Improving players

[italian dave]

I’m probably going to get battered even more so than @RedM for this, but for me this thread pretty much sums up the negativity and the determination to find fault with anything Manning that’s so prevalent on here at the moment.

There are ups and downs, pros and cons, black and white and various shades of grey in any club and any season and especially when managers change.

Yet reading through the posts so far what stands out is the determination to attribute every single negative to Manning and every single positive to something or someone else.

Thats not being critical of your question, @Dredd. It’s a reasonable one. It’s more about what follows.

And, as a slight aside but another example of the negativity, @Merrick's Marvels - apart from the generic aspiration that any club in the Championship would have promotion as an ambition, who has ever said that promotion this season is or was our objective?? 

[luke_bristol]

8 minutes ago, italian dave said:

I’m probably going to get battered even more so than @RedM for this, but for me this thread pretty much sums up the negativity and the determination to find fault with anything Manning that’s so prevalent on here at the moment.

There are ups and downs, pros and cons, black and white and various shades of grey in any club and any season and especially when managers change.

Yet reading through the posts so far what stands out is the determination to attribute every single negative to Manning and every single positive to something or someone else.

Thats not being critical of your question, @Dredd. It’s a reasonable one. It’s more about what follows.

And, as a slight aside but another example of the negativity, @Merrick's Marvels - apart from the generic aspiration that any club in the Championship would have promotion as an ambition, who has ever said that promotion this season is or was our objective?? 

Eh?! It’s what Gavin Marshall said in his ITV interview after NP was sacked!

 

 

 

Edited February 25 by luke_bristol

[1960maaan]

17 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I think Anis gives us a glimpse into the future under Manning. 

He's not a Manning signing but considering he was out of favour and that Manning went public that he wanted to sign him at Oxford, he can almost be considered a Manning signing. 

It comes across as he is desperate to prove that he was right about Anis. 

Naismith was quite vocal about Anis yesterday. That's worrying that his peers are having the same concerns as us fans. Does that then lead on to players themselves questioning the managers selections? 

You always get players frustrated , always thinking they are in a better position and should have been passed to. It just seems it's more often Mehmeti gets the raised eyebrows. How many runs do you make before you think "he's not going to pass , so what's the point"? That's when movement can stop.  
I thought there were signs he had got the message, but recently he has reverted to type.  I said it yesterday , with Conway sprinting to close the keeper and leave just one pass on, Mehmeti strolls over and lets them play out. If you are struggling for chances like TC , but chasing everything it must be soul destroying seeing a team mate almost going through the motions.  I think it stands out in this team, one thing Pearson ingrained was work ethic and Manning has praised their fitness and work rate. If he was a Saha or Eze or closer to home Jackie, then I think I'd be happy to see others do the donkey work for him. He hasn't had nearly the impact to think that so at times he just looks like a passenger. 

[Alessandro]

11 minutes ago, italian dave said:

I’m probably going to get battered even more so than @RedM for this, but for me this thread pretty much sums up the negativity and the determination to find fault with anything Manning that’s so prevalent on here at the moment.

There are ups and downs, pros and cons, black and white and various shades of grey in any club and any season and especially when managers change.

Yet reading through the posts so far what stands out is the determination to attribute every single negative to Manning and every single positive to something or someone else.

Thats not being critical of your question, @Dredd. It’s a reasonable one. It’s more about what follows.

And, as a slight aside but another example of the negativity, @Merrick's Marvels - apart from the generic aspiration that any club in the Championship would have promotion as an ambition, who has ever said that promotion this season is or was our objective?? 

“We all wanted Nigel to achieve our ambition to be promoted but, with our recent results, feel that now is the time to make a change to give the club the best possible chance of success.” - JL

‘We want to get promoted this year' - Bristol City board on decision to sack Nigel Pearson - from Gavin Marshall

[Cityboy1954]

16 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I like the fact Knight seems to have added some goals.

Albeit as for the squad as a whole, the negatives largely outweigh the positives to date.

Hes the one bright spark wouldnt be surprised to see someone come in forhim in the summer.

[1960maaan]

11 minutes ago, italian dave said:

I’m probably going to get battered even more so than @RedM for this, but for me this thread pretty much sums up the negativity and the determination to find fault with anything Manning that’s so prevalent on here at the moment.

