Safe standing

[riggers]

Went to West Ham yesterday and experienced my 1st safe standing at a football match. It was brilliant and much better than sitting. I’m in my 60’s and a season ticket holder for longer than I can remember. I would love to see the whole South stand become safe standing, which would bring back the atmosphere that we saw yesterday. 

for those that have not experienced it, I will try to explain why I preferred it to sitting. 

You still get your allocated seat so this is your position and yours alone, so will be next to your mates or partner. You can see easily over the person in front as modern stands are much steeper that the old terraces the we used to stand on. The railing in front of you is at a good height to lean on and when someone wants to go to the toilet or get food etc, they just walk past you. No having to stand up or swing your knees to one side to let them past. Also, when celebrating a goal it much safe than having a seat at knee height in front of you (granted yesterday’s celebrations were due to the occasion) as you could jump and not fear of falling over. You can sit before the match starts, during half time & during long delays when the physio comes on.

we should allow all fan’s currently sitting in the south stand who would not like to experience safe standing to be relocated to the Dolman stand or upper tier of the West stand and I’m sure there’s some fans from those areas would swap for safe standing in the South stand.

I know this is unlikely to happen, but I’m sure if we did get to the premiership. Most people in the South stand would be standing unsafely anyway.

[Red Skin]

Thankfully, the powers that be have finally faced up to what really happened at Hillsborough and admitted the real reasons were poor policing.   It's time now to revisit some of the decision made at the time made under false pretences, like safe standing, that have taken some of the fun, enjoyment and atmosphere out of going the game.   

[Mr Popodopolous]

We definitely need a bigger area for it IMO, we have 1-1.5k in the corner of the South Stand but the demand would be there for more.

[exAtyeoMax]

2 hours ago, riggers said:

Went to West Ham yesterday and experienced my 1st safe standing at a football match. It was brilliant and much better than sitting. I’m in my 60’s and a season ticket holder for longer than I can remember. I would love to see the whole South stand become safe standing, which would bring back the atmosphere that we saw yesterday. 

for those that have not experienced it, I will try to explain why I preferred it to sitting. 

You still get your allocated seat so this is your position and yours alone, so will be next to your mates or partner. You can see easily over the person in front as modern stands are much steeper that the old terraces the we used to stand on. The railing in front of you is at a good height to lean on and when someone wants to go to the toilet or get food etc, they just walk past you. No having to stand up or swing your knees to one side to let them past. Also, when celebrating a goal it much safe than having a seat at knee height in front of you (granted yesterday’s celebrations were due to the occasion) as you could jump and not fear of falling over. You can sit before the match starts, during half time & during long delays when the physio comes on.

we should allow all fan’s currently sitting in the south stand who would not like to experience safe standing to be relocated to the Dolman stand or upper tier of the West stand and I’m sure there’s some fans from those areas would swap for safe standing in the South stand.

I know this is unlikely to happen, but I’m sure if we did get to the premiership. Most people in the South stand would be standing unsafely anyway.

I don't want to be relocated thank you very much. The only way I'll relocate is if I can go back and sit in the Atyeo. I don't want to sit on the side. I'm only 5'3'' so not sure if the rake of the SS is sufficient for me to be able to see well. There are plenty of fans in SS who don't want to stand.

I didn't have a problem with standing yesterday with the rail, much better.

[BrizzleRed]

2 hours ago, riggers said:

Went to West Ham yesterday and experienced my 1st safe standing at a football match. It was brilliant and much better than sitting. I’m in my 60’s and a season ticket holder for longer than I can remember. I would love to see the whole South stand become safe standing, which would bring back the atmosphere that we saw yesterday. 

for those that have not experienced it, I will try to explain why I preferred it to sitting. 

