Transition

[bcfc01]

Just now, Ska Junkie said:

Would Nige have told Dickie not to do that?

Very odd if he did.

Dunno.

Just saying it was very noticeable yesterday and more or less the first time I've seen him do that on a consistent basis.

[Sir Geoff]

15 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

We're you all in the toilet when the SS was singing Jon Lansdown what a manual manipulator? And same again Vs Wednesday? 

Most exciting game for several seasons? 

What about Plymouth this season? Stoke this season? Oxford this season? And I can provide plenty from last season too if you want me to? 

Sorry but it seems you only want to see and hear things that suit your argument. 

 

Boro H last season was better than this season imo.

[W-S-M Seagull]

11 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

Dunno.

Just saying it was very noticeable yesterday and more or less the first time I've seen him do that on a consistent basis.

Both Atkinson and Dickie were given instructions by NP to bring the ball forward when able to.

[ashton_fan]

I thought we played a much higher line defensively, Boro did the same which compressed the play into the midfield, especially in the first half which is partly why there weren't many attempts on goal.

It will be interesting to see how we fare at Southampton. I won't judge Manning untill he's had 10 games in charge then we should have an idea how things will pan out.

[Ska Junkie]

9 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Both Atkinson and Dickie were given instructions by NP to bring the ball forward when able to.

Fair comment but it was certainly more noticeable yesterday IMHO as said by BCFC01.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Ska Junkie

[Bar BS3]

1 hour ago, Sir Geoff said:

We did. It's not my problem if you couldn't see it.

Then why did we struggle to get more than a handful of back to back victories throughout his tenure..?

Why was almost every positive performance followed up by the same old rubbish..?

What was our home form so abysmal during his tenure.?

Why were we utterly inconsistent over the 2.5 years that he was in charge - that doesn't come of having a settled game plan & shape that gets the best out of the players. 

 

[Sir Geoff]

4 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

Then why did we struggle to get more than a handful of back to back victories throughout his tenure..?

Why was almost every positive performance followed up by the same old rubbish..?

What was our home form so abysmal during his tenure.?

Why were we utterly inconsistent over the 2.5 years that he was in charge - that doesn't come of having a settled game plan & shape that gets the best out of the players. 

 

You said we didn't have a consistent game plan. We did. It took 2 years to evolve via moving players on etc and couldn't always be executed due to injuries (Sykes having to play RB for example), but we had a plan and a way of playing.

[Bar BS3]

1 minute ago, Sir Geoff said:

You said we didn't have a consistent game plan. We did. It took 2 years to evolve via moving players on etc and couldn't always be executed due to injuries (Sykes having to play RB for example), but we had a plan and a way of playing.

I don't think we did. 

Perhaps moreso away from home - but not generally.

We often relied on something out of the ordinary from an individual, rather than looking like we had any real tactic. 

When we shored things up defensively (eventually) it was to the detriment of almost any attacking flair or purpose.

I can only think that the game plan you refer too was hitting teams on the counter - which was fine when it worked - but our goals had dried up almost completely by the time he left & watching us was generally drab.

[Charlie BCFC]

23 hours ago, BCFC Rich said:

It's a strange phase for the club. Normally win, lose, or draw there would be multiple threads about who was MOM, who was to blame, what tactics we got wrong etc. But right now it's just a little flat. I think that was reflected in the atmosphere for long periods of the game today, even when winning.

I think it's a general feeling of sourness at how NP left. Fans who didn't want that are not wanting to be too enthusiastic about a really good win. Fans who wanted the change are not wanting to be shouted down.  

Ultimately we should be singing the praises, Dickie was fantastic again, and apart from a crazy 10/15 in the second half, we are defensively really strong. That's something NP gave us. I love that 1st half we controlled possession and took our chances. I love that second half we did what so many clubs do to us - challenged Boro to break us down! And we stood strong and looked dangerous on the break. I also love that conceding corners is no longer a huge stress, we are so solid at defending set pieces. 

There are good signs of some of LM's influence and more importantly signs that we can build on what NP put in place.

This has really annoyed me in recent weeks, a lot of people were annoyed (fairly in my view) but we have to move on and get behind the new manager. We're also unbeaten since he’s gone with 7 points out of 9, so let’s atleast give it a chance

[W-S-M Seagull]

20 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

I don't think we did. 

