SecretSam Posted January 2 Report Share Posted January 2 4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: While pre 1992 some major issues existed as you say, otoh there was a Happy medium. Back then, at least clubs weren't listed on foreign Stock Exchanges, owned by oligarchs, Nation States etc. Matchday experience now is sterile, pre game..talking in the ground. Happy medium between the 2 maybe 1990s, early 2000s. Beyond that.. The modern technical football when played with pace, precision and quality can be outstanding. Can be..but a half-done job can be truly soporific- see large chunks of yesterday and Norwich at home for 2. Where did I say modern football was perfect? All this nonsense about 'real football'. The game evolves over time, today's best teams play a particular style that works, like back when teams played hoofball - that worked, for a while. As you rightly say, it's about playing to the resources available - players, facilities, etc. As for the ownership, well that's another matter. Matchdays? I was able to take my kids to a game, there was no trouble, almost no police, it was perfectly pleasant and dry on a wet day. That's a huge advance over when I started going (late '70s). I'll take that sterile matchday every time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowshed Posted January 2 Report Share Posted January 2 12 minutes ago, Wade Wilson said: I just don’t get why people try to emulate Pep’s style, at all. For starters, Max O 'leary distributes sweeps and joins in like Ederson. Our CB's step into midfield and play as easily as John Stones forming a box midfield. Our wing backs invert and play the full length of the pitch. Our pivots distribute the ball as effortlessly as Busquets or Rodri. Our Fodens and Dokus and Grealishes drive to release. Our Iniestas and Xavis play in the half spaces. Our Messi plays the false nine. Maybe people who think teams are trying to emulate Peps style are talking bollocks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1team Posted January 2 Report Share Posted January 2 I watched Celtic Rangers at the weekend. I'd forgotten how entertaining football can be and the atmosphere was electric. 3 fantastic goals end to end game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRock Posted January 2 Report Share Posted January 2 (edited) A ‘simple game’, very much a Brian Clough-type view. One of the most successful managers in the history of the game. The modern game does, and the FA coaching badge-types certainly do have a tendency to over- complicate the game and put less emphasis on individual player management. Some with amazing natural talent, for whatever reason, just can’t either process in their heads adaptions to their game or physically implement them. Rashford a classic example - his natural talent wasted by over-coaching/thinking. Anis, I suspect, is the best example from our Club. Recruitment is key. We have in the past often recruited players who have played moderately successfully in one role, and then told them we want them to adapt to play another. Cornick, didn’t Nige say on the day we signed him, we think we can get him to play a totally different role to that he was accustomed? Some players can adapt, others can’t. Back to our recruitment strategy. About time we got it more consistently correct. If we are shopping bargain-basement and want to develop players - then make sure they have the mental and physical capacities to do that. Edited January 2 by RedRock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowshed Posted January 2 Report Share Posted January 2 (edited) 12 minutes ago, RedRock said: A ‘simple game’, very much a Brian Clough-type view. One of the most successful managers in the history of the game. The modern game does, and the FA coaching badge-types certainly do have a tendency to over- complicate the game How have Brighton or a Man City over complicated football? Brighton play in non complex pre trained patterns to simplify their game. Man City concentrate on elements of the game using principles to govern the variables = Simplifying a game that is complex and chaotic. Edited January 2 by Cowshed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numero Uno Posted January 2 Report Share Posted January 2 10 minutes ago, Cowshed said: Max O 'leary distributes sweeps and joins in like Ederson. Our CB's step into midfield and play as easily as John Stones forming a box midfield. Our wing backs invert and play the full length of the pitch. Our pivots distribute the ball as effortlessly as Busquets or Rodri. Our Fodens and Dokus and Grealishes drive to release. Our Iniestas and Xavis play in the half spaces. Our Messi plays the false nine. Maybe people who think teams are trying to emulate Peps style are talking bollocks. Very good point, that wasn't quite what was happening yesterday (except for the Max O'Leary bit obviously).......................