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This situation is entirely self-inflicted.


Redland

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31 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

So are you saying that all the “differences” aren’t positive differences then?

I’m being facetious, because I’m mainly reading it’s all positive but it’s just a case of being patient / it will take time, etc!! 😉

FWIW I talked about our “high press” in the week and that it’s been anything but a high press so far.  I don’t have a problem with blocking, but it shows the bollox rhetoric we are asked to swallow as fans - “front foot high press”.

Its just data, but our 5 worst pressing games this season from a numbers point of view are:

Leicester 27.58 passes allowed

Norwich City 25.38

Southampton 22.27

Middlesbrough 16.74

Hull City 16.13

~~~~~~

Avg. 13.58

Even under Nige we weren’t really high pressing either, but this is an area we need to be careful.  Because I think it’s taking some intensity out of the game, and leading to less transition, and transition we are pretty good at!

 

 

I'm trying to stay "Positive" as it is early days of course, but I'm missing the intensity somewhat of our midfield and defence.

Maybe this isn't born out through the stats. But the harassing of the midfield (Knight in particular) and aggressiveness of the defence seems to have waned in the last 3 games (discounting QPR as only a couple of days in the job).

From an early perspective we seem to be playing a more patient "Let's not chase the ball, lets wait to get it back and then develop from there " approach. I think offensively we are actually creating more (sadly forwards, Conway is particular are mis firing at the moment). It's just a bit patient build up, with what feels like unnecessary passing at times (again yesterday when Sykes lost the ball in the middle). It reminds me of Swansea under Martin, although they had arguably players better suited to the process.

It's the slow, slow, quick approach that fans are going to have to get their heads around. It leads to accusations of "this is boring", during the first half yesterday while we actually had 10 shots (5 on target). Difficult to feel uplifted by this technical feel to the football at times, it reminds me of course of how Oxford played against us in the cup for periods. Very unlikely at our level, even less so that you can keep it up for large periods of time. Hence the drop offs during the game in intensity and endeavour. That's when certain players are guilty of switching off IMHO.

 

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1 hour ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I think the boos were because we had just watched 100 minutes of utter total dross. 

They need to move on? Maybe Manning himself needs to find a way of connecting with these players and getting the best out of them, just like how Nige did. 

Do you think it was 100% dross all the time?

First half, some clever movement, working of the space and 10 shots on goal (5 on target). Arguably we could (and should) have been 2 or 3-0 up (I know they hit the post and Barnes missed a good chance as well).

Yes, there were periods of play that were pedestrian and not entertaining, but I fail to see that the entire game (even the good goal that Knight scored ) were "utter total dross"?

 

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26 minutes ago, NcnsBcfc said:

I'm trying to stay "Positive" as it is early days of course, but I'm missing the intensity somewhat of our midfield and defence.

Maybe this isn't born out through the stats.

No, the opposite…I’m saying it is borne out in the stats….we are “allowing” our opponents to pass it around more, we aren’t “high pressing”.  We are “blocking”.

I’m actually not trying to reach conclusions on this….see my next comment.

But the harassing of the midfield (Knight in particular) and aggressiveness of the defence seems to have waned in the last 3 games (discounting QPR as only a couple of days in the job).

From an early perspective we seem to be playing a more patient "Let's not chase the ball, lets wait to get it back and then develop from there " approach.

That’s the bit I’m waiting to conclude.  Are we sitting off / blocking, waiting for the right trigger (hopefully), or are we just sitting off (hopefully not - because that isn’t what we were sold!

From the bits I picked up from his Oxford style they didn’t intensively press either, they waited to pick off but were effective in their execution.  I’m hoping that is the case with LM and City.

I will have a better idea over more games.

I think offensively we are actually creating more (sadly forwards, Conway is particular are mis firing at the moment). It's just a bit patient build up, with what feels like unnecessary passing at times (again yesterday when Sykes lost the ball in the middle). It reminds me of Swansea under Martin, although they had arguably players better suited to the process.

I have no problems with a more patient approach.  But if it is coupled with allowing our opponents a patient approach, then I think some fans are gonna be hugely “turned off”.  Results will dictate whether they “stick with it” though.  We are a fickle bunch who in the main accept successful results whatever the performance.

It's the slow, slow, quick approach that fans are going to have to get their heads around. It leads to accusations of "this is boring", during the first half yesterday while we actually had 10 shots (5 on target).

Yep, not seen any of the game yet, but that looks positive.

