£22m loss 22/23 season

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, George Rs said:

Does that suggest we got the 9.5m upfront? 
 

Would make a lot of sense as I thought he’d go a for a couple million more but if it was paid largely upfront that would’ve changed things.

@ExiledAjax just answered.

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

This bit surprised me.

Unless the Women's team added more than usual, or were there inbound transfers pre June 30th.

Think we can disregard Womens, if any fees paid it will be negligible in terms of men’s football.

++++++++++++ 

I haven’t had a proper look, literally took the P&L figs and popped them into my spreadsheet, and then tried a bit of amortisation reconciliation, I’m not a million miles out.

++++++++++++

First thoughts.  Costs (staff, amortisation, etc) higher because 13 months vs 12 months.  Everything costs 1/12th more.  A £30m wage bill becomes £32.5m (up £2.5m) by virtue of the accounting period, yet we don’t earn any real revenue in June!

Staffing up 248, mainly in food and beverage, but also stadium ops.  Could be events related.

I think when we see the individual BCFC and AG accounts we will get a better picture.

Players down 14…my neck on the line, the £5.6m wage cost increase isn’t on the playing side.

This will need a better explanation. And on the playing side what must be recognised is that some of playing side wage cut came on July 1st (23-24’s accounts) with Kalas, Massengo, Baker, Moore, Dasilva no longer on the books.  Some of the other wage cuts in 22-23 will only be part-period.

I think my estimates were at around £18m loss but add in an extra 1/12th costs, I was probably at £20m(ish), although revenues a bit higher than I’d guessed…but wiped by staff costs.

[Davefevs]

25 minutes ago, RedM said:

You will have to trust me on this, or not I don't mind. I was surprised by the figure and if it was only for 6mths as you say it was a lot of money we were paying for his services. I didn't think it was right how he was sacked and didn't like how it was done but what he was paid tainted my view somewhat. I certainly won't worry about him financially, but as he is struggling with poor health I bet he would give most of it up if he could improve that in an instant.

Yep, I have no idea what Nige’s termination clauses were.  We can’t just assume he just gets paid up his remaining term of his contract.

[East End Old Boy]

3 hours ago, BlowerBCFC said:

Football club owns the stadium which all event income and staff will be included in.

Therefore would be included in the group accounts for the football club which are the ones being shown.

The companies that make up the stadium and the actual football side of it will have separate accounts filed online which will break down those costs into stadium and football side wages separately 

I thought Pula Sports were sole owners of the stadium, which is just Steve and Maggie?

[Midlands Robin]

I can never get my head around the absolute knot that is our struture under Bristol Sport.

How is it that outside of football stadium events are charged against Bristol City Holdings? In a way that suggests that the Football club are liable for the stadium and that the two are together which is a good thing when it comes to ownership but are City being left to foot the bill every time we hold concerts and the like? Or is this staff for the sports bar when additional staff are employed for international fixtures?

I was under the mimpression that the Ashton Gate Stadium company was a seperate organisation?

Edited December 23, 2023 by Midlands Robin

[Lanterne Rouge]

2 minutes ago, Midlands Robin said:

I can never get my head around the absolute knot that is our struture under Bristol Sport.

How is it that outside of football stadium events are charged against Bristol City Holdings? In a way that suggests that the Football club are liable for the stadium and that the two are together which is a good thing when it comes to ownership but are City being left to foot the bill every time we hold concerts and the like? Or is this staff for the sports bar when additional staff are employed for international fixtures?

I was under the mimpression that the Ashton Gate Stadium company was a seperate organisation?

It`s why accountants make more in a week than we do in a year!

[Kid in the Riot]

50 minutes ago, RedM said:

You will have to trust me on this, or not I don't mind. I was surprised by the figure and if it was only for 6mths as you say it was a lot of money we were paying for his services. I didn't think it was right how he was sacked and didn't like how it was done but what he was paid tainted my view somewhat. I certainly won't worry about him financially, but as he is struggling with poor health I bet he would give most of it up if he could improve that in an instant.

LJ was being paid around £600k pa so I'd always assumed NP was on more than that... 

[View from the Dolman]

22 minutes ago, East End Old Boy said:

I thought Pula Sports were sole owners of the stadium, which is just Steve and Maggie?

Ashton Gate is owned by Ashton Gate Ltd, part of the Bristol City Holdings Ltd group. 

This much believed thing that SL owns Ashton Gate in some wholly separate entity is becoming a bit of a myth. Yes, he effectively owns it via his controlling stake in the Holdings company but it remains part of the group (which is also the relevant FFP entity) as it has been for a considerable period now. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

18 minutes ago, Midlands Robin said:

I can never get my head around the absolute knot that is our struture under Bristol Sport.

How is it that outside of football stadium events are charged against Bristol City Holdings? In a way that suggests that the Football club are liable for the stadium and that the two are together which is a good thing when it comes to ownership but are City being left to foot the bill every time we hold concerts and the like? Or is this staff for the sports bar when additional staff are employed for international fixtures?

