Joe Williams

[Mihai]

Guys ? There are players earning more than 1 mil. pounds per year at City ?  If that so, Romanian football is cursed, Championship is the second league and we can't even match half of that for more than a few players and only at top teams,  and we are City not Southampton/Leicester because other teams which pay even more for sure... WAAAT is going wrong with football,  every player will loose his passion after a few years earning that much money. Most of them will see only the financial benefit and that will make this sport even more tactical than is already.

[steviestevieneville]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I think Joe has been playing well all season, although for some perhaps it’s been noticeable under LM.  Had an injury (calf)neither side of the manager change, but I think he gives us something different, and is in his peak years.

I think he’s proved he’s over the hamstring injuries and would give good balance to the rest of the midfield next season…which will be a young central-midfield.

Williams (27 at start of season)

Knight (22)

Gardner-Hickman (22)

Bird (23)

Murphy (19)

+++++

Benarous (21)

Taylor-Clarke (20)

Backwell (21)

+++++

not included Stokes as I don’t see him playing any deeper roles, expect Kadji, James and King to be released, nor the wide midfielders.

But the 5 above is a good core imho.

It’s starting to be a worry for me. King & James have been brilliant in forging a strong dressing room , along with wells & wiemann . It looks as though at least three of them won’t be with us next season & I can see manning trying to move Nahki on as well. That’s a lot of good experienced pros out the door. I think it’s really important to keep Joe here. Not just because he’s a quality player , but he’ll be a senior player in the squad. We can’t lose all that experience at once imo . 

[Tony Tootle]

2 hours ago, Clevedon Red said:

How do you deduce that?

2 hours ago, JP Hampton said:

What makes you think that?

I just think he will leave. I don’t want him to but he’ll definitely have offers from elsewhere and I can see him moving back closer to the north west

[Merrick's Marvels]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

James won’t be staying. 
One reason for disagreement between Nige and “the club” was that Nige was pushing for James to stay but “the club” didn’t agree. 
I can’t see “the club” changing their mind even if Manning wants him to stay. 
Simply because his salary is too high and we won’t pay that level any more. 

I don't doubt you're right.

But this assumes James wants to sign on again for the same wage.

Have "the club" bothered to find out if there's a reduced wage he'd be prepared to sign on again for?

I'd bet not.

55 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 I’m assuming Bird is one piece in the James, Williams, King replacement jigsaw, so we need one more….one of which could be retain Williams.

Can we get someone in as good / better for what you're gonna outlay on Williams - let’s say over the next 2 / 3 years?

I'm not sure the criteria for new signings is "can we get someone in as good / better".

It seems to be younger / cheaper!

If our midfield loses King / James / Williams at the end of the season and we've replaced them for next season with TGH / Bird / Murphy then, imo, that's not increasing our quality but it has reduced age profile / wages.

My worry, going forward, is too much emphasis is put on signing young technical players and the team will lack both experience and a physical edge. For that reason, I'd be tempted to make Williams a good offer to stay, although in the back of our minds I'm sure we'd all worry about giving a new contract to a bloke who's suddenly found some form in the last few months of his contract.

Tinnion made a mess of his first opportunity to shape our squad to his liking, in the summer of 2005. I've a bad feeling he hasn't learnt much in the meantime.

[JP Hampton]

6 minutes ago, Tony Tootle said:

I just think he will leave. I don’t want him to but he’ll definitely have offers from elsewhere and I can see him moving back closer to the north west

I don't think he is that bothered about staying here TBH and will have offers from other clubs up North.

 It’s this part of your comment I was referring to?

[onlyotib]

25 minutes ago, Mihai said:

Guys ? There are players earning more than 1 mil. pounds per year at City ?  If that so, Romanian football is cursed, Championship is the second league and we can't even match half of that for more than a few players and only at top teams,  and we are City not Southampton/Leicester because other teams which pay even more for sure... WAAAT is going wrong with football,  every player will loose his passion after a few years earning that much money. Most of them will see only the financial benefit and that will make this sport even more tactical than is already.

If you think it’s bad now you should have seen what it was like before COVID. Times are changing for the best

[redkev]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Imagine going into the summer knowing midfield is sorted. That would be really good.

