female coach couldn’t be a good coach of a men’s team.  How the hell has Ange P got a job at Spurs coming from Celtic…because that’s a totally different game.  I’m being facetious to make my point.

There are 101 other reasons why a female coach might find it hard, difference in game style isn’t really one for me.  They aren’t the ones playing the game.

Would you take serina at city Dave.

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

Just now, DaveF said:

Explain.

I think I have if you read my posts.  There are some decisions she made early on in this tournament re Daly that would have been almost certainly punished in the mens game.  

She's done well as head women's coach, there is no need to tarnish that with needless comparisons.  If you look at Sampson minus the scandal he did very well with England and Bristol Academy before that arguably with a less talented pool, he tried his hand at mens football and he's been awful.  

[Glen hump]

44 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Did you see Steve Morison’s Cardiff?

(did you hear his pre and post match interviews too? Wow!)

There’s shit managers in both codes 

[chinapig]

19 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

One massive difference is the pace of the game. That alone makes the two games completely different.

But I am talking about coaching the game not playing it. I don't see how the pace on the pitch has anything to do with a woman coaching the players. Nobody is suggesting that Lauren Hemp should succeed Harry Kane!

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, Glen hump said:

Would you take serina at city Dave.

Yep, in a heartbeat.…if she was the best candidate.

The likelihood is that there will be other candidates who have as good if not better credentials though.

At some point, someone is gonna appoint a female head-coach / manager in the 92.

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

5 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Is anybody saying that though? More a case of saying there is no objective reason why a woman couldn't coach a men's team.

Those taking an absolutist position are the ones who assert that a woman couldn't because she is a woman or because there is some unspecified difference between coaching men and women. Though you have not argued that I should add.

Here is a phrase I heard the other day, "it's the first time since 1966 an England team has been in a world cup final" that and phrases like it belittle the mens game and women's game in equal measures.

The womens achievements stand on their own, and the constant men vs women bullshit is nauseous. We don't do it in athletics, cricket, rugby or boxing for that matter.  

[chinapig]

31 minutes ago, Glen hump said:

The coaching badges mean absolutely nothing, you could have all the badges there is to be had , still doesn’t make you a good coach 

I would say that badges on their own are not enough. Qualifications matter in any walk of life but you have to be able to apply your knowledge, which brings in communication and people skills for instance. There will be those who don't have those skills whether they are men or women.

[Glen hump]

7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, in a heartbeat.…if she was the best candidate.

The likelihood is that there will be other candidates who have as good if not better credentials though.

At some point, someone is gonna appoint a female head-coach / manager in the 92.

She’s the best female coach in the world, what other candidates could we possibly attract to compete with her, I personally wouldn’t touch her with a barge pole, all these female coaches sound like there reading from a textbook when interviewed, they come across as their trying to hard to sound knowledgeable.

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, in a heartbeat.…if she was the best candidate.

The likelihood is that there will be other candidates who have as good if not better credentials though.

At some point, someone is gonna appoint a female head-coach / manager in the 92.

I've had a word with SL, and he has assured me he won't be selling you the club or appointing you as CEO.  He said you can do the analytics though he likes your spreadsheets.

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

25 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Is anybody saying that though? More a case of saying there is no objective reason why a woman couldn't coach a men's team.

Those taking an absolutist position are the ones who assert that a woman couldn't because she is a woman or because there is some unspecified difference between coaching men and women. Though you have not argued that I should add.

Objectively I could manage the England side, we might have some odd results against Andorra but...  there is no reason why a women couldn't manage the mens England side, but as long as there is some evidence of them being able to manage mens football.  Take Mark Sampson minus the scandals he's terrible mens football coach and good women's coach.

[Glen hump]

2 minutes ago, Lorenzos Only Goal said:

Objectively I could manage the England side, we might have some odd results against Andorra but...  there is no reason why a women couldn't manage the mens England side, but as long as there is some evidence of them being able to manage mens football.  Take Mark Sampson minus the scandals he's terrible mens football coach and good women's coach.

Phill Neville’s shit In both cases 

[Numero Uno]

45 minutes ago, chinapig said:

But I am talking about coaching the game not playing it. I don't see how the pace on the pitch has anything to do with a woman coaching the players. Nobody is suggesting that Lauren Hemp should succeed Harry Kane!

Tbh I didn’t pick up your point was specifically aimed at coaching. The biggest issue in that respect, especially at the highest levels, would be dealing with ego’s in the changing room when things are going wrong asking “who the **** are you”, “what have you done in the mens game?” Etc. Doesn’t make it right but that would 100% be an issue.

[redkev]

56 minutes ago, Glen hump said:

Would you take serina at city Dave.

I’m glad you put the words (At city )in the sentence