The elephant in the room

[W-S-M Seagull]

2 minutes ago, Edgy Red said:

But..... isn't this actually Nige's squad? With the exception of Twine (who has played 1 game) and Mabude (who looked Dire on Saturday) this is the squad that Nige built.

So, from what you are saying, Nige was underachieving too?

Results and performances under Manning have continued to be inconsistent, as they were under Nige, however Manning has only had the job for 3 months.

Lets just get behind the team and give him some time.

But Manning was not brought in to rebuild and then maybe challenge in a few seasons time. He was brought in to challange with this squad. 

Nige was slightly underachieving and had that of gone on then I'd have been asking questions. But up until his departure we had played Leicester, Leeds and Ipswich. In fact if you look back at the fixture list now then the majority of games this season for Nige were against teams that are now challenging. 

I expected us to beat both Sheffield Wed and QPR under Nige and I believe that would have seen us 1 point off the play offs. But we'll never know. 

It might only be 3/4 months but it has been 23 games. 

[Edgy Red]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

We wasted the summer opportunity to strengthen when Alex Scott was sold.

I still think the Phil Alexander SoTC interview was the beginning of the end for him and Nige.

Its happened, they are both gone, and 4 of the back room staff (Orme was leaving anyway) too.

We are still Bristol City, for me it’s really tough to guess which direction we go as it stands.

+++++

Don't want to really mention recruitment, but we’ve been recruiting to a plan / profile for 2 years now, it’s a profile that shouldn’t really make much difference who is in charge.  But I think that looks like a bit of lip-service as it currently stands.  Hey ho.

Its all about opinions Dave. I liked Nige but i really didn't see how the football was evolving in his 3 years in charge, however i appreciate others have a different view.

I understand what Manning's philosophy is and i just want to get behind the team. It may end well, or it may not!

 

[GBF]

I don’t want Manning to build his own squad this summer from what I have seen from him so far. He plays players out of position and our build up play is far too slow and predictable We score most of our goals from transition and IMO the more he coaches the team to keep the ball the less we will score. His in game management is shocking. 

However that said the team are exactly where I thought we would be before a ball was kicked this season. His results are Ok given the squad and I don’t think Pearson would have got us into the play offs this season anyway. 
 

The Big difference is Pearson had earnt the right to be given some funds to spend having sorted out the shit show he inherited  He also has a track record of success at this level  

Manning may be a very good coach in time but has no track record at this level and has failed to improve the teams results with more players available than Pearson

IMO we give Manning to next Christmas with the existing squad to prove he can manage/coach at this level but without a significant budget to make changes  

Unfortunately I don’t have confidence in our Board to appoint a manager capable of getting us into the Top6 and therefore sacking Manning  wouldn’t solve the problem 

 

 

 

[robinforlife2]

I don't Manning is doing a bad job, he's not excelling either, but the tools he inherited, are pretty run of the mill at this level. I look at a team and think how many of our players would walk into another competitive team in the league.

I think we probably have 3 players who tick that box, with Vyner, Matty James and Cam Pring being that three. Jason Knight and Scott Twine are others who not far off that sort of level.

Pearson inherited a better group of players, than Manning has. Granted post Pearson inherited were on too much money or not always firing, but Weimann, Kalas, Scott, Semenyo, to name but 4 were all decent at this level, or highly regarded.

Yes Pearson done what he could, but we weren't progressing and we wouldn't be doing much if any better if he was still here. I personally think that every signing bar Twine would have happened if Pearson was still here too. I have no doubt, many of these were planned and our recruitment team had certain things in place, but what input Manning had, on the January signings I'm unsure, I suspect he was pushing for Twine though, and he is probably the only signing you can accredit to Manning.

I wouldn't say Manning has under achieved either, but the lack of a plan B is holding us back, but imo the Southampton performance has been our best this season, and we never looked capable of that under Nige.

Nige was not the answer, only time will tell if Manning is, but I'm reserving judgement until next season when he will have the basics of his squad and players will know his system. 

[Dr Balls]

7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

We wasted the summer opportunity to strengthen when Alex Scott was sold.

I still think the Phil Alexander SoTC interview was the beginning of the end for him and Nige.

Its happened, they are both gone, and 4 of the back room staff (Orme was leaving anyway) too.

We are still Bristol City, for me it’s really tough to guess which direction we go as it stands.

+++++

Don't want to really mention recruitment, but we’ve been recruiting to a plan / profile for 2 years now, it’s a profile that shouldn’t really make much difference who is in charge.  But I think that looks like a bit of lip-service as it currently stands.  Hey ho.

