First impressions post Nige

[Olé]

12 hours ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

If you think today was the worst football we've played in 18 months then I suspect you haven't gone to any matches.

Taking account of the opposition, today was the worst football we’ve played in 18 months and respectfully, I have been at every single one of the matches, freezing cold Tuesday nights in Huddersfield and all.

Birmingham and Reading away last season run it close but both were better teams than QPR who even objectively are one of the worst Championship teams I’ve ever seen and had absolutely nothing about them.

The game was there for us on a plate, QPR looked like a team waiting to lose again and yet we ‘suddenly’ managed to look confused and scared and that is solely as a result of the change the club decided to make.

Of course it is “far too early” to judge Manning, but if the owners choose to press the reset button mid season then it is never too early to judge that decision and on the basis of yesterday it is an act of self-sabotage.

[One Team]

3 minutes ago, Olé said:

Taking account of the opposition, today was the worst football we’ve played in 18 months and respectfully, I have been at every single one of the matches, freezing cold Tuesday nights in Huddersfield and all.

Birmingham and Reading away last season run it close but both were better teams than QPR who even objectively are one of the worst Championship teams I’ve ever seen and had absolutely nothing about them.

The game was there for us on a plate, QPR looked like a team waiting to lose again and yet we ‘suddenly’ managed to look confused and scared and that is solely as a result of the change the club decided to make.

Of course it is “far too early” to judge Manning, but if the owners choose to press the reset button mid season then it is never too early to judge that decision and on the basis of yesterday it is an act of self-sabotage.

Best post I’ve seen on the subject and given you go to every game I would suggest the one with the most credibility.

[David Brent]

15 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Didn’t Gary Johnson take ten games before getting a win ? 
That didn’t turn out too badly.

 I echo what many have said on here. Confidence in the people running the show is lower than a snake’s  scrotum and they have instigated an environment where only success on the pitch can save them. 
The coach needs to get the players onside pdq and he needs to show why he was the preferred choice over Pearson. 
He’s not going to do that in three days. I am , however, hoping for a City master stroke where in the summer we are the talk of football as our brilliant young coach propels us towards the Prem , then I réalise who we are and in the pit of my stomach I feel it won’t work out. 
 

Not quite. He won his first game in charge.

The point here, that many are missing, is that our owners have implied that the new manager won’t need time or new players as we have a squad already capable of challenging for promotion. They just didn’t believe our previous head coach was getting enough out of them. 

[AshtonGreat]

15 minutes ago, Olé said:

Taking account of the opposition, today was the worst football we’ve played in 18 months and respectfully, I have been at every single one of the matches, freezing cold Tuesday nights in Huddersfield and all.

Birmingham and Reading away last season run it close but both were better teams than QPR who even objectively are one of the worst Championship teams I’ve ever seen and had absolutely nothing about them.

The game was there for us on a plate, QPR looked like a team waiting to lose again and yet we ‘suddenly’ managed to look confused and scared and that is solely as a result of the change the club decided to make.

Of course it is “far too early” to judge Manning, but if the owners choose to press the reset button mid season then it is never too early to judge that decision and on the basis of yesterday it is an act of self-sabotage.

I'd say that's not unexpected considering what's happened over the last week or so, and would definitely put that down to the players rather than Manning. I'm optimistic he'll start to stamp his authority pretty quickly

[slartibartfast]

31 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Didn’t Gary Johnson take ten games before getting a win ? 
That didn’t turn out too badly.

 I echo what many have said on here. Confidence in the people running the show is lower than a snake’s  scrotum and they have instigated an environment where only success on the pitch can save them. 
The coach needs to get the players onside pdq and he needs to show why he was the preferred choice over Pearson. 
He’s not going to do that in three days. I am , however, hoping for a City master stroke where in the summer we are the talk of football as our brilliant young coach propels us towards the Prem , then I réalise who we are and in the pit of my stomach I feel it won’t work out. 
 