Perhaps moreso away from home - but not generally.

We often relied on something out of the ordinary from an individual, rather than looking like we had any real tactic. 

When we shored things up defensively (eventually) it was to the detriment of almost any attacking flair or purpose.

I can only think that the game plan you refer too was hitting teams on the counter - which was fine when it worked - but our goals had dried up almost completely by the time he left & watching us was generally drab.

You're not providing the full picture tho. 

His last 5 games included a game against Cardiff where we barely had 11 fit first team players. 

We lost narrowly to a very good Ipswich team. 

Scored against Coventry and won. 

Lost to Leeds and beat Rotherham.

So I'm not sure it's correct to say goals had dried up. Just the circumstances and the level of the teams we were playing.

The previous 5 to that we scored 8.

 

 

[sh1t_ref_again]

Interesting to try and see the difference in play between NP and LM, it's early days and changes are minimal.

I don't get or agree with how bad we were in the 1st half comnents and criticism and about passing between the cb's. Under NP we did the same passing across the back and then try to hit balls into the channels or long diagonals to try and use Bell or Skyes pace. We seemed yesterday, to try and use Bell coming inside and playing a 1, 2 with Dickie to try and open up passing lanes, which resulted in not giving the ball away so cheaply. The 1st part of the 1st half, James was a passenger playing more along side TGH, but got more into the game later. Might be interesting to see Nailsmith alongside TGH.

For all the negatively about our 1st half, we were playing the form team and looking at there fans comments saying we deserved the win.

Good battling performance, at one time once back to 2-2, we would have lost it.

 

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, richwwtk said:

That is all reasonable, though I would say that I don't think any mistakes have been repeated here, it was just a case of they felt NP had done his job and it was time to move on. It wasn't handled very well I agree, but I think that comes down to more of a clash of personalities and the Lansdown's not getting on particularly well with Nige.

I have met Brian Tinnion a few times, and whilst I will keep my thoughts private regards comments elsewhere about how bright he is, he is football through and through and has the best interests of this club at heart.

 

I don’t have the baggage with Tins that some have…I wasn’t following City as much in the end of Wilson / start of Tins area, nor did I have the baggage with LJ’s playing days and nepotism, etc…so I tend to treat as I find.

What he has done is put himself more under the microscope recently with what he’s done and said.

2 hours ago, Ska Junkie said:

Would Nige have told Dickie not to do that?

Very odd if he did.

Think there is a definite case of some fans looking for stuff that was already happening.  The Dickie example is a case in point.  He was bringing the ball forward under Nige and Flem (one game) all season, but because we have a new manager it’s being highlighted as “look at the change he’s made to Dickie”.

Dickie made 3 progressive runs and 2 dribbles yesterday.

Last week he made 0 and 1 respectively.

Against Cardiff it was 2 and 2.

Against Birmingham earlier this season it was 4 and 0.

++++++

Similarly a lot made of High Press yesterday, but to me it felt more like blocking than pressing (said that in my response to Silvio last night).  The numbers bear that out.  Besides Leicester (a) who were quality for large parts of the game, yesterday was the most passes we’ve allowed an opponent (without a defensive action) all season.  Hull (a) was the next worst.

However, when I was summarising Manning’s press at Oxford I said then that they don’t press hard, actually allow their opponents more passes than all bar two teams in Lg1, however their high turnovers were disproportionately good, pointing to a team that knows when to press, and when not too.

And I think that is what we will see over time.  We won’t gegen-press though.  I referred to Hull (a) above because that was probably the one game this season under Nige where we got our press all wrong (opening 20 mins) and we got picked off.

There was an element of trying to play a higher back line, when their keeper had it….but again that is little different to how we did it under Nige.  Basically keeping decent distances between our ball and back line.

But for me what was good was when we did pinch it, we threatened off of it.

+++++++

Plenty more to watch and conclude over the coming months to see what are one-offs, what are the standards, etc.

 

 

[Bar BS3]

6 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

You're not providing the full picture tho. 

His last 5 games included a game against Cardiff where we barely had 11 fit first team players. 

We lost narrowly to a very good Ipswich team. 