Difficult to feel uplifted by this technical feel to the football at times, it reminds me of course of how Oxford played against us in the cup for periods. Very unlikely at our level, even less so that you can keep it up for large periods of time. Hence the drop offs during the game in intensity and endeavour. That's when certain players are guilty of switching off IMHO.

To quote Nige - the best defenders know how to defend when we have the ball, ie they don’t get caught when we turnover possession.  There was a bit on Bournemouth on Monday Night Football last week about exactly that.  A Bournemouth player played a shitty, hopeful ball forward, but his first reaction was to position himself for where the opposing defender might head it next.  He got in front of him man, won the loose ball, and started a better attack.

 

⬆️⬆️⬆️

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The irony is, Possession football can give you a greater platform to press and intensely.

The whole resting in possession thing, if you are fairly passive that conserves energy to go at the opposition when you lose it- and given how fit the side are, how committed it would be a useful fit.

Passivity out of possession, not so much. Moving the ball too slowly ditto.

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2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I have no problems with a more patient approach.  But if it is coupled with allowing our opponents a patient approach, then I think some fans are gonna be hugely “turned off”.  Results will dictate whether they “stick with it” though.  We are a fickle bunch who in the main accept successful results whatever the performance.

Picked this comment out , because , as when any side appoints a manager or head coach who looks to be patient in build up and possession based (IF that’s what LM is aspiring to do) then , fine , but you’d better start getting results too in the not too distant , as fans not liking the results are normally quicker and stronger to turn if it comes with patient football

( Im not slating a patient approach , or LM - Just highlighting how the vast vast majority of fans have historically , at any club , have , and will react)

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14 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

⬆️⬆️⬆️

Thanks @Davefevs, agree with your points there.

I think in possession we appear to be patient and working to a pattern of play. The issue for me (although early doors) is out of possession. The aggressive "Front foot" nonsense clearly isn't being played in a defensive transition. Leading to games meandering for long periods of time, hence the "this is boring" element.

Alongside our build up play, we need an aggression and determination to win the ball and get it back from the opposition. That's what gets people excited "intent". Manning seems like a quiet, thoughtful man in his press interviews so far. That is kind of how this team is playing. Other than the Tanner yellow card i don't remember a bad challenge from us yesterday.

The stats i have say a total of 4 fouls during the entire game ( 2 each) with City never having an offside against us??? Hardly demonstrating a willingness to get the ball back does it?

The balance needs to be better between patient football and showing as I say the aggressive intent to win the game. Passiveness just sends people to sleep. 

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For me now bottom line is we are where we are. I’m not going to stop supporting City despite the clumsy handling of this whole situation. 

IMHO I think NP sorted a lot of shit out with a degree of honesty and frankness. He set up a blank canvas. The thing is he was never going to get a contract renewal. Long term he was not the type of personality that the owners appear to want to work with.

With that in mind the fact he has gone now is giving Manning the fairly unique opportunity to have a good two thirds of a season to put in place the things he wants to start putting in place to play his football, without fire fighting relegation with a reasonable squad to build upon, and without the immediate impending restrictions of an FFP fine, etc. This also means he can be part of the planning for summer window rather than be starting blind in the summer.

Forget top six PR talk, that was just clumsy cover for why the owners wanted rid of NP. It will take some time, new player additions and results for the team to go from passing around the back to more incisive exciting possession based football. It doesn’t have to be boring, but until the team get familiar, comfortable, braver, confident and competent with it, we are in form some very patchy performances.

My biggest frustration is that this is not a more seemless progression from NP, but a fair sized departure. And that looks likely to take time again. So I guess I see the fact that LM has a lot of this season to experiment, build foundations of his style/vision, then I’m prepared to be patient to see a marked improvement by the time we get to the beginning of next season.

I actually think we should be aiming for at least top ten and a developing squad with a settled and effective way of playing by the end of this season.

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53 minutes ago, NcnsBcfc said:

Do you think it was 100% dross all the time?

 

First half, some clever movement, working of the space and 10 shots on goal (5 on target). Arguably we could (and should) have been 2 or 3-0 up (I know they hit the post and Barnes missed a good chance as well).

 

Yes, there were periods of play that were pedestrian and not entertaining, but I fail to see that the entire game (even the good goal that Knight scored ) were "utter total dross"?

 

 

 

 

Even when we scored the celebrations were quite muted. We had a little spell where we got a few shots away but nothing that really troubled the keeper. 

