Credit where it’s due…

[Charlie BCFC]

12 hours ago, johnbytheriver said:

That goes for every manager,what they did today comes from Nige. Full credit to the players,we have got some great 100 percent professionals, LM is lucky to have inherited them.Good luck to him as well!

Is this what we’re going to get every time we win a game 1-0? Under every manager you have games where you scrape a 1-0, Pearson also lost a lot of games from being 1-0 up as did Manning against Norwich. Just a weird comparison to make imo

[Sheltons Army]

19 minutes ago, Charlie BCFC said:

Is this what we’re going to get every time we win a game 1-0? Under every manager you have games where you scrape a 1-0, Pearson also lost a lot of games from being 1-0 up as did Manning against Norwich. Just a weird comparison to make imo

Or , clearly an irritant to the some Anti Np .....

A sensible and accurate observation or reaffirming that , as many predicted , and believe he would , NP has left , whatever your individual opinion about ability level , or quality, a squad of decent professionals with a good attitude (Actually a pretty rare thing in all my years) , and thus a decent base from which Liam Manning has to work from.

And you’ve also missed another major point , Its not about winning the game 1-0 , it was about the attitude of the players , their professionalism and application 

Its a label that can be made normally in win , draw , or defeat in this squad -

 

Above anything ,     I really like that 

[Reigate Red]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Sunderland forum had a quick browse of a thread critiquing their caretaker manager- some reckon we are an awful side. Wouldn't agree but we rode our luck a tad but we did perhaps merit a couple more points from previous games.

I had a read of their forum on the journey home and was a little surprised at how negative they generally were about their performance. I came away thinking they were good and a level above us.   

[Davefevs]

38 minutes ago, Charlie BCFC said:

Is this what we’re going to get every time we win a game 1-0? Under every manager you have games where you scrape a 1-0, Pearson also lost a lot of games from being 1-0 up as did Manning against Norwich. Just a weird comparison to make imo

You missed the point, it’s about what a good group of professionals we have.  And that comes from the culture introduced by Nige, which most definitely wasn’t there pre-Nige where we had more than one bad apple.

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Reigate Red said:

I had a read of their forum on the journey home and was a little surprised at how negative they generally were about their performance. I came away thinking they were good and a level above us.   

If I were critical of Sunderland yesterday it would be that they were a bit “pretty”, looked pleasing on the eye, especially around our box, but not so much inside it.

We defended well, don’t get me wrong. But they weren’t carving us open.  They got into our final third way too easily, but they didn’t “hurt us” too often.  Their best chances came from set-pieces.

Although I expect LM wanted us to impose our game on them, at 1-0 up there is an element of sitting in and holding on to what you’ve got.

I could praise the subs yesterday, brought legs / energy, but I could criticise them too, that tactically they didn’t bring anything to us with the ball.  But I fall into the camp of falling onto the positive side, because Bell, Weimann and Cornick (ignoring Williams for this bit) aren’t players that help you control possession.  So there wasn’t really a lot of options open to LM, apart from bringing energy.

[Slack Bladder]

We don't have great history when it comes to seeing games out

So, the fact we dug deep and defended as if our lives depended on it actually pleased me more than anything

I really enjoyed the game, yes it could have gone either way, but as somebody who went to the game expecting to get spanked. I came away rather upbeat.

As the saying goes .... sometimes the sun shines on a dogs arse.

Edited December 17, 2023 by Slack Bladder

[Numero Uno]

1 hour ago, Reigate Red said:

I had a read of their forum on the journey home and was a little surprised at how negative they generally were about their performance. I came away thinking they were good and a level above us.   

I think this forum would be the same if we had 67% possession over 90 minutes and only created one from open play and two from set pieces in terms of REAL chances (despite that Max still won that game for us). In fact with the way we know Manning wants to play it would lose its shit completely!! We created more in 10 minutes of open play than they did in 80 plus.

The comments would be “it’s pointless battering the other side and losing 1-0”.