Scored against Coventry and won. 

Lost to Leeds and beat Rotherham.

So I'm not sure it's correct to say goals had dried up. Just the circumstances and the level of the teams we were playing.

The previous 5 to that we scored 8.

 

 

We had scored 15 goals in 14 league games. That is pretty dire.

Moreso was the lack of goal scoring chances. Our shot stats were often poor.

Of the games you mention - Cardiff, yes - utterly decimated by injuries.

Ipswich, we were unfortunate to lose.

Coventry we were fortunate to win.

Leeds I don't know much about, but was almost inevitable we'd lose.

Rotherham we were dreadful & TC saved us with 2 outstanding finishes.

Bar Plymouth, we hadn't really looked convincing all season.

Millwall was decent enough, without really looking much of a threat.

It was just all pretty turgid & we'd become satisfied with not getting battered due to sheer hard work.

I've always agreed that the timing seemed odd, with the injuries as bad as they were - but I've no issue with the decision to replace him whatsoever. It's been drab generally. Only time will tell if he wasn't getting the best out players - I've always been of the opinion that we should be better than he had us - let's see how the season pans out & if there was any merit to that view.

Then let's see what LM changes over the summer, when he's had a proper chance to look & assess what he's got here & what he things needs adding/changing.

It will be the end of next season that a fair comparison can be drawn, imho. 

 

[Davefevs]

14 minutes ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

Interesting to try and see the difference in play between NP and LM, it's early days and changes are minimal.

I don't get or agree with how bad we were in the 1st half comnents and criticism and about passing between the cb's. Under NP we did the same passing across the back and then try to hit balls into the channels or long diagonals to try and use Bell or Skyes pace. We seemed yesterday, to try and use Bell coming inside and playing a 1, 2 with Dickie to try and open up passing lanes, which resulted in not giving the ball away so cheaply. The 1st part of the 1st half, James was a passenger playing more along side TGH, but got more into the game later. Might be interesting to see Nailsmith alongside TGH.

For all the negatively about our 1st half, we were playing the form team and looking at there fans comments saying we deserved the win.

Good battling performance, at one time once back to 2-2, we would have lost it.

 

Re Matty James, besides the Coventry win a few games back, that is the least number of “actions” he has made in a game since Rotherham (a)

Rotherham (a) last season!

It might’ve been a one-off, where Howson and Hackney did a good job on him.  But it’s another little thing to watch over the coming games.

 

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

We had scored 15 goals in 14 league games. That is pretty dire.

Moreso was the lack of goal scoring chances. Our shot stats were often poor.

Of the games you mention - Cardiff, yes - utterly decimated by injuries.

Ipswich, we were unfortunate to lose.

Coventry we were fortunate to win.

Leeds I don't know much about, but was almost inevitable we'd lose.

Rotherham we were dreadful & TC saved us with 2 outstanding finishes.

Bar Plymouth, we hadn't really looked convincing all season.

Millwall was decent enough, without really looking much of a threat.

It was just all pretty turgid & we'd become satisfied with not getting battered due to sheer hard work.

I've always agreed that the timing seemed odd, with the injuries as bad as they were - but I've no issue with the decision to replace him whatsoever. It's been drab generally. Only time will tell if he wasn't getting the best out players - I've always been of the opinion that we should be better than he had us - let's see how the season pans out & if there was any merit to that view.

Then let's see what LM changes over the summer, when he's had a proper chance to look & assess what he's got here & what he things needs adding/changing.

It will be the end of next season that a fair comparison can be drawn, imho. 

 

What about Hull and Swansea, or Stoke (where we somehow contrived to lose), we played some fantastic football in those.  For a mid-table side with mid-table resources, we got a mix of performances.  It felt far from turgid as an overall view from what I saw, but all about opinions.

[bcfc01]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I don’t have the baggage with Tins that some have…I wasn’t following City as much in the end of Wilson / start of Tins area, nor did I have the baggage with LJ’s playing days and nepotism, etc…so I tend to treat as I find.

What he has done is put himself more under the microscope recently with what he’s done and said.

Think there is a definite case of some fans looking for stuff that was already happening.  The Dickie example is a case in point.  He was bringing the ball forward under Nige and Flem (one game) all season, but because we have a new manager it’s being highlighted as “look at the change he’s made to Dickie”.