No doubt with our injury record that would be scuppered after 2 or 3 preseason friendlies 

[redkev]

7 minutes ago, JP Hampton said:

I don't think he is that bothered about staying here TBH and will have offers from other clubs up North.

 It’s this part of your comment I was referring to?

From what I have been told he is very happy in Bristol ( just what I’ve been told ) but agree northerners do like to go back up north 

[Mihai]

1 minute ago, onlyotib said:

If you think it’s bad now you should have seen what it was like before COVID. Times are changing for the best

I don't say is a bad thing. I want City to be competitive and to afford good salaries for good players, but my point was different. If a team wants to be succesfull is barely manageable without parachute payments. In the past it was not 100% the same. Poor contries can't keep they players at all I mean not only the poor but even a team from a rich country which is not in the top 5 nations can't keep their players. The European competitions are usually won only by teams from England, Germany, Spain, Italy, France ( and only the top teams stand a chance). In the good old days like 90's we saw some teams like Ajax, OM, Dortmund, Red Star Belgrade even my Romanian team in 86. They could win Uefa Champions League and now the last two Eastern European teams can't even play in the Group Stages of UCL. 

When you think Championship is a second tier league ( i know, probably better than a lot of first leagues in other countries, even League One is probably above let's say Bulgarian football ), and you see salaries of 70k per week, you start asking yourself if a "second world country" can stand in the next 100 years against teams from England.  But we had in Romania, Astra Giurgiu which humilated West Ham two times knocking them out of UEL, but inconsistent it was just a game like in some shock of FA CUP.

I am not trying to be negative but even for teams like our it becomes impossible to be competitive. We can't attract the best players because others are having toooo much money, more than it should be allowed in my opinion. And the teams comming from PL are always having the best chance, they still have players on parachute payments and we have to work with our academy or regular players.

[JP Hampton]

6 minutes ago, redkev said:

From what I have been told he is very happy in Bristol ( just what I’ve been told ) but agree northerners do like to go back up north 

Well that’s different to not “being bothered” about staying, it just seemed an odd thing to say unless one knows it for a fact. 

[Ashton Fete]

There’s so many variables in play I guess we’ll find out in time, ultimately they’re self employed in the conventional sense and will go where best fits personally and financially depending what’s on offer and so much goes on we’ll never know (always fun to speculate tho!)

However, if he wants to stay it’s a no brainer for me, it will cost money to replace him and then wages on top so fingers crossed he stays

A Joe Williams like last night could be captain next season he leads by example so much and dominated the midfield…all qualities other clubs want as well so round we go again

 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Do you see Naismith as primarily a centre back?

Yes.

18 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

I don't doubt you're right.

But this assumes James wants to sign on again for the same wage.

Have "the club" bothered to find out if there's a reduced wage he'd be prepared to sign on again for?

I'd bet not.

It’s not all about wages though is it?  The club might think his performances are degrading / will degrade or that he’s not suited to how we want to play.  Personally, his performance levels are still absolutely fine, but when do they start to drop off?  I dunno, but that will be part of the equation.

I'm not sure the criteria for new signings is "can we get someone in as good / better".

It seems to be younger / cheaper!

Doesn’t mean worse though does it?  Knight, Sykes, Atkinson, etc were all younger.  Dickie wasn’t.  So I’m not sure I agree tbh.  Recruitment has improved.  Don’t judge on Stokes and Murphy, those are different profile signings to Bird for example, and Twine (or whoever we go for if we don’t get him).

If our midfield loses King / James / Williams at the end of the season and we've replaced them for next season with TGH / Bird / Murphy then, imo, that's not increasing our quality but it has reduced age profile / wages.

You, like me, will have to wait and see how next season’s midfield functions. Who knows if it will be better or not?

My worry, going forward, is too much emphasis is put on signing young technical players and the team will lack both experience and a physical edge. For that reason, I'd be tempted to make Williams a good offer to stay, although in the back of our minds I'm sure we'd all worry about giving a new contract to a bloke who's suddenly found some form in the last few months of his contract.

So do I.

So would I.

But that’s not to say that if we don’t re contract Williams we will be worse off though.

