The elephant in the room

[RollsRoyce]

39 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

I agree - but also surely the managers (head coach, whatever) job is to get the players performing at a level above their raw expectation?

If we have a 14th place budget, and a 14th place squad, and the manager gets them finishing in 14th that's not even a good job for me - that's just bang average. They're doing exactly what you'd expect.

Could you make the argument that a good manager would get the squad finishing above that?

I agree with your entire post for the record, but just playing devil's advocate - why? I think we could perhaps get better at spotting when a manager isn't doing the job and ditch them sooner. I'd use Lee as an example, Gary before him, and many would also point to Pearson (I wouldn't but many would!).

We're a club who now are very used to our recent managers being given a fair chunk of time and leaving us pretty much where we started. Should we be more ruthless? The current "give them time, let them build their own squad" philosophy doesn't really seem to be paying dividends does it. I'm not advocating the Watford route of course, but we are a bit of an outlier I think.

Whether we have the right people at the club to be making those calls is another question of course... and we probably know the answer to that.

This is an interesting point, as I think the discussion is narrowing down to one where we are asking, have we seen enough of Manning to entrust him with a summer, and a rebuild and taking the club forward.

I am still wanting to see the season out, but I have also seen enough to be concerned that we are repeating old errors, and are now risking being the training post for Manning. That is a potential concern, but I cannot take Manning in isolation. I will try to explain. 

It is clear to me, that yet again we were lied to by the owners, but it is also no shock. We have plenty of history there. What is more concerning, and is probably at the core of why we have not progressed, is that there is muddled thinking and even worse, little substantial change to how we operate to create any further forward momentum.

That we are even talking about a rebuild this summer is astonishing, as it means that Manning was  the wrong appointment. Not Manning as a person, but Manning as a footballing philosophy. The fit is wrong for both sides if we are talking about a rebuild. We needed to build on what we had. This is a very different challenge and will indicate yet again a club without direction. Would Brighton or Brentford be talking about a rebuild if they lost De Zerbi or Frank? Not a chance. Also, you can add Luton to those two. 

At the core of our issues is that we have not had a club identity or direction, for years, Nige was the first time we looked to create that (This is not a Nige argument BTW) and I think, from what I could hear and  see, many fans could also see that. So when you make a change, and it would have happened one day, what needed to happen was an evolution and continuation. That is the logic, that is what the previous mentioned clubs have done, for years. Yet we are not doing that are we?

This brings me to where I feel the core issue lies at BCFC, and it is with the direction and leadership. I do not believe we have sufficient quality at the club to drive the football direction or recruitment. It is a catastrophic failure of recruitment to have hired Manning (again not the person) who has a philosophy far removed from the direction the club was heading or recruited to. Equally, I would also be asking do I think the current club structure is able or capable of delivering a rebuild, and my answer to that is no. It is exacerbated by the concern we could not attract the people we need to take the club forward due to the paucity of leadership talent. 

I would be very concerned about Manning and Tinnion leading a rebuild in the summer. Neither has the depth of knowledge or experience to lead such a change. If indeed the club will allow Manning to rebuild, that is a forum concept created to explain his relative failure this season. 

But we cannot take Manning in isolation, it is the whole football operation that needs a review, because change Manning, and you end up with the same defects. If , and it is an if as I want to see this season out to see if he learns and adapts, I would like to see Manning replaced, I would also change Tinnion and the recruitment team at the same time, and raise the ability and quality of the whole football operation. 

[BLRed]

The biggest fault was not signing that all important goalscorer. Was happy with our overall business but the glaringly obvious issue was our lack of goals and someone that is capable of scoring them regularly off his own back if not from good supply.

that is the big failing and that is down to tinnion et al and the inability to identify and attract one to the club. Yes, there may be a plan for a specific player in the summer, but as with others, when needed, plans could and should be brought forward where needs must.

come the summer, we won’t have twine as we failed to agree a future fee with the loan. No doubt he will either stay with Burnley or another promotion contender will snap him up which would put us even further behind in the creativity stakes.

i don’t blame manning and can see progress (recent abysmal performance aside against QPR). Everything come down to recruitment.

