Liam Manning league stats

[Davefevs]

9 minutes ago, Harry said:

It was only the Cardiff game in which he had to play a kid. 
The other 2 games listed above he had 3 first teamers on the bench plus Yeboah who he’d already used a number of times. 
In the Cov & Ipswich games, yes we had a shortage of CB’s. But as said earlier, he then weakened us at RB as well. He should have played TGH there (who he’d already played there 3 times before). Knight & James in CM. 
Yes we were a bit short at CB but it was only the Cardiff game in which we had a ‘crisis’. 

I didn’t say it had to reach the point of “crisis” for it to be an impact.  The impact was felt before Cardiff.

[Harry]

29 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I didn’t say it had to reach the point of “crisis” for it to be an impact.  The impact was felt before Cardiff.

Okay I’ll compromise

The Cardiff game was a crisis. There were 9 players out. 
The previous 2 games were a challenge, with 6 players out. 
But I still think TGH could have been deployed at RB to help matters. 
 

But, as an overall comparison based on your chart :

Nige had 2 games with 6 missing, 1 game with 9 missing and 1 game with 4 missing. 
Liam has had 5 games with 5 missing and 7 games with 4 missing. 
 

I’d say that, Cardiff game aside, it’s a pretty even record overall. 

[cidered abroad]

12 hours ago, Harry said:

Re Point 2. I agree. We should be aiming higher this season. We finished on 59 last year and so we’d want improvement. So neither is good enough. 
 

Re point 1, I’m not having that. 
Nige was without Conway for 7 games. A period in which he got 11 points. 
Nige was without Wells for 3 games whilst Liam was without him for 7 games. 
Liam has had Pring missing at times.  Hasn’t had a single minute out of Naismith. Has had Twine out. Has had Sykes out. 
The only major change really is that Nige had Vyner out for 6 or 7 games I think. 
 

Ultimately though, none of that matters. End of the day, current trend would suggest 59 points. The same as it was trending for Nige. 
As I mentioned the other day, we are basically getting the same results overall but just in a slightly different way. 

Does that mean Liam should be under scrutiny. Yes. To an extent. But it certainly doesn’t mean “get rid” like many on here are ridiculously shouting for. 
It basically means we are where we are and neither manager was able to get any more out of it. We’re a 59 point team, whether Nige or Liam is in charge. 
 

And that is purely down to the players we have. 2 managers playing different ways are getting roughly the same results in different ways. We have a 12th place squad of players. That’s where we are. 

Harry, I hope that your points estimate at end of season is what we'll end up on. But, having seen seven relegations in my time, I have a nasty feeling that the team spirit built by Pearson and his managerial colleagues, is no longer with us. That spirit over the last two seasons has kept us well away from the bottom five, but what will happen if I'm correct in my assessment? It only needs another two or three poor, losing, games to leave us facing a real problem. Those in the bottom five have been battling to get out of bottom three all season; most of our squad will not even see it coming!

[Harry]

6 hours ago, FNQ said:

Lots of well thought through points there Harry based on what’s happened so far this season and past performance predictions. But honestly based on our last couple of actual performances where do you see us picking up another 15 points? Five of our remaining 12 games are against teams above us who will have too much to play for, if we lose those games and pick up dour draws against the two Welsh sides we’ll need to win the remaining 5 to reach the heady heights of 59 points. 

As noted in the stats I presented, we pick up most points against that ‘middle 9’ sides. Based on the games played so far, if the same PPG rings true then we hit 59. 
Not saying it’ll happen, just saying that at the moment we are on course for that, based on all games played so far and where in the table those other teams sit. 

10 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

Harry, I hope that your points estimate at end of season is what we'll end up on. But, having seen seven relegations in my time, I have a nasty feeling that the team spirit built by Pearson and his managerial colleagues, is no longer with us. That spirit over the last two seasons has kept us well away from the bottom five, but what will happen if I'm correct in my assessment? It only needs another two or three poor, losing, games to leave us facing a real problem. Those in the bottom five have been battling to get out of bottom three all season; most of our squad will not even see it coming!

If we get relegated then Manning will rightly be sacked and I’d also suggest that Tinnion should be too. And Jon relieved of any input whatsoever. 
 

If we end up on less than 59, then we’ve ended up worse than last season and therefore questions would need to be asked about Manning’s future but again also Brian & Jon too. 

[petehinton]

Just now, Harry said:

As noted in the stats I presented, we pick up most points against that ‘middle 9’ sides. Based on the games played so far, if the same PPG rings true then we hit 59. 
Not saying it’ll happen, just saying that at the moment we are on course for that, based on all games played so far and where in the table those other teams sit. 