No, he won the first one, then took 10 games to do it again .

[bearded_red]

Not that it is in any way relevant to the position the current manager has taken over, but Gary Johnson won 3 of his first 4 games.. then did lose nine on the spin.

[Iron Acton Red]

13 minutes ago, slartibartfast said:

No, he won the first one, then took 10 games to do it again .

Was it Brentford we beat?

[glynriley]

30 minutes ago, pongo88 said:

 

The players brought in by City’s recent transfer policy are mainly league one standard, bought on the hope they can develop into top six Championship players. Nigel wasn’t given the budget (transfer fees and salary) to get anything better. If LM has to operate under the same constraints the results will be broadly the same. If he suddenly has a bigger budget in the summer, and better quality players arrive, it will be an admission that the current strategy was wrong 

I agree, if the budget is increased it’s just further proof that NP has been shafted, but we all know that anyway. 
 

I just think 4 players OOC gives him the opportunity to remould the midfield unit. Not necessarily with better quality or more expensive players, just a different type. 
 

The proof of the board tucking up Nige will be in January for me. If LM is allowed to bring in 3 or 4, then it further exposes the lies about budget’s being maxed out, and we’ll be in another flip flop in strategy from from the Lansdowns. 
 

They’ve failed to read the room on this managerial change and are now under massive scrutiny. 
 

 

[cidercity1987]

Who cares what Gary J did or didn't do. Coming in near bottom of L1 after a failed manager is in no way relevant to current situation. Other than that same failed manager is somehow manager again in all but name.

[noize]

14 hours ago, Kibs said:

But what happens when both teams have a new manager? Like today. 

You do have a point.

I guess we have to consider if QPR have a top ten budget and a squad that should be challenging at the top? then it's the same expectation i guess.

The stats for the game were incredibly even, next game will be easier to measure.

There were a few positives.

[BigTone]

Too early to comment IMO

[Mr Popodopolous]

GJ won 3 out of his first 4 in the League didn't he. Granted things soon took a nosedive..but they eventually got better, much better.

He inherited a terrible situation though so it's not really comparable.

Edited November 12, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Phileas Fogg]

I think one interesting aspect of management that Manning will have to consider is how the players will transition from what seems to be a very different style of communication/man management.

From what we've seen as Manning, he's clearly a very different character to Pearson. He's easily our most introverted manager since SO'D and I can't imagine he's someone who rants and raves at his players.

I've met Pearson and Fleming in the company of a few players and in that context, it's very easy to see who is the boss. Pearson is exactly as he comes across in interviews - confident, gregarious and commands the room. Fleming is similar and he's deceptively physically imposing. Pearson is clearly pretty old school, and the relationship he had with the players felt similar to that of a popular (yet scary) headmaster with his pupils or a colonel and a platoon of soldiers.

Compare that to Manning, who's not only a very different style of communicator, but also a fair bit younger.. and it'll be interesting to see how the players react to this. You'd think for most pros that wouldn't be an issue, but we have a number of the first-team squad where this will be only the second first-team manager they've played under. Inevitably this will take a bit of time.

This isn't necessarily a criticism of Manning, as maybe the players will prefer his style; but will be interesting to see.

Edited November 12, 2023 by Phileas Fogg

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, bcfcnick said:

I think it was a big mistake to raise promotion expectations and, by implication, the current league position as the reason for the disappointing sacking of Nigel Pearson. It was a red herring in my view and not necessarily delusional.

Manning does have a big opportunity though to reshape the squad in the summer because I am fairly sure James, Weimann, Williams and King's contracts won't be renewed.  They will all be on a decent amount.  I think there was a bit of confusion about spending in the summer as the wages budget was hit as opposed to the transfer fee budget and one of Nigel's objectives was not to have too big a difference between first-team wages. He definitely wasn't complaining about the lack of budget which shows how unselfish he was and that should have been appreciated by the owners.  