There are ups and downs, pros and cons, black and white and various shades of grey in any club and any season and especially when managers change.

Yet reading through the posts so far what stands out is the determination to attribute every single negative to Manning and every single positive to something or someone else.

Thats not being critical of your question, @Dredd. It’s a reasonable one. It’s more about what follows.

And, as a slight aside but another example of the negativity, @Merrick's Marvels - apart from the generic aspiration that any club in the Championship would have promotion as an ambition, who has ever said that promotion this season is or was our objective?? 

I have waited until now and only after 2 horror shows to start to criticise Manning, and approaching 3 months in charge I think it's a reasonable amount of time to have a look where we are.
The moaning is worse , and would have been similar under any Coach , after 2 pathetic showings against 2 of the poorer sides in the division.

I really think the excuses for getting rid of Pearson, and I use that word excuses deliberately as I think that's what they were, have put undue pressure on Manning. Even though it annoys me now when it is trotted out as a stick to beat the Club/Coach/Chairman/Owner with, they did say we had a top 6 squad and LM was brought in to get the most out of it. So far that is clearly not happening. 

The timing was clearly to take advantage of players getting fit. It hasn't panned out that way and now playing clearly unfit players seems like panic . That is not a good look for a Coach. 

[Cowshed]

40 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Yep same with the West Ham and Forest games. In fact I think looking back now we can be a bit disappointed with not beating Forest in either of the games. Especially in the replay that Manning considered a free hit and was happy to rest/rotate players. 

I remember watching the Blackburn Away game. We were absolutely pants and then it seemed the players thought f Manning ball we're playing how we want to and then we nearly ended up getting something out of the game. 

I think by and large, most of our victories under Manning have come from not playing Manning ball? 

I don't know. I think at times he can adapt but then he has a really annoying habit of then reverting back to his way. 

I said in another post yesterday that when he came in he overloaded the players with information. He then recognised he got that wrong so adjusted that. Now he's gone back to too much information. Fight or flight I guess so reverts to what he knows and that's from a textbook. 

You post a lot. Could you highlight what Manning ball is? 

Your last paragraph barely makes any sense. The sympathetic nervous system does not make an individual revert to a text book.  

[Davefevs]

21 minutes ago, italian dave said:

who has ever said that promotion this season is or was our objective?? 

Italian namesake.  I must’ve posted half a dozen times this week alone that both Gavin Marshall and Jon Lansdown said it.

I haven’t waded in on the who’s done better / who’s done worse, because it’s far too subjective.  Most players have had highs and lows.

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Your last paragraph barely makes any sense. The sympathetic nervous system does not make an individual revert to a text book.  

I think he’s just using it as an analogy for you can read a text book, but until you try to put it into practice it’s a bit of an unknown.  And when the scenario yoyre asked to act upon isn’t in the textbook, can you take your learnings and internet the situation and choose the right answer.

I think you’re taking it a bit literally.

[Shauntaylor85]

17 hours ago, Dredd said:

Who is Manning actually getting the best out of since he's come in?
 

Mehmeti you could probably say is improved on the basis he was barely in the squad. As to if he's any better than under NP, in short bursts yet.

Joe Williams probably yes. 
 

That aside, Conway looks a shadow of his former self, whether that's tactics or something else we absolutely aren't playing to his strengths, Knight fits into that comment too. We've got wide players in Sykes and Bell who have played wingback more often than wide forward, TGH who ends up on the bench more often that not, and Tanner seems terrified every time he crosses the halfway line. 
 

This guys a coach right? So what's he managed to coach out of our players to improve them because at best as a team with stagnated, and individuals are going backwards. Personally I think he's lucky that Vyner and Dickie have had such good seasons and experienced players like James have been solid. 

 

Players have regressed, Tommy especially. The number two coach (can’t remember his name, played an average level in Scotland) anyway he looks a rabbit in headlights whenever you see video’s. Think Manning needs more experience around him. 

[RedM]

10 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

I have waited until now and only after 2 horror shows to start to criticise Manning, and approaching 3 months in charge I think it's a reasonable amount of time to have a look where we are.
The moaning is worse , and would have been similar under any Coach , after 2 pathetic showings against 2 of the poorer sides in the division.

