The elephant in the room

[W-S-M Seagull]

There is an uncomfortable truth that Manning has failed on the brief of making us compete this season. That objective has not been met.

We’ve had a few flashes in the pan but ultimately we have not taken the steps forward that Manning was expected to do.

He came in here and inherited a decent squad. The board felt the squad was good enough to compete. We all have our own opinions on that. I certainly felt that with a fair wind we could have potentially challenged.

I certainly feel as if the current team is underperforming and is behind of where it should be in it's evolution. I sit here and ask myself the question, would another head coach/manager have gotten more out of this squad? And the answer is a unequivocal yes.

Manning inherited probably the most talented and fittest squad that any manager at Bristol City has inherited for decades in my opinion. The culture was in place. All he needed to do was improve our results.

Up until this point I'm struggling to think of any major improvements we have made under Manning. Maybe slightly better when on the ball? But Manning has failed to sort issues out such as inconsistency, breaking down teams and not being able to beat teams that sit back.

He's been here for 23 games and there has been very little sign that he has the ability to sort these issues out. Teams have figured us out and there is no plan b.

Now I'm going early on this and I fully accept any flak I may get for going early but I'm looking towards the summer now.

Sunderland saw it wasn't working with Beale and got rid.

I hear lots of people say "well he needs a pre season, he needs his own players" etc. That excuse doesn't really wash with me. He was brought in to have us competing this season with this squad. The front foot football that we were promised has by and large not materialised.

Now the elephant in the room is - the summer. I've not seen anything of note that gives me confidence that even with a pre season, even with a few of his own players that he will be able to get us competing. Mannings in game management has given me concerns.

And that's the conundrum here. Do we alllow Manning to rip up this squad and rebuild it with players that suit his style with there being no guarantees that will work out or do we have those difficult conversations that actually this isn't working out how we expected it to?

I dont want to be getting to October/November next season and thinking great here's another lost opportunity.

9 points from the last 9 games / 2 wins from 9 is totally not acceptable.

[Port Said Red]

[Rudolf Hucker]

3 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

and I fully accept any flak I may get

Ah, no you won’t. You’ll just end up blocking even more people. 

[cidercity1987]

2 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

Not wrong is he

However I lay the blame squarely at Lansdown and Tinnion

I don't think there is anyone who is really going to be markedly better than Pearson was with the resources 

[Port Said Red]

1 minute ago, cidercity1987 said:

Not wrong is he

However I lay the blame squarely at Lansdown and Tinnion

I don't think there is anyone who is really going to be markedly better than Pearson was with the resources 

You know as well as I do that the guy was crying into his cider after the 'boro and Southampton games, and jumping for joy inside when Saturday was over.

His overarching default position, and that of this forum is negativity. Only here could two top quality wins against teams with a paper superiority, be overshadowed by one against a team that although poor were on an upturn of form and still had enough quality to go with a battling performance. Someone showed before the 'boro game that the points average required to get near the play offs was 2 points a game. Spot on after the first three games, lets see where it goes.

[Lrrr]

Absolutely ****ing pathetic post

• The 'we have a squad capable of competing' comment was justification for getting rid of Pearson when they did otherwise they didn't have it
• Its definitely not the best squad inherited, if its the fittest because we've decided to go out and sign athletes which any manager previously could have done, but this is a general trend in English top couple of divisions anyway so we'd have been left behind if we didn't do it. 
• We've given Manning little by way to change the squad/invest, in January he's been given a Murphy who isn't ready for first team, 2 signings who've been loaned straight back out in Bird & Stokes. So only Twine & Mebude as loanees who could potentially influence the first team now. 

Are there games we should have won that we've lost? Sure, but anyone is deluded if they think this squad SHOULD be in the top 6 or even just outside. Its a top 10 squad at best and everyone on here knows Pearson was doing a fine job and frankly Manning has us around where we should be. Pearson offered us our first bit of stability in ages, we can't go back to 20 games without play off form means the sack.

[Super]

Same shit different day.

[Davefevs]

I think the OP makes some valid points.

But having reached my first full view over the past couple of weeks, I’m just gonna sit and watch the rest of the season play out.  I don’t think much will change from what I’ve seen so far, some bits I like, some I don’t.