[TV Tom]

2 hours ago, redkev said:

I personally think and agree we are a mid table side but I also think we are no ones push overs and will give most teams in this league a decent game , I honestly think the majority of teams wouldn’t choose to play against us the last game of the season to get promoted ( hopefully we have moved on from that Birmingham shambles under Johnson a few years back aaarrrrggghhhh

We’re definitely no push overs, anyone who beats us has to earn the points and that Brum game still annoys me as well !!!

[Numero Uno]

2 hours ago, Charlie BCFC said:

Is this what we’re going to get every time we win a game 1-0? Under every manager you have games where you scrape a 1-0, Pearson also lost a lot of games from being 1-0 up as did Manning against Norwich. Just a weird comparison to make imo

Similar results eh? Anyone would think they were managing the same players. The fact is, like it or not, Pearson assembled a group of honest hardworking players lacking high quality to fit a budget and until Manning gets more time and brings extra quality in to add to what we’ve got he has to utilise those tools…….just like he did yesterday.

Personally I would take slower progress on changing the style rather than trying to change too much too soon and losing batches of games. We did see 10 minutes yesterday, 20 minutes at Huddersfield and 20 at Blackburn of what Mannings football might look like if we get the recruiting right. We don’t have the personnel to sustain it for the majority of a single half right now let alone a whole game.

[italian dave]

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Controversial indeed.  For me, that was exactly the type of gutsy and determined performance you’d expect from a bunch of players developed by Nigel Pearson.  So, yes, I think it is the kinda game we would’ve won under Nige…in fact you can draw parallels with the Coventry win not that many weeks ago.

The Coventry game occurred to me yesterday too Dave. But I thought there were differences.

Yesterday, for all their dominance, I don’t think Sunderland could claim that they were unlucky. They had lots of possession, they had chances, but we made it difficult for them to turn that dominance into clear cut chances. And when they did create real chances what stopped them scoring was that we got bodies in the way, our keeper saved (well), too many of their shots were well off target.

My recollection of the Coventry game was that Coventry really were unlucky. The chances they created were, on several occasions, so, so close. Didn’t they hit the woodwork more than once? And shots curled just marginally wide.

I may be wrong: my memory isn’t what it was, and I struggle with last week’s game, never mind last months! But I just have this recollection of us genuinely riding our luck in the Coventry game in a way we didn’t yesterday. 

[Kid in the Riot]

4 minutes ago, italian dave said:

The Coventry game occurred to me yesterday too Dave. But I thought there were differences.

Yesterday, for all their dominance, I don’t think Sunderland could claim that they were unlucky. They had lots of possession, they had chances, but we made it difficult for them to turn that dominance into clear cut chances. And when they did create real chances what stopped them scoring was that we got bodies in the way, our keeper saved (well), too many of their shots were well off target.

My recollection of the Coventry game was that Coventry really were unlucky. The chances they created were, on several occasions, so, so close. Didn’t they hit the woodwork more than once? And shots curled just marginally wide.

I may be wrong: my memory isn’t what it was, and I struggle with last week’s game, never mind last months! But I just have this recollection of us genuinely riding our luck in the Coventry game in a way we didn’t yesterday. 

Yes, Coventry battered us first half. Should've been 3 nil up.

Our players had just had about 10 days off though

[Davefevs]

7 minutes ago, italian dave said:

The Coventry game occurred to me yesterday too Dave. But I thought there were differences.

Yesterday, for all their dominance, I don’t think Sunderland could claim that they were unlucky. They had lots of possession, they had chances, but we made it difficult for them to turn that dominance into clear cut chances. And when they did create real chances what stopped them scoring was that we got bodies in the way, our keeper saved (well), too many of their shots were well off target.

My recollection of the Coventry game was that Coventry really were unlucky. The chances they created were, on several occasions, so, so close. Didn’t they hit the woodwork more than once? And shots curled just marginally wide.

I may be wrong: my memory isn’t what it was, and I struggle with last week’s game, never mind last months! But I just have this recollection of us genuinely riding our luck in the Coventry game in a way we didn’t yesterday. 

Yeah, definitely differences.

But I also think things like game state affect our thinking too.

Coventry were on us from the kick off / Sunderland were on us all second half.  We spent 45 mins at 0-0 being dominated by Cov, before scoring on half-time.  Yesterday we were 1-0 up after 20 mins, maybe could’ve even been 2-0, so we had something to hold onto, so it feels a bit different.

