The elephant in the room

[And Its Smith]

4 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

It's the million dollar question why we can do well against those teams but struggle against the likes of QPR. We were also terrible against Leeds. 

I don't know if it's a motivational thing or a tactics thing or what. But that's for Manning to work out as so far he has failed to do so. 

Sunderland saw it wasn't working with Beale so got rid. At this point in time I've seen very little to suggest that Manning can take us forward. Only blind faith. 

Pearson produced inconsistent results as well. Can’t remember you talking similarly at those points 

[Mr Popodopolous]

27 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

This…

…escalated quicker than this thread!

I was going to post a thread but the perhaps it can go in here.

Sesson over realistically today do we think, effectively? Or was that Saturday.

Obviously we should still IMO he aiming at 60-65 pts, plus the home games we should look to he as strong at home as possible, but to all intents and purposes it feels over.

[W-S-M Seagull]

3 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

The elephant in the room is that Manning gets criticised by some for a defeat much more than Pearson used too. And gets praised less for a win.  

Have you considered that maybe that's because expections are different? 

For 2 and a half years Nigel was having to firefight therefore lower expectations. 

He did all the dirty work for Manning. 

We are in very difficult circumstances now. Now ffp problems. No huge injury issues. No dead wood. No bad eggs in the squad etc etc etc. 

Manning has come in here and inherited a decent squad. He's had greater player availability and there has been no noticeable improvements. 

There was an expectation that Nige was to take us to the next level this season. He was sacked for not doing so. Manning has failed to take us to that next level this season also despite that being the expectation. 

I described our wins Vs Saints as the complete performance and the best in years. Never described any of Nigels wins like that. Don't think anyone did. But that wouldn't suit the narrative of your post. 

[And Its Smith]

10 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

After 33 games (18 under Manning) we are now at the point where we ended last season. 

Its gonna take quite some effort to try and better last seasons difference. 

After 33 games last season we were 9 points off. So we've ever so slightly regressed and certainly not taken the steps forward that we were supposed to. 

For fairness purposes I'll mention After 33 games last season we were on 42 points and 6th on 51. Now we're on 44 points with 6th on 54th. So points wise we've slightly improved but then so has the rest of the Championship. 

We are treading water at best. 

Lost Scott and Semenyo, not replaced them with the same quality….and treading water.

[And Its Smith]

1 minute ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Have you considered that maybe that's because expections are different? 

For 2 and a half years Nigel was having to firefight therefore lower expectations. 

He did all the dirty work for Manning. 

We are in very difficult circumstances now. Now ffp problems. No huge injury issues. No dead wood. No bad eggs in the squad etc etc etc. 

Manning has come in here and inherited a decent squad. He's had greater player availability and there has been no noticeable improvements. 

There was an expectation that Nige was to take us to the next level this season. He was sacked for not doing so. Manning has failed to take us to that next level this season also despite that being the expectation. 

I described our wins Vs Saints as the complete performance and the best in years. Never described any of Nigels wins like that. Don't think anyone did. But that wouldn't suit the narrative of your post. 

So you are softly implying a coach should/could be sacked who two games ago produced our best performance in years?  Bizarre take 

[W-S-M Seagull]

2 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

Lost Scott and Semenyo, not replaced them with the same quality….and treading water.

I'm not sure if you are using this as an excuse for us treading water or if you're saying Pearson was harshly sacked because his two best players were sold? 

[And Its Smith]

2 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I'm not sure if you are using this as an excuse for us treading water or if you're saying Pearson was harshly sacked because his two best players were sold? 

Both can be true and are.  

[pogue malone]

27 pts dropped at home this season, and another 18 pts to play for, thats why we are mid table, same every season

[BCFCGav]

Very fair points raised, not sure why some people get so aggro when someone on a forum posts a view that isn’t all sunshine and rainbows! 
 

