Improving players

[Dredd]

Who is Manning actually getting the best out of since he's come in?
 

Mehmeti you could probably say is improved on the basis he was barely in the squad. As to if he's any better than under NP, in short bursts yet.

Joe Williams probably yes. 
 

That aside, Conway looks a shadow of his former self, whether that's tactics or something else we absolutely aren't playing to his strengths, Knight fits into that comment too. We've got wide players in Sykes and Bell who have played wingback more often than wide forward, TGH who ends up on the bench more often that not, and Tanner seems terrified every time he crosses the halfway line. 
 

This guys a coach right? So what's he managed to coach out of our players to improve them because at best as a team with stagnated, and individuals are going backwards. Personally I think he's lucky that Vyner and Dickie have had such good seasons and experienced players like James have been solid. 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

I like the fact Knight seems to have added some goals.

Albeit as for the squad as a whole, the negatives largely outweigh the positives to date.

[Dredd]

Knight has added some goals to be fair but I don't think the role he is in gets the best out of him. 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Dredd said:

Knight has added some goals to be fair but I don't think the role he is in gets the best out of him. 

No, I agree.

[Dr Balls]

5 hours ago, Dredd said:

Who is Manning actually getting the best out of since he's come in?
 

Mehmeti you could probably say is improved on the basis he was barely in the squad. As to if he's any better than under NP, in short bursts yet.

Joe Williams probably yes. 
 

That aside, Conway looks a shadow of his former self, whether that's tactics or something else we absolutely aren't playing to his strengths, Knight fits into that comment too. We've got wide players in Sykes and Bell who have played wingback more often than wide forward, TGH who ends up on the bench more often that not, and Tanner seems terrified every time he crosses the halfway line. 
 

This guys a coach right? So what's he managed to coach out of our players to improve them because at best as a team with stagnated, and individuals are going backwards. Personally I think he's lucky that Vyner and Dickie have had such good seasons and experienced players like James have been solid. 

 

And this is the bit where the recruitment of Manning doesn’t seem to fit with our player recruitment policy.

If we are bringing in young players with potential then having someone who can improve them as they mature and introducing them to the first team seems essential. Manning played a young team in his first season at MK Dons but they were mostly Premier League loanees, and when he was faced with coping without them and instead having young players that the club could afford, he failed and was sacked.

That doesn’t augur well for him or us within the framework laid out by the club.

Edited February 24 by Dr Balls

[luke_bristol]

Most concerning is that the periods where we’ve managed to get a bit of time to draw breath between games and do some coaching “on the grass” have coincided with our worst performances.

[REDOXO]

I was reading all about how you can see the improvement in players and tactics from so many recently. 
 

Utter nonsense.
 

Manning himself said players have to want to learn after the latest shit show today. Maybe they don’t want to learn from him, regardless of the pretend improvements I can’t see!
 

 

[Merrick's Marvels]

6 hours ago, Dredd said:

Who is Manning actually getting the best out of since he's come in?

 

More than the last bloke was?

Nobody.

And for context, a change was made because we want to be promoted this season

So individually, tactically, whicheverwally - it's a shitshow.

Jon Lansdown & Brian Tinnion? Stan Laurell & Oliver Hardy more like.

 

Edited February 24 by Merrick's Marvels

[Dr Balls]

37 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

More than the last bloke was?

Nobody.

And for context, a change was made because we want to be promoted this season

So individually, tactically, whicheverwally - it's a shitshow.

Jon Lansdown & Brian Tinnion? Stan Laurell & Oliver Hardy more like.

 

Oh I think that’s very unfair. Stan and Ollie were fantastic acting looking inept, whereas it’s not an act with JL and BT, they really are that clueless!

[Mendip City]

56 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

I was reading all about how you can see the improvement in players and tactics from so many recently. 
 

Utter nonsense.
 

Manning himself said players have to want to learn after the latest shit show today. Maybe they don’t want to learn from him, regardless of the pretend improvements I can’t see!
 

 

Agree with this. I don’t get the sense these players are bought into Manning’s way of doing things. That’s not to say they’re not working / trying but at times the body language doesn’t seem great and they don’t really seem quite so “teamy”. 
 

As for players who he’s improved…. Not sure I can see anyone. Williams is finally fit and playing for a contract/move. 
 

Bell and Conway going backwards. TGH also not looking the player he was. 
 

O’Leary always looks decent to me but has been outstanding recently. That’s not down to coaching, just the sheer amount of shot stopping practice he’s getting! 

[Merrick's Marvels]

30 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

Oh I think that’s very unfair. Stan and Ollie were fantastic acting looking inept, whereas it’s not an act with JL and BT, they really are that clueless!