In terms of other players,  I hope Conway signs a new deal otherwise bids will be looked at. He's a confidence player and needs service as he is potentially a prolific scorer but presently he wouldn't attract the interest Semenyo and Scott did.  Ross McCrorie will make a more dynamic full-back although Tanner's is impressive defensively.  I'd love to see a fit Benarous as I think he is a real talent and from what I have seen a great attitude with a desire to succeed.  I can see Mehmeti being moved on. Sometimes lower division players thrive and sometimes they don't and it shouldn't stop us looking at talent from lower levels.

In short, there is surprisingly a lot of scope to reshape things to Manning's desired way to play in the summer with contracts expiring, injury returns and some astute signings.  

None of us know their wages, but speculation says James is in £15k, Weimann £10-12k, Williams £18k (signed pre-Covid), King £3-5k.  That’s £45-50k p.w. (£2.5m).  I wouldn’t say that is a decent amount in terms of using it to reshape the squad per se.  FWIW I think Andi triggered a 4th year in his contract so still think he’ll be under contract.

12 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I think one interesting aspect of management that Manning will have to consider is how the players will transition from what seems to be a very different style of communication/man management.

From what we've seen as Manning, he's clearly a very different character to Pearson. He's easily our most introverted manager since SO'D and I can't imagine he's someone who rants and raves at his players.

I've met Pearson and Fleming in the company of a few players and in that context, it's very easy to see who is the boss. Pearson is exactly as he comes across in interviews - confident, gregarious and commands the room. Fleming is similar and he's deceptively physically imposing. Pearson is clearly pretty old school, and the relationship he had with the players felt similar to that of a popular (yet scary) headmaster with his pupils or a colonel and a platoon of soldiers.

Compare that to Manning, who's not only a very different style of communicator, but also a fair bit younger.. and it'll be interesting to see how the players react to this. You'd think for most pros that wouldn't be an issue, but we have a number of the first-team squad where this will be only the second first-team manager they've played under. Inevitably this will take a bit of time.

This isn't necessarily a criticism of Manning, as maybe the players will prefer his style; but will be interesting to see.

Great post and very interesting angle.  

[Loderingo]

1 hour ago, bcfcnick said:

I think it was a big mistake to raise promotion expectations and, by implication, the current league position as the reason for the disappointing sacking of Nigel Pearson. It was a red herring in my view and not necessarily delusional.

Manning does have a big opportunity though to reshape the squad in the summer because I am fairly sure James, Weimann, Williams and King's contracts won't be renewed.  They will all be on a decent amount.  I think there was a bit of confusion about spending in the summer as the wages budget was hit as opposed to the transfer fee budget and one of Nigel's objectives was not to have too big a difference between first-team wages. He definitely wasn't complaining about the lack of budget which shows how unselfish he was and that should have been appreciated by the owners.  

In terms of other players,  I hope Conway signs a new deal otherwise bids will be looked at. He's a confidence player and needs service as he is potentially a prolific scorer but presently he wouldn't attract the interest Semenyo and Scott did.  Ross McCrorie will make a more dynamic full-back although Tanner's is impressive defensively.  I'd love to see a fit Benarous as I think he is a real talent and from what I have seen a great attitude with a desire to succeed.  I can see Mehmeti being moved on. Sometimes lower division players thrive and sometimes they don't and it shouldn't stop us looking at talent from lower levels.

In short, there is surprisingly a lot of scope to reshape things to Manning's desired way to play in the summer with contracts expiring, injury returns and some astute signings.  

I would love for someone to pin down JL or Tinnion on the top 6 expectations.

If you look at the championship on transfermarkt. They have us 20/24 for the value of our squad.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/championship/startseite/wettbewerb/GB2

By that metric, we are overperforming to be 11th.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Loderingo said:

I would love for someone to pin down JL or Tinnion on the top 6 expectations.