I really think the excuses for getting rid of Pearson, and I use that word excuses deliberately as I think that's what they were, have put undue pressure on Manning. Even though it annoys me now when it is trotted out as a stick to beat the Club/Coach/Chairman/Owner with, they did say we had a top 6 squad and LM was brought in to get the most out of it. So far that is clearly not happening. 

The timing was clearly to take advantage of players getting fit. It hasn't panned out that way and now playing clearly unfit players seems like panic . That is not a good look for a Coach. 

I think if Pearson had stepped down, sited ill health and the whole thing was handled totally differently, and then Manning was appointed fans would be feeling a bit different.

It's not Manning's fault those above him put such pressure and expectation on him. We may still be going through the same results, who knows, but the feeling wouldn't be so toxic towards the wrong person as it is now? But that said, playing unfit players is pretty inexcusable.

[Snufflelufagus]

1 hour ago, RedM said:

I'm probably going to get battered for this...but I think on the whole Max has looked a lot more confident since Manning.

Yes he has some errors in him, he's a keeper and mistakes really show, but his shot stopping and confidence has much improved, the reaction stuff.  It seems when he has time to think he isn't at his best. 

I would argue Max is not coached by Manning, more so the goalkeeper coach.

[italian dave]

3 minutes ago, Snufflelufagus said:

I would argue Max is not coached by Manning, more so the goalkeeper coach.

And don’t we have defensive coaches, set piece coaches, midfield coaches, and so on.

By that logic Manning isn’t responsible for anything or anyone, and the whole premise of this thread is irrelevant. (Which I don’t think it is). 

[italian dave]

@luke_bristol @Alessandro @1960maaan @Davefevs . See, I was right about the first bit, if nothing else!

Yes, Marshall said that. I’ve always acknowledged that and should have been clearer. But he’s not a football man, and it’s JL and BT who run the football side and who are the two who get constantly slated on here (rightly so in some instances) - and neither of them said that. I stand to be corrected @Davefevs but I’m not aware of JL having ever said promotion this season.

And, bigger picture, we all know that the real reasons for what happened weren’t just footballing ones and the quicker we all stop pretending that they were the better. 

[Cowshed]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

I think he’s just using it as an analogy for you can read a text book,

People in fight flight are generally not reading anything Dave. The parasympathetic nervous system post fight/flight might help you read a text book.

 

14 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 And when the scenario yoyre asked to act upon isn’t in the textbook, can you take your learnings and internet the situation and choose the right answer.

 

Nope. Struggling with that one as well. 

[Cowshed]

17 minutes ago, Snufflelufagus said:

I would argue Max is not coached by Manning, more so the goalkeeper coach.

I would not argue that Liam Manning instructs what he wants the goal keeper coach to focus on with the keepers, I would not argue that Liam Manning also conducts meetings with goal keepers, and units, and the team, and why focus has been placed on starting positions and interventions. 

 

[Davefevs]

20 minutes ago, RedM said:

I think if Pearson had stepped down, sited ill health and the whole thing was handled totally differently, and then Manning was appointed fans would be feeling a bit different.

It's not Manning's fault those above him put such pressure and expectation on him. We may still be going through the same results, who knows, but the feeling wouldn't be so toxic towards the wrong person as it is now? But that said, playing unfit players is pretty inexcusable.

If Nige had stepped down through ill-health, they’d have gone forward with Fleming or Euell or a set-up that Nige helped recommend.  I doubt Manning would’ve been a contender.

You're right it’s not LM’s fault, although you could argue like @Silvio Dante that he chose to come here.

7 minutes ago, italian dave said:

@luke_bristol @Alessandro @1960maaan @Davefevs . See, I was right about the first bit, if nothing else!

Yes, Marshall said that. I’ve always acknowledged that and should have been clearer. But he’s not a football man, and it’s JL and BT who run the football side and who are the two who get constantly slated on here (rightly so in some instances) - and neither of them said that. I stand to be corrected @Davefevs but I’m not aware of JL having ever said promotion this season.