Dickie made 3 progressive runs and 2 dribbles yesterday.

Last week he made 0 and 1 respectively.

Against Cardiff it was 2 and 2.

Against Birmingham earlier this season it was 4 and 0.

++++++

Similarly a lot made of High Press yesterday, but to me it felt more like blocking than pressing (said that in my response to Silvio last night).  The numbers bear that out.  Besides Leicester (a) who were quality for large parts of the game, yesterday was the most passes we’ve allowed an opponent (without a defensive action) all season.  Hull (a) was the next worst.

However, when I was summarising Manning’s press at Oxford I said then that they don’t press hard, actually allow their opponents more passes than all bar two teams in Lg1, however their high turnovers were disproportionately good, pointing to a team that knows when to press, and when not too.

And I think that is what we will see over time.  We won’t gegen-press though.  I referred to Hull (a) above because that was probably the one game this season under Nige where we got our press all wrong (opening 20 mins) and we got picked off.

There was an element of trying to play a higher back line, when their keeper had it….but again that is little different to how we did it under Nige.  Basically keeping decent distances between our ball and back line.

But for me what was good was when we did pinch it, we threatened off of it.

+++++++

Plenty more to watch and conclude over the coming months to see what are one-offs, what are the standards, etc.

 

 

I honestly cannot remember a game which stood out as Dickie playing out from the back as he did first half yesterday, getting towards and over the half way line consistently (seemed more than 3 times imo) or just taking the ball out and passing forward. I didn't consistently see that under NP and certainly not in his latter stages. It was a stand out change for me. The caveat being that later in the game yesterday we were under the cosh earlier in the second half and went longer as Boro went higher.

 

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

I honestly cannot remember a game which stood out as Dickie playing out from the back as he did first half yesterday, getting towards and over the half way line consistently (seemed more than 3 times imo) or just taking the ball out and passing forward. I didn't consistently see that under NP and certainly not in his latter stages. It was a stand out change for me. The caveat being that later in the game yesterday we were under the cosh earlier in the second half and went longer as Boro went higher.

 

It’s an age thing…comes to us all.

Yeah, thats why I added the progressive runs and dribbles (a progressive run where an opponent engages him) together.  So 5 in total.

If POTY was just player of the season so far, I think Dickie would win it by a good length!

[Bar BS3]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

What about Hull and Swansea, or Stoke (where we somehow contrived to lose), we played some fantastic football in those.  For a mid-table side with mid-table resources, we got a mix of performances.  It felt far from turgid as an overall view from what I saw, but all about opinions.

There were exceptions, of course - it was the total lack of any consistency that was most frustrating - as demonstrated by the appalling stats for back to back wins (lack of)

I think what you say highlights the point - we ARE capable of it, but never produced it often enough.

I've no idea if that might improve with fresh ideas & leadership - it will be fascinating to see. 

[bcfc01]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

It’s an age thing…comes to us all.

Yeah, thats why I added the progressive runs and dribbles (a progressive run where an opponent engages him) together.  So 5 in total.

If POTY was just player of the season so far, I think Dickie would win it by a good length!

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Bar BS3 said:

There were exceptions, of course - it was the total lack of any consistency that was most frustrating - as demonstrated by the appalling stats for back to back wins (lack of)

I think what you say highlights the point - we ARE capable of it, but never produced it often enough.

I've no idea if that might improve with fresh ideas & leadership - it will be fascinating to see. 

And in the flip, never went in appalling losing runs either!  Yin and Yang as an ex-manager once used.

I guess the inconsistency is kinda why they are at Bristol City.  We have no bad players on their day, it’s getting them all to have a good day as often as possible.  

[redkev]

2 hours ago, ashton_fan said:

I thought we played a much higher line defensively, Boro did the same which compressed the play into the midfield, especially in the first half which is partly why there weren't many attempts on goal.

It will be interesting to see how we fare at Southampton. I won't judge Manning untill he's had 10 games in charge then we should have an idea how things will pan out.

10 mins like some people or 10 games 

[bcfc01]

Just now, Davefevs said:

And in the flip, never went in appalling losing runs either!  Yin and Yang as an ex-manager once used.