[REDOXO]

30 minutes ago, Mendip City said:

Agree with this. I don’t get the sense these players are bought into Manning’s way of doing things. That’s not to say they’re not working / trying but at times the body language doesn’t seem great and they don’t really seem quite so “teamy”. 
 

As for players who he’s improved…. Not sure I can see anyone. Williams is finally fit and playing for a contract/move. 
 

Bell and Conway going backwards. TGH also not looking the player he was. 
 

O’Leary always looks decent to me but has been outstanding recently. That’s not down to coaching, just the sheer amount of shot stopping practice he’s getting! 

The way I see it!

[2015]

Conway imo has been terrible ever since the Rotherham game this season.

[bcfcnick]

41 minutes ago, 2015 said:

Conway imo has been terrible ever since the Rotherham game this season.

Yes, he has been poor. We know he has ability and is a natural goal scorer so it begs the question of whether his poor form is because he wants to move on or because tactically we aren't playing to his strengths.  Maybe a bit of both.  On his current form I don't think he'd get a Premiership move so that leaves Scotland.

[Gratz260689]

4 hours ago, bcfcnick said:

Yes, he has been poor. We know he has ability and is a natural goal scorer so it begs the question of whether his poor form is because he wants to move on or because tactically we aren't playing to his strengths.  Maybe a bit of both.  On his current form I don't think he'd get a Premiership move so that leaves Scotland.

Conway has to play with another striker it’s as simple as that! 

[W-S-M Seagull]

7 hours ago, REDOXO said:

I was reading all about how you can see the improvement in players and tactics from so many recently. 
 

Utter nonsense.
 

Manning himself said players have to want to learn after the latest shit show today. Maybe they don’t want to learn from him, regardless of the pretend improvements I can’t see!
 

 

Mate I've been reading stuff on here for months about how we now looked well coached, play sexy football, Mehmeti is much improved, it's more enjoyable watching us blah blah blah. 

Apart from a few flashes in the pan all those things are not true. 

It's been nothing but propaganda because of their loathing of the previous regime and a desperation to be right about the previous regime. 

 

Edited February 25 by W-S-M Seagull

[LondonBristolian]

5 hours ago, bcfcnick said:

Yes, he has been poor. We know he has ability and is a natural goal scorer so it begs the question of whether his poor form is because he wants to move on or because tactically we aren't playing to his strengths.  Maybe a bit of both.  On his current form I don't think he'd get a Premiership move so that leaves Scotland.

I think what is awkward with Conway is that either he, Manning or both have publicly stated Manning is trying to get him to play a different way.

That’s fine - and perhaps it will work in the long-term - but I think it really piles the pressure on Manning if he’s asking our star young player to play differently and his resulting performances are diminishing buht his value to sellers and to the team. 
 

I’m not (yet) at the “sack Manning” point - I recognise injuries have hindered him (albeit less so than they did Pearson) and that the squad isn’t quite as good as JL made it out to be - but I do agree with the OP that barely any players have improved over him and several seem to have regressed. There’s still just about enough time to claim he’s trying to change the way we play and it will take time but even that’s quite at odds from the stated intention of employing a manager to get the best out of the squad.

[1960maaan]

I'm not sure any single player is looking better now than pre Manning.
The defence were pretty sound before , Pring's form had dipped a little but was always going to return.
I thought Knight was brilliant when he first come in , but IMO he is only half the player he was playing deeper. Yes he's added goals, but he was much more involved before and still got into those positions. 
TGH has stuttered being in and out and Williams was looking good before LM arrived.
Mehmeti , well I side with Pearson. I don't see what he adds to the team , and I mean the team . If he gets lots of ball he ends up ignoring team mates in order to shoot , yesterday he gave a struggling Pring very little help and is all but usless when we press. But Manning clearly likes him.
Another favourite of Manning is the solo striker. It's not the position that's a problem as such , but any one from Lineker to Wright would struggle to score with no supply. The pairing with Wells showed how the pairs movement could pull defences around and make space , TC dropping and spinning was a major part of his game . Then Manning told him not to do that, to stay around the area , that is taking away a massive part of his game. Add we haven't worked out when we want the ball in the box after passing from side to side then he has no chance. 
There have been little flashes in games , when we are inevitably chasing and LM has thrown Wells on and kept TC on , where that link up has shown up . But he is determined on that one man up.
Sykes showed flashes of what he can bring yesterday, high and wide he looked a threat and got behind the FB, but Manning wants him as a WB , so he's not going to be as effective . Either that or he will be run into the ground .