We all knew the appointment post Pearson was a really important one as he’s a very good ‘lay the groundwork’ manager. You could also argue, as many have, that we sacked him too soon while the groundwork was still progressing; for reasons only the billionaires will ever truly know. 
 

Early signs are it’s a poor appointment given the massive clash in styles between Nige and Liam, so I can see the cut your losses argument. Worth noting LM has a lower PPG this season than Nige, so he’s entirely failing on the remit he was supposedly brought in for. Getting more out of this squad now.

All that said. He’s here now, he’s on a long old contract, and we have seen some exciting signs here and there. I think the Lansdown’s have probably screwed up again, but I’m not taking that out on Liam. I’m behind him for a while yet!

[downendcity]

1 hour ago, Curr Avon said:

I've tuned in late. How did the elephant get through the front door?

I don't know, but rumours are that Manning is playing him up front alongside Wells at Wednesday!

Edited February 20 by downendcity

[Robbored]

13 minutes ago, spudski said:

You need structure, but within that structure you need players to be able to express themselves, but when doing so, making the right decision, and realising if the reward is worth the risk,I or will it leave the team open to being exploited. 

We are structured, easy to read. We don't have anyone capable of opening up defences on a consistent enough basis. 

The first highlight is my point about players using their instinct and intuition - does the structure allow them to actually use those skills during games?

The second highlight is spot on - as we saw against QPR

Manning didn’t have a plan B when the structure was compromised - that’s very concerning.

[JAWS]

Even if we had Pep I don't think we'd be a lot better off. It's a pretty low budget squad by championship standards. The Lansclowns are either deluded or pulling our plonkers. The truth is probably somewhere between.

[robin_unreliant]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

My biggest worry with Manning, is I don't trust him to make the right decision on who to select from a squad that is nearing full fitness...apart from now Bell and Atkinson. 

I have the same worry. Rather like LJ, overthinks it. Johnson's best runs were when we were down to the bare bones and he had to ditch the tombola. I fear Liam may suffer from the same affliction and disappear up his own ass trying to be too clever.

[Silvio Dante]

I don’t know, you go to the pub for an evening and miss all the action!

I think there are some valid points in the OP but the message may be being lost by the postman. Thats normal, happens whether positive or negatives are posted based on confirmation bias.

I’d likely be seen as someone who is Manning sceptic (and I am). I think it is a valid point as to whether you want to give him a huge budget in the summer to reshape the squad as it seems he cannot - at least consistently- get the team playing the way he wants.

But that’s not the elephant in the room, and to be consistent, his game management is. It has been since day one here and his lack of adaptability was a thematic at prior roles.

The issue, as I said on another thread, is that you can give him the money to get players to play his way (and I think we will as the chuckle brothers have too much to lose). But until he’s able to quickly deviate from a plan when needed in a match and react in a game it’s going to be a big Achilles heel - and no amount of money can solve it.

I’m probably with him where I was at the start - he seems fantastic analytically, a very good technical and development coach but he’s not showing he can manage a game. And I think he does need to improve that, consistently, over 13 games when we’re not going up or down and there isn’t the (nonsense) schedule excuse.

But, by God, comparisons between Pearson and Manning really help nobody and are pointless. Take his faults and his positives on their own merits and it becomes a far better discussion.

Edited February 20 by Silvio Dante

[JAWS]

Our January business has a feeling of deja vu when we signed Kent & Diony on loan, the latter with an agreed fee.  

[tin]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I think the OP makes some valid points.

But having reached my first full view over the past couple of weeks, I’m just gonna sit and watch the rest of the season play out.  I don’t think much will change from what I’ve seen so far, some bits I like, some I don’t.

Absolutely this. But my 10p worth is that the odds are against every manager or head coach who works under the Lansdowns and Tinnion. Their legacy is failure. 

By and large, Manningball doesn’t do it for me so far. I don’t see progress other than those Cup games and I don’t accept the excuses as he has a largely fully fit squad now. Watford away, Boro away for 45 minutes, Southampton at home — great. The rest has been dross and 9 points in 9 games reflects that.

