£22m loss 22/23 season

[RedM]

8 hours ago, RobArnold10 said:

I suspect that’s not how it’ll work. 
 

He was out of contract in the summer, so even if we paid him in lieu that would be up to and including our (new) year end. So assuming there was no additional payout (which unless contracted we wouldn’t have been obliged to do)  then it’s no additional cost in the accounts.

 

Similarly, if he had another year after that, even if we’d paid him, you would accrue the cost across the length of the contract. So similarly with Nathan Baker, it’s not a one off cost, but the monthly wage would be recognised accordingly.
 

short answer? It’s not always about the cash. 

Fair point, that's why I'm not an accountant or anything remotely related to business

[ExiledAjax]

@East End Old Boy here's a diagram of the company structure.

The company - Bristol City Holdings - that has published accounts is circled in black.

I have added some grey arrows to show the flow of information from the other 3 up into Bristol City Holdings.

 

Ignore BCFC Limited as it doesn't do anything.

[aa_bcfc]

17 hours ago, Ghost Rider said:

Do grown adults actually find this “crayon” jibe funny? That said, some people actually find Mrs Browns Boys funny, so I suppose that answers my own question. 

I don’t find it funny at all. In fact I find it rude, embarrassing and totally disrespectful to Jon and the Lansdown family. IMO If they stopped funding the debt we’d be screwed. 

[exAtyeoMax]

So did the club wait until AS was sold before they fired Nige? I mean, if it was such a massive payout they didn’t want it to appear on the previous year’s accounts?

[Sir Geoff]

8 hours ago, The Constant Rabbit said:

Dave - surely then increased revenues should show up from the 'events' if staff costs are included?

 

Any idea what we get from a concert?

 

Flat 'hire fee' and all concession sales

24% of total

 

Or does it vary?

Thanks

Concert promoters pay a flat fee to hire a stadium. A venue the size of Ashton Gate would be circa £300 /500 k.

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Concert promoters pay a flat fee to hire a stadium. A venue the size of Ashton Gate would be circa £300 /500 k.

Thanks SG.

I’m guessing we also make money from the concessions too, e.g. each stall pays a fee to be there for the gig?

@The Constant Rabbit I think @Mr Popodopolous answered your question on previous page.

[ralphindevon]

17 hours ago, RedM said:

You will have to trust me on this, or not I don't mind. I was surprised by the figure and if it was only for 6mths as you say it was a lot of money we were paying for his services. I didn't think it was right how he was sacked and didn't like how it was done but what he was paid tainted my view somewhat. I certainly won't worry about him financially, but as he is struggling with poor health I bet he would give most of it up if he could improve that in an instant.

Would Nige have been given a fee for keeping quiet and not spilling the beans on what it’s like being Bristol City manager and working for the Lansdowns? 

[headhunter]

19 hours ago, George Rs said:

Does that suggest we got the 9.5m upfront? 
 

Would make a lot of sense as I thought he’d go a for a couple million more but if it was paid largely upfront that would’ve changed things.

The full value of the sale, like for any business, is taken credit for in the year the transaction takes place. If the fee is paid in instalments each one is offset against the balance owing at the end of each financial period.

The full Scott fee of £25M will be in the accounts for 23/24. It is irrelevant that they may be paying in instalments of £6.25M over four years. That said the £25M could be a "total" sum with elements triggered by certain events, for example, let's say the base fee was £18M but £4M on achieving 40 appearances and £3M when he reaches 80 appearances then in those circumstances £4M would be triggered some time in 24/25 and therefore in that years accounts and similarly £3M in 25/26.

Highly likely if Scott performs he won't be at Bournemouth in 25/26 so highly likely that years accounts would have the balance of the original fee [assuming he hadn't got to 80 appearances] plus any sell-on clause.

@Davefevs will correct me if any of these assumptions are incorrect

[AppyDAZE]

20 hours ago, Bristol Rob said:

As nest-eggs go, it isn't the most impressive.

More like a dead chick in the nest.

[Gol]

Keiran Maguire has reviewed the accounts some interesting stuff @Davefevs @Mr Popodopolous @ExiledAjax

 

 

[petehinton]

The last line…

Edited December 24, 2023 by petehinton

[Sir Geoff]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Thanks SG.

I’m guessing we also make money from the concessions too, e.g. each stall pays a fee to be there for the gig?

@The Constant Rabbit I think @Mr Popodopolous answered your question on previous page.