[spudski]

16 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

You could be describing the best teams in the Country. 

The best teams, have the very best players. As top coaches have said, if you've got the best players, they will win regardless...

[And Its Smith]

9 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Nothing to do with Nigel Pearson mate. 

He's gone. Get over it. I'm talking about the here and the now. You know, the 9 points from 9 games here and now? 

I've constructed a well thought through post that asks many questions based on evidence. If you would like to debate those things then please do so instead of trying to frame this as something completely different. 

Any manager who came in and only got 1.27 ppg and just 6(7) wins from 18(22) didn't stand a chance with me. 

The fact you're not debating the evidence I presented tells its own story. 

It was pointed out that 2 games ago we produced the best performance for years (your words) and now you post this thread.  It doesn’t make sense. 

[Cowshed]

Just now, spudski said:

The best teams, have the very best players. As top coaches have said, if you've got the best players, they will win regardless...

Top coaches say a lot of things. You can have the best players and be underperforming for years. A former top team in the EPL assemble top top players together and do not win regardless. 

The best teams have structure. Liam Manning is creating it, forming and establishing. Building towards a model and identity.

Its interesting to see how this progresses when he is inhibited by players limitations in key positions. 

[Riaz]

Nah, Manning hasnt failed.

He's performed exactly how i expected him to perform

He's probably failed in the eyes of Jon Lansdown - but thats because he's deluded enough to think we have a top 6 squad.

I've seen signs of what a manning team will look like and we have played good football at times.

The style of play that manning teams play, was always going to take time. I'll judge him next season... that said, getting involved in a relegation scrap this season wouldnt be acceptable. But i expect we'll climb up the table towards the end of the season and then next season he can be judged.

[Edgy Red]

1 hour ago, RollsRoyce said:

What is Manning's philosophy? 

He wants a posession based team that presses high.

The modern game is dominated by teams that can retain controlled posession. That will mean passing around at the back and from side to side until spaces appear and we can play through the lines. I hear the moans and groans from fans already when we do it, but the alternative (which we frequently did under Nige) is to play 50 yard high balls to Conway and Wells and then watch it come straight back.

Manning needs time and a few of his own signings before he can be judged.

 

 

[Silvio Dante]

23 minutes ago, RollsRoyce said:

This is an interesting point, as I think the discussion is narrowing down to one where we are asking, have we seen enough of Manning to entrust him with a summer, and a rebuild and taking the club forward.

I am still wanting to see the season out, but I have also seen enough to be concerned that we are repeating old errors, and are now risking being the training post for Manning. That is a potential concern, but I cannot take Manning in isolation. I will try to explain. 

It is clear to me, that yet again we were lied to by the owners, but it is also no shock. We have plenty of history there. What is more concerning, and is probably at the core of why we have not progressed, is that there is muddled thinking and even worse, little substantial change to how we operate to create any further forward momentum.

That we are even talking about a rebuild this summer is astonishing, as it means that Manning was  the wrong appointment. Not Manning as a person, but Manning as a footballing philosophy. The fit is wrong for both sides if we are talking about a rebuild. We needed to build on what we had. This is a very different challenge and will indicate yet again a club without direction. Would Brighton or Brentford be talking about a rebuild if they lost De Zerbi or Frank? Not a chance. Also, you can add Luton to those two. 

At the core of our issues is that we have not had a club identity or direction, for years, Nige was the first time we looked to create that (This is not a Nige argument BTW) and I think, from what I could hear and  see, many fans could also see that. So when you make a change, and it would have happened one day, what needed to happen was an evolution and continuation. That is the logic, that is what the previous mentioned clubs have done, for years. Yet we are not doing that are we?

