Improving players

[Davefevs]

24 minutes ago, italian dave said:

That would probably have been more honest, yes!

Along with “illness/relationship breakdown/mistrust/job done” (delete as appropriate!)

But we’ve been through all that!

We know we’re not a top 6 side this season. We know we’ll likely finish mid way. That’s always been the case, and embedding a new manager makes that only more so the case.

So all I’m saying is what do we keep playing to an exaggerated version of what we all know is a Fawlty Towers script- it serves no purpose. 

I think it depends what you call mid-table (let’s not digress into “top-end”).

If LM keeps us ticking over 11th to 13th, 60+ points, there ought to be enough of a mix of pluses and minuses to say the summer is one to build from.

I had expected 10th, and somewhere within the realms of turning W15 D14 L17 (59) into a positive wins v losses, for sake of argument W17 D14 L15 (65).  Assuming we picked up those points fairly consistently over the season, we’d probably still be in the mix until the last few games, even if a bit of blind hope…that would’ve been good, continued progress under Nige.  And that would’ve been the platform for a proper tilt in 24/25.  I don’t see us ending the season W5 D6 L1 (21), hence I’ve lowered my expectations of where we’ll finish…but not what I’ll be basing my evaluation on.  And that also means I’ll have lower expectations of next season.  That’s trending to disappointment in my eyes.

[bexhill reds]

21 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The belief is silly. No able coach coaches solely out of a text book. 

All football is based upon theory. And experienced and inexperienced managers apply their systems of ideas (theory) to football.

Theory will tell a coach that magnets on a board are not the best means of communication for all players. Experience and theory will also tell a coach how to use differing learning styles of visual, aural, reading, kinesthetics etc (VARK). 

 

Exactly and underlines my point, what point of reference does an inexperienced coach (from a league football) perspective go back to when things are not going well? Manning’s point of references will be a bit of L1, L2, and pretty much little else, all he’s got is the theory and experience that would have come from his coaching qualifications and academy youngsters. 

Does a business looking to recruit a new Ops Director bring in a Business Management graduate with potential or someone with experience? The answer is that they bring them both in, one to develop and one to lead.

Unless he can learn as quickly as he wants the current squad to, then I think he’s got problems.

[italian dave]

14 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think it depends what you call mid-table (let’s not digress into “top-end”).

If LM keeps us ticking over 11th to 13th, 60+ points, there ought to be enough of a mix of pluses and minuses to say the summer is one to build from.

I had expected 10th, and somewhere within the realms of turning W15 D14 L17 (59) into a positive wins v losses, for sake of argument W17 D14 L15 (65).  Assuming we picked up those points fairly consistently over the season, we’d probably still be in the mix until the last few games, even if a bit of blind hope…that would’ve been good, continued progress under Nige.  And that would’ve been the platform for a proper tilt in 24/25.  I don’t see us ending the season W5 D6 L1 (21), hence I’ve lowered my expectations of where we’ll finish…but not what I’ll be basing my evaluation on.  And that also means I’ll have lower expectations of next season.  That’s trending to disappointment in my eyes.

Pretty much the range you suggest was what I had in mind. We somehow always seem to gravitate to 14th

Next season: won’t that depend massively on whether we’re able to secure our summer targets, on who leaves, on whether we’re able to keep a more settled squad than has been the case for some time - and even on who goes up and down from the leagues above and below? Just feels like there are too many variables and unknowns.

Thats just my view though - and I doubt it’s as scientific as yours! 

[GBF]

1 hour ago, Spike said:

This is what frustrated me yesterday, Liam has been brought in to coach the team, to improve how we play both individually and as a team but in my eyes he is failing in both areas.