Yes, I was going to question this. Didn't Stan have John or someone similar on OSIB a few years back who said they sold 30,000 pints in an hour at a gig that summer.

[ExiledAjax]

9 minutes ago, petehinton said:

The last line…

But this is wages at Holdings level. It's not just player wages. Unless he's caveated this or qualified it? 

I think when we see the accounts for Bristol City Football Club Limited - then we can get a better idea of the wages we pay our professional footballers, which is presumably what we mean when we talk about our budget.

Accounts for Ashton Gate Limited will also be illuminating. I think from Holdings accounts it looks like income from AG events is up by about £4.5m, but staff costs are up as well by about £6m...which seems not great. I'm not certain on this but btw. I also need to read the staff recharge bits in more detail - basically that is where someone employed by, say, Bristol Sport does work for BCFC, and Bristol Sport charges their salary to BCFC for that work. That's mentioned later in the notes.

The rest of his analysis is fair, although you need to bear in mind that income is also for a 13 months period as well as outgoings.

Seriously I'm not doing a detailed look at this until 28th Dec. 

Again, it's bloody rude to release these on 23 Dec!

[Sir Geoff]

18 minutes ago, petehinton said:

The last line…

Yes that last line haha. Top ten budget, should be doing better (than11th).

Always wondered what the Baroness looked like. 

[petehinton]

 

[RedM]

1 hour ago, ralphindevon said:

Would Nige have been given a fee for keeping quiet and not spilling the beans on what it’s like being Bristol City manager and working for the Lansdowns? 

Not that I know of, but like others have said anything is possible.

[old_eastender]

4 hours ago, aa_bcfc said:

I don’t find it funny at all. In fact I find it rude, embarrassing and totally disrespectful to Jon and the Lansdown family. IMO If they stopped funding the debt we’d be screwed. 

I found the spoof video of JL very funny, but agree with you we'd be screwed without SLs funding - however bad his footballing decisions have been!

[chinapig]

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

But this is wages at Holdings level. It's not just player wages. Unless he's caveated this or qualified it? 

Plus discussion on here tends to conflate wages paid for the period of the accounts and the wage budget for the current period. The latter seems likely to be lower than the former.

 

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

I've always separated out SL and JL in some ways.

SL has at least left some strong off pitch infrastructure and yes has made major errors but does keep us solvent.

JL is however just in the role he is owing to who SL is. He is a significant downgrade on the bulk of evidence so far. SL is far from perfect but JL is worse.

I think some of the current strategy is to align us to the anticipated new Financial regs. 70% turnover plus inbound transfer instalments or transfer profits for football wages, player amortisation and impairment plus agents fees.

Still a tad light squad wise though.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

But this is wages at Holdings level. It's not just player wages. Unless he's caveated this or qualified it? 

I think when we see the accounts for Bristol City Football Club Limited - then we can get a better idea of the wages we pay our professional footballers, which is presumably what we mean when we talk about our budget.

Accounts for Ashton Gate Limited will also be illuminating. I think from Holdings accounts it looks like income from AG events is up by about £4.5m, but staff costs are up as well by about £6m...which seems not great. I'm not certain on this but btw. I also need to read the staff recharge bits in more detail - basically that is where someone employed by, say, Bristol Sport does work for BCFC, and Bristol Sport charges their salary to BCFC for that work. That's mentioned later in the notes.

The rest of his analysis is fair, although you need to bear in mind that income is also for a 13 months period as well as outgoings.

Seriously I'm not doing a detailed look at this until 28th Dec. 

Again, it's bloody rude to release these on 23 Dec!

I think what Kieran does, his rule of thumb here is to divide the wage by the number of Football Staff/Players.

If I was to hazard a guess the football club wage side would be £25-26m, whether that would be inclusive of 12 or 13 months, I've yet to try and extrapolate properly, as yiu say the timing of the release is terrible.

In 2021-22 It was between 75-80% the club to Holdings ratio.

Edited December 24, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, headhunter said:

The full value of the sale, like for any business, is taken credit for in the year the transaction takes place. If the fee is paid in instalments each one is offset against the balance owing at the end of each financial period.

The full Scott fee of £25M will be in the accounts for 23/24. It is irrelevant that they may be paying in instalments of £6.25M over four years. That said the £25M could be a "total" sum with elements triggered by certain events, for example, let's say the base fee was £18M but £4M on achieving 40 appearances and £3M when he reaches 80 appearances then in those circumstances £4M would be triggered some time in 24/25 and therefore in that years accounts and similarly £3M in 25/26.