@Silvio Dante made the point about his in-game management being his Achilles heel and I’ve seen evidence of that so far, which is another cause for concern. But I think Pep would fail working for this regime. 

[Wanderingred]

I try not to judge Manning based on the ridiculous expectation set by the board for this season.  I understand why some do, but for me it just highlights where the real problem lies. 

For the here and now, I think Manning is doing about as well as could be expected with this squad of players. We might have been a couple of points better off under Nige with his greater experience (who knows) but I think top ten is about our ceiling as things stand. And surely if you look at the value and cost of our squad, we’re about where we should be? Comfortably safe, but a long way off the parachute teams who have huge budgets.

I also understand the OP’s concern about this summer. There will be a lot of comings and goings as Manning tries to tweak the squad to suit his style of play. What we see then will look quite different to what we have now. Do I have faith in him to get things right? I have real doubts to be honest, but then I have even bigger doubts at the ability of the board to find another option that would be successful. As a city fan, I’m jaded by years of false promise and underachievement. I can’t see how a change in management or vision at this stage would make any difference with the current people running the show, so I figure we might as well roll with it and see what happens.

[JAWS]

Which of our players would any of the top 6 swap their equivalents for?

One of them would probably take Pring,

MAYBE Conway, Dickie, Knight or Sykes

A top ten finish with this squad is probably over-achieving, maybe even top half

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 minutes ago, JAWS said:

Our January business has a feeling of deja vu when we signed Kent & Diony on loan, the latter with an agreed fee.  

Not sure about that. Twine when fit will be good I reckon, Dire who knows, Bird has a lot of experience including 100 Championship games under his belt before age 24.

Money was a tad tighter in January 2018 due to the 3 year rule but that is another issue...that season we in that season made a record loss (at that time) in the same season as a record (at that time) turnover.

[Mr Popodopolous]

10 minutes ago, tin said:

Absolutely this. But my 10p worth is that the odds are against every manager or head coach who works under the Lansdowns and Tinnion. Their legacy is failure. 

By and large, Manningball doesn’t do it for me so far. I don’t see progress other than those Cup games and I don’t accept the excuses as he has a largely fully fit squad now. Watford away, Boro away for 45 minutes, Southampton at home — great. The rest has been dross and 9 points in 9 games reflects that.

@Silvio Dante made the point about his in-game management being his Achilles heel and I’ve seen evidence of that so far, which is another cause for concern. But I think Pep would fail working for this regime. 

Hull at Home? Sunderland at Home was solid if under pressure and Coventry Away, Watford at Home weren't so bad.

Otherwise mostly agree with your post but some of these games has good points. Not top notch but not dross either IMO.

Edited February 20 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just on the budget point, this isn't intended as a criticism or a praise but I reckon our turnover is probably 2nd or 3rd outside of the Parachute sides.

Sunderland likely ahead of us, can't think of many others in all likelihood.. 

[DaveInSA]

I’ve made my judgement on Manning.

Whatever I think matters not one jot. Because of the leadership (or lack thereof) at the top.

its just so predictable.

i’ll be absolutely delighted if we’re still in this division at the end of his contract. 

[pillred]

57 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

It's the million dollar question why we can do well against those teams but struggle against the likes of QPR. We were also terrible against Leeds. 

I don't know if it's a motivational thing or a tactics thing or what. But that's for Manning to work out as so far he has failed to do so. 

Sunderland saw it wasn't working with Beale so got rid. At this point in time I've seen very little to suggest that Manning can take us forward. Only blind faith. 

I still think we should reserve judgment, 20 odd games are a bit soon to decide on his future. 

[JAWS]

11 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Not sure about that. Twine when fit will be good I reckon, Dire who knows, Bird has a lot of experience including 100 Championship games under his belt before age 24.