You still get your allocated seat so this is your position and yours alone, so will be next to your mates or partner. You can see easily over the person in front as modern stands are much steeper that the old terraces the we used to stand on. The railing in front of you is at a good height to lean on and when someone wants to go to the toilet or get food etc, they just walk past you. No having to stand up or swing your knees to one side to let them past. Also, when celebrating a goal it much safe than having a seat at knee height in front of you (granted yesterday’s celebrations were due to the occasion) as you could jump and not fear of falling over. You can sit before the match starts, during half time & during long delays when the physio comes on.

we should allow all fan’s currently sitting in the south stand who would not like to experience safe standing to be relocated to the Dolman stand or upper tier of the West stand and I’m sure there’s some fans from those areas would swap for safe standing in the South stand.

I know this is unlikely to happen, but I’m sure if we did get to the premiership. Most people in the South stand would be standing unsafely anyway.

I’m with you all the way  

I’m mid 60’s and with dodgy knees, but loved it yesterday.  As you say, the barriers are the perfect height for leaning on, which was great for giving my knees a break.

All seating is like being in a cinema and I’m certain it badly affects the atmosphere …… let’s be honest, who goes to a cinema and sings?!!!

love to see at least the back half of the SS made safe standing, but completely understand it wouldn’t suit everyone.  After all the shifting of seats that were done during the stadium rebuild, I don’t know how safe standing could be introduced, without pissing off a significant number of supporters, sadly.

[Sir Geoff]

2 hours ago, riggers said:

Went to West Ham yesterday and experienced my 1st safe standing at a football match. It was brilliant and much better than sitting. I’m in my 60’s and a season ticket holder for longer than I can remember. I would love to see the whole South stand become safe standing, which would bring back the atmosphere that we saw yesterday. 

for those that have not experienced it, I will try to explain why I preferred it to sitting. 

You still get your allocated seat so this is your position and yours alone, so will be next to your mates or partner. You can see easily over the person in front as modern stands are much steeper that the old terraces the we used to stand on. The railing in front of you is at a good height to lean on and when someone wants to go to the toilet or get food etc, they just walk past you. No having to stand up or swing your knees to one side to let them past. Also, when celebrating a goal it much safe than having a seat at knee height in front of you (granted yesterday’s celebrations were due to the occasion) as you could jump and not fear of falling over. You can sit before the match starts, during half time & during long delays when the physio comes on.

we should allow all fan’s currently sitting in the south stand who would not like to experience safe standing to be relocated to the Dolman stand or upper tier of the West stand and I’m sure there’s some fans from those areas would swap for safe standing in the South stand.

I know this is unlikely to happen, but I’m sure if we did get to the premiership. Most people in the South stand would be standing unsafely anyway.

Brilliant, so that you can have numb knees as they are pressed against the back of the seat in front of you for 90 minutes or are squashed either side by some large bloke as the seats are too close together. Oh and don't forget the wind that whistles across the Dolman from the park and on a good day you are blinded by the sun.

No thanks I'm more than happy sitting (and singing) from the middle of the SS.

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, riggers said:

I know this is unlikely to happen, but I’m sure if we did get to the premiership. Most people in the South stand would be standing unsafely anyway.

I do totally agree with the post as a whole but this paragraph I wonder about. Time will tell but I'm not so sure it'll play out that way if we go up and the stand doesn't change as a whole

[ChippenhamRed]

7 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Brilliant, so that you can have numb knees as they are pressed against the back of the seat in front of you for 90 minutes or are squashed either side by some large bloke as the seats are too close together. Oh and don't forget the wind that whistles across the Dolman from the park and on a good day you are blinded by the sun.

No thanks I'm more than happy sitting (and singing) from the middle of the SS.

I'm not necessarily endorsing Riggers' idea, but you say it like the Lansdown Stand doesn't exist.

Given the popularity and positive impact on atmosphere of standing at football matches, one out of three home stands given over to standing doesn't sound that unreasonable to me.

Edited January 8 by ChippenhamRed

[Barrs Court Red]

As ever, the solution is to put in the rail seating where it was supposed to go, along the top of the South Stand and the lower Dolman.

[ChippenhamRed]

I think the only way to really agree on an approach to this is to formally poll the fan base to determine the interest level in standing, and whether the demand for standing areas currently exceeds supply. If so, increase it accordingly, if not, leave it as it is.