Tinnion made a mess of his first opportunity to shape our squad to his liking, in the summer of 2005. I've a bad feeling he hasn't learnt much in the meantime.

Then don’t rely on “bad feelings”, judge on what happens.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Ashton Fete said:

A Joe Williams like last night could be captain next season he leads by example so much and dominated the midfield…all qualities other clubs want as well so round we go again

When he signed I saw him as captain material.

[BLRed]

Not for me. Hasn’t done enough in his whole time playing here. Funny his performances start improving when playing for a new contract…. Too often we have fallen foul to that only to be hamstrung by having a player on a long contract we don’t want and can’t move on.

with TGH, knight, bird, stokes and Murphy, along with possibly Benarous and twine, we have enough cover to move Williams on along with king and James.

Our fan base are far too easily won over by short term performance. Perfect case in point would be the amount of players suggested we purchase having seen one half decent cup performance on tv!

williams is injury prone, is on a decent contract and has been missing for 65-70% of his time here, whether that be due to injury, suspension or just not performing to an appropriate level

[Shauntaylor85]

4 minutes ago, BLRed said:

Not for me. Hasn’t done enough in his whole time playing here. Funny his performances start improving when playing for a new contract…. Too often we have fallen foul to that only to be hamstrung by having a player on a long contract we don’t want and can’t move on.

with TGH, knight, bird, stokes and Murphy, along with possibly Benarous and twine, we have enough cover to move Williams on along with king and James.

Our fan base are far too easily won over by short term performance. Perfect case in point would be the amount of players suggested we purchase having seen one half decent cup performance on tv!

williams is injury prone, is on a decent contract and has been missing for 65-70% of his time here, whether that be due to injury, suspension or just not performing to an appropriate level

I agree with this. Far too inconsistent, offers little in way of assists and goals too. Set piece delivery poor, I agree has much improved but is he worth the wages? Not so sure  

 

[JP Hampton]

17 minutes ago, BLRed said:

Not for me. Hasn’t done enough in his whole time playing here. Funny his performances start improving when playing for a new contract…. Too often we have fallen foul to that only to be hamstrung by having a player on a long contract we don’t want and can’t move on.

with TGH, knight, bird, stokes and Murphy, along with possibly Benarous and twine, we have enough cover to move Williams on along with king and James.

Our fan base are far too easily won over by short term performance. Perfect case in point would be the amount of players suggested we purchase having seen one half decent cup performance on tv!

williams is injury prone, is on a decent contract and has been missing for 65-70% of his time here, whether that be due to injury, suspension or just not performing to an appropriate level

I can see why people could hold that idea and each to his own,  but actually if you take what you wrote (in bold) he’s had a lot of injuries so he can’t play, so can’t be judged through that time, suspension again can’t play, so that leaves us with not performing to an appropriate level. 

  I think most if not every player who returns from injury takes a lot of time to get back to an “appropriate level” some never do. This is possibly one of his longest spells, he’s getting more game time, doing well and that increases confidence. Success breeds success. Not saying he’s not also playing for his contract,(why wouldn’t he) but I don’t put this recent run of play, simply down to that. 

Edited February 8 by JP Hampton

[FNQ]

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I think Joe has been playing well all season, although for some perhaps it’s been noticeable under LM.  Had an injury (calf)neither side of the manager change, but I think he gives us something different, and is in his peak years.

I think he’s proved he’s over the hamstring injuries and would give good balance to the rest of the midfield next season…which will be a young central-midfield.

Williams (27 at start of season)

Knight (22)

Gardner-Hickman (22)

Bird (23)

Murphy (19)

+++++

Benarous (21)

Taylor-Clarke (20)

Backwell (21)

+++++

not included Stokes as I don’t see him playing any deeper roles, expect Kadji, James and King to be released, nor the wide midfielders.

But the 5 above is a good core imho.

In addition, didn’t I read somewhere that Tinnion said that if Twine is not here next season then we would be seeking a Twine type replacement?

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, FNQ said:

In addition, didn’t I read somewhere that Tinnion said that if Twine is not here next season then we would be seeking a Twine type replacement?