@Davefevs do you have a link to the Phil Alexander SoTC interview? If not, what did he say that was so inflammatory to SL/JL or damaging to him and Nige?

[Curr Avon]

I've tuned in late. How did the elephant get through the front door?

[City Rocker]

51 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

some bits I like, some I don’t.

Well this sums up the last 40-odd seasons, but let's at least afford Manning the time Nige had to shape his team and culture. 

[The turtle]

3 games ago , the season was done!!

1 came ago I had gone all - michael corleone - and this time they will not tempt me back in. This season is over, time to just enjoy football

........................................................................

I mean even if we do make progress for the rest of this season, who will be here next season?
wells.... could be gone
Twine? 
conway.... if I were him I would leave, as manning and him do not suite.
pring - not hard to see him leaving!
williams?
james?
King?
is bell right for it
can mehmeti mix maverick with some kind of semi consistency
and there are others.

I think it will probably be the summer of revolution, and it kind of has to be. otherwise what was the point in bringing in a manager with ideals and beliefs not suited to the current squad?

if this squad is not suited to manning`s way, essentially the best and worst of them could easily be out the door!
My only fear, even if it does go mostly well....bar the best days, the football is going to bore me to tears anyway simply because the teams we are trying to emulate already do or HAVE endless money.  But, I accept I could easily be totally wrong there and only time will tell.

 

Edited February 20 by The turtle

[glynriley]

1 minute ago, robinforlife2 said:

 

Pearson inherited a better group of players, than Manning has. 

You must be ******* joking

[Davefevs]

Just now, Dr Balls said:

@Davefevs do you have a link to the Phil Alexander SoTC interview? If not, what did he say that was so inflammatory to SL/JL or damaging to him and Nige?

It was right at the end of the transfer window.  Basically sounded like a bloke being told what to say and was very uneasy explaining things.  To my mind he was trying to save his job, and as events unfolded, I think he was trying to save Nige’s too.

As above, it’s all in the past.  My focus is now on Liam Maning’s Bristol City.

[cidercity1987]

1 minute ago, glynriley said:

You must be ******* joking

One of the strangest 10 words I have ever seen in a row

 

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, City Rocker said:

Well this sums up the last 40-odd seasons, but let's at least afford Manning the time Nige had to shape his team and culture. 

Was chatting to a poster at the weekend, my City “career” started with a 1-0 win over Liverpool, followed by a 5-0 win over Coventry.  Boy, they sucked me in good and proper!  Bastards!

[David Brent]

1 minute ago, City Rocker said:

Well this sums up the last 40-odd seasons, but let's at least afford Manning the time Nige had to shape his team and culture. 

I think the point made is that JL and Tinnion suggested that the new head coach wouldn’t need time to get us competing.

Nigel had a much bigger job to do and needed that time. The issue is ultimately with the ones running the club. It’s too late to do anything this season so we have to allow Liam to get on with it. 

[Swede]

We've changed the manager mid season and are trying to change the style of how we play, also mid season with largely the same calibre of players. We were a mid table team without proper investment with Pearson before and we're much the same with Manning now. When I say proper investment I mean we've missed a big opportunity in selling both Scott and Semenyo, two of our best players, and not re investing properly. Scott is a generational talent. We simply just haven't replaced him and kicked on. He was our springboard to propel us upwards. Pearson knew that. He also knew that we needed that investment to get there. The board baulked "Cottrellesque" and reverted to type.

With the popular Pearson he had the experience to navigate these times, Manning doesn't. I've said before that the problem for the unfortunate Manning is that fans will always be even more critical when matters go awry simply because of the way the club finally dealt with Pearson. Crucially, you won't hear Manning giving out barbed comments about investment, he can't, he's just the coach.

The season is pretty much over now. On a positive note you can see the shoots of progress, but missing key players like Sykes has definitely cost us. 

Can he sort out matches against the so called lesser clubs or will he go on one of those LJ type losing runs & never to be seen again, who knows. I don't think even he knows. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

17 minutes ago, spudski said:

My biggest worry with Manning, is I don't trust him to make the right decision on who to select from a squad that is nearing full fitness...apart from now Bell and Atkinson. 

I know we call it a ' squad game', but I have a feeling he will rotate often. 

Trying to keep everyone happy and making the right choice on match day, from a bigger squad to select from I can see being his Achilles heal. 

I'm getting vibes of it already. 

I've not been particularly enamoured by some of his selections and also some of his subs. 

If he also continues to make Mehmetti his number 1 pick nearly every week, then I can see us just doing what we've been doing...being pretty in our own half and toothless in the final third. 

In my opinion he is not a manager/head coach. 