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrumpys Dietary Advisor.. Posted January 2 Author Report Share Posted January 2 19 minutes ago, SecretSam said: Jumpers for goalposts...pitches like ploughed fields, one sub only, slow, lumpen football (see pitches issue), appalling tackles and dire facilities. Ah, the good old days. Utter bollocks. Like everything, football has evolved re pitches, tackles etc which is good, but not all of it is for the better. Football has always been the game for the working classes. It has now become the province of all, which is fine, but it is the working man that makes football enjoyable and watchable. The North, and especially the Midlands haven't completely lost or forgotten that yet. I've been on The Holt End when it was at full steam and that really was an experience never to be forgotten. Wolves are similar Football is tribal, you love your team, it's everything that's what makes it but the truth is, the game is being sterlised for those with a passing interest, without total commitment for the "match day experience", a phrase I always find an abomination when applied to football So, take away what makes football, and it slowly dies 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted January 2 Report Share Posted January 2 22 minutes ago, SecretSam said: Where did I say modern football was perfect? All this nonsense about 'real football'. The game evolves over time, today's best teams play a particular style that works, like back when teams played hoofball - that worked, for a while. As you rightly say, it's about playing to the resources available - players, facilities, etc. As for the ownership, well that's another matter. Matchdays? I was able to take my kids to a game, there was no trouble, almost no police, it was perfectly pleasant and dry on a wet day. That's a huge advance over when I started going (late '70s). I'll take that sterile matchday every time. Not a fan of hoofball to say the least but direct football can be exciting and it bring an intensity to proceedings. Agreed. Agreed. Yeah can grant you and tbh late 70s before my time that thete have been improvements for the better since the late 1970s and 1980s but some aspects have been lost too. *All-seater *Ticket prices vs inflation..we are not even one of the worst, especially at ST level, it's very much a game wide problem though, a cost of doing business). (Safe Standing is welcome but should be bigger and perhaps more central). *Can't drink in view of pitch. Outdated. *2 hours of pre-match music. Some is fine but turn it off 10-15 mins before and let some atmosphere build naturally. *Reading out the visiting side first...maybe it's always been the way, maybe it is recency bias on my part. Dunno how good a tone it sets- seems very Americanised. Downsy..ha enough said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numero Uno Posted January 2 Report Share Posted January 2 Just now, Cowshed said: How have Brighton or a Man City over complicated football? Brighton play in a non complex pre trained patterns to simplify their game. Man City concentrate on elements of the game using principles to govern the variables = Simplifying a game that is complex and chaotic. If you have top quality players the most "complicated looking" football seems very straightforward for them to play (practiced and ingrained rules, scenario's, repetition and Liam's favourite word, behaviours allied to the technical ability of the players implementing it) and if you don't then trying to somehow emulate it (I'm not saying we are trying to be Man City Mark II) can be very complicated for players and just produces something that looks messy (not Messi) and is ineffective. It makes players look worse than they are and produces results worse than they should be. Whether you look at it from the coaching angle and convey eloquently or whether that's not your thing and you are the bloke who simply enjoys sinking five pints and singing at the football all afternoon it still comes down to the same thing however it's put........play and improve in a way that suits the attributes and abilities of your playing staff!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrumpys Dietary Advisor.. Posted January 2 Author Report Share Posted January 2 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Cowshed said: Max O 'leary distributes sweeps and joins in like Ederson. Our CB's step into midfield and play as easily as John Stones forming a box midfield. Our wing backs invert and play the full length of the pitch. Our pivots distribute the ball as effortlessly as Busquets or Rodri. Our Fodens and Dokus and Grealishes drive to release. Our Iniestas and Xavis play in the half spaces. Our Messi plays the false nine. Maybe people who think teams are trying to emulate Peps style are talking bollocks. And you've just validated my point. We don't have any of these so why try to play like we do ..? Edited January 2 by Scrumpys Dietary Advisor.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Wilson Posted January 2 Report Share Posted January 2 29 minutes ago, Cowshed said: Max O 'leary distributes sweeps and joins in like Ederson. Our CB's step into midfield and play as easily as John Stones forming a box midfield. Our wing backs invert and play the full length of the pitch. Our pivots distribute the ball as effortlessly as Busquets or Rodri. Our Fodens and Dokus and Grealishes drive to release. Our Iniestas and Xavis play in the half spaces. Our Messi plays the false nine. Maybe people who think teams are trying to emulate Peps style are talking bollocks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonBristolian Posted January 2 Report Share Posted January 2 (edited) Going against the grain a little on this thread but I don't fully agree - either that it's the fault of playing Guardiola-ball or what we're talking about is Guardiola-ball at all. Where the Tiki Taka approach got its most criticism entertainment-wise was Spain in the 2010 World Cup. That gets associated with Barca due to Pep being the Barca manager and the number of Barca players but the way Spain played was very different to how Barcelona played under Guardiola or or how Bayern or Man City play under him now. That's really where this notion of passing for passing's sake comes from. (Spain scored 8 goals in 7 matches whereas the 2009-10 Barcelona team scored 98 in 38 - not far off three goals a game.) Really that Spain team - far more than anything Guardiola ever did - is why Tiki Taka is associated with low scoring. However I don't think what we