Safe standing

[Phileas Fogg]

The club don’t want it. They (wrongly) associate atmosphere with trouble. They’d much rather win “family club of the year” or “best social media in the EFL” than us be known for AG being vociferous and atmospheric.

They had a unique opportunity to design the layout of the ground to suit everyone - and if they truly wanted atmosphere they’d have put home fans in the Atyeo with away fans in the nearest adjacent corner of the Dolman/Lansdown.

This tweet (in the context of what this was about) should remind people about what the hierarchy really think.. 

[Barrs Court Red]

5 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

The club don’t want it. They (wrongly) associate atmosphere with trouble. They’d much rather win “family club of the year” or “best social media in the EFL” than us be known for AG being vociferous and atmospheric.

They had a unique opportunity to design the layout of the ground to suit everyone - and if they truly wanted atmosphere they’d have put home fans in the Atyeo with away fans in the nearest adjacent corner of the Dolman/Lansdown.

This tweet (in the context of what this was about) should remind people about what the hierarchy really think.. 

Was that after banning England flags at the Cardiff game? 

[Phileas Fogg]

1 minute ago, Barrs Court Red said:

Was that after banning England flags at the Cardiff game? 

Either that or about the banning of an ‘East End Ultras’ flag on a St. George’s cross 

[Redtucks]

5 hours ago, Countryfile said:

The fact is that at WHU pretty much all fans stood, myself included, only sat down when the physio was performing an operation without anaesthetic on the injured players, and at half time.

But was that because they all chose to stand, or because everyone in front of them stood and they were therefore forced to stand in order to see?

 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Redtucks said:

But was that because they all chose to stand, or because everyone in front of them stood and they were therefore forced to stand in order to see?

 

Yes, some myself included were forced to stand, I don’t disagree with you, my point was that SS is just that safe.

In virtually every Prem game and many other games you see fans (particularly away fans) standing so incorporating safe standing areas is just the right thing to do.

Is there a club that forces people to sit where large numbers chose not to?
 

I see people standing at the back of the South stand and at the back of the Dolman in every game, small numbers but they stand nevertheless.

[italian dave]

18 hours ago, Countryfile said:

 

The fact is that at WHU pretty much all fans stood, myself included, only sat down when the physio was performing an operation without anaesthetic on the injured players, and at half time.

Have you ever tried choosing to sit down when the person in front of you is standing up?

Edit: sorry, must learn to read to the end of a thread before replying to a post! 

Edited January 9 by italian dave

[Davefevs]

Just now, italian dave said:

Have you ever tried choosing to sit down when the person in front of you is standing up?

You never been to a German Ooompa night at the Bierkeller!

[italian dave]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

You never been to a German Ooompa night at the Bierkeller!

That brings lying down into the equation too, doesn’t it?!!

[beaverface]

20 hours ago, Countryfile said:

Absolutely.

The club could quite easily send an email to all ST holders in the SS and ask the question.

Make it simple yes or no, non replies count as not bothered either way.
 

The fact is that at WHU pretty much all fans stood, myself included, only sat down when the physio was performing an operation without anaesthetic on the injured players, and at half time.

What about that extra tier on top of the SS, was that ever in the plans?

I thought it was only ever a discussion about whether executive boxes should go along the back of the SS rather than an extra tier.

I'm pretty sure the original plans had boxes, but got removed at fans request.

I also thought the concourse in the SS was meant to have a mezzanine floor also, but that never happened either.

[Blagdon red]

20 hours ago, Davefevs said:

What I found surprising from the Fan’s Forum, was there was obvious frustration from several (might just be those who shout the loudest) that the way we house our fans is sub-optimal.

Nobody thinks you can just shift people around.

But a good “business” would’ve taken these views on board and proactively kicked off a consultation….or at least committed to doing so.  Even if they then sub-contracted that the Supporters Trust to do on their behalf.

They’d then know the true feeling and could take onboard to decide of some form of change was required.

For me (and the seating has absolutely no impact for me in A4) the fact that they didn’t commit during that meeting, shows most of the FF is really lip-service (wasted PR exercise).  That was a really easy win, for JL to state - “I’m gonna kick off a survey” or whatever.  He didn’t.  Epic fail imho. That’s letting supporters down.