Highly likely if Scott performs he won't be at Bournemouth in 25/26 so highly likely that years accounts would have the balance of the original fee [assuming he hadn't got to 80 appearances] plus any sell-on clause.

@Davefevs will correct me if any of these assumptions are incorrect

I’m not sure about the bit in bold, all the rest I agree with - but weren’t you an accountant in a former life.

In your example, this would be my take.:

£18m in 23-24’s accounts

£4m (40 apps) in 24-25’s accounts

sold in 25-26 before reaching 80 apps - £0 in 25-26’s accounts (unless that clause is carried into his new club - unlikely)

sold for £58m (20% of £40m) - £8m in 25-26’s accounts

2 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

But this is wages at Holdings level. It's not just player wages. Unless he's caveated this or qualified it? 

I think when we see the accounts for Bristol City Football Club Limited - then we can get a better idea of the wages we pay our professional footballers, which is presumably what we mean when we talk about our budget.

Accounts for Ashton Gate Limited will also be illuminating. I think from Holdings accounts it looks like income from AG events is up by about £4.5m, but staff costs are up as well by about £6m...which seems not great. I'm not certain on this but btw. I also need to read the staff recharge bits in more detail - basically that is where someone employed by, say, Bristol Sport does work for BCFC, and Bristol Sport charges their salary to BCFC for that work. That's mentioned later in the notes.

The rest of his analysis is fair, although you need to bear in mind that income is also for a 13 months period as well as outgoings.

Seriously I'm not doing a detailed look at this until 28th Dec. 

Again, it's bloody rude to release these on 23 Dec!

Yep, need to wait for the City FC Ltd accounts.

Those total staff costs are 13 months too.

£35.951m over 13 months would be £33.186m over 12 months (crude) is a £2.765m additional cost in this years accounts.  That brings the context of £22m losses down to under £20m.  I know you know that

25 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I think what Kieran does, his rule of thumb here is to divide the wage by the number of Football Staff/Players.

If I was to hazard a guess the football club wage side would be £25-26m, whether that would be inclusive of 12 or 13 months, I've yet to try and extrapolate properly, as yiu say the timing of the release is terrible.

In 2021-22 It was between 75-80% the club to Holdings ratio.

He does.  I asked him once how he did it, and he had a formula for doing it.  It probably works better for club accounts that aren’t complicated by holdings / stadium accounts.

[Hxj]

Gosh - Christmas pub trips celebrations and looking at Bristol City Holdings Ltd accounts - as others have said not a good combination!

A few initial comments.

1. Comparing 13 month accounting periods and 12 month accounting periods can be entirely unproductive for a lot of stuff as balances fluctuate wildly.  This is particularly true where the additional month is one where there is no 'football income', yet annual/end of contract bonuses tend to be paid.  The implication is that two years of such wage payments are included in these accounts.

2. Increased debtors in relation to player transfers of £6 million (note 16 page 37) implies a significant deferral of the cash from Semenyo.

3. Commercial income of £19.5 million is very impressive.  All of which feeds into the FFP figure.

4. As regards increased staff numbers, these are averages across the whole accounting period.  So 365 people working for one day at a concert increases your average staff numbers by 1 a year.  The increase implies that Ashton Gate Ltd has moved from the original 'property only' rent to a 'property, plus services' model which should produce higher returns.

5. This looks like the last year of significant amortisation charges.

[Davefevs]

Thanks @Hxj, very informative (as ever)

Re that £6m!!!  I’d picked up on that too….

Re Semenyo, transfer profit £9.5m (total), guesswork that most of that is Antoine (£9m).  There is a likelihood that the difference (£0.5m) is made up of transfer profit on Ruben McAllister, Ryley Towler and a small amount of sell-on for Sammy Szmodics.

The small impairment might be Dan Bentley and / or Kane Wilson?

So if Antoine was £9.0m, that would possibly mean £4.5m up front for Antoine (transfer fees received in year £4.94m), and £4.5m left to pay….yet as you say almost £6m debtors.

What is the £1.5m gap?

Further add-ons from Webster, or Brownhill, or Kelly?  Something else?  If that £6 is Antoine then the transfer profit seems wrong.