And, bigger picture, we all know that the real reasons for what happened weren’t just footballing ones and the quicker we all stop pretending that they were the better. 

Joe Sims BBCRB interview with Jon.

“Loose Lips” Tins (), is the only one who stuck to the Faulty Towers script - whatever you do don’t me promotion or top 6

JL - I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it

[Davefevs]

15 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

People in fight flight are generally not reading anything Dave. The parasympathetic nervous system post fight/flight might help you read a text book.

 

Nope. Struggling with that one as well. 

It’s not difficult CS.  If you’ve learned stuff in a set way, if they do this, we do that, if we do this, they’ll do that…and either you or the other team go off-piste, have you got the skills to think on your feet.  What are you falling back on to form your solution.

That's what WSM is trying to say.

I’m not saying LM is or isn’t, just explaining LM’s analogy.

Edited February 25 by Davefevs

[Dr Balls]

7 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

People in fight flight are generally not reading anything Dave. The parasympathetic nervous system post fight/flight might help you read a text book.

 

Nope. Struggling with that one as well. 

Curse of the autocorrect @Davefevs

I think we all might be a lot happier if Manning had someone more senior than him, who he and we could trust to advise him as Director of Football rather than Tinnion, who is short-lived failed League 1 manager at the same club, nearly 20 years ago.

The story that comes to mind is actually about the Gas. A long time back they had a young Paul Trollope as Head Coach and a very experienced Lennie Lawrence as Director of Football. A lot of their fans questioned what Lawrence added, and presumably so did the board as they let him go as a cost-cutting exercise. It was subsequently quite clear what he added, which was experience with which to guide Trollope. The results tanked, Trollope was sacked, relegation followed, and ultimately a season or 2 later they were relegated out of the Football League.

The moral of this story is that experience and wisdom are undervalued in our current society and football it would seem is no different!

[italian dave]

7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

If Nige had stepped down through ill-health, they’d have gone forward with Fleming or Euell or a set-up that Nige helped recommend.  I doubt Manning would’ve been a contender.

You're right it’s not LM’s fault, although you could argue like @Silvio Dante that he chose to come here.

Joe Sims BBCRB interview with Jon.

“Loose Lips” Tins (), is the only one who stuck to the Faulty Towers script - whatever you do don’t me promotion or top 6

JL - I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it

. But I’d still maintain neither said ‘this season’.

The real point though is surely that it was a Fawlty Towers script. We’d all agree on that. And I just think that the quicker we all move on from that, and stop playing to that Fawlty Towers script, the better. 

[IAmNick]

To answer the question, Williams. I think on the whole he's looked a lot better since Manning was here and I've been pretty impressed with him.

Whether that's Manning, contract stuff, or what I don't know!

Also, I don't think this is a since Manning improvement but I realised yesterday Knight is now on 7 goals and 4 assists for the season. What a brilliant return - we'd be looking enviously at those numbers from a "midfielder" elsewhere, especially when you take into account the rest of his game. Such a tidy player.

[Davefevs]

12 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

Curse of the autocorrect @Davefevs

I think we all might be a lot happier if Manning had someone more senior than him, who he and we could trust to advise him as Director of Football rather than Tinnion, who is short-lived failed League 1 manager at the same club, nearly 20 years ago.

The story that comes to mind is actually about the Gas. A long time back they had a young Paul Trollope as Head Coach and a very experienced Lennie Lawrence as Director of Football. A lot of their fans questioned what Lawrence added, and presumably so did the board as they let him go as a cost-cutting exercise. It was subsequently quite clear what he added, which was experience with which to guide Trollope. The results tanked, Trollope was sacked, relegation followed, and ultimately a season or 2 later they were relegated out of the Football League.

The moral of this story is that experience and wisdom are undervalued in our current society and football it would seem is no different!

You’ll know that Trollope / Lawrence is an example I often trot out too.

6 minutes ago, italian dave said:

. But I’d still maintain neither said ‘this season’.

The real point though is surely that it was a Fawlty Towers script. We’d all agree on that. And I just think that the quicker we all move on from that, and stop playing to that Fawlty Towers script, the better. 

“We could’ve just bumbled along this season, but what’s the point in that….”

[Spike]

17 hours ago, Dredd said:

Who is Manning actually getting the best out of since he's come in?
 