[22A]

1 hour ago, Red Skin said:

 It's time now to revisit some of the decision made at the time made under false pretences, like safe standing, that have taken some of the fun, enjoyment and atmosphere out of going the game.   

When  Lord Chief Justice Taylor compiled his report, who set his terms of reference for his recommendations? Apparently he was charged not only with making football grounds safer and to introduce "the gentryfication of the game". In other words get rid of standing people singing & shouting and replace them with neat rows of seated spectators who will merely applaud politely at the final whistle. The adverts during televised matches would be for beer, cigarettes(before being banned) and fast cars etc. Now the adverts will be for investment plans and tampons.

Further; why only football grounds? At Cricket and Rugby grounds, you can still stand with a beer in your hand. Is it because they are "establishment" sports? Really annoying if a stadium is used by different sports with the same Stewards monitoring the spectators.

[exAtyeoMax]

48 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I do totally agree with the post as a whole but this paragraph I wonder about. Time will tell but I'm not so sure it'll play out that way if we go up and the stand doesn't change as a whole

to be honest, I think I'd be on my last legs by the time we're promoted if we continue on the current trajectory! so the whole fanbase will be completely different

[exAtyeoMax]

47 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

I think the only way to really agree on an approach to this is to formally poll the fan base to determine the interest level in standing, and whether the demand for standing areas currently exceeds supply. If so, increase it accordingly, if not, leave it as it is.

I think a proper consultation is the only way. I don't mind being at the front in safe standing, as long as its not pitch side

[Mr Popodopolous]

29 minutes ago, 22A said:

When  Lord Chief Justice Taylor compiled his report, who set his terms of reference for his recommendations? Apparently he was charged not only with making football grounds safer and to introduce "the gentryfication of the game". In other words get rid of standing people singing & shouting and replace them with neat rows of seated spectators who will merely applaud politely at the final whistle. The adverts during televised matches would be for beer, cigarettes(before being banned) and fast cars etc. Now the adverts will be for investment plans and tampons.

Further; why only football grounds? At Cricket and Rugby grounds, you can still stand with a beer in your hand. Is it because they are "establishment" sports? Really annoying if a stadium is used by different sports with the same Stewards monitoring the spectators.

Taylor Report stated fans shouldn't be priced out iirc. It is a while since I've looked into it but part of this sounds unclear. Anyway clubs didn't take heed and ticket prices as we know skyrocketed especially at the top level.

Second bit, I partially agree but to be fair to Taylor the alcohol ban predated Hillsborough and was probably justified until the early to mid 2000s.

Now it's a huge overkill and or prejudicial. Should have been scrapped a good few years ago.

[Sir Geoff]

1 hour ago, ChippenhamRed said:

I'm not necessarily endorsing Riggers' idea, but you say it like the Lansdown Stand doesn't exist.

Given the popularity and positive impact on atmosphere of standing at football matches, one out of three home stands given over to standing doesn't sound that unreasonable to me.

Just saying, those are my experiences of the Dolman Stand. I wouldnt swap a decent seat in the SS for that.

[Topper 123]

I agree with the guy at start of post , the whole of south stand should be safe standing I’ve got bad knees and in my 70s but really enjoyed the stand/lean experience of safe standing which without doubt lent to fantastic atmosphere yesterday and May I remind people who say I don’t want to move from my seat , ITS NOT YOURS it’s the clubs your only renting and if it becomes safe standing and doesn’t suit you If your a true red you’ll just move to where it does suit EASY 

[Denbury Red]

52 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

I think a proper consultation is the only way. I don't mind being at the front in safe standing, as long as its not pitch side

So why should those who want to sit be made to sit pitch side???

What we should work towards is the structure it used to be in the 60's and 70's - allow Home and Away supporters who want to sit - sit, and those who want to stand - stand.

When I went away to many games in our Promotion year in 1975/76 we always 'sat' in the stands - mostly in an area for "away" fans - but there was always the "standing" area for away fans as well - mostly at the ends behind the goals.

 

Give fans the choice - but don't disadvantage one for the other.

 

The idea of the South Stand being all standing - would only work if you could fill it every week - otherwise extend the current Safe Standing area but also consider introducing other areas around the ground - perhaps the lower Dolman - if there was a need?