Vyner & Dickie - The one thing NP identified and rectified before being released was that no matter how he shaped the back 3 Vyner is not comfortable in a back 3 and lacks the positional awareness to cope with it so he switched to a back 4 where we saw Vyner really start to shine, so much so that he secured a new contract when many thought he was going to leave. Vyner is a great player in a traditional back 4 where the full-backs sit back and when they do push up a midfielder comes across to cover but in a back 3 where the opposition can counter he is often positioned poorly on the transition and indecisive on when to go to the ball and when to drop off, in turn it forces Dickie to move about more than he should at which point he gets caught out too. Simply put we struggle to deal with a good punchy counter off of the transition when using a back 3 and this is something that Manning doesn't seem willing to accept as he continues to try and use the back 3 with two wing backs system. What concerns me is that when Manning came in this is the kind of information the club should be giving him so he should be aware of it before he even begins to implement his style of coaching. If we was not made aware of this then instantly the club are off to a poor start as with any new manager/coach coming in there should be information handed on for the new man to evaluate and make his own mind up about but at the very least be made aware of. 
At this point Manning has had more than enough time to identify this issue but continues to try and have us play a 3 at the back whether it changes based on play or sticks to a flat three regardless. For me this is a major part of why we struggle with teams who sit back against us as they get numbers behind the ball, soak up the pressure and when we make a poor pass they get it out wide quickly and then pump the ball into the off middles area where this positioning in the transition catches us off guard and either Vyner is out of position forcing Dickie to move to cover or both men seem confused on who is going to attack the ball and who is going to keep dropping back. This issue doesn't come about nearly as much when we use a traditional back 4 because the initial transition is usually slowed down at the wide point to slow down the counter and prevent a quick movement up the pitch. With the wing backs we lose this and with the weaknesses with the back line in a three we become exposed.

Sam Bell - Looks like he's lost his edge to many when in fact I think the real issue comes down to what is being asked of him in this new system. Bell is very much a counter attacking player, he likes to get the ball and run at players who are trying to get their shape back but with the new possession-based football we rarely find ourselves in a situation where Bell is in possession and the opposition is tracking back, instead Bell is given the ball in a static position out wide with no space to get moving so he is forced to try and beat his man with pace over and over. When he pushes wide to do this and tries to cross but is blocked he rarely has a good inside option or any player making a run for him so he ultimately has to play it back to the defence in order to move the ball across the pitch as Manning loves to have us do. The goal of switching the play is to move the ball across the pitch as quickly and effectively as possible which in turn will create openings with the opposition, only this doesn't work that often at this level as any decent Championship team knows to transition their shape with the movement of the ball and we can't switch the ball quickly enough as Manning confirmed against QPR when we looked toothless.
Ultimately Manning has created a tactic in which Bell would only fit being one of a front two partnership as his finishing is good and if given the freedom he does like to get into the box and cause issues but again, this is not how Manning is setting us up. I do not see Bell doing well in this team unless Manning starts to implement a mixed approach where we not only play the possession and movement style of football but can also sit back and allow pressure onto us and use Bell as an outlet to move us up the pitch effectively on the counter.

Wells & Cornick - Another two players who are very capable in the right position and being used to their strengths but neither are being used that way. Cornick has a lot of qualities but under Pearson and Manning we've barely got to see them as much like Wells he's best suited in a front two partnership but due to nature of how Manning sets up and our lack of a pocket playing midfielder we never get to see them in their best roles. Ideally I think the best formation for us currently would be a 4-1-2-1-2 where the 1 behind the front two players would move across the pitch with the ball making wide runs or taking passes in the pocket to allow the front two space to move and create openings. The 1 in-front of the defence would also do something similar in that they would move across slightly when the full backs go for overlaps allowing him to drop in that space to reassure the back 4 and the 2 in the middle would adjust accordingly to these players movements to ensure there are passing options but also passing lanes covered.
That suggestion aside I do think that Mannings issue is that he wants to create a playstyle/tactic and stick to it regardless and his interviews when he mentions not moving the ball across the pitch quickly enough just confirms that in my personal opinion as rather than seeing that something isn't working and adapting the tactics to counter it he blames the players for not doing it well enough. The truth of the matter is if the opposition move their shape well enough then moving the ball side to side is never going to result in creating openings without a stroke of luck.