Mehmeti you could probably say is improved on the basis he was barely in the squad. As to if he's any better than under NP, in short bursts yet.

Joe Williams probably yes. 
 

That aside, Conway looks a shadow of his former self, whether that's tactics or something else we absolutely aren't playing to his strengths, Knight fits into that comment too. We've got wide players in Sykes and Bell who have played wingback more often than wide forward, TGH who ends up on the bench more often that not, and Tanner seems terrified every time he crosses the halfway line. 
 

This guys a coach right? So what's he managed to coach out of our players to improve them because at best as a team with stagnated, and individuals are going backwards. Personally I think he's lucky that Vyner and Dickie have had such good seasons and experienced players like James have been solid. 

 

This is what frustrated me yesterday, Liam has been brought in to coach the team, to improve how we play both individually and as a team but in my eyes he is failing in both areas.

Vyner & Dickie - The one thing NP identified and rectified before being released was that no matter how he shaped the back 3 Vyner is not comfortable in a back 3 and lacks the positional awareness to cope with it so he switched to a back 4 where we saw Vyner really start to shine, so much so that he secured a new contract when many thought he was going to leave. Vyner is a great player in a traditional back 4 where the full-backs sit back and when they do push up a midfielder comes across to cover but in a back 3 where the opposition can counter he is often positioned poorly on the transition and indecisive on when to go to the ball and when to drop off, in turn it forces Dickie to move about more than he should at which point he gets caught out too. Simply put we struggle to deal with a good punchy counter off of the transition when using a back 3 and this is something that Manning doesn't seem willing to accept as he continues to try and use the back 3 with two wing backs system. What concerns me is that when Manning came in this is the kind of information the club should be giving him so he should be aware of it before he even begins to implement his style of coaching. If we was not made aware of this then instantly the club are off to a poor start as with any new manager/coach coming in there should be information handed on for the new man to evaluate and make his own mind up about but at the very least be made aware of. 
At this point Manning has had more than enough time to identify this issue but continues to try and have us play a 3 at the back whether it changes based on play or sticks to a flat three regardless. For me this is a major part of why we struggle with teams who sit back against us as they get numbers behind the ball, soak up the pressure and when we make a poor pass they get it out wide quickly and then pump the ball into the off middles area where this positioning in the transition catches us off guard and either Vyner is out of position forcing Dickie to move to cover or both men seem confused on who is going to attack the ball and who is going to keep dropping back. This issue doesn't come about nearly as much when we use a traditional back 4 because the initial transition is usually slowed down at the wide point to slow down the counter and prevent a quick movement up the pitch. With the wing backs we lose this and with the weaknesses with the back line in a three we become exposed.

Sam Bell - Looks like he's lost his edge to many when in fact I think the real issue comes down to what is being asked of him in this new system. Bell is very much a counter attacking player, he likes to get the ball and run at players who are trying to get their shape back but with the new possession-based football we rarely find ourselves in a situation where Bell is in possession and the opposition is tracking back, instead Bell is given the ball in a static position out wide with no space to get moving so he is forced to try and beat his man with pace over and over. When he pushes wide to do this and tries to cross but is blocked he rarely has a good inside option or any player making a run for him so he ultimately has to play it back to the defence in order to move the ball across the pitch as Manning loves to have us do. The goal of switching the play is to move the ball across the pitch as quickly and effectively as possible which in turn will create openings with the opposition, only this doesn't work that often at this level as any decent Championship team knows to transition their shape with the movement of the ball and we can't switch the ball quickly enough as Manning confirmed against QPR when we looked toothless.
Ultimately Manning has created a tactic in which Bell would only fit being one of a front two partnership as his finishing is good and if given the freedom he does like to get into the box and cause issues but again, this is not how Manning is setting us up. I do not see Bell doing well in this team unless Manning starts to implement a mixed approach where we not only play the possession and movement style of football but can also sit back and allow pressure onto us and use Bell as an outlet to move us up the pitch effectively on the counter.