I was under the mimpression that the Ashton Gate Stadium company was a seperate organisation?

Ashton Gate Limited, Bristol City FC and Bristol City Women together comprise Bristol City Holdings. Indeed Bristol City Women sits under the Bristol City FC.

This is the consolidator albeit non trading.

Put another way could we lay claim to the events non matchday revenue if it was split as you describe?

(Albeit the gains in some way maybe marginal, would have to wait for the AGL and Bristol City FC accounts to be out to get the full picture).

Edited December 23, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Midlands Robin]

Cheers Mr P.

That makes more sense.

It does then beg the question about where Bristol Sport sit in this arrangement? Every time I've seen fan complaints raised about food,stock in the club shop,ticket booking fees etc the response from the City side is that it sits with Bristol Sport and needs to be taken up with them.

Sometimes it feels like we're chasing our tails.

[East End Old Boy]

31 minutes ago, View from the Dolman said:

Ashton Gate is owned by Ashton Gate Ltd, part of the Bristol City Holdings Ltd group. 

This much believed thing that SL owns Ashton Gate in some wholly separate entity is becoming a bit of a myth. Yes, he effectively owns it via his controlling stake in the Holdings company but it remains part of the group (which is also the relevant FFP entity) as it has been for a considerable period now. 

Interesting, as Mark Kelly and/or Gavin Marshall said the stadium was ultimately owned by Pula Sports at the Senior Reds lunch last month?

Edited December 23, 2023 by East End Old Boy

[Nuno Gomes]

3 hours ago, Ghost Rider said:

Do grown adults actually find this “crayon” jibe funny? That said, some people actually find Mrs Browns Boys funny, so I suppose that answers my own question. 

Agreed. ‘Crayon’, ‘nest egg’, ‘top six’ is all getting too boring for words. 
can we just move on?

[Merrick's Marvels]

1 hour ago, RedM said:

what he was paid tainted my view somewhat.

Why on earth would it do that?

[RUSSEL85]

56 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

It`s why accountants make more in a week than we do in a year!

As a qualified accountant, I can tell you I really wish that was the case  

[ExiledAjax]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Staffing up 248, mainly in food and beverage, but also stadium ops.  Could be events related.

The way I (skim) read is that it's all events related. £4m extra income/revenue but £6m extra in staff costs.

I'll be honest I ******* hate them for releasing these today. I've got 5 days of drinking and eating planned and dissecting our accounts was NOT part of the plan.

Christmas *******.

[Bristol Rob]

Does this set of accounts cover a year where there wasn't any summer music thing at the stadium?

(Appreciate that is more than likely a fixed-price stadium rental, rather than a share of revenue, but that could change in the next set if this was a year without anything).

And didn't the pitch get replaced as well, that's another chunk of change.

[Davefevs]

32 minutes ago, Midlands Robin said:

Cheers Mr P.

That makes more sense.

It does then beg the question about where Bristol Sport sit in this arrangement? Every time I've seen fan complaints raised about food,stock in the club shop,ticket booking fees etc the response from the City side is that it sits with Bristol Sport and needs to be taken up with them.

Sometimes it feels like we're chasing our tails.

As a service provider:

 

need to divorce Bristol Sport Ltd from “Bristol Sport” the “brand”.

23 minutes ago, East End Old Boy said:

Interesting, as Mark Kelly and/or Gavin Marshall said the stadium was ultimately owned by Pula Sports at the Senior Reds lunch last month?

Everything is owned by Pula (Steve and Maggie):

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/05450440/persons-with-significant-control

5 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

The way I (skim) read is that it's all events related. £4m extra income/revenue but £6m extra in staff costs.

I'll be honest I ******* hate them for releasing these today. I've got 5 days of drinking and eating planned and dissecting our accounts was NOT part of the plan.

Christmas *******.

Just taking the wages £30m last year, 13/12ths is £32.5m…there’s your £2.5m differences!  Very simplistic way of looking at it!

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

Does this set of accounts cover a year where there wasn't any summer music thing at the stadium?

(Appreciate that is more than likely a fixed-price stadium rental, rather than a share of revenue, but that could change in the next set if this was a year without anything).

And didn't the pitch get replaced as well, that's another chunk of change.

I don’t remember the gigs, but you’re looking at gigs between 1st June 2022 and 30th June 2023.

I have no spreadsheet for gigs!

[Davefevs]

Anyone know how to create a pdf out of the accounts instead of that horrible “reader” they’ve published them using?  Ta.

Companies House will have a pdf version once submitted and scanned, but I want to scribble notes now!!!

[BCFC Rich]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I have no spreadsheet for gigs!

This might be the most shocking news OTIB has ever heard!!!! 

[REDOXO]

13 minutes ago, BCFC Rich said:

This might be the most shocking news OTIB has ever heard!!!! 