As per Stokes (above), not deemed a CM in my books, nor in the eyes of recruitment…Twine is a 10.  I’m just referring to CMs.

[Merrick's Marvels]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Yes.

It’s not all about wages though is it?  The club might think his performances are degrading / will degrade or that he’s not suited to how we want to play.  Personally, his performance levels are still absolutely fine, but when do they start to drop off?  I dunno, but that will be part of the equation.

"Degrade"? You make him sound like he's 103  He can't run anyway and his touch, passing, nouse and experience won't degrade. And the leadership qualities he brings to a naive, green, wet behind the ears squad are invaluable. Much like King. All of which you know!  

Doesn’t mean worse though does it?  Knight, Sykes, Atkinson, etc were all younger.  Dickie wasn’t.  So I’m not sure I agree tbh.  Recruitment has improved.  Don’t judge on Stokes and Murphy, those are different profile signings to Bird for example, and Twine (or whoever we go for if we don’t get him).

You've moved the goalposts! I'm not talking about Knight, Sykes, Atkinson, Dickie - they're already here. I specifically said - replacing midfielders King, James and Williams with TGH, Bird and Murphy which is what is likely to happen, is unlikely to improve our quality next season. Unless, of course, we're being asked to wait and see what happens in 2,3,4 years... jam tomorrow.... blah, blah, blah

You, like me, will have to wait and see how next season’s midfield functions. Who knows if it will be better or not?

We will and my opinion is - replacing King, James and Williams with TGH, Bird and Murphy puts the emphasis too much on tippy tappy technical ability and not enough on the harsh realities of Sat-Tues-Sat football which requires, above all, physicality. Without physicality - all over the pitch - we won't be better. That's a dead cert, in this division

Then don’t rely on “bad feelings”, judge on what happens.

Not everyone relies on data and graphs to form an opinion  I'm happy with my "feelings" on this one - i.e. I'm not betting on Brian Tinnion - a failed manager and someone who since then has been employed by no-one except Steve Lansdown (again!) - to know what a promotion winning Championship team looks like. 

Rather, I'll bet he talks a good game but he won't deliver. Fancy a wager?  

Edited February 8 by Merrick's Marvels

[Davefevs]

14 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

It’s not all about wages though is it?  The club might think his performances are degrading / will degrade or that he’s not suited to how we want to play.  Personally, his performance levels are still absolutely fine, but when do they start to drop off?  I dunno, but that will be part of the equation.

"Degrade"? You make him sound like he's 103  He can't run anyway and his touch, passing, nouse and experience won't degrade. And the leadership qualities he brings to a naive, green, wet behind the ears squad are invaluable. Much like King. All of which you know!  

Doesn’t mean worse though does it?  Knight, Sykes, Atkinson, etc were all younger.  Dickie wasn’t.  So I’m not sure I agree tbh.  Recruitment has improved.  Don’t judge on Stokes and Murphy, those are different profile signings to Bird for example, and Twine (or whoever we go for if we don’t get him).

You've moved the goalposts! I'm not talking about Knight, Sykes, Atkinson, Dickie - they're already here. I specifically said - replacing midfielders King, James and Williams with TGH, Bird and Murphy which is what is likely to happen, is unlikely to improve our quality next season. Unless, of course, we're being asked to wait and see what happens in 2,3,4 years... jam tomorrow.... blah, blah, blah

You, like me, will have to wait and see how next season’s midfield functions. Who knows if it will be better or not?

We will and my opinion is - replacing King, James and Williams with TGH, Bird and Murphy puts the emphasis too much on tippy tappy technical ability and not enough on the harsh realities of Sat-Tues-Sat football which requires, above all, physicality. 

Then don’t rely on “bad feelings”, judge on what happens.

Not everyone relies on data and graphs to form an opinion  I'm happy with my "feelings" on this one - i.e. I'm not betting on Brian Tinnion - a failed manager and someone who since then has been employed by no-one except Steve Lansdown (again!) - to know what a promotion winning Championship team looks like. 

Rather, I'll bet he talks a good game but he won't deliver. Fancy a wager?  