This "we should have been 2 up" talk is already getting quite boring and tedious because its complete rubbish. Norwich should have been 1 up with the Barnes 1 on 1. We didn't have any clear cut chances. A few half chances and pot shots doesn't mean we should have been 2 or r nil up. 

So yes it was total and utter dross imo. 

Don't think I got out of my seat once in the second half. However you try and dress it up, it was crap against a crap team. 

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4 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Even when we scored the celebrations were quite muted. We had a little spell where we got a few shots away but nothing that really troubled the keeper. 

This "we should have been 2 up" talk is already getting quite boring and tedious because its complete rubbish. Norwich should have been 1 up with the Barnes 1 on 1. We didn't have any clear cut chances. A few half chances and pot shots doesn't mean we should have been 2 or r nil up. 

So yes it was total and utter dross imo. 

Don't think I got out of my seat once in the second half. However you try and dress it up, it was crap against a crap team. 

Ok, respect your opinion.

For me the TGH shot (good save). Sykes shot that should have been on target from excellent link up play, good header from knight that bought a save and the movement from Conway to the Sykes through ball that bought another save were all in a 15-20 min period in and around the goal in the 1st half.

Yes there were periods of boredom, particularly in the 2nd half after their equaliser when they sat back and we seemed to lack attacking intent (not helped by the subs that came on). But I wouldn't say it was complete dross throughout the game.

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33 minutes ago, ray savino said:

For me now bottom line is we are where we are. I’m not going to stop supporting City despite the clumsy handling of this whole situation. 

IMHO I think NP sorted a lot of shit out with a degree of honesty and frankness. He set up a blank canvas. The thing is he was never going to get a contract renewal. Long term he was not the type of personality that the owners appear to want to work with.

With that in mind the fact he has gone now is giving Manning the fairly unique opportunity to have a good two thirds of a season to put in place the things he wants to start putting in place to play his football, without fire fighting relegation with a reasonable squad to build upon, and without the immediate impending restrictions of an FFP fine, etc. This also means he can be part of the planning for summer window rather than be starting blind in the summer.

Forget top six PR talk, that was just clumsy cover for why the owners wanted rid of NP. It will take some time, new player additions and results for the team to go from passing around the back to more incisive exciting possession based football. It doesn’t have to be boring, but until the team get familiar, comfortable, braver, confident and competent with it, we are in form some very patchy performances.

My biggest frustration is that this is not a more seemless progression from NP, but a fair sized departure. And that looks likely to take time again. So I guess I see the fact that LM has a lot of this season to experiment, build foundations of his style/vision, then I’m prepared to be patient to see a marked improvement by the time we get to the beginning of next season.

I actually think we should be aiming for at least top ten and a developing squad with a settled and effective way of playing by the end of this season.

Good sensible post 👏🏼

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The problem we've got at the moment is that when NP was sacked we weren't broken on the pitch. I mean by that, the team were playing pretty well, they had a plan and they players knew what they were required to do. We were by no means the best side in the division but we'd had narrow losses against the teams who were, had a pretty horrible injury list but remained relatively competitive and everyone could see we were moving in the right direction.

Against the backdrop of all of that we've now changed managers. The new man hasn't been brought in to fix an issue but to change a playing style. That's going to be far more difficult and what we're seeing in the short term is a drop off in some areas of our play.

Imagine if you've been doing a task for a long while, like driving a certain route to work for example. You start to do it without thinking. Then one day there are road works on your normal route so you've got to follow a diversion. Now you have to think about where you're going. The normal task of driving your car becomes a bit harder because you've got to work out the new route as well as driving so even the basics seem a little more difficult.

This is exactly where we are at. LM has come in and is changing things from something that was working relatively well to somethng different (and hopefully better). This transition is going to take longer than it would if there was a clear and obvious problem with the team. Its been a painful few months and I'm so pissed off with those who made this decision at the top of the club but, if LM is the right man for the job, it will get better and she should see faster progress. If LM was the wrong choice then God help us.

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17 hours ago, Redland said:

Under Nigel Pearson after many difficult years I was genuinely enjoying going to watch City again.

The team and fans seemed united. The players were committed and fighting for the cause and I felt we were moving forward. For the first season in years I was not worried about relegation and felt that with a couple of quality additions we could be aiming for the top six.

I was genuinely shocked when Pearson was sacked and I am sad to say that after 60 years a lot of my enthusiasm for the club drained out of me. Pearson was one of the few managers we have had who has a proven track record including promotion from the Championship. The board then choose to throw it all away and have appointed an inexperienced manager with no Championship experience and already the consequences are plain to see.