Not that it really matters.  We won.  We stuck at both games, the foundation of a clean sheet having conceded some silly goals of late.

For me, the main things are that the good pros / good habits instilled by Nige are still there under LM.  It kinda doubly enforces how decent the culture is that nobody appears to have rocked the boat.  And appears LM has maintained that, which is a positive, even if nothing’s changed.

 

[petehinton]

A game we might’ve lost, but also might’ve won, under LJ

A game we might’ve lost, but also might’ve won, under Holden

A game we might’ve lost, but also might’ve won, under Pearson

A game we won, but might end losing in future similar type games under Manning 

it’s almost as if every game in football is different, and trying to draw these types of comparisons to fit any sort of narrative is slightly tiresome and pointless (Imo)

 

Edited December 17, 2023 by petehinton

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Yes, Coventry battered us first half. Should've been 3 nil up.

Our players had just had about 10 days off though

And there you have it.  Because it’s 0-0 our natural tendency is to see chances against us as a threatening.  I don’t mind seeing Sheaf shooting from 30 yards, but it gets us more worried when it clips the top of the bar.  

[Charlie BCFC]

On 17/12/2023 at 10:32, Davefevs said:

You missed the point, it’s about what a good group of professionals we have.  And that comes from the culture introduced by Nige, which most definitely wasn’t there pre-Nige where we had more than one bad apple.

I’d agree but that doesn’t mean he should credit for every single win we get when he’s not in charge. People need to accept he’s gone and just move on

[GrahamC]

On 17/12/2023 at 10:38, Davefevs said:

If I were critical of Sunderland yesterday it would be that they were a bit “pretty”, looked pleasing on the eye, especially around our box, but not so much inside it.

We defended well, don’t get me wrong. But they weren’t carving us open.  They got into our final third way too easily, but they didn’t “hurt us” too often.  Their best chances came from set-pieces.

Although I expect LM wanted us to impose our game on them, at 1-0 up there is an element of sitting in and holding on to what you’ve got.

I could praise the subs yesterday, brought legs / energy, but I could criticise them too, that tactically they didn’t bring anything to us with the ball.  But I fall into the camp of falling onto the positive side, because Bell, Weimann and Cornick (ignoring Williams for this bit) aren’t players that help you control possession.  So there wasn’t really a lot of options open to LM, apart from bringing energy.

Last season they had Diallo on loan, Simms or Stewart up top.

This season they don’t.

Great to watch but a bit punchless.

Would say though I’d happily see them, Boro & West Brom as opponents every time.

Play the right way, no time wasting or Preston style nonsense.

[Mr Popodopolous]

36 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Last season they had Diallo on loan, Simms or Stewart up top.

This season they don’t.

Great to watch but a bit punchless.

Would say though I’d happily see them, Boro & West Brom as opponents every time.

Play the right way, no time wasting or Preston style nonsense.

Geldhart also replaced Simms halfway. Bit punchless as you say but really entertaining..looking at some of their baseline stats pre game they seem to dominate a lot of the time but don't necessarily make it tell.

[Phileas Fogg]

22 hours ago, petehinton said:

A game we might’ve lost, but also might’ve won, under LJ

A game we might’ve lost, but also might’ve won, under Holden

A game we might’ve lost, but also might’ve won, under Pearson

A game we won, but might end losing in future similar type games under Manning 

it’s almost as if every game in football is different, and trying to draw these types of comparisons to fit any sort of narrative is slightly tiresome and pointless (Imo)

 

Exactly. The majority view seems to be ‘I’m disappointed that Pearson was unfairly sacked, and angry at our board - but will give Manning a fair go” - to me that’s the most rational view. 

Some have clearly made up their minds already and will actively seek out things that validate that agenda.

[petehinton]

5 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Exactly. The majority view seems to be ‘I’m disappointed that Pearson was unfairly sacked, and angry at our board - but will give Manning a fair go” - to me that’s the most rational view. 

Some have clearly made up their minds already and will actively seek out things that validate that agenda.

