Why the half time switch in formation?

[And Its Smith]

Manning getting a fair bit of criticism for this yesterday and it’s completely fair to say that the two halves from us looked completely different to each other.  Changing shape when 2-0 up at half time isn’t something you see very often.  But I think, whether one agrees with a decision or not, it is always worth considering why it was made.  Comments of ‘baffling decision’ suggest a lack of thought as to why the decision might have been taken.  You can disagree with a decision but still understand the thought process behind it.  Something that doesn’t happen too often on OTIB, or most football forums I would guess.  
 

When you consider the following it looks much more of an understandable decision:

1.  5 at the back has conceded just 2 goals in 400 minutes of football against Premier League opposition 

2. The second half against Preston would be fresh in his mind

3. No league win since Boxing Day

4. A bit of a trend (although diminishing) of conceding early second half goals

 

Maybe there are other reasons as well but if you put yourself in Manning’s shoes, I think it is more understandable than it appeared at 4pm yesterday.  I think he was vindicated as well.  Max had a few saves to make but we weren’t massively tested.  Their goal was lucky as well which probably put a further negative spin on the win for some.  

Edited February 11 by And Its Smith

[Davefevs]

This is the gist of my thread last night Dave!

[And Its Smith]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

This is the gist of my thread last night Dave!

It’s not though. You asked why the change and then criticised the change. Above I have put reasons why the change may have been made.  

[Port Said Red]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

This is the gist of my thread last night Dave!

Which would have certainly got a better reception if you hadn't opened the post with the line.....

"A huge sense of disappointment, frustration and anger about the second half performance."

It put a lot of people's backs up including mine. @And Its Smith's post is more measured, probably because he followed my personal rule of never posting straight after a game.

[RedRoss]

I think it's also partially needs must with managing game time. With different personnel you can't always keep the same shape i.e McCrorie coming on for Bell. Who else was the option.. Mebude? That would of been more risky.

I wouldn't say their goal was lucky as the pressure they applied beforehand was sustained and a goal felt like it was coming.

[Port Said Red]

9 minutes ago, RedRoss said:

I think it's also partially needs must with managing game time. With different personnel you can't always keep the same shape i.e McCrorie coming on for Bell. Who else was the option.. Mebude? That would of been more risky.

I wouldn't say their goal was lucky as the pressure they applied beforehand was sustained and a goal felt like it was coming.

When you see a forward looking around to see if he has actually scored, I think that suggests an element of luck.

[RedRoss]

1 minute ago, Port Said Red said:

When you see a forward looking around to see if he has actually scored, I think that suggests an element of luck.

Yeah I'm not saying there wasn't an element of luck for the goal specifically but as a whole when pressure is applied for a long period it's more likely one will end going in whether deflected or not. That being said the players defended very well second half especially given the context of the schedule they've played already.

[chinapig]

It wasn't entirely clear as he tends to give short answers and wasn't asked why but Liam said in the club interview that the plan was to let them have the ball and defend (which we did well).

But at another point he seemed to suggest the plan was to let them have the ball and counterattack (which we didn't do well in the second half).

So the only conclusion I can come to is - I don't have a clue why he changed the shape!

[chinapig]

10 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

When you see a forward looking around to see if he has actually scored, I think that suggests an element of luck.

He was clearly trying to get out of the way of the shot, which hit him and deflected in. A lucky goal then.

[italian dave]

23 minutes ago, RedRoss said:

I think it's also partially needs must with managing game time. With different personnel you can't always keep the same shape i.e McCrorie coming on for Bell. Who else was the option.. Mebude? That would of been more risky.

I wouldn't say their goal was lucky as the pressure they applied beforehand was sustained and a goal felt like it was coming.

First point, agree with, and I think that was an important part of it. 

It felt like we switched in the knowledge that it was more about having 5 at the back than it was about wing backs pressing forward. And for the most part that worked. The point at which it started to look a little more risky was the Roberts for Pring switch - but I'm not sure that was a deliberate plan, more a knock for Pring?