For me the tragic thing is that this situation was unnecessary and entirely self-inflicted. Sorry if this is going over some old ground but felt it only fair to let LM have the benefit of his “new manager bounce” before commenting.

A fantastic post that sums up what I feel is the same for many of the "older" followers, no insult intended, I consider myself one of the older ones too haha

I'm not against Manning, I have no ill will towards him and I really hope he manages to get the players he needs to make this system work but Nigel was a far better fit for this club as we're limited by the people running the club and he was the first manager I've seen that's come in, taken a messed up situation, fixed it and done it all with severe limitations in place. Every time the board put a hurdle in the way he managed to hop over it and keep pace which is why they ultimately sacked him the second that they had, what in their eyes, was an opportunity. There was next to no calling for him to be replaced and I honestly cannot remember a manager being sacked in the time I've supported the club which genuinely surprised me and that had such a backlash so quickly.

I think this board has finally lost a lot of fans and whilst we continue to hope Manning and the players do well there is certainly contempt for those at the top, I mean I defended Steve Lansdown for years and years and even I've lost that support for him as he's proven, along with his son, that they are not capable of making the club into a Premier League club, I honestly do not believe I will ever see this club in the top flight unless the Lansdowns sell up and move on but that is not going to happen, at least not with the club being left in a good position. 
The stadium is no longer Bristol Citys, whoever buys the club will have to work around "Bristol Sport" and I just don't see that as a good investment which is why I think SL is struggling to find a buyer.

FOr me the sacking of Pearson was the first clear sign that the board are no longer interested in the football club success, they're in it for their business now, the sports business, us fans mean nothing to them so long as we keep turning up as Jon Lansdown pretty much said and unfortunately he was correct, our fans will keep turning up and paying for this to happen.

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5 minutes ago, Midlands Robin said:

The problem we've got at the moment is that when NP was sacked we weren't broken on the pitch. I mean by that, the team were playing pretty well, they had a plan and they players knew what they were required to do. We were by no means the best side in the division but we'd had narrow losses against the teams who were, had a pretty horrible injury list but remained relatively competitive and everyone could see we were moving in the right direction.

Against the backdrop of all of that we've now changed managers. The new man hasn't been brought in to fix an issue but to change a playing style. That's going to be far more difficult and what we're seeing in the short term is a drop off in some areas of our play.

Imagine if you've been doing a task for a long while, like driving a certain route to work for example. You start to do it without thinking. Then one day there are road works on your normal route so you've got to follow a diversion. Now you have to think about where you're going. The normal task of driving your car becomes a bit harder because you've got to work out the new route as well as driving so even the basics seem a little more difficult.

This is exactly where we are at. LM has come in and is changing things from something that was working relatively well to somethng different (and hopefully better). This transition is going to take longer than it would if there was a clear and obvious problem with the team. Its been a painful few months and I'm so pissed off with those who made this decision at the top of the club but, if LM is the right man for the job, it will get better and she should see faster progress. If LM was the wrong choice then God help us.

I genuinely don't think the board knew what they would be getting with LM. 

Within 5 mins of him being linked with us I had searched Google and had figured out his style and to me it didn't fit with what the board said we were looking for. We don't have the players for that. I think Manning would be an excellent fit for someone like Swansea but not us. We're not set up for his style. 

I think the board were alerted to his availability and acted upon that without properly thinking about it. 

Sticking with your car theme. It's like buying a new car and being fixated on the car you want. But without looking at any of the details such as MPG, 0-60 speed etc and then getting the car and realising it didn't actually fit with what you wanted. 

The board very clear stated they wanted to enhance upon the style we had been playing. Not change the style. They went on record saying "for the 1st time ever, we know what we want"  It just seems like they've changed what they wanted in order to get the man they wanted. I don't think that's a good recruitment strategy. 

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2 minutes ago, Midlands Robin said:

The new man hasn't been brought in to fix an issue but to change a playing style. That's going to be far more difficult and what we're seeing in the short term is a drop off in some areas of our play.

 

3 minutes ago, Midlands Robin said:

This is exactly where we are at. LM has come in and is changing things from something that was working relatively well to somethng different (and hopefully better). This transition is going to take longer than it would if there was a clear and obvious problem with the team. Its been a painful few months and I'm so pissed off with those who made this decision at the top of the club but, if LM is the right man for the job, it will get better and she should see faster progress. If LM was the wrong choice then God help us.