Yep. Grinding games out under pearson = lucky, bad. Grinding games out under manning = well organised, good. 
 

& ironically all the Pearson comparisons seemingly all come from those who were not in the “cult of Nige” yet more obsessed with bringing him up vs his most loyal of fans!

Edited December 18, 2023 by petehinton

[JoeAman08]

You’d be daft to think NP for 3 seasons doesn’t help in that situation Saturday. You’d also be daft to think the players are thinking that at the time. They put their bodies on the line and mostly great defending with some luck. That is NP, LM and recruitment. Can have NP but 6 lee tomlins and you’ll probably not see that out. 
 

Top 6 side? No not with our attacking players. We can be a top half side with the way we can keep goals out. Not going to win anything without goals though. Still think conway and wells can perform well enough with more creativity around them. Hard to recruit a cf with those two around imo. Maybe can try Conway on the left though? 
 

Say what you want about the Lansdowns and how they handled the NP and LM transition, but they aren’t the first to make a call like this. Can take our opponents from this weekend as and example. Had them playoffs and lost a couple key players now struggling to keep that form. Football does not stand still. You have small windows as non PP clubs as when you get good players performing they get plucked by bigger sides. No qualms with the change but they need to back LM in the market like they should have NP in the summer once they decided to let him go into the season. 

[MelksRed]

On 17/12/2023 at 07:02, wheretheheartis said:

I was thinking that they looked better all over the park than we did yesterday. 

Agree with this. We looked second best all over the place.  But the data that matters is the scoreline.

Will be a hard evening against 'Ull.....who always bring a good following....

[Mr Popodopolous]

We actually have a very ddednet record at home to Hull in modern times, we lost own at a low low ebb under Mcinnes and a Cup game when both rotated and they were PL.

However I do expect a tough game- they're in and around the top 6 for a reason, their new owner also invested quite well, quire a lot too after years and years of austerity under the Allams so that plus KLP sale £15-20m gave them from summer 2022 quite a good platform.

When Ilicali took over they had loads of headroom, we now by my estimates are at worst £15m above it to this season, maybe £20m maybe more..£20-25m possibly. I digress post the Scott sale nothing to stop us now pushing on a bit financially not to Parachute levels but Hull e.g. We likely have a higher income too.

[Swede]

What strikes me is the vast differences between the two sides. I think Sunderland are playing the way Manning wants us to play, but what a gulf between the two sides. Not so long ago they were a basket case, now, with some prudent recruitment they are definitely looking upward. Closing down, powerful, pacey & tricky out wide with some really good athletes in the midfield. Even the right back had a trick and was confident and on the front foot. Contrast to our team where we had players isolated, not quick enough and lack of movement or kept turning backwards and sideways which inevitably brings on the opposition press. It was the stark difference that struck me. Why should another Championship team make vast inroads whilst we are just poodling along. For me, this shows a lack of direction and that comes from the top. A win is a win but I've seen it too many times before where we've scuffed wins to paper over the cracks and then have come a cropper.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Worth looking at context too.

They spent 2 years building up themselves up, although their fans are unhappy about certain matters.

We spent 3 windows to 2 years retrenching and are only just back on an even keel now. Despite that we have absolutely improved on 2 to 2.5 years ago.

Thin squad that is injury decimated too. We only mafe one free transfer addition in January 2023 so you could argue the earliest retrenchment begun then.

Anyway we played in fits and starts, we can absolutely play better with the ball of course we can but context is everything with some comparisons such as this.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Numero Uno]

1 hour ago, MelksRed said:

Agree with this. We looked second best all over the place.  But the data that matters is the scoreline.

Will be a hard evening against 'Ull.....who always bring a good following....

For me, Friday is about delivering a better performance. If we get another three points great but I wouldn’t be too disappointed with one. Four points in those two games is acceptable imo and keeps us ticking over.

[Davefevs]

4 hours ago, Charlie BCFC said:

I’d agree but that doesn’t mean he should credit for every single win we get when he’s not in charge.

Agree…although you can surely see why some (me included) saw the traits of a team with a good culture / work ethic.  Which is something Nige fought hard to introduce / get rid of lazy players.