Mehmeti - Mehmeti is driving me up the wall, the bloke has the ability, he has the skill but he is sorely let down by his decision making and what frustrates me further is that Manning wanted Mehmeti before we bought him so he is essentially a "Manning player" in my eyes. What I don't understand is if Liam saw the ability and skill and wanted to sign him then surely he thinks he's capable of coaching him where his issues are and that's his final decision. I've lost count of how many times he's created something from nothing only to then make the wrong pass and undo all of his hard work. I also feel that with the coaching you'd see a whole different player if you had that pocket player to play the give and go passes with when he cuts inside but we don't have anyone playing that roles so when he comes inside he just aims to make enough space to take a shot and on the occasions where he doesn't think he has it he passes backwards and goes back to his wide role because he has no give and go option. 
This for me, again, comes down to coaching and tactics.

At this point I could write so much more but I am genuinely frustrated just thinking about it.

One thing I have been seeing a lot of on twitter is people saying what I was saying a few weeks back, that given a pre-season Manning could turn this around but in all honesty I think his interview killed that for me and I'm now very much expecting a repetitive circle of odd results followed by interviews about how the players played well this week when they win and how they just didn't do enough when they lose. Yesterday I was angry for the first time with Manning because that result was not on the players, he set up a formation and a tactic to play against a team who were obviously going to set up to counter what Manning has been putting out. Essentially Manning was predictable and his tactics were already scouted out by Wednesday and they outperformed us because they had the right set up and the right gameplan whilst we continued to try and push a tactic they were set up to play against.
Manning said that the performance was not good enough, the truth is we played right into Wednesdays hands and having done the same against QPR any manager who sees those results and watches those games in preparation to play against us will know exactly how to beat us, sit back, transition the shape with our passes across the back line, make small bursting runs at passing lanes until we inevitably make a poor passing decision and then hit us with a 1-2 movement outside and into the middle whilst our back line is on the backfoot as that's when Vyner misreads a pass or Dickie comes across to help because our line is out of shape. 

I personally hope a lot of teams see that we've lost to QPR and Wednesday and think we'll be a walk over and try to outplay us because that's the only way Mannings tactics are going to catch teams off guard e.g. Southampton, West Ham etc

 

[GBF]

Spike

 

i feel your pain. So many good points. Others have also said Manning is a coach not a Manager. I think very simplistically this is the key issue. We are rapidly going backwards 

[Davefevs]

34 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Pretty much the range you suggest was what I had in mind. We somehow always seem to gravitate to 14th

Next season: won’t that depend massively on whether we’re able to secure our summer targets, on who leaves, on whether we’re able to keep a more settled squad than has been the case for some time - and even on who goes up and down from the leagues above and below? Just feels like there are too many variables and unknowns.

Thats just my view though - and I doubt it’s as scientific as yours! 

Of course, just my expectations at this point in time….i’ll always reflect adjust, etc.  But Tins is bullish about the summer, so at this point…

[Cowshed]

17 minutes ago, bexhill reds said:

Exactly and underlines my point, what point of reference does an inexperienced coach (from a league football) perspective go back to when things are not going well? Manning’s point of references will be a bit of L1, L2, and pretty much little else, all he’s got is the theory and experience that would have come from his coaching qualifications and academy youngsters. 

Does a business looking to recruit a new Ops Director bring in a Business Management graduate with potential or someone with experience? The answer is that they bring them both in, one to develop and one to lead.

Unless he can learn as quickly as he wants the current squad to, then I think he’s got problems.

An answer would be the head coach develops and leads. 

As you are using the parallel of business. Liam Manning is clearly  unskilled clearly, the team has lows, and highs, so this is not all chance. He is in that business arc of change, problems in change, challenges have to be expected, unless we believe these players are capable of promotion.