I think he is a damn good coach. But right now he doesn't have the attributes to be a manager/head coach. 

Something bothered me from day 1 about him dropping TGH and persisting with Mehmeti. We've had some baffling team selections and subs ever since then. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

20 minutes ago, Curr Avon said:

I've tuned in late. How did the elephant get through the front door?

It's not an actual elephant. 

It's a life sized drawing of an elephant that JL drew with crayons in the living room. But it's such a bad drawing, we are all pretending it's not there as we don't want to upset Jon. 

Edited February 20 by W-S-M Seagull

[chinapig]

19 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Don't want to really mention recruitment, but we’ve been recruiting to a plan / profile for 2 years now, it’s a profile that shouldn’t really make much difference who is in charge.  But I think that looks like a bit of lip-service as it currently stands.  Hey ho.

For once there was a plan behind our recruitment. The question is does the profile of the players we have signed suit the way Liam wants to play?

If his preference is to control possession then I think not. If so what do we do now when it comes to recruitment? I find it difficult to discern what the plan now is.

[Mr Popodopolous]

On paper Pearson inherited more established players. (Baker, Kalas to name 2, a younger Weimann and others).

In reality, the squad was a broken mess, morale was on the floor, many of the players had run their race.. and 18 months of downsizing was about to hit and hit hard.

[bearded_red]

At the risk of this turning into yet another Pearson/Manning debate, there are two things that can never be let go I’m afraid.

Any suggestion that Pearson inherited a ‘better group of players’ than Manning is absolutely ******* mental. One of the worst shouts I’ve ever heard on any topic. Genuinely staggering.

Liam Manning does not deserve the same time afforded to Pearson either. Pearson was given that time because he inherited an absolute onnishambles and had the track record and experience required to navigate the absolute cluster**** of a situation he found.

Liam Manning was supposedly brought in to improve us this season, he hasn't achieved that. 

Edited February 20 by bearded_red

[Lrrr]

1 minute ago, glynriley said:

You must be ******* joking

Goalkeepers

NP: Bentley, O'Leary

LM: O'Leary, Bajic

RB

NP: Hunt, Sessegnon

LM: McCrorie, Tanner

CB

NP: Kalas, Mawson, Baker, Vyner

LM: Vyner, Dickie, Naismith, Atkinson

LB

NP: Dasilva, Pring

LM: Pring, Roberts

CM

NP: Massengo, Nagy, Scott, Williams, Brunt, Walsh

LM: James, Knight, Williams, TGH, King

Wingers:

NP: Paterson, O'Dowda, Eliasson, Weimann

LM: Bell, Sykes, Mehmeti

AM:

NP: Palmer

LM: (Knight being pushed into here)

ST:

NP: Wells, Diedhiou, Conway

LM: Wells, Conway, Cornick

 

I think the only positions I'd take Manning's players would be RB & CM otherwise I'd take the options Pearson inherited. I'd say now our squad looks better rounded but I think there was better quality in the squad Pearson inherited. 

[TonyTonyTony]

1 minute ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

persisting with Mehmeti.

Mehmeti has got better since Manning has played him. Much better. His end product still needs a lot of work, but Pearson didnt seem to rate him. Would you credit Manning for improving one of our investments?

 

[Rudolf Hucker]

18 minutes ago, Curr Avon said:

I've tuned in late. How did the elephant get through the front door?

Hidden in a trunk..

[spudski]

3 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

In my opinion he is not a manager/head coach. 

I think he is a damn good coach. But right now he doesn't have the attributes to be a manager/head coach. 

Something bothered me from day 1 about him dropping TGH and persisting with Mehmeti. We've had some baffling team selections and subs ever since then. 

I agree...his ' obsession ' with Mehmetti is not justified imo. 

 

[formerly known as ivan]

I do not think there is an elephant in the room. Some people took the words of the Lansdowns and Tinnion literally, me being one of them. Because of this Manning gets stick when things don’t go our way.

Others say they have seen enough to show promise and progress to move the club forward.

The one thing most agree on is the words spoken by those running the club are complete BS!

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Lrrr said:

Absolutely ****ing pathetic post

• The 'we have a squad capable of competing' comment was justification for getting rid of Pearson when they did otherwise they didn't have it
• Its definitely not the best squad inherited, if its the fittest because we've decided to go out and sign athletes which any manager previously could have done, but this is a general trend in English top couple of divisions anyway so we'd have been left behind if we didn't do it. 
• We've given Manning little by way to change the squad/invest, in January he's been given a Murphy who isn't ready for first team, 2 signings who've been loaned straight back out in Bird & Stokes. So only Twine & Mebude as loanees who could potentially influence the first team now. 