And, picking up the point both you and @And Its Smith make...it worked! We won! Baffling or not, understandable or not...it did the job.

I know what you mean about their goal, but I honestly didn't feel like that until, say, the five minutes before it came. Yes, I was worried about the first 15 of the second half, but that was just about precedent! But until quite late on I really didn't feel that we were hanging or, or that it was just a matter of time. And when you get to 90 minutes and are still two goals ahead then the worry tends to diminish a little!! 

[W-S-M Seagull]

I think Liam needs to work on his communication. He answers questions in a way where the questions don't really get answered and then thats why we're then all left trying to figure out why he made certain decisions. 

 

[RedRoss]

4 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I think Liam needs to work on his communication. He answers questions in a way where the questions don't really get answered and then thats why we're then all left trying to figure out why he made certain decisions. 

 

I think your just showing the over expectations of a modern day fan.

Does he really need to explain his tactics in full detail post match? Perhaps he'd prefer to keep that to himself. It might be in our interests not to share everything with our next potential opponents. Especially considering we have Southampton in a very quick turnaround i.e same context as Middlesbrough. We won't have much time to recover, we won't have the lions share of possession.

[Alessandro]

I can see the potential rationale behind the switch - but Manning didn't come out and exactly clarify in his post match either. "we found a way" was the interesting comment for me. 

But I've got to say, I can only think some people didn't see the game. Or the second half.

I notice the, pretty close, off-side goal doesn't get mentioned much. It's certainly not in the highlights from the club - Boro's highlights have more chances. Had that stood, we probably wouldn't have won that game, IMO.

Having really looked a threat on the break especially towards the end of the first half (even when Boro still dominated the possession) in that system, I don't understand why we couldn't have continued in that set up, with a more conservative, energy saving mind-set, committing less people forward for example. But with that switch at HT we lost any foothold in the game and Conway's 6 touches in 40 minutes showed how little ball he saw. 

The fact both Manning and James said it was a little scary at times suggests they didn't exactly feel in total control or confidence in what they were doing.

As I said in matchday thread, great 3 points, but going forwards, 4 or 3 at the back is one to watch. 

Edited February 11 by Alessandro

[Numero Uno]

I think Moyes could use a half time switch in formation right now………………

[W-S-M Seagull]

5 minutes ago, RedRoss said:

I think your just showing the over expectations of a modern day fan.

Does he really need to explain his tactics in full detail post match? Perhaps he'd prefer to keep that to himself. It might be in our interests not to share everything with our next potential opponents. Especially considering we have Southampton in a very quick turnaround i.e same context as Middlesbrough. We won't have much time to recover, we won't have the lions share of possession.

But that's what I mean, because of the  lack of clarity he gives it leaves people such as yourself to try and fill in the gaps and speculate. 

Many other managers speak about why they made changes etc. Clubs have army's of analysts so he wouldn't be given much away to the opposition. 

[RedRoss]

Just now, W-S-M Seagull said:

But that's what I mean, because of the  lack of clarity he gives it leaves people such as yourself to try and fill in the gaps and speculate. 

Many other managers speak about why they made changes etc. Clubs have army's of analysts so he wouldn't be given much away to the opposition. 

Yes we're speculating on a fan forum that's what it was set up for. You don't need clarity, you want clarity as a fan. Like I said it's a modern day fans need for information to the nth degree. Thankfully he's not providing all details of why we did x or y in the last game because there is a strong likelihood we may need to do it again.

Regardless of analysts they won't know everything and things need to be hidden. If not we might aswell post the line up, formation, planned subs 24 hours before.

[W-S-M Seagull]

2 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

I can see the potential rationale behind the switch - but Manning didn't come out and exactly clarify in his post match either. "we found a way" was the interesting comment for me. 

But I've got to say, I can only think some people didn't see the game. Or the second half.

I notice the, pretty close, off-side goal doesn't get mentioned much. It's certainly not in the highlights from the club - Boro's highlights have more chances. Had that stood, we probably wouldn't have won that game, IMO.