My expectation was bottom half. Transition. Challenges and problems. Learning who can reach expectations, who can develop, who can cope, who progresses, and those to replace and bin because they can't, or won't meet the expectations of his big pictures vision.

Any coach, super or otherwise, has big problems here if they are viewed versus months while, implementing a differing direction.

 

 

 

[bexhill reds]

13 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

An answer would be the head coach develops and leads. 

As you are using the parallel of business. Liam Manning is clearly  unskilled clearly, the team has lows, and highs, so this is not all chance. He is in that business arc of change, problems in change, challenges have to be expected, unless we believe these players are capable of promotion.

My expectation was bottom half. Transition. Challenges and problems. Learning who can reach expectations, who can develop, who can cope, who progresses, and those to replace and bin because they can't, or won't meet the expectations of his big pictures vision.

Any coach, super or otherwise, has big problems here if they are viewed versus months while, implementing a differing direction.

 

 

 

I get what you are saying, but we both know that football does not work in that way. A string of poor results and the coach/manager is under pressure regardless of the hoped for end game.

The commercial implications of poor results and increasing apathy amongst supporters, e.g season ticket sales, sponsorships, corporate hospitality will all have an effect, and that’s before you consider playing side issues. On the playing side you have to consider relegation (probably not at risk this season but not mathematically ruled out at this point). Can the club survive a season or two in League 1, probably yes, but not without major restrictions on budget and transfer attractiveness that will ultimately set us back years, and also affect the club’s perceived value to investors especially if the current owners are seeking a way out.

Your expectation is not where the club publicly pitched the appointment of Manning, so whether that’s his fault or not, there is an immediate litmus test on his progress, and bluntly that’s not going well. I think the potential of this squad remains upper mid-table with a bit of twinge of playoff excitement as there is always a team that has a late run, and I don’t think Manning is currently capable of reaching that.

There are 12 games left, if we have 12 performances that are anything like the dross served up of late then I think he’s done, a poor result against Cardiff at home won’t do him any favours in the short term.

 

[Cowshed]

2 hours ago, bexhill reds said:

I get what you are saying, but we both know that football does not work in that way. A string of poor results and the coach/manager is under pressure regardless of the hoped for end game.

The commercial implications of poor results and increasing apathy amongst supporters, e.g season ticket sales, sponsorships, corporate hospitality will all have an effect, and that’s before you consider playing side issues. On the playing side you have to consider relegation (probably not at risk this season but not mathematically ruled out at this point). Can the club survive a season or two in League 1, probably yes, but not without major restrictions on budget and transfer attractiveness that will ultimately set us back years, and also affect the club’s perceived value to investors especially if the current owners are seeking a way out.

Your expectation is not where the club publicly pitched the appointment of Manning, so whether that’s his fault or not, there is an immediate litmus test on his progress, and bluntly that’s not going well. I think the potential of this squad remains upper mid-table with a bit of twinge of playoff excitement as there is always a team that has a late run, and I don’t think Manning is currently capable of reaching that.

There are 12 games left, if we have 12 performances that are anything like the dross served up of late then I think he’s done, a poor result against Cardiff at home won’t do him any favours in the short term.

 

The club expectation was a nonsense, and so was the removal of Nigel Pearson. The expectation of changing the Manager mid season, expecting him to change the approach of the team, and promotion are crass.

Jon Lansdown in football terms is ignorant and stupid. The man doesn't even have entry level qualifications for coaching kids football. Never played. Never coached. Never Managed. But takes far reaching footballing decisions for BCFC. That is ignorance and stupidity.

My expectations for the man ignorant and stupid employs is that his team continues on its path of lows and highs to the end of the season. The team has clear limitations in key positions. Players aptitudes are not synching with the football Liam Manning wants to play. The team will not be relegated. 