I guess the inconsistency is kinda why they are at Bristol City.  We have no bad players on their day, it’s getting them all to have a good day as often as possible.  

Bit like the Eric Morcombe gag;

"we have all the right players, but not necessarily in form at the same time"

[Gimme Shelton]

22 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I don’t have the baggage with Tins that some have…I wasn’t following City as much in the end of Wilson / start of Tins area, nor did I have the baggage with LJ’s playing days and nepotism, etc…so I tend to treat as I find.

What he has done is put himself more under the microscope recently with what he’s done and said.

Think there is a definite case of some fans looking for stuff that was already happening.  The Dickie example is a case in point.  He was bringing the ball forward under Nige and Flem (one game) all season, but because we have a new manager it’s being highlighted as “look at the change he’s made to Dickie”.

Dickie made 3 progressive runs and 2 dribbles yesterday.

Last week he made 0 and 1 respectively.

Against Cardiff it was 2 and 2.

Against Birmingham earlier this season it was 4 and 0.

++++++

Similarly a lot made of High Press yesterday, but to me it felt more like blocking than pressing (said that in my response to Silvio last night).  The numbers bear that out.  Besides Leicester (a) who were quality for large parts of the game, yesterday was the most passes we’ve allowed an opponent (without a defensive action) all season.  Hull (a) was the next worst.

However, when I was summarising Manning’s press at Oxford I said then that they don’t press hard, actually allow their opponents more passes than all bar two teams in Lg1, however their high turnovers were disproportionately good, pointing to a team that knows when to press, and when not too.

And I think that is what we will see over time.  We won’t gegen-press though.  I referred to Hull (a) above because that was probably the one game this season under Nige where we got our press all wrong (opening 20 mins) and we got picked off.

There was an element of trying to play a higher back line, when their keeper had it….but again that is little different to how we did it under Nige.  Basically keeping decent distances between our ball and back line.

But for me what was good was when we did pinch it, we threatened off of it.

+++++++

Plenty more to watch and conclude over the coming months to see what are one-offs, what are the standards, etc.

 

 

My impression of Saturday's press was that we backed off the two centre Half's and waited for them to pass to the wings before trying to bottle them up. Well that's what I thought they were doing anyway! 

As for James,I can't remember a game where I noticed him so little, hopefully a one off or a deliberate plan by Boro?

[Davefevs]

27 minutes ago, Gimme Shelton said:

My impression of Saturday's press was that we backed off the two centre Half's and waited for them to pass to the wings before trying to bottle them up. Well that's what I thought they were doing anyway

I agree, but I’ve heard and read lots of “look at how we press high now under Manning” when we haven’t.

Edited November 27, 2023 by Davefevs

[bcfc01]

For those, like me, wondering what PPDA is;

https://www.coachesvoice.com/cv/ppda-explained-passes-per-defensive-action/

[tsgujdybh]

On 25/11/2023 at 19:30, W-S-M Seagull said:

Nah. Today was like a pre season friendly atmosphere. 

To be honest, for most of the first half especially, anyone who didn't know better could easily have mistaken it for a friendly/exhibition match!!! 

The atmosphere was muted, both teams looked like they were doing nothing more than simply going through the motions - with everything happening at little more than walking pace.  I can't remember seeing a meaningful, competitive match with two sides showing so little intensity.  On numerous occasions the goalkeeper or a defender from either side received a pass back and was able to stand still, with the ball at their feet, for a good 5-10 seconds totally unchallenged.  There seemed to be no pressing at all from either side. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, tsgujdybh said:

To be honest, for most of the first half especially, anyone who didn't know better could easily have mistaken it for a friendly/exhibition match!!! 

The atmosphere was muted, both teams looked like they were doing nothing more than simply going through the motions - with everything happening at little more than walking pace.  I can't remember seeing a meaningful, competitive match with two sides showing so little intensity.  On numerous occasions the goalkeeper or a defender from either side received a pass back and was able to stand still, with the ball at their feet, for a good 5-10 seconds totally unchallenged.  There seemed to be no pressing at all from either side. 

It felt a bit sleepy, even pre game as you say. A distinct lack of enthusiasm in the air. Not all game but first 30, 35 mins definitely.