The illusion is shattered!

[Barrs Court Red]

So is the stadium making a loss? And I guess if yes, is it a bigger loss than pre-rebuild? 
 

My assumption is that it’s not and never will be a yes/no to either question due to the tangled web of corporate financing.  
 

With ticket sales in excess of £6m that still only equates to £115k p/w which isn’t a large sum by any stretch to spend on wages and the club has to get more out of its asset - if the asset is loss making that’s a huge problem, given we’ve had 20 years of chasing a sustainable model and the rebuild was supposed to be a huge part of solving that puzzle. 

[ExiledAjax]

52 minutes ago, East End Old Boy said:

Interesting, as Mark Kelly and/or Gavin Marshall said the stadium was ultimately owned by Pula Sports at the Senior Reds lunch last month?

Pula Sports is owned by Steve and Maggie. @Davefevs has a diagram that shows it.

[Mr Popodopolous]

28 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Anyone know how to create a pdf out of the accounts instead of that horrible “reader” they’ve published them using?  Ta.

Companies House will have a pdf version once submitted and scanned, but I want to scribble notes now!!!

I'm glad you mentioned that Dave- that format..gaah.

[Mr Popodopolous]

9 minutes ago, Barrs Court Red said:

So is the stadium making a loss? And I guess if yes, is it a bigger loss than pre-rebuild? 
 

My assumption is that it’s not and never will be a yes/no to either question due to the tangled web of corporate financing.  
 

With ticket sales in excess of £6m that still only equates to £115k p/w which isn’t a large sum by any stretch to spend on wages and the club has to get more out of its asset - if the asset is loss making that’s a huge problem, given we’ve had 20 years of chasing a sustainable model and the rebuild was supposed to be a huge part of solving that puzzle. 

Depends what we define as a loss I suppose, Cash Lose or Profit and Loss Loss.

We are getting more hence the £36m turnover, some of that will be due to 13 months instead of 12 of revenue but the club accounts will show just the club stuff, the AGL will show the commercial side and the overwhelming bulk will be under BCFC Holdings with perhaps some rugby specific items.

As to the sustainable model, I query how possible it is at our level. Maybe if you're Rotherham but they more often than not yoyo up and then down again.

The impending planned Regulation change to replace FFP of 70% of Football Wages, player amortisation, Impairment and Agents Fees to match turnover should help, if it goes hand in hand with a proper TV redistribution we are getting somewhere.

[Davefevs]

16 minutes ago, Barrs Court Red said:

So is the stadium making a loss? And I guess if yes, is it a bigger loss than pre-rebuild? 
 

My assumption is that it’s not and never will be a yes/no to either question due to the tangled web of corporate financing.  
 

With ticket sales in excess of £6m that still only equates to £115k p/w which isn’t a large sum by any stretch to spend on wages and the club has to get more out of its asset - if the asset is loss making that’s a huge problem, given we’ve had 20 years of chasing a sustainable model and the rebuild was supposed to be a huge part of solving that puzzle. 

I guess the stadium company makes a loss because it pays the interest on the loans to SL and has to cover the depreciation on the stadium too.  Football doing similar on the training ground.

Interest - £2.9m

Depreciation - £3.5m

15 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Pula Sports is owned by Steve and Maggie. @Davefevs has a diagram that shows it.

@ExiledAjax has a better one!

[fgrsimon]

43 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I don’t remember the gigs, but you’re looking at gigs between 1st June 2022 and 30th June 2023.

I have no spreadsheet for gigs!

Killers and Elton John in 2022

Only Arctic Monkeys in 2023

Not sure if all of these were in the 13 month period?

I think none in 2020 or 2021 due to Covid

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, fgrsimon said:

Killers and Elton John in 2022

Only Arctic Monkeys in 2023

Not sure if all of these were in the 13 month period?

I think none in 2020 or 2021 due to Covid

Killers - May 2022 so in 21-22’s acounts

Reg Dwight - 2 gigs in June 2022 so Watford helping us in the latest accounts.

Plus Monkeys this set of accounts too.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

That interest payable is creeping up and one to watch!

I raised a query or 2 about the secured Loan in 2021 maybe or 2022, a while ago anyway..it is massively more than offset by the equity conversions in terms of a net contribution but it is creeping up a bit.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[W-S-M Seagull]

2 hours ago, Ghost Rider said:

To be fair, SL is worth 2.2 billion. 22 million is literally 1% of his net worth, so I don’t think he’ll be losing too much sleep over it. 

He'd also be hoping to claw that back when he sells the club. 

[fgrsimon]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Killers - May 2022 so in 21-22’s acounts

Reg Dwight - 2 gigs in June 2022 so Watford helping us in the latest accounts.

Plus Monkeys this set of accounts too.

 

So 3 gigs in these accounts vs 1 in 21-22 presumably accounts for some of the increased staff costs?