I personally don't like going to many away games - as there is no guarantee I can sit and have a good view - rather than currently either be forced to stand or made to sit at the front of the fans - and have to suffer a crap view.

[exAtyeoMax]

8 minutes ago, Denbury Red said:

So why should those who want to sit be made to sit pitch side???

What we should work towards is the structure it used to be in the 60's and 70's - allow Home and Away supporters who want to sit - sit, and those who want to stand - stand.

When I went away to many games in our Promotion year in 1975/76 we always 'sat' in the stands - mostly in an area for "away" fans - but there was always the "standing" area for away fans as well - mostly at the ends behind the goals.

 

Give fans the choice - but don't disadvantage one for the other.

 

The idea of the South Stand being all standing - would only work if you could fill it every week - otherwise extend the current Safe Standing area but also consider introducing other areas around the ground - perhaps the lower Dolman - if there was a need?

I personally don't like going to many away games - as there is no guarantee I can sit and have a good view - rather than currently either be forced to stand or made to sit at the front of the fans - and have to suffer a crap view.

if SS was at the front of the South Stand wouldn't it obscure the view of those sitting at the rear? If SS went along the back of the South Stand there would be a break between sitting and standing, those sitting would be halfway up the stand or thereabouts.

I'd rather sit but I don't want to sit at the sides. 

[22A]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Taylor Report stated fans shouldn't be priced out iirc. It is a while since I've looked into it but part of this sounds unclear. Anyway clubs didn't take eed and ticket prices as we know skyrocketed especially at the top level.

 

Correct; "Prices should not be more than £20.00 for the top level and slightly lower for the lower divisions".

The clubs converted terracing to seating and the improvements had to be paid for plus, seats= lower capacity, therefore admission had to increase for clubs to maintain their income level.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, ChippenhamRed said:

I think the only way to really agree on an approach to this is to formally poll the fan base to determine the interest level in standing, and whether the demand for standing areas currently exceeds supply. If so, increase it accordingly, if not, leave it as it is.

Absolutely.

The club could quite easily send an email to all ST holders in the SS and ask the question.

Make it simple yes or no, non replies count as not bothered either way.
 

The fact is that at WHU pretty much all fans stood, myself included, only sat down when the physio was performing an operation without anaesthetic on the injured players, and at half time.

What about that extra tier on top of the SS, was that ever in the plans?

[Mr Popodopolous]

14 minutes ago, 22A said:

Correct; "Prices should not be more than £20.00 for the top level and slightly lower for the lower divisions".

The clubs converted terracing to seating and the improvements had to be paid for plus, seats= lower capacity, therefore admission had to increase for clubs to maintain their income level.

Didn't clubs get assistance with conversion costs or was it all on them?

A fundamental change mandated probably should really have this.

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, Countryfile said:

Absolutely.

The club could quite easily send an email to all ST holders in the SS and ask the question.

Make it simple yes or no, non replies count as not bothered either way.
 

The fact is that at WHU pretty much all fans stood, myself included, only sat down when the physio was performing an operation without anaesthetic on the injured players, and at half time.

What about that extra tier on top of the SS, was that ever in the plans?

What I found surprising from the Fan’s Forum, was there was obvious frustration from several (might just be those who shout the loudest) that the way we house our fans is sub-optimal.

Nobody thinks you can just shift people around.

But a good “business” would’ve taken these views on board and proactively kicked off a consultation….or at least committed to doing so.  Even if they then sub-contracted that the Supporters Trust to do on their behalf.

They’d then know the true feeling and could take onboard to decide of some form of change was required.

For me (and the seating has absolutely no impact for me in A4) the fact that they didn’t commit during that meeting, shows most of the FF is really lip-service (wasted PR exercise).  That was a really easy win, for JL to state - “I’m gonna kick off a survey” or whatever.  He didn’t.  Epic fail imho. That’s letting supporters down.

[Red Exile]

I normally sit - fairly quietly - in the Dolman. Sat there for years. Yesterday I was up in the gods at one of the safe standing/standing rail seats - I stood the whole match. It was fine, I enjoyed it.