If you look at the championship on transfermarkt. They have us 20/24 for the value of our squad.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/championship/startseite/wettbewerb/GB2

By that metric, we are overperforming to be 11th.

Often used expression - if we had everyone fit our squad is x, y and z

But if we use that, we must also compare that to the other 23 team’s fully available squad also.  We are not top 6 on paper at all.

The reason a lot of us had optimism is that the squad was tight knit, good spirit, can run all day, bust a gut for each other, bodies on the line type stuff. Not because we thought they were too technicians.

There is a big gap between being “competitive”, being “in-games” and taking it to the next level.  It probably needs more than coaching, it needs investment in quality players.

To sit at 11th and think top-6 is the expectation is crazy.  I’d argue top half is based on a good wind behind us.

They’ve made a rod for their own backs (LM’s back too) in the eyes of the fans.

[Sir Geoff]

51 minutes ago, Spreadsheet Boy said:

Often used expression - if we had everyone fit our squad is x, y and z

But if we use that, we must also compare that to the other 23 team’s fully available squad also.  We are not top 6 on paper at all.

The reason a lot of us had optimism is that the squad was tight knit, good spirit, can run all day, bust a gut for each other, bodies on the line type stuff. Not because we thought they were too technicians.

There is a big gap between being “competitive”, being “in-games” and taking it to the next level.  It probably needs more than coaching, it needs investment in quality players.

To sit at 11th and think top-6 is the expectation is crazy.  I’d argue top half is based on a good wind behind us.

They’ve made a rod for their own backs (LM’s back too) in the eyes of the fans.

Which is exactly what NP was doing over a period of time. Ease a few out bring in slightly better. It doesn't happen overnight, unless you think like the 3 wise men that run our club.

[Bazooka Joe]

7 hours ago, Lew-T said:

So we’re back to square one? New man comes in and wants to change it.

Where is the supposedly continuity in that?

Sadly Lew, the continuity is that we keep doing this continually.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

[Lew-T]

4 minutes ago, Bazooka Joe said:

Sadly Lew, the continuity is that we keep doing this continually.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

Yep.

[Bazooka Joe]

2 hours ago, David Brent said:

Not quite. He won his first game in charge.

The point here, that many are missing, is that our owners have implied that the new manager won’t need time or new players as we have a squad already capable of challenging for promotion. They just didn’t believe our previous head coach was getting enough out of them. 

Spot on.

But several on here are already saying that is not the case, and focusing on Manning (assuming he's still here) changing the squad in the summer.

Talk about constantly moving the goalposts.

[Mr Popodopolous]

To also add, TV money rises by a few million next season.

Depending in our budget, we can surely add that to the pot along with any savings from departures or profit on sales.

"What football makes, football fan spend".

Now I'd rather it had gone to NP but we are where we are.

[Bazooka Joe]

13 hours ago, Cristored said:

We won’t, il be banned in the morning.

Perish the thought.

You're getting banned in the morning, banned in the morning, banned in the morning . . .

Edited November 12, 2023 by Bazooka Joe

[Red-Robbo]

2 hours ago, BigTone said:

Too early to comment IMO

Very much so, and if the game was dull and the initial set-up didn't work, that will have been as important for Manning to see than if we'd slaughtered them.

This is ever the problem with changing managers mid-season: unless the departing figure was disliked or disrespected by the team - which Nigel wasn't - the new guy will take a while to get a feel for how the side ticks. 

[ray savino]

1 hour ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I think one interesting aspect of management that Manning will have to consider is how the players will transition from what seems to be a very different style of communication/man management.

From what we've seen as Manning, he's clearly a very different character to Pearson. He's easily our most introverted manager since SO'D and I can't imagine he's someone who rants and raves at his players.