This brings me to where I feel the core issue lies at BCFC, and it is with the direction and leadership. I do not believe we have sufficient quality at the club to drive the football direction or recruitment. It is a catastrophic failure of recruitment to have hired Manning (again not the person) who has a philosophy far removed from the direction the club was heading or recruited to. Equally, I would also be asking do I think the current club structure is able or capable of delivering a rebuild, and my answer to that is no. It is exacerbated by the concern we could not attract the people we need to take the club forward due to the paucity of leadership talent. 

I would be very concerned about Manning and Tinnion leading a rebuild in the summer. Neither has the depth of knowledge or experience to lead such a change. If indeed the club will allow Manning to rebuild, that is a forum concept created to explain his relative failure this season. 

But we cannot take Manning in isolation, it is the whole football operation that needs a review, because change Manning, and you end up with the same defects. If , and it is an if as I want to see this season out to see if he learns and adapts, I would like to see Manning replaced, I would also change Tinnion and the recruitment team at the same time, and raise the ability and quality of the whole football operation. 

Really, really good post and reflective of where I am. Regrettably I think even if the (unlikely) decision to get rid of Liam in the summer was made (not saying we should, but if it is the right thing then we should be brave), we have no chance of Tinnion also going. 
 

However, not trusting Brian and Jon to choose the next man should in no way be a reason to keep Liam if he’s not deemed the right fit for the reasons you identify. That would just set us back further.

 

[spudski]

9 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Top coaches say a lot of things. You can have the best players and be underperforming for years. A former top team in the EPL assemble top top players together and do not win regardless. 

The best teams have structure. Liam Manning is creating it, forming and establishing. Building towards a model and identity.

Its interesting to see how this progresses when he is inhibited by players limitations in key positions. 

Yes that's a given. 

Opposition coaches have said we play with a clear identity. The QPR coach spoke about it, and how he nullified it. 

Limitations are already to the fore in how he's trying to play in the final third. 

[exAtyeoMax]

35 minutes ago, RollsRoyce said:

This is an interesting point, as I think the discussion is narrowing down to one where we are asking, have we seen enough of Manning to entrust him with a summer, and a rebuild and taking the club forward.

I am still wanting to see the season out, but I have also seen enough to be concerned that we are repeating old errors, and are now risking being the training post for Manning. That is a potential concern, but I cannot take Manning in isolation. I will try to explain. 

It is clear to me, that yet again we were lied to by the owners, but it is also no shock. We have plenty of history there. What is more concerning, and is probably at the core of why we have not progressed, is that there is muddled thinking and even worse, little substantial change to how we operate to create any further forward momentum.

That we are even talking about a rebuild this summer is astonishing, as it means that Manning was  the wrong appointment. Not Manning as a person, but Manning as a footballing philosophy. The fit is wrong for both sides if we are talking about a rebuild. We needed to build on what we had. This is a very different challenge and will indicate yet again a club without direction. Would Brighton or Brentford be talking about a rebuild if they lost De Zerbi or Frank? Not a chance. Also, you can add Luton to those two. 

At the core of our issues is that we have not had a club identity or direction, for years, Nige was the first time we looked to create that (This is not a Nige argument BTW) and I think, from what I could hear and  see, many fans could also see that. So when you make a change, and it would have happened one day, what needed to happen was an evolution and continuation. That is the logic, that is what the previous mentioned clubs have done, for years. Yet we are not doing that are we?

This brings me to where I feel the core issue lies at BCFC, and it is with the direction and leadership. I do not believe we have sufficient quality at the club to drive the football direction or recruitment. It is a catastrophic failure of recruitment to have hired Manning (again not the person) who has a philosophy far removed from the direction the club was heading or recruited to. Equally, I would also be asking do I think the current club structure is able or capable of delivering a rebuild, and my answer to that is no. It is exacerbated by the concern we could not attract the people we need to take the club forward due to the paucity of leadership talent. 

I would be very concerned about Manning and Tinnion leading a rebuild in the summer. Neither has the depth of knowledge or experience to lead such a change. If indeed the club will allow Manning to rebuild, that is a forum concept created to explain his relative failure this season. 