Add the baffling loans , a player we can clearly not afford and a kid who hasn't played a full game in mens football , we looked like a rudderless ship. 
If Manning goes back and changes shape , again , I wonder how that will affect his standing with the players ?
It's a big moment for him and his time here. He needs to adapt , to make a system fit the players not the other way around. He has to change his mind about favourites, both players and positions . 
If we haven't got a striker to play a lone role, change it slightly. If there is a doubt about lasting 90 minutes , wait a game. Having Sykes on the bench Vs QPR meant when Bell came off the only option was Cornick. As busy and hard working as he is he wasn't a straight replacement and we lost that threat down the left. 

I have held off criticising Manning until he's had a reasonable time here, it is getting hard not to get angry with what we are watching ATM.  You know that against Cardiff they will have seen where we struggle and will do their version of it. So the question is how do we adapt to cause them problems. You know that will mean the same players (rotated) in the same sort of shape and system , but having "worked on patterns" . 

He looked broken in that interview , it's gave me John Ward "I don't know what to do next" vibes . 

We know what happened then ....... what's Benny doing now ?

[Davefevs]

Some excellent points Mike

[RedM]

I'm probably going to get battered for this...but I think on the whole Max has looked a lot more confident since Manning.

Yes he has some errors in him, he's a keeper and mistakes really show, but his shot stopping and confidence has much improved, the reaction stuff.  It seems when he has time to think he isn't at his best. 

[TDarwall]

I actually feel a bit sorry for Mehmeti.  Came here with a really good reputation & it (so far) hasn't worked out.  Hopefully he's not Smozdic v2.

Personally I don't think he's been as bad (overall) as some make out, but clearly he has been underwhelming.

Thing is, look at the team yesterday, you basically have a keeper, 9 strong runners & Mehmeti.  Other than him, who is going to beat someone & create something (feel free to insert your own punchline that he doesn't do that either).  We're incredibly predictable to play against so I can understand persisting with him because at least there is the chance he may do something different (think he may have had our only shots on target v Leeds & QPR.

How's this for a sliding doors moment - I think Anis & Harry C made their debuts in the same game, Cornick is thru wide right, if he squares it to Anis, HC gets an assist om debut, Anis gets a goal, the fans are happy & both players get a lift.  Obvs what happened was Harry went for goal & it was a routine save.

[Sheltons Army]

15 minutes ago, RedM said:

I'm probably going to get battered for this...but I think on the whole Max has looked a lot more confident since Manning.

Yes he has some errors in him, he's a keeper and mistakes really show, but his shot stopping and confidence has much improved, the reaction stuff.  It seems when he has time to think he isn't at his best. 

Pat Mountain ? (Credit that we are doing ok notching from set pieces too)
And confidence by the moving on of Dan Bentley and being the clear No 1 , I would think too M

 

[cellist]

10 minutes ago, TDarwall said:

I actually feel a bit sorry for Mehmeti.  Came here with a really good reputation & it (so far) hasn't worked out.  Hopefully he's not Smozdic v2.

Personally I don't think he's been as bad (overall) as some make out, but clearly he has been underwhelming.

Thing is, look at the team yesterday, you basically have a keeper, 9 strong runners & Mehmeti.  Other than him, who is going to beat someone & create something (feel free to insert your own punchline that he doesn't do that either).  We're incredibly predictable to play against so I can understand persisting with him because at least there is the chance he may do something different (think he may have had our only shots on target v Leeds & QPR.

How's this for a sliding doors moment - I think Anis & Harry C made their debuts in the same game, Cornick is thru wide right, if he squares it to Anis, HC gets an assist om debut, Anis gets a goal, the fans are happy & both players get a lift.  Obvs what happened was Harry went for goal & it was a routine save.

Mehmeti has had way more game time than sammie ever did. Not sure thats the right comparison because nobody can say he hasn't been given a fair crack of the whip.

Like you say some of the scapegoating a bit harsh, an easy target for a general sense of frustration. Hope it comes good for him. And if we are going to play the way we are trying to, you're right that you need some kind of unpredictable outlet on the pitch (the fact that at the moment he fairly predictably gives the ball away notwithstanding!)

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 minute ago, Sheltons Army said:

Pat Mountain ? (Credit that we are doing ok notching from set pieces too)
And confidence by the moving on of Dan Bentley and being the clear No 1 , I would think too M

 

So basically our only improvements have been down to PM. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 minute ago, cellist said:

Mehmeti has had way more game time than sammie ever did. Not sure thats the right comparison because nobody can say he hasn't been given a fair crack of the whip.

Like you say some of the scapegoating a bit harsh, an easy target for a general sense of frustration. Hope it comes good for him. And if we are going to play the way we are trying to, you're right that you need some kind of unpredictable outlet on the pitch (the fact that at the moment he fairly predictably gives the ball away notwithstanding!)

I don't think it's harsh to ask if Anis was even playing yesterday. 

We all hope it comes good for him. But I think a loan move away may do him well. 

Unfortunately under Manning no players are ever going to be allowed to play with unpredictability. That's not how Manning operates. It's all structured. He's coached any unpredictability out of them. 