In JL's defence, I should say that I 'reached out' to him following his comments at the Q&A session about being open to exploring new ideas surrounding standing/atmosphere, and he put me in touch with Tom Rawcliffe, with whom I then had a meeting.

It's all very early days, but the wheels are in motion for a possible consultation exercise, almost certainly involving the SC&T, which may or may not lead to some changes in time for the 2025/26 season. It has to be that far away so that, IF the consultation shows a desire for change, this can be organised and communicated well in advance of an annual round of season ticket renewals.

So, the topic hasn't been ignored. 

[Wedontplayinblue]

28 minutes ago, Blagdon red said:

In JL's defence, I should say that I 'reached out' to him following his comments at the Q&A session about being open to exploring new ideas surrounding standing/atmosphere, and he put me in touch with Tom Rawcliffe, with whom I then had a meeting.

It's all very early days, but the wheels are in motion for a possible consultation exercise, almost certainly involving the SC&T, which may or may not lead to some changes in time for the 2025/26 season. It has to be that far away so that, IF the consultation shows a desire for change, this can be organised and communicated well in advance of an annual round of season ticket renewals.

So, the topic hasn't been ignored. 

Blagdon, out of interest what type of topics were already discussed? 

What are you or the supporters trust classing as a desire for change and what might they entail? 

For something to be done and dusted in 18 months seems slightly ambitious?

 

Edited January 9 by Wedontplayinblue

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Blagdon red said:

In JL's defence, I should say that I 'reached out' to him following his comments at the Q&A session about being open to exploring new ideas surrounding standing/atmosphere, and he put me in touch with Tom Rawcliffe, with whom I then had a meeting.

It's all very early days, but the wheels are in motion for a possible consultation exercise, almost certainly involving the SC&T, which may or may not lead to some changes in time for the 2025/26 season. It has to be that far away so that, IF the consultation shows a desire for change, this can be organised and communicated well in advance of an annual round of season ticket renewals.

So, the topic hasn't been ignored. 

The point I was making, is that he wasn’t proactive at the Fans Forum, and your post confirms that it took you to contact him afterwards.  Not the other way around.

For me the FF was an easy opportunity for him to get on the “front foot” and he didn’t!

I’m pleased that you took the bill by the horns though, so thank you.

[Blagdon red]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

The point I was making, is that he wasn’t proactive at the Fans Forum, and your post confirms that it took you to contact him afterwards.  Not the other way around.

For me the FF was an easy opportunity for him to get on the “front foot” and he didn’t!

I’m pleased that you took the bill by the horns though, so thank you.

Point taken. Yes, it was probably an opportunity missed. He did though respond to my mail, which wasn't a given.

[Blagdon red]

3 hours ago, Wedontplayinblue said:

Blagdon, out of interest what type of topics were already discussed? 

What are you or the supporters trust classing as a desire for change and what might they entail? 

For something to be done and dusted in 18 months seems slightly ambitious?

 

As I said, it's very early days, so my discussion was very non-specific, In any case, the whole point of consultation is to find out the views of as many fans as possible, not just of those with a particular interest in this topic.

18 months is ample time to do that and to put in place the necessary arrangements should it transpire that a large percentage of our fellow fans would support changes being made on this front.

[Rocking Red Cyril]

On 08/01/2024 at 09:12, riggers said:

Went to West Ham yesterday and experienced my 1st safe standing at a football match. It was brilliant and much better than sitting. I’m in my 60’s and a season ticket holder for longer than I can remember. I would love to see the whole South stand become safe standing, which would bring back the atmosphere that we saw yesterday. 

for those that have not experienced it, I will try to explain why I preferred it to sitting. 

You still get your allocated seat so this is your position and yours alone, so will be next to your mates or partner. You can see easily over the person in front as modern stands are much steeper that the old terraces the we used to stand on. The railing in front of you is at a good height to lean on and when someone wants to go to the toilet or get food etc, they just walk past you. No having to stand up or swing your knees to one side to let them past. Also, when celebrating a goal it much safe than having a seat at knee height in front of you (granted yesterday’s celebrations were due to the occasion) as you could jump and not fear of falling over. You can sit before the match starts, during half time & during long delays when the physio comes on.

we should allow all fan’s currently sitting in the south stand who would not like to experience safe standing to be relocated to the Dolman stand or upper tier of the West stand and I’m sure there’s some fans from those areas would swap for safe standing in the South stand.