But we cannot take Manning in isolation, it is the whole football operation that needs a review, because change Manning, and you end up with the same defects. If , and it is an if as I want to see this season out to see if he learns and adapts, I would like to see Manning replaced, I would also change Tinnion and the recruitment team at the same time, and raise the ability and quality of the whole football operation. 

This  

[The Journalist]

1 hour ago, IAmNick said:

I agree with your entire post for the record, but just playing devil's advocate - why? I think we could perhaps get better at spotting when a manager isn't doing the job and ditch them sooner. I'd use Lee as an example, Gary before him, and many would also point to Pearson (I wouldn't but many would!)

It’s a fair question… I guess because I like to think of us as a pretty reasonable, patient fanbase and I’d always prefer to go a game too many than a game too few.

Is that ruthless enough? Admittedly, arguably not!

[exAtyeoMax]

5 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Really, really good post and reflective of where I am. Regrettably I think even if the (unlikely) decision to get rid of Liam in the summer was made (not saying we should, but if it is the right thing then we should be brave), we have no chance of Tinnion also going. 
 

However, not trusting Brian and Jon to choose the next man should in no way be a reason to keep Liam if he’s not deemed the right fit for the reasons you identify. That would just set us back further.

 

unfortunately they'd probably appoint someone who wasn't right for the club anyway, especially if it meant they could protect their own management structure.

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

I’m not sure it does (and that may be confirmation bias!)

The examples I tend to give here are Johnson in 2017 and Osman in 1994. The performances under the former against Palace, Stoke and the Manchester clubs were in keeping with the league performances at the time and you could say were genuinely reflective of where we were at the time. The latter were an anomaly.

What I’m saying is to remove any of the variables from the cup games (prem team playing reserve players, motivation etc) it is reasonable to judge on league performance only - good or bad when considering a wider trend of where you are as a club.

As they say “the leagues the bread and butter”

 

Yep, exactly why I don’t use cup match data, they are a small sample and ultimately not comparable to league. 

1 hour ago, Gaseater said:

It’s an interesting idea that I actually disagree with. I would argue that under Cotts we played a far more simpler style of play - but just had very good tools in L1 that made it especially effective….it might be the case that the complexity is why we are struggling to grasp it and score more goals - I think it’s an interesting question. 

I think it’s more simple. Others have covered it, we had good players. I think that lg1 squad could’ve played different ways, but Cotts decided his way and it was a small squad too.

At its most basic it’s why Martin-ball is succeeding at Saints but didn’t at Swansea!

34 minutes ago, BLRed said:

The biggest fault was not signing that all important goalscorer. Was happy with our overall business but the glaringly obvious issue was our lack of goals and someone that is capable of scoring them regularly off his own back if not from good supply.

that is the big failing and that is down to tinnion et al and the inability to identify and attract one to the club. Yes, there may be a plan for a specific player in the summer, but as with others, when needed, plans could and should be brought forward where needs must.

come the summer, we won’t have twine as we failed to agree a future fee with the loan. No doubt he will either stay with Burnley or another promotion contender will snap him up which would put us even further behind in the creativity stakes.

i don’t blame manning and can see progress (recent abysmal performance aside against QPR). Everything come down to recruitment.

It really wasn’t.  We don’t create chances, the player up top isn’t gonna be the difference maker you see. 

[SydneyCity]

51 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

The problem is that the higher up you go the greater discipline opponents have and they don’t do what you want them to do.

I mentioned on another thread that for our current style to work regularly in the Championship, we need to break the opponent's concentration through moments of skill and/or drawing contact and getting physical.

The trouble is, hoping for moments of skill from our current crop isn't a reliable plan, so we'd need to splash the cash on a couple of consistently creative players - which the club seems reluctant to do.

Manningball would also never condone an emotionally charged, dark arts, approach (although William's did a phenomenal job of winding up West Ham to great effect) and would instead ask the players to trust the process and patterns regardless of what's happening on the pitch.

We're stuck between a rock and a hard place.