People need to accept he’s gone and just move on

there will always be comparisons, players, managers, whatever. Hell, we still compare to SOD.  In most things, without some sort of baseline / benchmark, how do you judge how well someone is doing?

2 hours ago, JoeAman08 said:

You’d be daft to think NP for 3 seasons doesn’t help in that situation Saturday. You’d also be daft to think the players are thinking that at the time. They put their bodies on the line and mostly great defending with some luck. That is NP, LM and recruitment. Can have NP but 6 lee tomlins and you’ll probably not see that out. 
 

Top 6 side? No not with our attacking players. We can be a top half side with the way we can keep goals out. Not going to win anything without goals though. Still think conway and wells can perform well enough with more creativity around them. Hard to recruit a cf with those two around imo. Maybe can try Conway on the left though? 
 

Say what you want about the Lansdowns and how they handled the NP and LM transition, but they aren’t the first to make a call like this. Can take our opponents from this weekend as and example. Had them playoffs and lost a couple key players now struggling to keep that form. Football does not stand still. You have small windows as non PP clubs as when you get good players performing they get plucked by bigger sides. No qualms with the change but they need to back LM in the market like they should have NP in the summer once they decided to let him go into the season. 

Good post Joe.

1 hour ago, Swede said:

What strikes me is the vast differences between the two sides. I think Sunderland are playing the way Manning wants us to play, but what a gulf between the two sides. Not so long ago they were a basket case, now, with some prudent recruitment they are definitely looking upward. Closing down, powerful, pacey & tricky out wide with some really good athletes in the midfield. Even the right back had a trick and was confident and on the front foot. Contrast to our team where we had players isolated, not quick enough and lack of movement or kept turning backwards and sideways which inevitably brings on the opposition press. It was the stark difference that struck me. Why should another Championship team make vast inroads whilst we are just poodling along. For me, this shows a lack of direction and that comes from the top. A win is a win but I've seen it too many times before where we've scuffed wins to paper over the cracks and then have come a cropper.

For me, I came away wondering whether Sunderland would’ve dominated possession without Pritchard and Ba dropping deep and outnumbering our midfield.  What if they’d stayed up top?  Might they have ceded a bit of possession / territory dominance to have someone working our last line and able to get onto chances.  They played a lot of their 67% possession in front of us.  The chances they forced Max into saves came from set-pieces.  I also came away wondering what if Knight had played deeper and not allowed them to outnumber us in midfield?

[Sir Geoff]

31 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Good post Joe.

For me, I came away wondering whether Sunderland would’ve dominated possession without Pritchard and Ba dropping deep and outnumbering our midfield.  What if they’d stayed up top?  Might they have ceded a bit of possession / territory dominance to have someone working our last line and able to get onto chances.  They played a lot of their 67% possession in front of us.  The chances they forced Max into saves came from set-pieces.  I also came away wondering what if Knight had played deeper and not allowed them to outnumber us in midfield?

I personally think Knight is a bit wasted playing so far forward. I appreciate he starts a lot of the presses from there but as you say it does leave us 'light' in the space behind. Was thinking Saturday we may have been a bit stronger if Knight had played deeper instead of James and Tommy played the 'Knight forward' role with Cornick ahead of him.

[steviestevieneville]

28 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

I personally think Knight is a bit wasted playing so far forward. I appreciate he starts a lot of the presses from there but as you say it does leave us 'light' in the space behind. Was thinking Saturday we may have been a bit stronger if Knight had played deeper instead of James and Tommy played the 'Knight forward' role with Cornick ahead of him.

His position may become a bit deeper with Nahki fit now. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

It could help us but even with his energy, and what energy Knight has- 2 v 3 vs better and even similar sides could still expose us a bit.

Would it be something like:

Sykes Knight TGH Bell/Mehmeti

                  Conway 

                    Wells

Knight shunting forward and back a bit for a 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 type hybrid maybe another way.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Sir Geoff]

29 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

His position may become a bit deeper with Nahki fit now. 

Yes, Nige started him in the no.10 role a few times. Personally think he is more effective coming onto the ball rather than being static too far forward.