play is Guardiola-style football or that that is the reason for the results. At our worst, we look much more like another team at the 2010 World Cup - England under Capello. Our players pass it around the defence not because of any tactical master plan but because the midfield and forwards don't move enough to provide passing options. "Guardiola ball" is all about clever tactical movement to create space and passing options. That's the absolute opposite of what we do at our worst. And our tactical weakness under Manning is the same one we had under Pearson in games such as Preston at home on the first day. We do not have players with the the creativity or ideas to break down teams that sit back and defend against us. Our players work hard and play doggedly against stronger opponents but cannot break down defensive teams. But where I disagree with the OP is where the horse is and where cart is. I don't think we struggle against defensive teams because we pass the ball around at the back. I think we end up passing the ball around the back because we struggle against defensive teams. With football tactics, I don't think there ever is one simple answer to what the "way" is. Different answer suit different teams. I think our players are certainly better with a possession game than they would be with a route one-game but I think a direct counter approach best suits the players we currently have. And, in fairness, we've played that at times under Manning as we have under Pearson. The problem is you can't counter-attack a team that isn't attacking you. And we don't know what to do when teams give us the ball and challenge us to attack them. Edited January 2 by LondonBristolian 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonBristolian Posted January 2 Report Share Posted January 2 2 minutes ago, Scrumpys Dietary Advisor.. said: And you've just validated my point. We don't have any of these so why they to play like we do ..? The very simple answer is they don't. Our team does not in any way try to emulate Pep's style. The misconception is that passing the ball around defence is somehow Guardola-esque when it is simply how uncreative teams have ended up playing against defensive opposition since long before Pep's time. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowshed Posted January 2 Report Share Posted January 2 2 minutes ago, Wade Wilson said: 53 minutes ago, Wade Wilson said: I just don’t get why people try to emulate Pep’s style, at all. Valdes, Neur, Ederson ...O'leary. From the Keeper out Bristol City and Liam Manning are not trying to emulate Guardiola's possession and positional football. Max O'leary as a good pro as he does not have the aptitude for it. And we can continue throughout BCFC XI and squad in the same manner. Liam Manning is NOT trying to emulate Pepe Guardiola's football. Pep Guardiloa does not have a style, styles change, Guardiola's possessional positional based football, changes little. Doku's inclusion this season has not changed the teams principles, the team still build through thirds and plays positionally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supersonic Robin Posted January 2 Report Share Posted January 2 16 hours ago, BS3_RED said: Im old school ( when did that happen) and as I said to a similar aged bloke next to me at Birmingham, I would rather lose trying to win than draw playing not to lose. I really think its a generational thing. People make claims like this quite often, but I really don't believe anyone who says this at all. I've never seen a fanbase of any club who are frequently losing games express that they're happy that their team are "at least going for it", nor have I seen them suggest it's preferable to being higher up the table through drawing more games. Under Pearson in 2021/22 we were a team who were frequently involved in attacking high-scoring games. The sentiment on here at the time certainly wasn't "I don't mind conceding so many goals because the games are exciting!". Let's not be naive, in reality results are what matter most to people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS3_RED Posted January 2 Report Share Posted January 2 1 minute ago, Supersonic Robin said: People make claims like this quite often, but I really don't believe anyone who says this at all. I've never seen a fanbase of any club who are frequently losing games express that they're happy that their team are "at least going for it", nor have I seen them suggest it's preferable to being higher up the table through drawing more games. Under Pearson in 2021/22 we were a team who were frequently involved in attacking high-scoring games. The sentiment on here at the time certainly wasn't "I don't mind conceding so many goals because the games are exciting!". Let's not be naive, in reality results are what matter most to people. Just my opinion buddy and that's how I feel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowshed Posted January 2 Report Share Posted January 2 11 minutes ago, Scrumpys Dietary Advisor.. said: And you've just validated my point. We don't have any of these so why try to play like we do ..? If I have validated your point, starting from O'leary could you highlight the similarities between Bristol City's and Man City's build up play? If in the first third BCFC are not playing with the same principles the team cannot be playing Guardiola ball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Posted January 2 Report Share Posted January 2 45 minutes ago, 1team said: I watched Celtic Rangers at the weekend. I'd forgotten how entertaining football can be and the atmosphere was electric. 3 fantastic goals end to end game. Would be better with away fans. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supersonic Robin Posted January 2 Report Share Posted January 2 2 minutes ago, BS3_RED said: Just my opinion buddy and that's how I feel. Appreciate what you're saying, but if it actually came to fruition and we were in the bottom 6 because we were losing 4-3 every week, do you really think you'd still feel that way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrumpys Dietary Advisor.. Posted January 2 Author Report Share Posted January 2 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Cowshed said: If I have validated your point, starting from O'leary could you highlight the similarities between Bristol City's and Man City's build up play? If in the first third BCFC are not playing with the same principles the team cannot be playing Guardiola ball. Simple. In essence, Guardiola Ball is all about endless probing and recycling of the ball until they find a way through. On Monday, we did the endless recycling bit but that is mostly where it ends... Edited January 2 by Scrumpys Dietary Advisor.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS3_RED Posted January 2 Report Share Posted January 2 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Supersonic Robin said: Appreciate what you're saying, but if it actually came to fruition and we were in the bottom 6 because we were losing 4-3 every week, do you really think you'd still feel that way? Unlikely due to the fact if you were scoring three every week you would no doubt win some games and with three points for a win you probably would not get relegated. Think of it this way...3 draws is three point. One win and two defeats is 3 points. With three points for a win a team that scores goals with get points. Edited January 2 by BS3_RED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merrick's Marvels Posted January 2 Report Share Posted January 2 39 minutes ago, Cowshed said: Man City concentrate on elements of the game using principles to govern the variables Thanks, Liam! PS. You, and your football, are dull as. Any chance of some fun? Happy New Year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numero Uno Posted January 2 Report Share Posted January 2 1 minute ago, Supersonic Robin said: Appreciate what you're saying, but if it actually came to fruition and we were in the bottom 6 because we were losing 4-3 every week, do you really think you'd still feel that way? It's never that simple. There isn't a rule that says you only have two choices i.e. play crap football and win or try and entertain and lose. Yesterday we played crap and lost!! At Watford we played well and won. We need to find a happy medium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowshed Posted January 2 Report Share Posted January 2 1 minute ago, Scrumpys Dietary Advisor.. said: Simple. You could not highlighted even ONE pattern of build up from the Keeper . What is O'learys role in the 3-4-2 -1 Bristol City DON'T play? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supersonic Robin Posted January 2 Report Share Posted January 2 1 minute ago, BS3_RED said: Unlikely due to the fact if you were scoring three every week you would no doubt win some games and with three points for a win you probably would not get relegated. (Note: by the same logic, you'd probably be relegated conceding 4 every week???) So in other words, you'd be fine with it as long as the results were okay...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted January 2 Report Share Posted January 2 5 minutes ago, Numero Uno said: It's never that simple. There isn't a rule that says you only have two choices i.e. play crap football and win or try and entertain and lose. Yesterday we played crap and lost!! At Watford we played well and won. We need to find a happy medium. Announce Doris Stokes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowshed Posted January 2 Report Share Posted January 2 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said: Thanks, Liam! PS. You, and your football, are dull as. Any chance of some fun? Happy New Year. I am not a Liam, or the boss of BCFC. My favourite City team was Leaning, Bailey, Llewelyn Humphries, Rennie, Newman, Shelton, Smith, Gavin, Taylor and Carnage as your Bountyhunter put it... But the point I was making as a point, and you avoided was about how modern coaches can simplify football. Our great but not so modern Sir Joe Jordan went plan A and not much else. Edited January 2 by Cowshed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numero Uno Posted January 2 Report Share Posted January 2 6 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Announce Doris Stokes! If we had Glenn in charge................................ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Wilson Posted January 2 Report Share Posted January 2 28 minutes ago, Cowshed said: Valdes, Neur, Ederson ...O'leary. From the Keeper out Bristol City and Liam Manning are not trying to emulate Guardiola's possession and positional football. Max O'leary as a good pro as he does not have the aptitude for it. And we can continue throughout BCFC XI and squad in the same manner. Liam Manning is NOT trying to emulate Pepe Guardiola's football. Pep Guardiloa does not have a style, styles change, Guardiola's possessional positional based football, changes little. Doku's inclusion this season has not changed the teams principles, the team still build through thirds and plays positionally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted January 2 Report Share Posted January 2 (edited) Just now, Numero Uno said: If we had Glenn in charge................................ Eileen “B”rewery!! Edited January 2 by Davefevs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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