Liam Manning deserves a summer, additional players and that time of the grass to demonstrate he is the fit BCFC said he is, and Nigel Pearson evidently was not. 

[bexhill reds]

42 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Liam Manning deserves a summer, additional players and that time of the grass to demonstrate he is the fit BCFC said he is, and Nigel Pearson evidently was not.

I’d like to think the outcome of the next 12 games will decide that. To my mind poor results and more importantly poor performances would suggest he’s done nothing to earn a summer, especially as he now has empty weeks and an international break to convey whatever he wants to do. 

I’m not buying the players not being good enough or capable of change, these are experienced professional players mostly of championship quality, who are used to being coached and playing different styles - we know he’s not up to it tactically as recent games have demonstrated, but perhaps he’s not that good a coach at this level either…

Not sure of the need to highlight Pearson here though, my argument is the apparent inability of the incumbent and the lack of experience at this level.

Good debate though. Let’s hope you are right and I’m not.

[JP Hampton]

8 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I don't think it's harsh to ask if Anis was even playing yesterday. 

We all hope it comes good for him. But I think a loan move away may do him well. 

Unfortunately under Manning no players are ever going to be allowed to play with unpredictability. That's not how Manning operates. It's all structured. He's coached any unpredictability out of them. 

I think this is the point. It’s about players playing to a plan and seemingly, not about individual prowess, until that plan is incorporated into everything they do. Little room therefore for any spontaneity. 

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, bexhill reds said:

I’m not buying the players not being good enough or capable of change, these are experienced professional players mostly of championship quality, who are used to being coached and playing different styles - we know he’s not up to it tactically as recent games have demonstrated, but perhaps he’s not that good a coach at this level either…

Nor me.  Not aimed at Cowshed either.

I know it’s not as simple as this but the following outfield players signed to compliment our existing players all came from Cat1 academies.

- Tanner / James (Manchester United)

- Dickie (Reading) *was Cat1

- Taylor Gardner-Hickman (WBA)

- Roberts (Brighton) 

- Knight (Derby)

- McCrorie (Rangers) ** Scot Cat1 equiv

- Weimann (Aston V)

- Williams (Everton)

- King (Chelsea / Leicester)

- Mehmeti (Tottenham / Norwich)

I think it’s too easy to say they can’t fit into Manning’s style.  Of course coming from a Cat1 academy doesn’t mean that’s their strength per se, but they all have had a good grounding.

 

[JP Hampton]

6 hours ago, Spike said:

This is what frustrated me yesterday, Liam has been brought in to coach the team, to improve how we play both individually and as a team but in my eyes he is failing in both areas.

Vyner & Dickie - The one thing NP identified and rectified before being released was that no matter how he shaped the back 3 Vyner is not comfortable in a back 3 and lacks the positional awareness to cope with it so he switched to a back 4 where we saw Vyner really start to shine, so much so that he secured a new contract when many thought he was going to leave. Vyner is a great player in a traditional back 4 where the full-backs sit back and when they do push up a midfielder comes across to cover but in a back 3 where the opposition can counter he is often positioned poorly on the transition and indecisive on when to go to the ball and when to drop off, in turn it forces Dickie to move about more than he should at which point he gets caught out too. Simply put we struggle to deal with a good punchy counter off of the transition when using a back 3 and this is something that Manning doesn't seem willing to accept as he continues to try and use the back 3 with two wing backs system. What concerns me is that when Manning came in this is the kind of information the club should be giving him so he should be aware of it before he even begins to implement his style of coaching. If we was not made aware of this then instantly the club are off to a poor start as with any new manager/coach coming in there should be information handed on for the new man to evaluate and make his own mind up about but at the very least be made aware of. 
At this point Manning has had more than enough time to identify this issue but continues to try and have us play a 3 at the back whether it changes based on play or sticks to a flat three regardless. For me this is a major part of why we struggle with teams who sit back against us as they get numbers behind the ball, soak up the pressure and when we make a poor pass they get it out wide quickly and then pump the ball into the off middles area where this positioning in the transition catches us off guard and either Vyner is out of position forcing Dickie to move to cover or both men seem confused on who is going to attack the ball and who is going to keep dropping back. This issue doesn't come about nearly as much when we use a traditional back 4 because the initial transition is usually slowed down at the wide point to slow down the counter and prevent a quick movement up the pitch. With the wing backs we lose this and with the weaknesses with the back line in a three we become exposed.