Having really looked a threat on the break especially towards the end of the first half (even when Boro still dominated the possession) in that system, I don't understand why we couldn't have continued in that set up, with a more conservative, energy saving mind-set, committing less people forward for example. But with that switch at HT we lost any foothold in the game and Conway's 6 touches in 40 minutes showed how little ball he saw. 

The fact both Manning and James said it was a little scary at times suggests they didn;t exactly feel total control or confidence in what they were doing.

As I said in matchday thread, great 3 points, but going forwards, 4 or 3 at the back is one to watch. 

Boro will have come away feeling they didn't at least get something out of that. 

Great that we've got the win. First half was a great performance but we did get let off in the second half. That goal was onside. Its about time we have some luck go against us, makes up for the dodgy var decision at Forest. 

I can't even say the changes worked yesterday. It did in the fact we won but we only won because the lino made an incorrect call. 

Just because we won I don't think that means we should overlook that changes. 

It does give concerns moving forward because there isn't going to always be an incorrect call by the lino to help us out. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 minute ago, RedRoss said:

Yes we're speculating on a fan forum that's what it was set up for. You don't need clarity, you want clarity as a fan. Like I said it's a modern day fans need for information to the nth degree. Thankfully he's not providing all details of why we did x or y in the last game because there is a strong likelihood we may need to do it again.

Regardless of analysts they won't know everything and things need to be hidden. If not we might aswell post the line up, formation, planned subs 24 hours before.

And that's where Manning needs to improve his communication skills. 

He's the Head coach of a fanbase of around 40-50k he needs to find the balance of informing the fanbase whilst also keeping the trade secrets. 

I don't want to know all his in depth tactical plans, but I do want to know the basics as to why our best performing player was taken off. 

If he wants to keep things close to his chest then cool but then that doesnt improve relations between the club and its support which has been a huge issue this season. 

[RedRoss]

Just now, W-S-M Seagull said:

And that's where Manning needs to improve his communication skills. 

He's the Head coach of a fanbase of around 40-50k he needs to find the balance of informing the fanbase whilst also keeping the trade secrets. 

I don't want to know all his in depth tactical plans, but I do want to know the basics as to why our best performing player was taken off. 

If he wants to keep things close to his chest then cool but then that doesnt improve relations between the club and its support which has been a huge issue this season. 

Yes it's clearly been a huge issue:

https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/bristol-city/attendances

[Ashtongreight]

2 minutes ago, RedRoss said:

Yes it's clearly been a huge issue:

https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/bristol-city/attendances

I assume you are suggesting because we have high attendances we’re all happy with the clubs communication . I don’t see that the two are necessarily linked, in fact, but maybe if suggests the opposite, because there are lots of us, as a club we need to ensure our communication is better. 

[chinapig]

34 minutes ago, RedRoss said:

I think your just showing the over expectations of a modern day fan.

Does he really need to explain his tactics in full detail post match? Perhaps he'd prefer to keep that to himself. It might be in our interests not to share everything with our next potential opponents. Especially considering we have Southampton in a very quick turnaround i.e same context as Middlesbrough. We won't have much time to recover, we won't have the lions share of possession.

Given the vast amounts of information available to clubs these days I doubt you can keep any secrets. Southampton will have analysed our games in detail and will be prepared for a variety of scenarios.

[RedRoss]

1 minute ago, Ashtongreight said:

I assume you are suggesting because we have high attendances we’re all happy with the clubs communication . I don’t see that the two are necessarily linked, in fact, but maybe if suggests the opposite, because there are lots of us, as a club we need to ensure our communication is better. 

I'm suggesting people moan a huge amount on social media or on here. Even say they won't be renewing season tickets ect but ironically our footfall seems to increase regardless. Seems like people aren't voting with their feet and supposedly holding the hierarchy to account.

[Alessandro]

42 minutes ago, RedRoss said:

I think your just showing the over expectations of a modern day fan.