I've met Pearson and Fleming in the company of a few players and in that context, it's very easy to see who is the boss. Pearson is exactly as he comes across in interviews - confident, gregarious and commands the room. Fleming is similar and he's deceptively physically imposing. Pearson is clearly pretty old school, and the relationship he had with the players felt similar to that of a popular (yet scary) headmaster with his pupils or a colonel and a platoon of soldiers.

Compare that to Manning, who's not only a very different style of communicator, but also a fair bit younger.. and it'll be interesting to see how the players react to this. You'd think for most pros that wouldn't be an issue, but we have a number of the first-team squad where this will be only the second first-team manager they've played under. Inevitably this will take a bit of time.

This isn't necessarily a criticism of Manning, as maybe the players will prefer his style; but will be interesting to see.

Think this is a very important point. Not saying one is good, the other is poor. But they appear very different in personalities and delivery. In any walk of life this will take some adjustment. I also don’t think it is totally down to age or type of football philosophy either although has some influence. If you look at the ultimate footballing coach in Pep, he is very demonstrative, passionate as is Klopp, Bielsa and indeed so is Corberan. On the other hand, the likes of Potter came over to me as more reserved, controlled. Howe seems quite calm, but over the years his personna appears mor confident with a few more displays of passion.

Pearson gained authority through his reputation, personna, experience, etc. That didn’t always manifest itself through football style or results but undoubtedly there appeared a team spirit and effort. Manning seems a little awkward but ultimately will gain authority, confidence and professional respect as players see his methods reaping positive results. I think it will take time in reality. I’ve got to be honest what I’ve seen of his interviews so far doesn’t particularly fire me up much. Not that he doesn’t make decent points, just all feels a bit bland. However, I really won’t give a toss if his slightly bland corporate tone translates into success and excitement on the field. If that were to be the case, I’ll be more than happy to let his team do the talking on the field.

I want him to build on the foundations set by NP but we’re going to have to give him time and a fair crack of the whip.

 

 

[ExiledAjax]

41 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

To also add, TV money rises by a few million next season.

Depending in our budget, we can surely add that to the pot along with any savings from departures or profit on sales.

"What football makes, football fan spend".

Now I'd rather it had gone to NP but we are where we are.

But the other 23 teams get the same raise in tv money, so it doesn't do anything to affect our competitiveness within the division.

It might make us more able to compete in the international transfer market, against say...a french Ligue 2 side. 

But because Preston, Hull and all our other peers get the same raise, it is unlikely to make us more likely to finish higher up.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, ExiledAjax said:

But the other 23 teams get the same raise in tv money, so it doesn't do anything to affect our competitiveness within the division.

It might make us more able to compete in the international transfer market, against say...a french Ligue 2 side. 

But because Preston, Hull and all our other peers get the same raise, it is unlikely to make us more likely to finish higher up.

Some @Spreadsheet Boy said have already been spending a chunk of if it before it arrives. We also have more headroom subject to SL than a lot, should we choose to use it.

[Harry]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

To also add, TV money rises by a few million next season.

Depending in our budget, we can surely add that to the pot along with any savings from departures or profit on sales.

"What football makes, football fan spend".

Now I'd rather it had gone to NP but we are where we are.

That particular rising tide will lift all boats 

[Mr Popodopolous]

10 minutes ago, Harry said:

That particular rising tide will lift all boats 

It will but some are already spending it ahead of receipt according to reports.

[Open End Numb Legs]

When a new broom comes in it can't sweep in the same direction as the old one so I would guess at least 10 games before we can judge Manning.

Just walking in the room and talking a good game at training won't cut it. He will need to earn his stripes with analysis, half time talks and tactics that actually gets results so that the squad really believe in him.

He deserves a decent time to do that, hence 10 games minimum. Could fly, could crash.

[ExiledAjax]

50 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Some @Spreadsheet Boy said have already been spending a chunk of if it before it arrives. We also have more headroom subject to SL than a lot, should we choose to use it.

But if true that's an advantage derived from our financial strategy rather than the increase in cash received.