Sam Bell - Looks like he's lost his edge to many when in fact I think the real issue comes down to what is being asked of him in this new system. Bell is very much a counter attacking player, he likes to get the ball and run at players who are trying to get their shape back but with the new possession-based football we rarely find ourselves in a situation where Bell is in possession and the opposition is tracking back, instead Bell is given the ball in a static position out wide with no space to get moving so he is forced to try and beat his man with pace over and over. When he pushes wide to do this and tries to cross but is blocked he rarely has a good inside option or any player making a run for him so he ultimately has to play it back to the defence in order to move the ball across the pitch as Manning loves to have us do. The goal of switching the play is to move the ball across the pitch as quickly and effectively as possible which in turn will create openings with the opposition, only this doesn't work that often at this level as any decent Championship team knows to transition their shape with the movement of the ball and we can't switch the ball quickly enough as Manning confirmed against QPR when we looked toothless.
Ultimately Manning has created a tactic in which Bell would only fit being one of a front two partnership as his finishing is good and if given the freedom he does like to get into the box and cause issues but again, this is not how Manning is setting us up. I do not see Bell doing well in this team unless Manning starts to implement a mixed approach where we not only play the possession and movement style of football but can also sit back and allow pressure onto us and use Bell as an outlet to move us up the pitch effectively on the counter.

Wells & Cornick - Another two players who are very capable in the right position and being used to their strengths but neither are being used that way. Cornick has a lot of qualities but under Pearson and Manning we've barely got to see them as much like Wells he's best suited in a front two partnership but due to nature of how Manning sets up and our lack of a pocket playing midfielder we never get to see them in their best roles. Ideally I think the best formation for us currently would be a 4-1-2-1-2 where the 1 behind the front two players would move across the pitch with the ball making wide runs or taking passes in the pocket to allow the front two space to move and create openings. The 1 in-front of the defence would also do something similar in that they would move across slightly when the full backs go for overlaps allowing him to drop in that space to reassure the back 4 and the 2 in the middle would adjust accordingly to these players movements to ensure there are passing options but also passing lanes covered.
That suggestion aside I do think that Mannings issue is that he wants to create a playstyle/tactic and stick to it regardless and his interviews when he mentions not moving the ball across the pitch quickly enough just confirms that in my personal opinion as rather than seeing that something isn't working and adapting the tactics to counter it he blames the players for not doing it well enough. The truth of the matter is if the opposition move their shape well enough then moving the ball side to side is never going to result in creating openings without a stroke of luck.

Mehmeti - Mehmeti is driving me up the wall, the bloke has the ability, he has the skill but he is sorely let down by his decision making and what frustrates me further is that Manning wanted Mehmeti before we bought him so he is essentially a "Manning player" in my eyes. What I don't understand is if Liam saw the ability and skill and wanted to sign him then surely he thinks he's capable of coaching him where his issues are and that's his final decision. I've lost count of how many times he's created something from nothing only to then make the wrong pass and undo all of his hard work. I also feel that with the coaching you'd see a whole different player if you had that pocket player to play the give and go passes with when he cuts inside but we don't have anyone playing that roles so when he comes inside he just aims to make enough space to take a shot and on the occasions where he doesn't think he has it he passes backwards and goes back to his wide role because he has no give and go option. 
This for me, again, comes down to coaching and tactics.

At this point I could write so much more but I am genuinely frustrated just thinking about it.