Wells & Cornick - Another two players who are very capable in the right position and being used to their strengths but neither are being used that way. Cornick has a lot of qualities but under Pearson and Manning we've barely got to see them as much like Wells he's best suited in a front two partnership but due to nature of how Manning sets up and our lack of a pocket playing midfielder we never get to see them in their best roles. Ideally I think the best formation for us currently would be a 4-1-2-1-2 where the 1 behind the front two players would move across the pitch with the ball making wide runs or taking passes in the pocket to allow the front two space to move and create openings. The 1 in-front of the defence would also do something similar in that they would move across slightly when the full backs go for overlaps allowing him to drop in that space to reassure the back 4 and the 2 in the middle would adjust accordingly to these players movements to ensure there are passing options but also passing lanes covered.
That suggestion aside I do think that Mannings issue is that he wants to create a playstyle/tactic and stick to it regardless and his interviews when he mentions not moving the ball across the pitch quickly enough just confirms that in my personal opinion as rather than seeing that something isn't working and adapting the tactics to counter it he blames the players for not doing it well enough. The truth of the matter is if the opposition move their shape well enough then moving the ball side to side is never going to result in creating openings without a stroke of luck.

Mehmeti - Mehmeti is driving me up the wall, the bloke has the ability, he has the skill but he is sorely let down by his decision making and what frustrates me further is that Manning wanted Mehmeti before we bought him so he is essentially a "Manning player" in my eyes. What I don't understand is if Liam saw the ability and skill and wanted to sign him then surely he thinks he's capable of coaching him where his issues are and that's his final decision. I've lost count of how many times he's created something from nothing only to then make the wrong pass and undo all of his hard work. I also feel that with the coaching you'd see a whole different player if you had that pocket player to play the give and go passes with when he cuts inside but we don't have anyone playing that roles so when he comes inside he just aims to make enough space to take a shot and on the occasions where he doesn't think he has it he passes backwards and goes back to his wide role because he has no give and go option. 
This for me, again, comes down to coaching and tactics.

At this point I could write so much more but I am genuinely frustrated just thinking about it.

One thing I have been seeing a lot of on twitter is people saying what I was saying a few weeks back, that given a pre-season Manning could turn this around but in all honesty I think his interview killed that for me and I'm now very much expecting a repetitive circle of odd results followed by interviews about how the players played well this week when they win and how they just didn't do enough when they lose. Yesterday I was angry for the first time with Manning because that result was not on the players, he set up a formation and a tactic to play against a team who were obviously going to set up to counter what Manning has been putting out. Essentially Manning was predictable and his tactics were already scouted out by Wednesday and they outperformed us because they had the right set up and the right gameplan whilst we continued to try and push a tactic they were set up to play against.
Manning said that the performance was not good enough, the truth is we played right into Wednesdays hands and having done the same against QPR any manager who sees those results and watches those games in preparation to play against us will know exactly how to beat us, sit back, transition the shape with our passes across the back line, make small bursting runs at passing lanes until we inevitably make a poor passing decision and then hit us with a 1-2 movement outside and into the middle whilst our back line is on the backfoot as that's when Vyner misreads a pass or Dickie comes across to help because our line is out of shape. 

I personally hope a lot of teams see that we've lost to QPR and Wednesday and think we'll be a walk over and try to outplay us because that's the only way Mannings tactics are going to catch teams off guard e.g. Southampton, West Ham etc

[W-S-M Seagull]

10 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

You’ll know that Trollope / Lawrence is an example I often trot out too.

“We could’ve just bumbled along this season, but what’s the point in that….”

Bumbling along actually seems quite exciting compared to losing to two relegation candidates on the bounce. 

[bexhill reds]

7 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

People in fight flight are generally not reading anything Dave. The parasympathetic nervous system post fight/flight might help you read a text book.

 

Nope. Struggling with that one as well. 

I think the point being alluded to is that the belief is that Manning is one of these new “textbook” coaches where everything is based on theory rather than experience, magnets on the whiteboard as it were.

A lot of this comes from coaches like Pep being put on a plinth as a new football management god without the acceptance that he’s made to look world beating because money is no object when acquiring players. With no disrespect to Rotherham, would a Pep type coach be able to go in and get them promoted with a very limited budget.

Having learnt some of of his trade in the City group of clubs, it’s clear that he is a disciple of that type of coaching, brilliant if you’ve got academies full of the brightest and best, but not with an inherited squad of arguably 3 managers worth of signings. 