But to @Davefevs point I'd propose that a 'good business' wouldn't start from where we are. Indeed wouldn't have found itself where we are. It would be assessing the demand for standing rails like we experienced yesterday, and if it was believed that there was sufficient demand for these to be an attractive offer to enough fans it would then deciding where to place them. It would have a strategy that could be explained. Let's say that that there was believed to be demand, and that the best place to place these facilities was in Block Z (I'll make one up) - it wouldn't be deflected from implementing the strategy by the fact that people already sitting there might not like it. It would be offering them seats somewhere else in the belief that in the long run this was a better bet for the 'business'.

What we have had down the years of the AG development is a mess - where groups of fans get shuffled around with no obvious long term plan. In my view it's hard to believe that any football club would have developed a strategy in which what was for generations the standing room only club 'end' is full of people who only want to sit and the people who want to stand and sing are tucked in a corner out of the way! What's needed is a bit of leadership. Paint a picture and sell it to people.

[BrizzleRed]

13 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

What I found surprising from the Fan’s Forum, was there was obvious frustration from several (might just be those who shout the loudest) that the way we house our fans is sub-optimal.

Nobody thinks you can just shift people around.

But a good “business” would’ve taken these views on board and proactively kicked off a consultation….or at least committed to doing so.  Even if they then sub-contracted that the Supporters Trust to do on their behalf.

They’d then know the true feeling and could take onboard to decide of some form of change was required.

For me (and the seating has absolutely no impact for me in A4) the fact that they didn’t commit during that meeting, shows most of the FF is really lip-service (wasted PR exercise).  That was a really easy win, for JL to state - “I’m gonna kick off a survey” or whatever.  He didn’t.  Epic fail imho. That’s letting supporters down.

I’d add to that, even though Blagdon Red put a lot of work into potential future safe standing if it was subsequently approved, it never felt like SL was ever ‘on board’.

It would have been very easy when people were choosing their seats in the new stands, to tell them which rows were potentally earmarked for safe standing at a later date.  People could then have chosen their seats with that in mind.

[Topper 123]

I think there is a valid call for this safe standing area , and for me can only be in the south stand ( old east end ) I can’t see point of dolman having it , as I said for me the old east end is where we should be as an END for people to congregate and cheer on their team it’s always been the end and should return that way as fans scattered around ground in small groups has a negative effect as we seen yesterday with 50 + thousand West Ham spread around a  soulless stadium 

[Yozzarian]

I rarely go away but standing at the West Ham game yesterday felt just like being in the East End 1989/90 for my first season. I know going away amplifies excitement, as does the nature of that cup tie but I'm convinced that standing would help atmosphere. I was singing like the best of them at the London stadium but sat down, the game feels entirely more sedate. I think safe standing -well planned to cater to all tastes and those who can't or don't like standing - would transform football.

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Nobody thinks you can just shift people around.

Without going over old ground too much that’s exactly what the club did prior to the rebuilding taking place.

I and friends were turfed out of our chosen Atyeo seats for it to become a family area.

During the reconstruction we were then moved to the Williams.

After construction I bought STs in the lower Dolman off plan only to be told later that the plans were wrong and one of my seats didn’t exist when the rebuild was completed.

I haven’t quoted you on your fans forum writing, suffice it to say I think some very well intentioned fans are simply banging their heads against a wall when dealing with the club.

It belongs to Steve don’t ever think otherwise.

 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Red Exile said:

I normally sit - fairly quietly - in the Dolman. Sat there for years. Yesterday I was up in the gods at one of the safe standing/standing rail seats - I stood the whole match. It was fine, I enjoyed it.

But to @Davefevs point I'd propose that a 'good business' wouldn't start from where we are. Indeed wouldn't have found itself where we are. It would be assessing the demand for standing rails like we experienced yesterday, and if it was believed that there was sufficient demand for these to be an attractive offer to enough fans it would then deciding where to place them. It would have a strategy that could be explained. Let's say that that there was believed to be demand, and that the best place to place these facilities was in Block Z (I'll make one up) - it wouldn't be deflected from implementing the strategy by the fact that people already sitting there might not like it. It would be offering them seats somewhere else in the belief that in the long run this was a better bet for the 'business'.