One thing I have been seeing a lot of on twitter is people saying what I was saying a few weeks back, that given a pre-season Manning could turn this around but in all honesty I think his interview killed that for me and I'm now very much expecting a repetitive circle of odd results followed by interviews about how the players played well this week when they win and how they just didn't do enough when they lose. Yesterday I was angry for the first time with Manning because that result was not on the players, he set up a formation and a tactic to play against a team who were obviously going to set up to counter what Manning has been putting out. Essentially Manning was predictable and his tactics were already scouted out by Wednesday and they outperformed us because they had the right set up and the right gameplan whilst we continued to try and push a tactic they were set up to play against.
Manning said that the performance was not good enough, the truth is we played right into Wednesdays hands and having done the same against QPR any manager who sees those results and watches those games in preparation to play against us will know exactly how to beat us, sit back, transition the shape with our passes across the back line, make small bursting runs at passing lanes until we inevitably make a poor passing decision and then hit us with a 1-2 movement outside and into the middle whilst our back line is on the backfoot as that's when Vyner misreads a pass or Dickie comes across to help because our line is out of shape. 

I personally hope a lot of teams see that we've lost to QPR and Wednesday and think we'll be a walk over and try to outplay us because that's the only way Mannings tactics are going to catch teams off guard e.g. Southampton, West Ham etc

Just wish I hadn’t used up all my reactions

[Sheltons Army]

12 minutes ago, bexhill reds said:

I’d like to think the outcome of the next 12 games will decide that. To my mind poor results and more importantly poor performances would suggest he’s done nothing to earn a summer, especially as he now has empty weeks and an international break to convey whatever he wants to do. 

I’m not buying the players not being good enough or capable of change, these are experienced professional players mostly of championship quality, who are used to being coached and playing different styles - we know he’s not up to it tactically as recent games have demonstrated, but perhaps he’s not that good a coach at this level either…

Not sure of the need to highlight Pearson here though, my argument is the apparent inability of the incumbent and the lack of experience at this level.

Good debate though. Let’s hope you are right and I’m not.

Not disagreeing anything you’ve said Bex

But IMO  evaluation process should be ongoing and not just about the outcome of the next 12 games 

If BT particularly , is professional and competent in his position,  he is literally around LM , staff and players all day every day and should be quietly watching , listening , his coaching , the effect in and response of players , his man management , and a whole host of things we don’t see

If he’s professional and competent he should be ruthlessly LM (Or whoever in that post) to professionally confirm their opinion , that they have the right man , or be honest internally and start to accept that there are some issues.

 

With a DoF , Technical Director and Head Coachset up that is absolutely the No 1 priority for any DoF / TD , at any club.

The appointment and change is one thing but what would actually be totally unforgivable that this evaluation is not done professionally and  ‘impartially’

By now with results and performances part of the picture , Tinnion , by now should be in a position and had time , including dealing with a transfer window together , to give a pretty accurate debrief regarding just about every aspect of LM to the Lansdowns and in essence whether he believes LM is still the right man.

Isnt that the simple reality ?

 

Whether Tinnion is the right man to be doing that is of course a debate, and whether he is open to admitting an error (If that was to be the case)  but it’s time to step and be seriously judged Brian....

LM may get the engine rolling and build something good , in which case BT will , and rightly take the credit due

 

But, if LM does transpire to be not what they hoped or expected and they compound what’s gone before and do nothing about it , or shut their eyes , then the events of the last 6-12 months will pale into significance IMO

[Cowshed]

21 minutes ago, bexhill reds said:

I’d like to think the outcome of the next 12 games will decide that. To my mind poor results and more importantly poor performances would suggest he’s done nothing to earn a summer, especially as he now has empty weeks and an international break to convey whatever he wants to do. 

I’m not buying the players not being good enough or capable of change, these are experienced professional players mostly of championship quality, who are used to being coached and playing different styles - we know he’s not up to it tactically as recent games have demonstrated, but perhaps he’s not that good a coach at this level either…

Not sure of the need to highlight Pearson here though, my argument is the apparent inability of the incumbent and the lack of experience at this level.