As a side note, I'd actually like to see Yeboah back in and around the squad now we're more or less guaranteed safety. He's a big, fast, physical player who can bring moments of unpredictability and break defender's concentration. Regularly put him on with 20 to go, winning or losing, and hopefully those moments of unpredictability would turn into moments of skill as his minutes grow.

[And Its Smith]

13 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, exactly why I don’t use cup match data, they are a small sample and ultimately not comparable to league. 

I think it’s more simple. Others have covered it, we had good players. I think that lg1 squad could’ve played different ways, but Cotts decided his way and it was a small squad too.

At its most basic it’s why Martin-ball is succeeding at Saints but didn’t at Swansea!

It really wasn’t.  We don’t create chances, the player up top isn’t gonna be the difference maker you see. 

I disagree with your last point.  A striker can help create chances for others and bring others into play more. We don’t have that type of striker right now 

[Jose]

Do I think the points return is good enough? No!

Are there signs of possible improvement? No not really!

Do I trust the clowns at the top to find a decent replacement? Absolutely ******* not. 
 

We need to bare with him, back him and hope things improve. 

[RedRoss]

Summary of this topic.

We have a mid table squad yet because the ownership stupidly said we were a top 6 squad (almost everyone disagrees with this) to justify sacking Nigel. Now we're achieving mid table we keep getting Pearson/Manning who would have done better discussions.

We are bang average. I'm not sure either manager would squeeze much more out of the squad. If so marginally. Either way it's sort of a non point because we can't just restart again with a new manager and then recycle the discussion.

This definitely isn't the elephant in the room it's literally discussed every 5 minutes in this forum.

[And Its Smith]

5 minutes ago, Jose said:

Do I think the points return is good enough? No!

Are there signs of possible improvement? No not really!

Do I trust the clowns at the top to find a decent replacement? Absolutely ******* not. 
 

We need to bare with him, back him and hope things improve. 

So the FA cup performances and the Southampton game aren’t signs of possible improvements ?

[SydneyCity]

1 hour ago, Gaseater said:

It’s an interesting idea that I actually disagree with. I would argue that under Cotts we played a far more simpler style of play - but just had very good tools in L1 that made it especially effective….it might be the case that the complexity is why we are struggling to grasp it and score more goals - I think it’s an interesting question. 

My take on this is that League 1 and lower have quite a few players who, for whatever reason, have dropped down well below their ability. If you can put together a team of these players, you have a team that can outplay others and bring success. Cotts did this, and Manning looked like he was was doing it.

In comparison, the Championship is ruthlessly contested; with almost every player and manager being evenly matched. It's not so much simple or complex for me in this league, it's having something different.

[Silvio Dante]

6 minutes ago, RedRoss said:

Summary of this topic.

We have a mid table squad yet because the ownership stupidly said we were a top 6 squad (almost everyone disagrees with this) to justify sacking Nigel. Now we're achieving mid table we keep getting Pearson/Manning who would have done better discussions.

We are bang average. I'm not sure either manager would squeeze much more out of the squad. If so marginally. Either way it's sort of a non point because we can't just restart again with a new manager and then recycle the discussion.

This definitely isn't the elephant in the room it's literally discussed every 5 minutes in this forum.

It’s really not a summary of the topic.

The discussion from most of us on here is nothing to do with top six squad, Pearson vs Manning etc. The discussion is around now we’ve seen half a season of Liam, how confident we are that he is the right man to enact a rebuild.

Summary of your post:

 

[Jose]

Just now, And Its Smith said:

So the FA cup performances and the Southampton game aren’t signs of possible improvements ?

They were good performances. We had that before? Following up with absolute dog shit, no not a good sign. 
 

LJ had some great performances in the cup. He took us backwards as a club and shown what an awful manager he is.  I prefer to focus on the league. 
 

For the record, like I said, he needs backing and let’s see what he can achieve. 

[ExiledAjax]

1 hour ago, RollsRoyce said:

This is an interesting point, as I think the discussion is narrowing down to one where we are asking, have we seen enough of Manning to entrust him with a summer, and a rebuild and taking the club forward.