All I’m trying to say with Jamo is the club might think differently or consider different things to you or I.  I thought he had a fantastic game against PL West Ham.  So I don’t think he’s “degraded”…yet.  But he will at some point.  The good things about Matty James is he’s never been quick, he doesn’t need to be, he’s all about positioning himself and that he’s not had a heavy career in terms of appearances.  Ok, that’s in part down to injury, but I sense he still has the desire to play plenty more yet.

Re replacing King, James and Williams, I think there will be one more to go alongside TGH, Bird and Murphy (who I think is long term anyway).  That could be Williams staying, it could be another addition.  I don’t see why that has to be weaker / seen to be weaker.  For example if it’s Bird, TGH, Murphy + Williams, does that feel weaker?

On physicality, that’s where if we do let Williams go, we need to think about the balance.  You’re right, we can’t have all tippy tappy, but I don’t see TGH as that per se anyway.  And of course that can be supplemented elsewhere in the “team”.  We will see LM and TMs team-building tested this summer.  If we look at recruitment is isolation it’s been good, but the key is to find players that make the team better.

+++++

FWIW, I don’t rely on data and graphs to form opinions either…they are just a visual aid that support (most of the time) what I see in players.  What I was suggesting was “watching” first rather than going on “gut feel”.

[RollsRoyce]

Playing for a new contract somewhere. He has been great these last months but you cannot forget the past . He has not been on a million . 

[YorkshireSection]

5 hours ago, Shauntaylor85 said:

Tinnion has liked a post from another fan on X who asked him to sign up Williams to a new deal. 

Im sure Crayola will manage to intervene and uff it up.

[fgrsimon]

If he gets through the rest of the season without injury then for me he has to stay. Otherwise too much of a risk.

[alexukhc]

2 years + 1 for me

[RedEyez]

44 minutes ago, alexukhc said:

2 years + 1 for me

I’d rather we gave it to Williams

[ExiledAjax]

13 hours ago, Davefevs said:

When he signed I saw him as captain material.

Honestly I'd say he's a touch hotheaded to be captain. A vice-captain or lieutenant . Yes absolutely but seeing how he sometimes gets riled up and "sticks one in" on someone, then gets all Scouse gobby with the ref...not the guy to wear the armband for me.

To clarify - I love him, I love that we have at least one annoying, gobby little toerag on the pitch, but I'd not trust him to have the calm composure that is occasionally required of the captain.

[Riaz]

Sign him on!

[The Coach]

Somewhat fearful we are losing players not just with the experience. But the personalities and characters who are driven and want to be successful.

I do fear we will go back to onboarding players who are “quiet and nice lads” but don’t have the fight and drive to want to push on. Ie the O’Dowda’s and Patterson’s etc.

[alexukhc]

24 minutes ago, RedEyez said:

I’d rather we gave it to Williams

I’ll take a month with what he’s on, maybe a week will be enough

[petehinton]

5 minutes ago, The Coach said:

Somewhat fearful we are losing players not just with the experience. But the personalities and characters who are driven and want to be successful.

I do fear we will go back to onboarding players who are “quiet and nice lads” but don’t have the fight and drive to want to push on. Ie the O’Dowda’s and Patterson’s etc.

I think this is where I’m at too. 
 

King, James, Weimann, Williams all going are huge leaders and personalities in the dressing room.
 

On yesterday’s Stick to Football, Neville & Keane made a huge point about how important it was for them to have senior successful pros to look up to, who they could aspire to try to replicate. Even put United’s recent downfall to having none of those characters over the last 10 years. 
 

If they are all to go, of which Weimann King & James are basically guaranteed to be off - that leaves Wells, Naismith and Cornick as the most senior experienced pros….

 

It’s a hell of a risk. 
 

Sunderland have an extremely young squad, but that was built with again some sprinklings of older quality, and ultimately just having extremely talented young players, more so than us. 
 

We all already knew we had a small squad, so I personally don’t see how recruiting Bird & the two young lads in cm (tbc on if they’d even be first team starters next season anyway), but letting 2 potentially 3 CMs go, strengthens us in any way possible.
 

Would require further CM shopping, as well as more than likely spending a decent chunk of cash on a new striker, and either doing the same for a GK or continue being weak in that department too. 
 

Over to Tinns, I guess!