I think this is the reality of where we are. What bothers me is if Tinnion is our Football Technical Director, why had he gone along with NP style for so long, recruiting with that in mind, instead of making recommendations to change style/ Manager philosophy and direction earlier? Surely a technical director should be the club’s expert checks and balances on making sure the football strategy and philosophy of the club has changed. If we had looked at a manager who wanted a high pressing style or counter attack style whatever, then I could have understood that maybe they wanted a maybe younger, fresher recruit who would continue to develop this style that we had allegedly recruited for. Not against a possession based style or whatever style, but what happened to continuity. If there was a desire and club mandate to produce a possession based football team, then why the hell didn’t they recruit a manager/coach with those philosophies at the end of last season or earlier? That’s my frustration with this club. We have flip flopped over managerial directions over the years, so is it any wonder we have got into financial difficulties over the years. What will be interesting is to see how many of this current squad will be kept who are adaptable to the new style we are adopting? If RM manages to do that with this squad then absolute fair play to him, but I can’t help seeing some decent investment in getting more players in to help.

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Why would anyone settle for top ten if we have a top six squad?

I’m prepared to accept that a good squad can be unlucky with injuries and refereeing, but the senior leaders at the club need performance red lines of their own. If we’re outside the top half with a “top six squad” at the end of the season, I expect JL to go.

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27 minutes ago, Spike said:

A fantastic post that sums up what I feel is the same for many of the "older" followers, no insult intended, I consider myself one of the older ones too haha

I'm not against Manning, I have no ill will towards him and I really hope he manages to get the players he needs to make this system work but Nigel was a far better fit for this club as we're limited by the people running the club and he was the first manager I've seen that's come in, taken a messed up situation, fixed it and done it all with severe limitations in place. Every time the board put a hurdle in the way he managed to hop over it and keep pace which is why they ultimately sacked him the second that they had, what in their eyes, was an opportunity. There was next to no calling for him to be replaced and I honestly cannot remember a manager being sacked in the time I've supported the club which genuinely surprised me and that had such a backlash so quickly.

I think this board has finally lost a lot of fans and whilst we continue to hope Manning and the players do well there is certainly contempt for those at the top, I mean I defended Steve Lansdown for years and years and even I've lost that support for him as he's proven, along with his son, that they are not capable of making the club into a Premier League club, I honestly do not believe I will ever see this club in the top flight unless the Lansdowns sell up and move on but that is not going to happen, at least not with the club being left in a good position. 
The stadium is no longer Bristol Citys, whoever buys the club will have to work around "Bristol Sport" and I just don't see that as a good investment which is why I think SL is struggling to find a buyer.

FOr me the sacking of Pearson was the first clear sign that the board are no longer interested in the football club success, they're in it for their business now, the sports business, us fans mean nothing to them so long as we keep turning up as Jon Lansdown pretty much said and unfortunately he was correct, our fans will keep turning up and paying for this to happen.

I agree with a lot of this but do not believe attendances will stay at current level.

Living at a great distance, attending is very costly and I now  won’t make the effort until there is definite hope of seeing a victory at home.  I feel that Manning is back to the only too common phenomenon of mediocre managers we have had over the years.  Nige was a breath of fresh air in that respect.

Utterly disillusioned with the sheer incompetence of JL and BT (a previous manager who wasn’t even mediocre).

Oh dear.

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1 hour ago, NcnsBcfc said:

Thanks @Davefevs, agree with your points there.

I think in possession we appear to be patient and working to a pattern of play. The issue for me (although early doors) is out of possession. The aggressive "Front foot" nonsense clearly isn't being played in a defensive transition. Leading to games meandering for long periods of time, hence the "this is boring" element.

Alongside our build up play, we need an aggression and determination to win the ball and get it back from the opposition. That's what gets people excited "intent". Manning seems like a quiet, thoughtful man in his press interviews so far. That is kind of how this team is playing. Other than the Tanner yellow card i don't remember a bad challenge from us yesterday.

Boom 💥 

I still refer back to Aston Villa (h) a few years back.  1-0 down to a Grealish volley.  Flat as a pancake.  And then Mark Little absolutely clattered Grealish, but winning the ball.  The whole crowd was lifted.

Just like George Tanner last season, two tackles, one after the other, got the crowd going.

The pace of our press under LJ for those halcyon 3 months in 17/18, got the crowd going.

Why?  Because invariably they lead to transition and transition often feels like something is gonna happen.

1 hour ago, ray savino said:

For me now bottom line is we are where we are. I’m not going to stop supporting City despite the clumsy handling of this whole situation. 

IMHO I think NP sorted a lot of shit out with a degree of honesty and frankness. He set up a blank canvas. The thing is he was never going to get a contract renewal. Long term he was not the type of personality that the owners appear to want to work with.