I am still wanting to see the season out, but I have also seen enough to be concerned that we are repeating old errors, and are now risking being the training post for Manning. That is a potential concern, but I cannot take Manning in isolation. I will try to explain. 

It is clear to me, that yet again we were lied to by the owners, but it is also no shock. We have plenty of history there. What is more concerning, and is probably at the core of why we have not progressed, is that there is muddled thinking and even worse, little substantial change to how we operate to create any further forward momentum.

That we are even talking about a rebuild this summer is astonishing, as it means that Manning was  the wrong appointment. Not Manning as a person, but Manning as a footballing philosophy. The fit is wrong for both sides if we are talking about a rebuild. We needed to build on what we had. This is a very different challenge and will indicate yet again a club without direction. Would Brighton or Brentford be talking about a rebuild if they lost De Zerbi or Frank? Not a chance. Also, you can add Luton to those two. 

At the core of our issues is that we have not had a club identity or direction, for years, Nige was the first time we looked to create that (This is not a Nige argument BTW) and I think, from what I could hear and  see, many fans could also see that. So when you make a change, and it would have happened one day, what needed to happen was an evolution and continuation. That is the logic, that is what the previous mentioned clubs have done, for years. Yet we are not doing that are we?

This brings me to where I feel the core issue lies at BCFC, and it is with the direction and leadership. I do not believe we have sufficient quality at the club to drive the football direction or recruitment. It is a catastrophic failure of recruitment to have hired Manning (again not the person) who has a philosophy far removed from the direction the club was heading or recruited to. Equally, I would also be asking do I think the current club structure is able or capable of delivering a rebuild, and my answer to that is no. It is exacerbated by the concern we could not attract the people we need to take the club forward due to the paucity of leadership talent. 

I would be very concerned about Manning and Tinnion leading a rebuild in the summer. Neither has the depth of knowledge or experience to lead such a change. If indeed the club will allow Manning to rebuild, that is a forum concept created to explain his relative failure this season. 

But we cannot take Manning in isolation, it is the whole football operation that needs a review, because change Manning, and you end up with the same defects. If , and it is an if as I want to see this season out to see if he learns and adapts, I would like to see Manning replaced, I would also change Tinnion and the recruitment team at the same time, and raise the ability and quality of the whole football operation. 

Where has this concept of requiring a full rebuild come from? We don't need a full rebuild at all imo.

Right now we're looking at going into next season with a core squad that's of a good age, well balanced, and with the potential to challenge.

Does it need some additions? Will some players leave and require replacing? Of course, but that's true every summer for every club. It's far from a rebuild.

Now if those replacements take us slightly closer to the way in which Manning actually likes playing, that's ok. That's not a rebuild, that's not burning down everything that the previous manager built. That's evolution. That's (hopefully) progress.

I agree with an awful lot of your post, but I didn't realise people were expecting a "rebuild" in the summer!

[Cowshed]

51 minutes ago, spudski said:

Yes that's a given. 

Opposition coaches have said we play with a clear identity. The QPR coach spoke about it, and how he nullified it. 

Limitations are already to the fore in how he's trying to play in the final third. 

BCFC don't have a clear possession based identity. Limitations are very much to the fore in the first third, and second.

Its not clear who at this point will be the teams leaders and architects are who will uphold the teams possession system in the longer term. The team does not have high passing ability in key fundamental positions throughout the spine of the team. Average yes, high, good? Err one, two. 

Liam Manning won't establish a clear identity in 3/4 months. 

 

Edited February 21 by Cowshed

[Mr Popodopolous]

36 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

BCFC don't have a clear possession based identity. Limitations are very much to the fore in the first third, and second.

Its not clear who at this point will be the teams leaders and architects are who will uphold the teams possession system in the longer term. The team does not have high passing ability in key fundamental positions throughout the spine of the team. Average yes, high 

Liam Manning won't establish a clear identity in 3/4 months. 

 

Max Bird next year maybe..?