I know this is unlikely to happen, but I’m sure if we did get to the premiership. Most people in the South stand would be standing unsafely anyway.

Does this not depend on the forward plans of our owner.

[Rocking Red Cyril]

On 08/01/2024 at 16:40, Davefevs said:

Yes, remember that, in fact the pilot in the corner of the Williams / Atyeo was just above the wheelchair area we used to occupy.

Yep, no fan thinks that, but the club….well that’s a different matter!

But does it not come with other issues

Away fans in upper Lansdown,we have both ends safe standing, nest egg for new players, 

But he owns the club 

[Phileas Fogg]

8 hours ago, Blagdon red said:

In JL's defence, I should say that I 'reached out' to him following his comments at the Q&A session about being open to exploring new ideas surrounding standing/atmosphere, and he put me in touch with Tom Rawcliffe, with whom I then had a meeting.

It's all very early days, but the wheels are in motion for a possible consultation exercise, almost certainly involving the SC&T, which may or may not lead to some changes in time for the 2025/26 season. It has to be that far away so that, IF the consultation shows a desire for change, this can be organised and communicated well in advance of an annual round of season ticket renewals.

So, the topic hasn't been ignored. 

That’s encouraging. Sunday with a packed end behind a goal, which no doubt was a boost to the team, should evidence the marginal gain partisan home support can generate - reassuring to hear the club might consider changing things.

[Phileas Fogg]

8 hours ago, Blagdon red said:

In JL's defence, I should say that I 'reached out' to him following his comments at the Q&A session about being open to exploring new ideas surrounding standing/atmosphere, and he put me in touch with Tom Rawcliffe, with whom I then had a meeting.

It's all very early days, but the wheels are in motion for a possible consultation exercise, almost certainly involving the SC&T, which may or may not lead to some changes in time for the 2025/26 season. It has to be that far away so that, IF the consultation shows a desire for change, this can be organised and communicated well in advance of an annual round of season ticket renewals.

So, the topic hasn't been ignored. 

To add to this, when the time comes, i hope the SC&T can find a way to include younger fans.

As voting in general elections shows, older voters (which translated to a football context most likely means people who prefer to sit) are disproportionately represented thus skewing results. This doesn’t necessarily represent the true clientele on a match day.

[ZiderEyed]

Having experienced safe standing all over Europe, and having undertaken doctoral research on atmosphere last year in Stockholm and Helsinki, I am convinced that the post-Hillsborough all-seater deal has destroyed the uniue symbiosis between football fans in England and on-pitch moments, and instead allowed for the rise in ultras culture, one that is separate from the occasion of the match. 

We need safe standing to renew the atmosphere and culture in English football, lest capital forces dilute it further. 

[Bristol Rob]

Has anyone reached out to the rugby supporters?

A few I know (season tickets, South stand) miss standing.

Might add a bit more weight to any discussion if it included them as well.

[Barrs Court Red]

15 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

Has anyone reached out to the rugby supporters?

A few I know (season tickets, South stand) miss standing.

Might add a bit more weight to any discussion if it included them as well.

Rugby fans were promised standing as a carrot for switching grounds. 

[Blagdon red]

18 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

To add to this, when the time comes, i hope the SC&T can find a way to include younger fans.

As voting in general elections shows, older voters (which translated to a football context most likely means people who prefer to sit) are disproportionately represented thus skewing results. This doesn’t necessarily represent the true clientele on a match day.

A valid point. Reaching the younger demographic is a challenge that we've faced with other surveys. 

[The Bard]

17 hours ago, Barrs Court Red said:

Rugby fans were promised standing as a carrot for switching grounds. 

Ludicrously, standing is legal at rugby but Ashton Gate Stadium will not facilitate it. It's not legal at football and Ashton Gate Stadium do facilitate it.

At rugby People who go in the corner all sit. 

I have a ST in the middle of the SS for rugby and we have occasionally gone in the corner. Unless we find a place at the back we get tutted at and told to sit down. 