[ExiledAjax]

16 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

All he needed to do was improve our results.

It was in his hands.

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 minute ago, Lrrr said:

Absolutely ****ing pathetic post

• The 'we have a squad capable of competing' comment was justification for getting rid of Pearson when they did otherwise they didn't have it
• Its definitely not the best squad inherited, if its the fittest because we've decided to go out and sign athletes which any manager previously could have done, but this is a general trend in English top couple of divisions anyway so we'd have been left behind if we didn't do it. 
• We've given Manning little by way to change the squad/invest, in January he's been given a Murphy who isn't ready for first team, 2 signings who've been loaned straight back out in Bird & Stokes. So only Twine & Mebude as loanees who could potentially influence the first team now. 

Are there games we should have won that we've lost? Sure, but anyone is deluded if they think this squad SHOULD be in the top 6 or even just outside. Its a top 10 squad at best and everyone on here knows Pearson was doing a fine job and frankly Manning has us around where we should be. Pearson offered us our first bit of stability in ages, we can't go back to 20 games without play off form means the sack.

It's a well thought out post mate which is backed up by evidence and asks questions. 

Thanks for your contribution tho. 

It is my opinion that this squad is the best squad that any manager has inherited over the past few decades. If you disagree then fair enough please do give an example as to why you think it's not? And which squad was better that another manager inherited? 

I think we should be doing better than we are. Saturdays game being a case in point. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think the OP makes some valid points.

But having reached my first full view over the past couple of weeks, I’m just gonna sit and watch the rest of the season play out.  I don’t think much will change from what I’ve seen so far, some bits I like, some I don’t.

I fully accept I've gone early on this. 

I'm not saying sack him this instant. But more so based on what I've seen so far I do have concerns about the summer. 

[One Team]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think the OP makes some valid points.

But having reached my first full view over the past couple of weeks, I’m just gonna sit and watch the rest of the season play out.  I don’t think much will change from what I’ve seen so far, some bits I like, some I don’t.

Agreed Fevs, some good points in there I think. It’s passed me by he’s had that many games already, with a win percentage slightly worse than Nige. 

It will be interesting to see how the rest of the season pans out. Lansdown will stick by his man, but go on a losing streak that includes Cardiff and Swansea at home and it will be very toxic. 

[Northern Red]

Like it or not, he will get the summer, and he will be backed. Though I don't think there'll be the massive turnover of players that some are expecting, bearing in mind that we've already done some business.

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, One Team said:

Agreed Fevs, some good points in there I think. It’s passed me by he’s had that many games already, with a win percentage slightly worse than Nige. 

It will be interesting to see how the rest of the season pans out. Lansdown will stick by his man, but go on a losing streak that includes Cardiff and Swansea at home and it will be very toxic. 

Yeah, he’s not going anywhere, nor should he be at this point.

But I also think it’s fine for WSM to have his view too.  And yes, he’s gone early, and we can all have a good laugh when he’s proved wrong, can’t we.  But what if WSM has got it right?

[W-S-M Seagull]

14 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

You know as well as I do that the guy was crying into his cider after the 'boro and Southampton games, and jumping for joy inside when Saturday was over.

His overarching default position, and that of this forum is negativity. Only here could two top quality wins against teams with a paper superiority, be overshadowed by one against a team that although poor were on an upturn of form and still had enough quality to go with a battling performance. Someone showed before the 'boro game that the points average required to get near the play offs was 2 points a game. Spot on after the first three games, lets see where it goes.

Yes mate. I spend over a thousand pounds a year and take time off of work and travel up from Weston to attend games in the hope that we lose. 

Sad. 

[Davefevs]

37 minutes ago, One Team said:

Agreed Fevs, some good points in there I think. It’s passed me by he’s had that many games already, with a win percentage slightly worse than Nige. 

It will be interesting to see how the rest of the season pans out. Lansdown will stick by his man, but go on a losing streak that includes Cardiff and Swansea at home and it will be very toxic. 

A few weeks ago, with City 6 league games without a win, and Boro (a) and unbeaten Southampton (h) coming up, I think a few of us thought that QPR (h) and Wednesday (a) was a nice little back-stop for him.

But the Championship is a complete unpredictable bastard isn’t it?  