I’m not sure that academy coaches necessarily are tactically astute enough to immediately make the transition to management, especially in the Championship, that is not to say they won’t, but they’ve got to learn their trade lower down. Managers like Johnson (Snr), Cotterell, and Pearson all did the dirty work before they came to use and were adept to various levels of success in getting a team out of a collection of odds and sods. I don’t think Manning has this ability, that’s not to say he won’t, but I’m not sure that the Championship is the best place to learn it.

 

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

It’s not difficult CS.  If you’ve learned stuff in a set way, if they do this, we do that, if we do this, they’ll do that…and either you or the other team go off-piste, have you got the skills to think on your feet.  What are you falling back on to form your solution.

That's what WSM is trying to say.

 I’m not saying LM is or isn’t, just explaining LM’s analogy.

 

The poster made a points about overloading players with information, flight or flight, got that wrong, I guess ... Yes it was very difficult to understand, It is all over the place. 

There was a sweeping assumption that Liam Manning has learned everything from the text book, the manual like there is one book guiding all learning. The coaching badges Liam Manning gained are not achieved in that manner. 

Aspects of badges focus very much on have you got skills, your solutions and being able to demonstrate this - Its the individual displaying their knowledge and expertise not the answers from a text book. There are coaching modules covering psychology, communication and learning styles and neurology.  

1 hour ago, Dr Balls said:

Curse of the autocorrect @Davefevs

I think we all might be a lot happier if Manning had someone more senior than him, who he and we could trust to advise him as Director of Football rather than Tinnion, who is short-lived failed League 1 manager at the same club, nearly 20 years ago.

The story that comes to mind is actually about the Gas. A long time back they had a young Paul Trollope as Head Coach and a very experienced Lennie Lawrence as Director of Football. A lot of their fans questioned what Lawrence added, and presumably so did the board as they let him go as a cost-cutting exercise. It was subsequently quite clear what he added, which was experience with which to guide Trollope. The results tanked, Trollope was sacked, relegation followed, and ultimately a season or 2 later they were relegated out of the Football League.

The moral of this story is that experience and wisdom are undervalued in our current society and football it would seem is no different!

I made posts about the lack of the Director of football wise old owl at BCFC ten years ago.  Now think of clubs that BCFC could have been considered our peers, the successes and their development. BCFC undervalue this role.

Edited February 25 by Cowshed

[RedM]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Italian namesake.  I must’ve posted half a dozen times this week alone that both Gavin Marshall and Jon Lansdown said it.

I haven’t waded in on the who’s done better / who’s done worse, because it’s far too subjective.  Most players have had highs and lows.

One of the factors is that when players have had highs they have all been together, similarly like yesterday too many have had lows at the same time as well. 

[Graham76]

How about our academy players.   Before Manning took over NP & BT were telling us what a bunch of talented players we had coming through the academy, some of which we saw this season (Yeboah, JKL, J James etc).  Since then, nothing and to make matters worse we blocked their pathway with loan players. 

[italian dave]

35 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

“We could’ve just bumbled along this season, but what’s the point in that….”

That would probably have been more honest, yes!

Along with “illness/relationship breakdown/mistrust/job done” (delete as appropriate!)

But we’ve been through all that!

We know we’re not a top 6 side this season. We know we’ll likely finish mid way. That’s always been the case, and embedding a new manager makes that only more so the case.

So all I’m saying is what do we keep playing to an exaggerated version of what we all know is a Fawlty Towers script- it serves no purpose. 

[Cowshed]

42 minutes ago, bexhill reds said:

I think the point being alluded to is that the belief is that Manning is one of these new “textbook” coaches where everything is based on theory rather than experience, magnets on the whiteboard as it were.

 

 

The belief is silly. No able coach coaches solely out of a text book. 

All football is based upon theory. And experienced and inexperienced managers apply their systems of ideas (theory) to football.

Theory will tell a coach that magnets on a board are not the best means of communication for all players. Experience and theory will also tell a coach how to use differing learning styles of visual, aural, reading, kinesthetics etc (VARK). 

 

Edited February 25 by Cowshed