With that in mind the fact he has gone now is giving Manning the fairly unique opportunity to have a good two thirds of a season to put in place the things he wants to start putting in place to play his football, without fire fighting relegation with a reasonable squad to build upon, and without the immediate impending restrictions of an FFP fine, etc. This also means he can be part of the planning for summer window rather than be starting blind in the summer.

Forget top six PR talk, that was just clumsy cover for why the owners wanted rid of NP. It will take some time, new player additions and results for the team to go from passing around the back to more incisive exciting possession based football. It doesn’t have to be boring, but until the team get familiar, comfortable, braver, confident and competent with it, we are in form some very patchy performances.

My biggest frustration is that this is not a more seemless progression from NP, but a fair sized departure. And that looks likely to take time again. So I guess I see the fact that LM has a lot of this season to experiment, build foundations of his style/vision, then I’m prepared to be patient to see a marked improvement by the time we get to the beginning of next season.

I actually think we should be aiming for at least top ten and a developing squad with a settled and effective way of playing by the end of this season.

This is my unfounded worry too.  I don’t think much needed changing, and I hope this is just early days and the tweaks are just tweaks, just that need embedding.

Overall we should not be going backwards over a longer period of games.  The foundations were laid.

So, I’ll continue to watch, but hoping to just see better execution rather than different plan.

50 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I genuinely don't think the board knew what they would be getting with LM. 

Within 5 mins of him being linked with us I had searched Google and had figured out his style and to me it didn't fit with what the board said we were looking for. We don't have the players for that. I think Manning would be an excellent fit for someone like Swansea but not us. We're not set up for his style. 

I think the board were alerted to his availability and acted upon that without properly thinking about it. 

Sticking with your car theme. It's like buying a new car and being fixated on the car you want. But without looking at any of the details such as MPG, 0-60 speed etc and then getting the car and realising it didn't actually fit with what you wanted. 

The board very clear stated they wanted to enhance upon the style we had been playing. Not change the style. They went on record saying "for the 1st time ever, we know what we want"  It just seems like they've changed what they wanted in order to get the man they wanted. I don't think that's a good recruitment strategy. 

I said similar.  But that’s because the utopia of “front foot, high pressing, forward thinking, attacking football” is mainly just a concept, a reality that never surfaced unless you are one of the super-clubs.

43 minutes ago, ray savino said:

 

I think this is the reality of where we are. What bothers me is if Tinnion is our Football Technical Director, why had he gone along with NP style for so long, recruiting with that in mind, instead of making recommendations to change style/ Manager philosophy and direction earlier? Surely a technical director should be the club’s expert checks and balances on making sure the football strategy and philosophy of the club has changed. If we had looked at a manager who wanted a high pressing style or counter attack style whatever, then I could have understood that maybe they wanted a maybe younger, fresher recruit who would continue to develop this style that we had allegedly recruited for. Not against a possession based style or whatever style, but what happened to continuity. If there was a desire and club mandate to produce a possession based football team, then why the hell didn’t they recruit a manager/coach with those philosophies at the end of last season or earlier? That’s my frustration with this club. We have flip flopped over managerial directions over the years, so is it any wonder we have got into financial difficulties over the years. What will be interesting is to see how many of this current squad will be kept who are adaptable to the new style we are adopting? If RM manages to do that with this squad then absolute fair play to him, but I can’t help seeing some decent investment in getting more players in to help.

It’s been a series of contradictions hasn’t it?

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48 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

I agree with a lot of this but do not believe attendances will stay at current level.

Living at a great distance, attending is very costly and I now  won’t make the effort until there is definite hope of seeing a victory at home.  I feel that Manning is back to the only too common phenomenon of mediocre managers we have had over the years.  Nige was a breath of fresh air in that respect.

Utterly disillusioned with the sheer incompetence of JL and BT (a previous manager who wasn’t even mediocre).

Oh dear.

I'm with you on that. Four hour round trip to sit in the cold and be bored to bits watching that. No thanks. 

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3 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

Five points off the play-offs

Five when NP was sacked too, Four when Manning entered ie between the Sheffield Wednesday game under Fleming and QPR away.

Problem is if there is a slow start with a new style etc, and 5 can become 7, 8, 10 pretty quickly and then the side have a mountain to climb.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Boom 💥 

I still refer back to Aston Villa (h) a few years back.  1-0 down to a Grealish volley.  Flat as a pancake.  And then Mark Little absolutely clattered Grealish, but winning the ball.  The whole crowd was lifted.