Good debate though. Let’s hope you are right and I’m not.

I highlighted Nigel Pearson because BCFC think he is was not the right fit. Liam Manning is according to BCFC. My entrance to the thread was a point about Manning ball. The poster I replied to isn't articulating what they understand it to be.  

Manning ball must involve passing and possession. Liam Mannings football clearly involves build up play, building through the thirds. His football is his variant of possession football. 

Teams playing possession football. Starting at one which teams does Max Olearys passing ability get him into? What possession team doesn't have a GK with a high level ability that influences team shape and dispersal? Do the successful ones? 

The GK's starting positions have been improved, his technical distribution deficiency won't be, and that leads to tactical limitation. 

The team has clear technical deficiencies in key positions from GKL outwards if its big picture is possession based football. QPR exposed limitation. The team couldn't play through them. Possession is leaden and slow moving - Its technical deficiency.

Problems and challenges, they are not reasons to cease pursuing the quest. Its a challenge to overcome. 

[Street red]

9 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I think Anis gives us a glimpse into the future under Manning. 

He's not a Manning signing but considering he was out of favour and that Manning went public that he wanted to sign him at Oxford, he can almost be considered a Manning signing. 

It comes across as he is desperate to prove that he was right about Anis. 

Naismith was quite vocal about Anis yesterday. That's worrying that his peers are having the same concerns as us fans. Does that then lead on to players themselves questioning the managers selections? 

Anis didn't play so much under Pearson because he wasn't ready if you look at man city certain players join and don't start regular up until a year that's so players can adapt to what the manager wants the player learning and improving etc It's man management with Manning he's played him regular ok a few glimpses of the what we can expect but over all his game needs improving and he's getting frustrated. 

[The Bard]

On 25/02/2024 at 10:08, W-S-M Seagull said:

I think Anis gives us a glimpse into the future under Manning. 

He's not a Manning signing but considering he was out of favour and that Manning went public that he wanted to sign him at Oxford, he can almost be considered a Manning signing. 

It comes across as he is desperate to prove that he was right about Anis. 

Naismith was quite vocal about Anis yesterday. That's worrying that his peers are having the same concerns as us fans. Does that then lead on to players themselves questioning the managers selections? 

Your first sentence is possibly the biggest argument for not renewing my season ticket.

Future is the least reliable member of the squad.

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

On 24/02/2024 at 23:28, REDOXO said:

I was reading all about how you can see the improvement in players and tactics from so many recently. 
 

Utter nonsense.
 

Manning himself said players have to want to learn after the latest shit show today. Maybe they don’t want to learn from him, regardless of the pretend improvements I can’t see!
 

 

I thought they were very coachable.....

[frenchred]

On 25/02/2024 at 10:26, italian dave said:

I’m probably going to get battered even more so than @RedM for this, but for me this thread pretty much sums up the negativity and the determination to find fault with anything Manning that’s so prevalent on here at the moment.

There are ups and downs, pros and cons, black and white and various shades of grey in any club and any season and especially when managers change.

Yet reading through the posts so far what stands out is the determination to attribute every single negative to Manning and every single positive to something or someone else.

Thats not being critical of your question, @Dredd. It’s a reasonable one. It’s more about what follows.

And, as a slight aside but another example of the negativity, @Merrick's Marvels - apart from the generic aspiration that any club in the Championship would have promotion as an ambition, who has ever said that promotion this season is or was our objective?? 

Get your head out the sand for Christ's sake

It was said in a few occasions by those at the top!

[italian dave]

4 minutes ago, frenchred said:

Get your head out the sand for Christ's sake

It was said in a few occasions by those at the top!

Thank you for that considered response.

And, leaving aside the one instance of Gavin Marshall, no it wasn’t.