I’m in need of educating

[Hxj]

40 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

So if Antoine was £9.0m, that would possibly mean £4.5m up front for Antoine (transfer fees received in year £4.94m), and £4.5m left to pay….yet as you say almost £6m debtors.

What is the £1.5m gap?

I get to the numbers with Semenyo going for £9 million, with three equal payments, which is not unusual.  Bentley going for £1 million or so upfront payment.

The balance is the £500k receipt from previous add-ons (Note 26 para 2, page 42.)

The problem (as ever) is that 'transfer cash received' is not the same as 'transfer profit' and cannot be directly reconciled from the information available.

I suspect that the £140k is the loss on Wilson.

I doubt that Towler, McAllister and Szmodics were material.

Edited December 24, 2023 by Hxj

[Davefevs]

23 minutes ago, Hxj said:

I get to the numbers with Semenyo going for £9 million, with three equal payments, which is not unusual.  Bentley going for £1 million or so upfront payment.

The balance is the £500k receipt from previous add-ons (Note 26 para 2, page 42.)

The problem (as ever) is that 'transfer cash received' is not the same as 'transfer profit' and cannot be directly reconciled from the information available.

I suspect that the £140k is the loss on Wilson.

I doubt that Towler, McAllister and Szmodics were material.

Ta, Bentley for £1m would make more sense than the nominal £50k that was banded about.  Never felt comfortable with that amount.

I will digest then update the good old excel…festive fun.

[Mr Popodopolous]

I made an early prediction for BCFC Holdings in 2023-24 of a pre tax profit of £5-10m following the Scott sale. Subject to Jan 2024 activity of course.

That was before the cost of the change of manager, coaching staff and indeed if there is one, cost of replacing Alexander.

Maybe a few million lower given these results and subsequent events, £3-5m subject of course to January 2024 activity.

[Hxj]

32 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

£3-5m subject of course to January 2024 activity.

I'd get to a much less generous figure.

Loss per 2023 accounts - £22.2m

Deduct Transfer Profit - £9.5m

Add Intangible w/o w/d - £7m

Add 2x End of year - £4m

Deduct 2 x Concert - £2m

Net Loss                   £22.7

12/13ths Loss            £21m

Add AS sale             £20m

Deduct Intangible     £2m

Deduct End of year  £1m

Add Concert             £2m

Net Loss                   £2m

Salary saving - net of cost of NP's team leaving?

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

6 minutes ago, Hxj said:

I'd get to a much less generous figure.

Loss per 2023 accounts - £22.2m

Deduct Transfer Profit - £9.5m

Add Intangible w/o w/d - £7m

Add 2x End of year - £4m

Deduct 2 x Concert - £2m

Net Loss                   £22.7

12/13ths Loss            £21m

Add AS sale             £20m

Deduct Intangible     £2m

Deduct End of year  £1m

Add Concert             £2m

Net Loss                   £2m

Salary saving - net of cost of NP's team leaving?

 

 

Wow so we may make a loss even with the sale of Scott??

I have had the Scott sale down as closer to £25m than £20m so we may diverge slightly there.

My workings are far less detailed but I reckoned wage bill down £9m once factoring in falls and 12 v 13 months, amortisation down about £3m and transfer profit up £11-16m.

Income down maybe £1m.

[Hxj]

32 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I have had the Scott sale down as closer to £25m than £20m so we may diverge slightly there.

The accounts for 2022/23 refer to a figure of £19m for the net transfer sales after the end of the year (note 26 para 1, page 42).  I would be surprised if we had spent more than a net £2m ignoring Scott.

[Davefevs]

42 minutes ago, Hxj said:

The accounts for 2022/23 refer to a figure of £19m for the net transfer sales after the end of the year (note 26 para 1, page 42).  I would be surprised if we had spent more than a net £2m ignoring Scott.

We spent £4.417m in 2022-23 (extended year)

• K.Wilson
• E.Clark
• A.Mehmeti
• H.Cornick

Sykes and Naismith free, so they definitely don’t add up to £4.417m, so assuming the following early summer 2023 deals with fees are included:

• R.Dickie - £0.700m
• R.McCrorie - £1.250m

So that leaves the following for the make up of that £18.990m “net”:

• A.Scott - £20.000m fee IN
• H.Massengo - £0.500m fee IN
• J.Knight - £1.750m fee OUT

Does that kinda make sense / add-up???

(***all fees guesstimates)