[1960maaan]

9 minutes ago, TDarwall said:

I actually feel a bit sorry for Mehmeti.  Came here with a really good reputation & it (so far) hasn't worked out.  Hopefully he's not Smozdic v2.

Personally I don't think he's been as bad (overall) as some make out, but clearly he has been underwhelming.

Thing is, look at the team yesterday, you basically have a keeper, 9 strong runners & Mehmeti.  Other than him, who is going to beat someone & create something (feel free to insert your own punchline that he doesn't do that either).  We're incredibly predictable to play against so I can understand persisting with him because at least there is the chance he may do something different (think he may have had our only shots on target v Leeds & QPR.

How's this for a sliding doors moment - I think Anis & Harry C made their debuts in the same game, Cornick is thru wide right, if he squares it to Anis, HC gets an assist om debut, Anis gets a goal, the fans are happy & both players get a lift.  Obvs what happened was Harry went for goal & it was a routine save.

I will say I think he could be useful , but in a wide position he offers little protection for his FB/WB , he doesn't go outside the FB and always cuts in and with options of passes, he seems to always either shoot or lose the ball dribbling . The best fit I've seen him is against Cardiff. In a team massively hit by injuries he played '10' with TGH & Knight in MF. That looked like the future to me . 
Given that Sykes played LB, Pring CB and an academy CB at RB it's no surprise we lost, but I came away with real optimism about the MF & Mehmeti . It didn't last. My main problem is Manning is watching him produce very little , but sticks by him at the expense of the "team". 
He wouldn't have been the only player Nige dropped until he did things as Pearson wanted . At the moment he seems like first name on the sheet, but for no real football reason.

[TDarwall]

It is odd that post Cardiff, he's never really been given that role again.

[Dr Balls]

3 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I don't think it's harsh to ask if Anis was even playing yesterday. 

We all hope it comes good for him. But I think a loan move away may do him well. 

Unfortunately under Manning no players are ever going to be allowed to play with unpredictability. That's not how Manning operates. It's all structured. He's coached any unpredictability out of them. 

This comes back to why we looked good against Southampton. The players played on instinct rather than the sterile way they had been “coached”. And when we go back to the “Manning way”, it’s dull, predictable and the opposition quickly suss out that we aren’t really good enough to play that way at this level. 

It takes a big person to accept that their approach is wrong or isn’t working. Is Liam able to do that? Really not sure but from what he says I have my doubts.

[W-S-M Seagull]

6 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

This comes back to why we looked good against Southampton. The players played on instinct rather than the sterile way they had been “coached”. And when we go back to the “Manning way”, it’s dull, predictable and the opposition quickly suss out that we aren’t really good enough to play that way at this level. 

It takes a big person to accept that their approach is wrong or isn’t working. Is Liam able to do that? Really not sure but from what he says I have my doubts.

Yep same with the West Ham and Forest games. In fact I think looking back now we can be a bit disappointed with not beating Forest in either of the games. Especially in the replay that Manning considered a free hit and was happy to rest/rotate players. 

I remember watching the Blackburn Away game. We were absolutely pants and then it seemed the players thought f Manning ball we're playing how we want to and then we nearly ended up getting something out of the game. 

I think by and large, most of our victories under Manning have come from not playing Manning ball? 

I don't know. I think at times he can adapt but then he has a really annoying habit of then reverting back to his way. 

I said in another post yesterday that when he came in he overloaded the players with information. He then recognised he got that wrong so adjusted that. Now he's gone back to too much information. Fight or flight I guess so reverts to what he knows and that's from a textbook. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

26 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

I will say I think he could be useful , but in a wide position he offers little protection for his FB/WB , he doesn't go outside the FB and always cuts in and with options of passes, he seems to always either shoot or lose the ball dribbling . The best fit I've seen him is against Cardiff. In a team massively hit by injuries he played '10' with TGH & Knight in MF. That looked like the future to me . 
Given that Sykes played LB, Pring CB and an academy CB at RB it's no surprise we lost, but I came away with real optimism about the MF & Mehmeti . It didn't last. My main problem is Manning is watching him produce very little , but sticks by him at the expense of the "team". 
He wouldn't have been the only player Nige dropped until he did things as Pearson wanted . At the moment he seems like first name on the sheet, but for no real football reason.

I think Anis gives us a glimpse into the future under Manning. 

He's not a Manning signing but considering he was out of favour and that Manning went public that he wanted to sign him at Oxford, he can almost be considered a Manning signing. 

It comes across as he is desperate to prove that he was right about Anis. 

Naismith was quite vocal about Anis yesterday. That's worrying that his peers are having the same concerns as us fans. Does that then lead on to players themselves questioning the managers selections?