Just like George Tanner last season, two tackles, one after the other, got the crowd going.

The pace of our press under LJ for those halcyon 3 months in 17/18, got the crowd going.

Why?  Because invariably they lead to transition and transition often feels like something is gonna happen.

This is my unfounded worry too.  I don’t think much needed changing, and I hope this is just early days and the tweaks are just tweaks, just that need embedding.

Overall we should not be going backwards over a longer period of games.  The foundations were laid.

So, I’ll continue to watch, but hoping to just see better execution rather than different plan.

I said similar.  But that’s because the utopia of “front foot, high pressing, forward thinking, attacking football” is mainly just a concept, a reality that never surfaced unless you are one of the super-clubs.

It’s been a series of contradictions hasn’t it?

Even the pressing from out front 3 and Weimann second pressing 'waving his arms about' under NP was entertaining as it put the opposition defence under immediate pressure and often caused unforced errors (Semenyo was particularly good at forcing errors). Since QPR Tommy just stands on the edge of the box watching the keeper or defender in front of him pick any pass they like. (Yes I get that we can then press that pass, but we're not very good at doing that). Not sure we've even won a second ball in the last few games, as everything seems too easy for the opponent on the ball.

We all want a bit of excitement, as you say a crunching tackle, a quick press, just something to get the crowd out of their seats.

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18 hours ago, Dr Balls said:

I think “bounce” is putting it a bit strongly. All the bounce of a punctured beach ball!

And the atmosphere in the ground is terrible because for many fans their heart isn’t in it at the moment. Both the players and supporters seem to be going through the motions, which often happens after a major shock. 

We have a coach who has achieved nothing tangible and has never coached at this level before. Clearly he has quite fixed ways about how he wants the team to play (the “Pep way” -but hardly surprising as he had time at one of their feeder clubs) but he had a paper thin squad, the quality of which is debatable and certainly not amongst the 6 best in this division, whatever the owners might say. 

So this is the biggest challenge he has ever faced, and a large proportion of the fans never really wanted him anyway. It has all the echoes of a previous appointment that went sour and from which the club took a number of years to recover under our previous manager. Until of course the owners decided to rinse and repeat and here we are!

Manning for me is like Dean Holden 2.0. Nothing against the guy but he has no pedigree at this level and looks like a glorified P.E teacher to me. Unfortunately I think the job is way too big for him and this is the start of the slide downwards. Cue the hunt for a new manager next year:- ‘’we need an experienced manager to help get us out of relegation trouble’’. Sound familiar?! 

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17 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

The irony is I actually don’t think the club is in a mess - or at least nowhere near the mess it was in either our last relegation season of 2012-2013 or when Pearson took over in 2021.

Pearson and Gould (and I suspect Tinnion) did a good job of stabilising the club, streamlining the wage bill, improving the culture and putting us in much better shape off the pitch. The Scott sale without investment is disappointing and it feels as though SL has lost interest but I actually think there is a better platform for success at the club now than at any point I can remember. 
 

But such platforms can easily be squandered by bad decisions and that is the risk. I think Manning could prove a good appointment but the timing, communication and failure to read the fans mood has created a perception of a crisis that has made the atmosphere around his start much tougher than it needs to be and - whilst I’ve not heard it - it sounds like he’s been quite rash in the post-match interview and criticised aspects of the club’s culture and mentality that only seem to have become a problem since Pearson was sacked.

I honestly think pretty much every decision made over the past four months could have been understood and appreciated - even if not fully agreed with - by fans if the club had shown a bit more understanding of the need to communicate with fans and understand potential reactions  before doing things

But not investing the Scott funds without anticipating some fans might have hoped those funds would be spent, losing the CEO without establishing a clear narrative for the change, sacking the manager without realising his level of popularity across the fanbase and appointing a replacement who lacks experience without sufficiently selling his positive attributes to the fanbase have all created an impression of crisis where none needs to exist. So much of it could be avoided by understanding the need to communicate with fans and preparing an explanation for inevitable questions before those questions are asked.

 

Bournemouth are paying us in instalments. I agree its all about clear communication which is sadly lacking from the top IMHO. We were led to believe that Scott was sold on our terms which inferred a sizeable chunk was to be paid up front so this would act as a springboard for more elaborate transfer dealings coming into the club. In reality Scott wanted to go & once he heard of their concrete interest & the close proximity to his Channel Islands family, that probably swayed it for him. All this has done is send out mixed messages and the raised expectations of long suffering fans have, once again, been extinguished.