Are there games we should have won that we've lost? Sure, but anyone is deluded if they think this squad SHOULD be in the top 6 or even just outside. Its a top 10 squad at best and everyone on here knows Pearson was doing a fine job and frankly Manning has us around where we should be. Pearson offered us our first bit of stability in ages, we can't go back to 20 games without play off form means the sack.

 

1 hour ago, Super said:

Same shit different day.

Debate, critique and perhaps some simmering discontent will continue while there are nagging doubts as to whether a change has been made got the better.

The sacking feels one of the worst decisions but time will tell.

Edited February 20 by Mr Popodopolous

[W-S-M Seagull]

15 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

It was right at the end of the transfer window.  Basically sounded like a bloke being told what to say and was very uneasy explaining things.  To my mind he was trying to save his job, and as events unfolded, I think he was trying to save Nige’s too.

As above, it’s all in the past.  My focus is now on Liam Maning’s Bristol City.

Called Nige football royalty didn't he? 

Those two words spelt the end for the both of them. 

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, chinapig said:

For once there was a plan behind our recruitment. The question is does the profile of the players we have signed suit the way Liam wants to play?

If his preference is to control possession then I think not. If so what do we do now when it comes to recruitment? I find it difficult to discern what the plan now is.

The good thing is that even if you want to pass the ball, you still have to be able to run.  I think there are plenty of players in the squad with good enough technical ability.  Depends whether you want to force a passing style or not.

[Robbored]

12 minutes ago, spudski said:

My biggest worry with Manning, is I don't trust him to make the right decision on who to select from a squad that is nearing full fitness...apart from now Bell and Atkinson. 

I know we call it a ' squad game', but I have a feeling he will rotate often. 

Trying to keep everyone happy and making the right choice on match day, from a bigger squad to select from I can see being his Achilles heal. 

I'm getting vibes of it already. 

I've not been particularly enamoured by some of his selections and also some of his subs. 

If he also continues to make Mehmetti his number 1 pick nearly every week, then I can see us just doing what we've been doing...being pretty in our own half and toothless in the final third. 

I think that it’s premature to pass any kind of judgment on Manning who has inherited Nige’s squad which according to JL is good enough to be promotion candidates 

However - he’s only been in post a relevantly short time but it’s fair to say he hasn’t improved results as yet nor has he impressed us fans. None of us can actually see what his methods and strategies are despite there being several football savvy posters on here.

He bleats on about the relentless nature of the Championship and not having enough time to ‘work on the grass’ but every other Championship manager is in the same situation - he needs to bloody well get over it and realise that he’s in with the big boys now.

The summer will be when we’ll get a better idea of what he’s about.

[Lrrr]

3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

 

Debate, critique and perhaps some simmering discontent will continue while there are nagging doubts as to whether a change has been made got the better.

The sacking feels one of the worst decisions but time will tell.

Pearson wasn't sacked for results, it was all BS though and cover for the reason they did sack him. He was off at the end of the season anyway as we were never going to offer him a new deal. This shouldn't be projected onto Manning as 'we never should have got rid of Pearson'. This has got all the feelings of how Johnson was criticised early for the 'Cotts should never have been sacked' sort of thing.

[glynriley]

4 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

Goalkeepers

NP: Bentley, O'Leary

LM: O'Leary, Bajic

RB

NP: Hunt, Sessegnon

LM: McCrorie, Tanner

CB

NP: Kalas, Mawson, Baker, Vyner

LM: Vyner, Dickie, Naismith, Atkinson

LB

NP: Dasilva, Pring

LM: Pring, Roberts

CM

NP: Massengo, Nagy, Scott, Williams, Brunt, Walsh

LM: James, Knight, Williams, TGH, King

Wingers:

NP: Paterson, O'Dowda, Eliasson, Weimann

LM: Bell, Sykes, Mehmeti

AM:

NP: Palmer

LM: (Knight being pushed into here)

ST:

NP: Wells, Diedhiou, Conway

LM: Wells, Conway, Cornick

 

I think the only positions I'd take Manning's players would be RB & CM otherwise I'd take the options Pearson inherited. I'd say now our squad looks better rounded but I think there was better quality in the squad Pearson inherited. 

Mawson, Baker, Dasilva and Weimann were all injured for the majority of the season Pearson took over. 
 

Fam and Nagy were looking for a way out and we were playing Bakinson, Taylor Moore, Tommy Rowe and Bakinson far more than we should have been. 
 

Semenyo was a raw kid and Alex Scott was nowhere near the first team. 
 

All about opinions, but your selective memory won’t convince me that we were in a better place then.