Money was a tad tighter in January 2018 due to the 3 year rule but that is another issue...that season we in that season made a record loss (at that time) in the same season as a record (at that time) turnover.

Yes agree Twine looked a good signing, but Hull fans were not that complimentary. Dire is a punt like Diony. Point being we needed something for the here & now not a punt. And as you have pointed out on previous threads we are in a better position than we have been for a while financially so it's disappointing given the final 3rd is where we needed that 'here & now', given we were one point off 6th after Boxing Day.

[spudski]

28 minutes ago, robin_unreliant said:

I have the same worry. Rather like LJ, overthinks it. Johnson's best runs were when we were down to the bare bones and he had to ditch the tombola. I fear Liam may suffer from the same affliction and disappear up his own ass trying to be too clever.

I have that same feeling. 

[italian dave]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

On paper Pearson inherited more established players. (Baker, Kalas to name 2, a younger Weimann and others).

In reality, the squad was a broken mess, morale was on the floor, many of the players had run their race.. and 18 months of downsizing was about to hit and hit hard.

I think that's exactly the point - and why that particular argument is all a bit pointless!

He inherited what was, on paper, a better group of players. But he inherited them with a brief to get rid, to reduce the size of the squad, to reduce costs massively.

Manning inherits what may, man for man, not be as good on paper, but with the brief to build on what's already there.

[Wanderingred]

38 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Just on the budget point, this isn't intended as a criticism or a praise but I reckon our turnover is probably 2nd or 3rd outside of the Parachute sides.

Sunderland likely ahead of us, can't think of many others in all likelihood.. 

Which teams still have parachute payments? I’m guessing Saints, Leicester, Leeds, Watford, Norwich and West Brom. Any others?

I’d guess that Hull and Middlesbrough both have bigger budgets than us too, and perhaps Stoke? Would be interesting to see.

[SydneyCity]

Maybe a bit harsh, but I don’t think Manning has his own style of play. He has “modern football 101”, which is why it’s so predictable and easy for other teams/managers to work out. They’ve all read the same textbook.

He needs to develop his own tweaks to the system to make it effective. This could come with a few years of real-world, fan facing, experience but I think he’s jumped up a level a few years too soon. I don’t blame him for this, but he should have spent a few more years honing his own style in leagues that are less tightly contested.

Modern football 101 will be occasionally successful against some of the Prem/Parachute teams but will ultimately fail due to those teams being able to outspend and out quality us. The rest of the Championship will just disrupt our predictable play.

My fears are, we’re paying for him to develop his own style, rather than getting someone in who has already been on that journey. Best case, we honour his contract but don’t really progress beyond mid-table to just outside the playoffs. Manning leaves on mildly amicable terms and goes on to have a decent career having got to tinker with his system at City. Worst case, we fail miserably next season and are left rudderless with a bunch of players who don’t fit any system.

[Mr Popodopolous]

16 minutes ago, Wanderingred said:

Which teams still have parachute payments? I’m guessing Saints, Leicester, Leeds, Watford, Norwich and West Brom. Any others?

I’d guess that Hull and Middlesbrough both have bigger budgets than us too, and perhaps Stoke? Would be interesting to see.

West Brom are in a post Parachute era. Only the first 5.

In addition, Bigger budget yes, bigger revenue probably not. Birmingham likely have a higher wage bill, Coventry after their splurge maybe. West Brom less turnover but probably a higher football cost base (wages and amortisation).

Hull, Middlesbrough, Stoke too I expect.

Others it is harder to say.

Sunderland perhaps higher turnover, but less expenditure on squad.

Edited February 21 by Mr Popodopolous

[W-S-M Seagull]

11 minutes ago, SydneyCity said:

 Worst case, we fail miserably next season and are left rudderless with a bunch of players who don’t fit any system.

Thats my worry and what I was trying to allude to in my post. 

If we continue like we have done for the remainder of the season, do we really want to commit to having a summer with Manning?