What we have had down the years of the AG development is a mess - where groups of fans get shuffled around with no obvious long term plan. In my view it's hard to believe that any football club would have developed a strategy in which what was for generations the standing room only club 'end' is full of people who only want to sit and the people who want to stand and sing are tucked in a corner out of the way! What's needed is a bit of leadership. Paint a picture and sell it to people.

1 hour ago, BrizzleRed said:

I’d add to that, even though Blagdon Red put a lot of work into potential future safe standing if it was subsequently approved, it never felt like SL was ever ‘on board’.

It would have been very easy when people were choosing their seats in the new stands, to tell them which rows were potentally earmarked for safe standing at a later date.  People could then have chosen their seats with that in mind.

Yes, remember that, in fact the pilot in the corner of the Williams / Atyeo was just above the wheelchair area we used to occupy.

22 minutes ago, Countryfile said:

Without going over old ground too much that’s exactly what the club did prior to the rebuilding taking place.

I and friends were turfed out of our chosen Atyeo seats for it to become a family area.

During the reconstruction we were then moved to the Williams.

After construction I bought STs in the lower Dolman off plan only to be told later that the plans were wrong and one of my seats didn’t exist when the rebuild was completed.

I haven’t quoted you on your fans forum writing, suffice it to say I think some very well intentioned fans are simply banging their heads against a wall when dealing with the club.

It belongs to Steve don’t ever think otherwise.

 

Yep, no fan thinks that, but the club….well that’s a different matter!

[MarcusX]

7 hours ago, riggers said:

Went to West Ham yesterday and experienced my 1st safe standing at a football match. It was brilliant and much better than sitting. I’m in my 60’s and a season ticket holder for longer than I can remember. I would love to see the whole South stand become safe standing, which would bring back the atmosphere that we saw yesterday. 

for those that have not experienced it, I will try to explain why I preferred it to sitting. 

You still get your allocated seat so this is your position and yours alone, so will be next to your mates or partner. You can see easily over the person in front as modern stands are much steeper that the old terraces the we used to stand on. The railing in front of you is at a good height to lean on and when someone wants to go to the toilet or get food etc, they just walk past you. No having to stand up or swing your knees to one side to let them past. Also, when celebrating a goal it much safe than having a seat at knee height in front of you (granted yesterday’s celebrations were due to the occasion) as you could jump and not fear of falling over. You can sit before the match starts, during half time & during long delays when the physio comes on.

we should allow all fan’s currently sitting in the south stand who would not like to experience safe standing to be relocated to the Dolman stand or upper tier of the West stand and I’m sure there’s some fans from those areas would swap for safe standing in the South stand.

I know this is unlikely to happen, but I’m sure if we did get to the premiership. Most people in the South stand would be standing unsafely anyway.

It's always amazed me that the people in charge of safety would rather persist with insisting everyone sits down - which is impossible to police - and inevitably ends up in a much more dangerous situation as you said with chairs at shin height, people squeezing past etc. It would have made much more sense to make faster progress on a better solution that allows fans to stand.

[adamski]

3 hours ago, exAtyeoMax said:

if SS was at the front of the South Stand wouldn't it obscure the view of those sitting at the rear? If SS went along the back of the South Stand there would be a break between sitting and standing, those sitting would be halfway up the stand or thereabouts.

I'd rather sit but I don't want to sit at the sides. 

To guarantee seated spectators clear sight lines standing would have to be to the rear of the SS and seating to the front...Cardiff did this at Ninian in the away section of the Grange End, crap view for all, but if you were seated you got an unobscured crap view! Personally, I'm a purest - standing behind the goals and in the side enclosures- seating on the sides only...never got the Boothferry/Ayersome/White Heart Lane/Victoria/single tier standing/sitting thing...fine with the proper Goodison/Bramall Lane double decker style seats over standing configuration or even the Dell Standing over Standing