Edited February 20 by Davefevs

[The Bard]

26 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

Not wrong is he

However I lay the blame squarely at Lansdown and Tinnion

I don't think there is anyone who is really going to be markedly better than Pearson was with the resources 

This.

 

If we'd kept Nige we'd probably have the same points more or less. Would probably have done better in games v likes of Millwall and QPR but probably wouldn't have beaten Southampton. 

If we'd backed Nige we'd be better off   I'm sure

[BCFC31]

37 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

There is an uncomfortable truth that Manning has failed on the brief of making us compete this season. That objective has not been met.

We’ve had a few flashes in the pan but ultimately we have not taken the steps forward that Manning was expected to do.

He came in here and inherited a decent squad. The board felt the squad was good enough to compete. We all have our own opinions on that. I certainly felt that with a fair wind we could have potentially challenged.

I certainly feel as if the current team is underperforming and is behind of where it should be in it's evolution. I sit here and ask myself the question, would another head coach/manager have gotten more out of this squad? And the answer is a unequivocal yes.

Manning inherited probably the most talented and fittest squad that any manager at Bristol City has inherited for decades in my opinion. The culture was in place. All he needed to do was improve our results.

Up until this point I'm struggling to think of any major improvements we have made under Manning. Maybe slightly better when on the ball? But Manning has failed to sort issues out such as inconsistency, breaking down teams and not being able to beat teams that sit back.

He's been here for 23 games and there has been very little sign that he has the ability to sort these issues out. Teams have figured us out and there is no plan b.

Now I'm going early on this and I fully accept any flak I may get for going early but I'm looking towards the summer now.

Sunderland saw it wasn't working with Beale and got rid.

I hear lots of people say "well he needs a pre season, he needs his own players" etc. That excuse doesn't really wash with me. He was brought in to have us competing this season with this squad. The front foot football that we were promised has by and large not materialised.

Now the elephant in the room is - the summer. I've not seen anything of note that gives me confidence that even with a pre season, even with a few of his own players that he will be able to get us competing. Mannings in game management has given me concerns.

And that's the conundrum here. Do we alllow Manning to rip up this squad and rebuild it with players that suit his style with there being no guarantees that will work out or do we have those difficult conversations that actually this isn't working out how we expected it to?

I dont want to be getting to October/November next season and thinking great here's another lost opportunity.

9 points from the last 9 games / 2 wins from 9 is totally not acceptable.

This is nonsense the guy is working with pearson and Dean holdens players give him a chance different players do different things we need addions who can go and effect games the way manning wants. Forget the crap from the board we don't have a top 6 squad it's bang average. The problem isn't with Manning it's the idiotic lansdowns who haven't a clue how to set up a football operation.

Edited February 20 by BCFC31

[weepywall]

Well I thought this was a thread about cider as I went in the Royal Oak in Bath earlier and they had a cider on called "elephant in the room" very nice it was

[Natchfever]

8 minutes ago, The Bard said:

This.

 

If we'd kept Nige we'd probably have the same points more or less. Would probably have done better in games v likes of Millwall and QPR but probably wouldn't have beaten Southampton. 

If we'd backed Nige we'd be better off   I'm sure

If Nige was still here, Tinnion wouldnt be lording it over football matters imo so was never happening.

All about crayon boy and Sid. I have serious doubts regarding Manning but he was never turning down the job offer.

[W-S-M Seagull]

14 minutes ago, BCFC31 said:

This is nonsense the guy is working with pearson and Dean holdens players give him a chance different players do different things we need addions who can go and effect games the way manning wants. Forget the crap from the board we don't have a top 6 squad it's bang average. The problem isn't with Manning it's the idiotic lansdowns who haven't a clue how to set up a football operation.

This argument doesn't hold much weight for me. 

He was brought in to get the best out of Pearsons and Holdens players. That was his remit, a remit he accepted when he signed the contract. 

[Ashton Fete]

I’m totally torn, I wanted Nige to get another 2 years and have the transfer funds/turnover opportunities that Manning will get.

However, some of the football under Manning does make me buy into the plan, games against Forest, West Ham and Southampton prove that thought process and it gives me optimism 

But then the game against Millwall was so boring and flat and QPR was a tactical mess making me think he has no plan B when teams play certain ways against us 

He will get the summer/pre season so I’m just hoping it pays off but as of now I could see us being in the top 6 and a flying start to the season or just above the relegation zone after 20 games.