Does he really need to explain his tactics in full detail post match? Perhaps he'd prefer to keep that to himself. It might be in our interests not to share everything with our next potential opponents. Especially considering we have Southampton in a very quick turnaround i.e same context as Middlesbrough. We won't have much time to recover, we won't have the lions share of possession.

 

5 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Given the vast amounts of information available to clubs these days I doubt you can keep any secrets. Southampton will have analysed our games in detail and will be prepared for a variety of scenarios.

To suggest a championship manager is watching opposition managers interviews to understand their tactics, is...well...silly. 

All they have to do is watch the game, analyse the stats and learn all they need to. 

Edited February 11 by Alessandro

[RedRoss]

3 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

 

To suggest a championship manager is watching opposition managers interviews to understand their tactics, is...well...silly. 

All they have to do is watch the game, analyse the stats and learn all they need to. 

Glad to have input from an actual Championship manager like you to clarify for me.

[Better Red]

1 hour ago, And Its Smith said:

Manning getting a fair bit of criticism for this yesterday and it’s completely fair to say that the two halves from us looked completely different to each other.  Changing shape when 2-0 up at half time isn’t something you see very often.  But I think, whether one agrees with a decision or not, it is always worth considering why it was made.  Comments of ‘baffling decision’ suggest a lack of thought as to why the decision might have been taken.  You can disagree with a decision but still understand the thought process behind it.  Something that doesn’t happen too often on OTIB, or most football forums I would guess.  
 

When you consider the following it looks much more of an understandable decision:

1.  5 at the back has conceded just 2 goals in 400 minutes of football against Premier League opposition 

2. The second half against Preston would be fresh in his mind

3. No league win since Boxing Day

4. A bit of a trend (although diminishing) of conceding early second half goals

 

Maybe there are other reasons as well but if you put yourself in Manning’s shoes, I think it is more understandable than it appeared at 4pm yesterday.  I think he was vindicated as well.  Max had a few saves to make but we weren’t massively tested.  Their goal was lucky as well which probably put a further negative spin on the win for some.  

Objective get three points away from home at Middlesbrough.

Rest a few players where possible as another 2 games this week

Dont give away a 2 goal lead.

Tick

Tick

Tick

 

[W-S-M Seagull]

31 minutes ago, RedRoss said:

Yes it's clearly been a huge issue:

https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/bristol-city/attendances

Do you work for the club by any chance? 

I say that because this is the exact attitude the club have. "Attendances are good so fans must be happy" 

I don't know what planet you have been living on but the majority of us consider communication to be at an all time low and the sane for the relationship between the club and our fans. 

[Alessandro]

18 minutes ago, RedRoss said:

Glad to have input from an actual Championship manager like you to clarify for me.

Oh sorry, I give my opinion about what championship managers do and I’m trying to be a championship manager and when you give your opinion about what championship managers do your…what…not?!
 

OK mate.

Edited February 11 by Alessandro

[RedRoss]

1 minute ago, Alessandro said:

Oh sorry, I give my opinion about what championship managers do and I’m trying to be a championship manager and when you give your opinion about what championship managers do your…what…not?!
 

OK mate.

Exactly were both speculating. Silly aint it.

[RedRoss]

8 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Do you work for the club by any chance? 

I say that because this is the exact attitude the club have. "Attendances are good so fans must be happy" 

I don't know what planet you have been living on but the majority of us consider communication to be at an all time low and the sane for the relationship between the club and our fans. 

Haha that old chestnut.. you must work for BS. You really do have a repeat switch.

Sorry I forgot your working hard constantly on here to hold the club to account aren't you? You don't attend fan meetings, you don't vote with your feet but your posting on here. How's that going?

Can you be more specific on what information you are lacking currently from the club asides from half time tactics?

[Sleepy1968]

10 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Do you work for the club by any chance? 

I say that because this is the exact attitude the club have. "Attendances are good so fans must be happy" 

I don't know what planet you have been living on but the majority of us consider communication to be at an all time low and the sane for the relationship between the club and our fans. 

WSM, I doubt the majority of fans give it much thought. Those on here, yes, but we're special cases aren't we?