Fully fit Naismith and a retained Scott would've given us a bit of everything in midfield IMO. I know that is a very unlikely counterfactual but Naismith as the deepest with his range, Scott with his ability to pass, carry, win fouls in both halves and so forth. Knight doing what Knight does.

That could've been well balanced.

However Scott sold, Naismith injured most of the season. Dream on.

Edited February 21 by Mr Popodopolous

[One Team]

2 hours ago, The Journalist said:

There are two separate issues here - both important, but separate.

The poster is absolutely right to continually call the club out over both Manning’s appointment and early results. The club lied to the fanbase about the reasons for the managerial change, they exaggerated the quality of the squad to make Pearson look worse and then - purely in my opinion - made short-term moves in January, despite the season largely being over, purely motivated to drag us two or three places up the table to save face.

The whole thing had been handled abysmally and just because everything isn’t as raw as it was three or four months ago they should still be held to account for this. Fans and local media shouldn’t just let that go!

However… does that mean Manning is a bad manager and should be measured by the same standards? Absolutely not - the club may have put him under unnecessary pressure by some of the communication but he’s going to need some time, including this summer, and patience.

We rightly gave Pearson time and Manning should have time too, whatever the rights and wrongs behind how we arrived here.

What a really good, balanced post on the subject. 

Personally I’ve separated my distrust, anger and frustration with Lansdown from Manning although when he was appointed that was a challenge with the sacking raw at the time. 

He will get a lot of time, of that I am certain, but as I’ve said elsewhere it’s going to get very toxic if we lose many more games (it did on Saturday), at home especially, but suspect this wouldn’t necessarily be aimed at Manning. 

[Sir Geoff]

1 hour ago, Edgy Red said:

He wants a posession based team that presses high.

The modern game is dominated by teams that can retain controlled posession. That will mean passing around at the back and from side to side until spaces appear and we can play through the lines. I hear the moans and groans from fans already when we do it, but the alternative (which we frequently did under Nige) is to play 50 yard high balls to Conway and Wells and then watch it come straight back.

Manning needs time and a few of his own signings before he can be judged.

 

 

You obviously never watched many games under Pearson then. We did not play 50 yard balls up the middle to Conway and Wells.

[Bob Turnip]

15 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

But Manning was not brought in to rebuild and then maybe challenge in a few seasons time. He was brought in to challange with this squad. 

How do you know what remit Manning was given/accepted? Were you involved in the recruitment process?

Do you actually think JL said  "you have a top six squad there Liam - challenge for promotion this season or it's failure" and that Manning said "sure where do I sign".

You seem to be confusing the rubbish JL tried feeding to us, with actual private discussions held with our new manager.

 

Edited February 21 by Bob Turnip

[And Its Smith]

29 minutes ago, Jose said:

They were good performances. We had that before? Following up with absolute dog shit, no not a good sign. 
 

LJ had some great performances in the cup. He took us backwards as a club and shown what an awful manager he is.  I prefer to focus on the league. 
 

For the record, like I said, he needs backing and let’s see what he can achieve. 

Fine. I just don’t see how you can say there isn’t signs that it could improve. Whether you think it will or not is debatable

[Sir Geoff]

40 minutes ago, RedRoss said:

Summary of this topic.

We have a mid table squad yet because the ownership stupidly said we were a top 6 squad (almost everyone disagrees with this) to justify sacking Nigel. Now we're achieving mid table we keep getting Pearson/Manning who would have done better discussions.

We are bang average. I'm not sure either manager would squeeze much more out of the squad. If so marginally. Either way it's sort of a non point because we can't just restart again with a new manager and then recycle the discussion.

This definitely isn't the elephant in the room it's literally discussed every 5 minutes in this forum.

Maybe we wouldn't have had such a bang average season, if we had signed a Twine on loan or permanently last summer instead of January when the season was all but over.

[LondonBristolian]

Isn't an "elephant in the room" usually something people AREN'T talking about rather than a rehash of 3, 957 other threads?