Whether you were a Nige fan or not, the transition from him to Manning wasn’t helped by Jon Lansdown spouting the nonsense about the squad. The reality seems to have been there was a fall out and Nige wasn’t going to be offered a new deal so it became toxic.   Perhaps something like that would have at least been understood by fans. 

So in summary…not a clue but I’ll renew my season ticket as always on the hope next season is the exciting play off push and try to have that optimism 

[TonyTonyTony]

@W-S-M Seagull jizzing all over the forum again. Wonderful 

[Major Isewater]

I am not fully convinced by Manning but he must be given a summer of bringing in some of his own players and a full preseason to prepare them. I hope we get off to a flyer and by December we’re talking about promotion. 
 

[Edgy Red]

46 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

It's a well thought out post mate which is backed up by evidence and asks questions. 

Thanks for your contribution tho. 

It is my opinion that this squad is the best squad that any manager has inherited over the past few decades. If you disagree then fair enough please do give an example as to why you think it's not? And which squad was better that another manager inherited? 

I think we should be doing better than we are. Saturdays game being a case in point. 

But..... isn't this actually Nige's squad? With the exception of Twine (who has played 1 game) and Mebude (who looked Dire on Saturday) this is the squad that Nige built.

So, from what you are saying, Nige was underachieving too?

Results and performances under Manning have continued to be inconsistent, as they were under Nige, however Manning has only had the job for 3 months.

Lets just get behind the team and give him some time.

Edited February 20 by Edgy Red
Spelling

[The Coach]

I think we will be having somewhat similar conversation next season being in a very similar league position and being consistently inconsistent.

[W-S-M Seagull]

20 minutes ago, The Bard said:

This.

 

If we'd kept Nige we'd probably have the same points more or less. Would probably have done better in games v likes of Millwall and QPR but probably wouldn't have beaten Southampton. 

If we'd backed Nige we'd be better off   I'm sure

I mentioned in my post that I felt the squad has not evolved how it should have by this point. 

And I would have thought the same if Pearson was here or any other manager. 

There just hasn't been that improvement that I expected by now. 

I made it quite clear on here in the summer that I expected top 10 with us going into the final games of a chance of play offs. 

Rather than improving we are infact starting to regress and that's even more frustrating. 

So if Nige was here and we were at the exact point as we are now I'd be asking the same questions. 

The problem we got is we can't seem to find a manager that can crack the code of beating poor and good teams. 

 

[TV Tom]

Can’t you band of losers have your own little forum where you can cry into your cider together

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Edgy Red said:

But..... isn't this actually Nige's squad? With the exception of Twine (who has played 1 game) and Mabude (who looked Dire on Saturday) this is the squad that Nige built.

So, from what you are saying, Nige was underachieving too?

Results and performances under Manning have continued to be inconsistent, as they were under Nige, however Manning has only had the job for 3 months.

Lets just get behind the team and give him some time.

We wasted the summer opportunity to strengthen when Alex Scott was sold.

I still think the Phil Alexander SoTC interview was the beginning of the end for him and Nige.

Its happened, they are both gone, and 4 of the back room staff (Orme was leaving anyway) too.

We are still Bristol City, for me it’s really tough to guess which direction we go as it stands.

+++++

Don't want to really mention recruitment, but we’ve been recruiting to a plan / profile for 2 years now, it’s a profile that shouldn’t really make much difference who is in charge.  But I think that looks like a bit of lip-service as it currently stands.  Hey ho.

[spudski]

My biggest worry with Manning, is I don't trust him to make the right decision on who to select from a squad that is nearing full fitness...apart from now Bell and Atkinson. 

I know we call it a ' squad game', but I have a feeling he will rotate often. 

Trying to keep everyone happy and making the right choice on match day, from a bigger squad to select from I can see being his Achilles heal. 

I'm getting vibes of it already. 

I've not been particularly enamoured by some of his selections and also some of his subs. 

If he also continues to make Mehmetti his number 1 pick nearly every week, then I can see us just doing what we've been doing...being pretty in our own half and toothless in the final third.