Its the same scenario with Pearson. An established high profile manager, the sort of manager the club have needed for such a long time to steady the ship. Which he did. He did all of the dirty work in reducing the wage bill, he managed the expectations of the players and also the fans. We could all see the steady progress that was being made with little funding. The murmurs of funding and the lack of a new contract showed there was something amiss. Then they go and sack him and replace him with someone who has never coached at this level, who is implementing a completely different way of playing MID SEASON. What could possibly go wrong. I am very concerned that this could horribly go wrong but the continued lack of clear communication from the club just isolates the fans even more and probably does more harm long term with renewal of season tickets than a new coach losing a few matches. We are a mid table rudderless Championship club going nowhere.

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4 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

Five points off the play-offs

Current rate of ppg we should have caught that up by Boxing Day. Trouble is, others get to play too.

Stating how far we are off the playoffs (as it is with relegation) is largely pointless. We've made a decision that has lessened our (slim) chances of making the playoffs this season, if nothing else because the players don’t fit the system the manager prefers. As a STH my hope now is some kind of progression towards what looks like a coherent team and LM starting to show game awareness. My real fear is a poor, turgid, sleepwalking remainder of season and finishing c18th.

And if the entertainment factor doesn’t increase, coupled with how the board have shown total disregard for fans, I think season ticket renewal time could be a nasty shock for JL and co. I’ll keep going but plenty may not. 

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2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Five when NP was sacked too, Four when Manning entered ie between the Sheffield Wednesday game under Fleming and QPR away.

Problem is if there is a slow start with a new style etc, and 5 can become 7, 8, 10 pretty quickly and then the side have a mountain to climb.

For the record, I don't think we'll make the play-offs, and I don't think we would've under Pearson either. I was just making the point that it's hardly a crisis

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1 minute ago, AshtonGreat said:

For the record, I don't think we'll make the play-offs, and I don't think we would've under Pearson either. I was just making the point that it's hardly a crisis

Not a crisis no but if we don't maintain  the level that was inherited it's a backward step.

Playoffs would have been unlikely under whoever but we shouldn't be regressing.

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20 hours ago, AshtonGreat said:

Five points off the play-offs

With 7 teams above us and still not in the play offs, yes things can change quickly but 5 points is massive in the Championship, last season 5 points was the difference between being in the play offs and finishing 10th and to make it extra clear how much 5 points are in this league, points didn't even define who got 6th spot last season, it was the goal difference.

Any situation short of being flat last can be spun to seem more positive but the simple fact was had we beaten Norwich we'd currently be 7th, we're in 14th. The only way we're making the play offs is to have a huge turn in form and go on a run of 5-6 games undefeated which is simply not going to happen when our squad is being forced to learn a new style of play, of which many are simply not suited to. Our best hope of Play offs this season would be a very strong January that brings in players of a much higher calibre and suits Mannings tactics. I just cannot see that happening, I think our best outcome in January is to secure TGH on a permanent contract and potentially adding one more first-team player but I'm not sure the current board would even allow that to happen as we already have a top 6 squad....

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4 hours ago, Spike said:

With 7 teams above us and still not in the play offs, yes things can change quickly but 5 points is massive in the Championship, last season 5 points was the difference between being in the play offs and finishing 10th and to make it extra clear how much 5 points are in this league, points didn't even define who got 6th spot last season, it was the goal difference.

Any situation short of being flat last can be spun to seem more positive but the simple fact was had we beaten Norwich we'd currently be 7th, we're in 14th. The only way we're making the play offs is to have a huge turn in form and go on a run of 5-6 games undefeated which is simply not going to happen when our squad is being forced to learn a new style of play, of which many are simply not suited to. Our best hope of Play offs this season would be a very strong January that brings in players of a much higher calibre and suits Mannings tactics. I just cannot see that happening, I think our best outcome in January is to secure TGH on a permanent contract and potentially adding one more first-team player but I'm not sure the current board would even allow that to happen as we already have a top 6 squad....

I guess you could argue that 5 points off the playoffs now is more like 10-12 points off the playoffs come May.

As you say, we need a little unbeaten run to gain points on those above us, or win back to back, or 2/3, or 3/4.

FWIW I see him getting a couple in on top of TGH.

I’m very interested in him wanting a striker…mainly because i wonder what that means in terms of how we play.  We play with one at the mo’.  Is it new striker in, Conway demoted?  What about Wells and Cornick?

If it’s to play with Conway, why not try someone already here with him now?

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