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 minutes ago, The Bard said:

Ludicrously, standing is legal at rugby but Ashton Gate Stadium will not facilitate it. It's not legal at football and Ashton Gate Stadium do facilitate it.

At rugby People who go in the corner all sit. 

I have a ST in the middle of the SS for rugby and we have occasionally gone in the corner. Unless we find a place at the back we get tutted at and told to sit down. 

 

 

Weird that as most rugby grounds have or had proper terraces!

(I know football used to and for a while there was the legislation gap).

[Street red]

West ham was great standing felt like old and you have a seat at half time. The entire south stand should be safe standing.

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, Street red said:

West ham was great standing felt like old and you have a seat at half time. The entire south stand should be safe standing.

Probably needs sign off at a number of levels but that notwithstanding tend to agree.

Top half Safe Standing, bottom half Standing maybe more realistic..also would be good if something could be done with E34.

[Barrs Court Red]

2 hours ago, The Bard said:

Ludicrously, standing is legal at rugby but Ashton Gate Stadium will not facilitate it. It's not legal at football and Ashton Gate Stadium do facilitate it.

At rugby People who go in the corner all sit. 

I have a ST in the middle of the SS for rugby and we have occasionally gone in the corner. Unless we find a place at the back we get tutted at and told to sit down. 

 

 

It’s laughable, it really is.  Hopefully they advertise it as a standing area at some point.

Makes me chuckle that standing isn’t allowed, yet getting up constantly for more pints and no one bats an eyelid

[Phileas Fogg]

1 hour ago, Street red said:

West ham was great standing felt like old and you have a seat at half time. The entire south stand should be safe standing.

The best thing they could’ve done for atmosphere is made the Atyeo safe standing (and that the home end) with away fans in the nearest adjacent corner of Dolman or Lansdown.

The boneheads in charge assumed putting our vocal support physically as far away as possible from away support would be a better catalyst for atmosphere ?

[Mr Popodopolous]

9 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

The best thing they could’ve done for atmosphere is made the Atyeo safe standing (and that the home end) with away fans in the nearest adjacent corner of Dolman or Lansdown.

The boneheads in charge assumed putting our vocal support physically as far away as possible from away support would be a better catalyst for atmosphere ?

Broadly agree PF. Albeit I would query certain bits.

The allocation rule is about 2k or 10% of capacity at Championship level, whichever is lower. 2 blocks of the Dolman or Lansdown then but manageable...

...Promoted and it's 10% of capacity or 3k, whichever is lower. 3 blocks of the Dolman? I forget the capacity of the Lower Lansdown.

When we had the reduced capacity we could have gone to 1,500-1,600 when the Lansdown was still being done. An exemption for that period, normal rules to apply post the completion of the rebuild.

As we know, up to 15% of capacity for the FA Cup.

In some ways the whole Atyeo future proofs all 3 of the scenarios not that I especially like it but I'm struggling to align a way around the 3.

Secondly. Probably a Safety thing, or perceived Safety thing. Perhaps the dreaded SAG weren't too happy and club seeking to maximise revenue and minimise costs..well less stewards, security and police needed as I'm sure we both know.

Edited January 10 by Mr Popodopolous

[Phileas Fogg]

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Broadly agree PF. Albeit I would query certain bits.

The allocation rule is about 2k or 10% of capacity at Championship level, whichever is lower. 2 blocks of the Dolman or Lansdown then but manageable...

...Promoted and it's 10% of capacity or 3k, whichever is lower. 3 blocks of the Dolman? I forget the capacity of the Lower Lansdown.

When we had the reduced capacity we could have gone to 1,500-1,600 when the Lansdown was still being done. An exemption for that period, normal rules to apply post the completion of the rebuild.

As we know, up to 15% of capacity for the FA Cup.

In some ways the whole Atyeo future proofs all 3 of the scenarios not that I especially like it but I'm struggling to align a way around the 3.

Secondly. Probably a Safety thing, or perceived Safety thing. Perhaps the dreaded SAG weren't too happy and club seeking to maximise revenue and minimise costs..well less stewards, security and police needed as I'm sure we both know.

I must admit I didn’t read all that because I knew what you were going to say. 

I’m only interested in the end result - and the club messed that up.