If we get relegated then Manning will rightly be sacked and I’d also suggest that Tinnion should be too. And Jon relieved of any input whatsoever. 
 

If we end up on less than 59, then we’ve ended up worse than last season and therefore questions would need to be asked about Manning’s future but again also Brian & Jon too. 

We could really do with Twentyman in these times.

One simple question of “Brian/Jon, you’ve been on record in saying Liam is doing a brilliant job, how can he be doing a brilliant job if he isn’t meeting any of the success criteria clearly given to him when taking the job?” would unravel everything 

“uhhh uhhhh Twiney… if twiney’s not available we’ll look for another 10 in the summer urrrrrr, Medube’s permit….urrrrr”

[mozo]

17 hours ago, Davefevs said:

A couple of points:

.. 

2. 59 points wasn’t the aim for Nige or LM

Probably an inevitable outcome unfortunately though, and roughly what most of us predicted pre-season.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, mozo said:

Probably an inevitable outcome unfortunately though, and roughly what most of us predicted pre-season.

I guess this is expectation v preduction.  I expected circa 65 pts / 10th..

If Nige had remained and only equalled last season’s tally (all things being equal) I’d have said he had stopped taking us forward.

I saw no reason with 18 points from 14 games with players on their way back to reduce my expectation.

I had “hoped” (not expected or predicted) that had we either kept Scott or used some of the money, we might’ve  (with a fair wind) done a bit better.

Alas.  That’s all history now.

[Bristol Oil Services]

Look, everyone, forget all the above, just answer this: Nige was 59, slightly jaded, seriously ill, on crutches, disliked by 'is boss, he had K C Palmer (45) on 25,000 a week, Danny Simpson at rb, Kinger as stopper, and and he only worked half a day a week; what is the boy Manning's problem?

 

[TheJudge07]

To be fair to LM, he has been thrown under the bus by JL and BT. No one really thought we were a top 6 or top 10 side, did they?  Yet, those comments from JL and BT have put him under pressure. Of course he will be judged against Pearson because JL and BT told us that Pearson was not performing with one of the best squads we have had. Complete balls, and we know it.  Pearson is gone and that is frustrating only because the board have ripped up for me what was a team in progress and they did it simply because they did not like him. We also took out all that experience and knowledge from our structure, which we have never had. We are basically starting again with a rookie, except the board havent said that. In fact, the lack of communication is deafening. LM has not improved us but he plays a completely different brand of football and we dont have the players who can play it, simple. He has shown glimpses but needs serious reinforcements in midfield and upfront. However, so did Pearson. Add to this what was a shocking January transfer window. No problem in getting in players for the future BUT they also had to strengthen for the now. They did not.  It could get very very toxic if we do not see improved performances in the next 4 games. We are now closer to the bottom than the top. Those wins over Boro and Southampton were essential.  I think we have to accept that the season is over and now it is about getting to 55 points as quickly as possible. LM needs to use this period to decide who is up to it and who is not and prepare for next season. There is no way he is going to be sacked but he is going to be under huge pressure in the Autumn if he has not been able to turn the tide. 

[AshtonGreat]

31% win rate - the same as Pearson's first full season in charge

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

31% win rate - the same as Pearson's first full season in charge

Total Apples and Oranges in terms of the context and the position inherited.

[Sheltons Army]

7 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

31% win rate - the same as Pearson's first full season in charge

In context - That’s failure then 

[Bazooka Joe]

21 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

I've always taken "mid" to imply that one is speaking about the top, middle, and bottom of the division. Assuming you want an equal split then in a 24 team division this means the "middle" is positions 9-16.

So taking your figures 55/56 is typically the lower end of mid table. 17th would be dipping into the bottom of the table.

Gissajob Jon and T'Onion believed we had a top six squad, but realistically it's now looking more like a top six(teen) squad. . . . and that's if we're lucky !

[1960maaan]

17 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

31% win rate - the same as Pearson's first full season in charge

The season where he had to start by getting rid of 14 OOC players ?

He did bring in 4 TBF. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, 1960maaan said:

The season where he had to start by getting rid of 14 OOC players ?

He did bring in 4 TBF. 

Cut the football wage bill by around 20% too, that was the net impact. Amortisation was also down. 

[Alessandro]

Manning has had injuries to contend with yes - but the rate at which he’s been able to rotate the first 11 and the depth of his bench has been on another level to that which Pearson could have (he couldn’t)

[Harry]

14 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

Manning has had injuries to contend with yes - but the rate at which he’s been able to rotate the first 11 and the depth of his bench has been on another level to that which Pearson could have (he couldn’t)

I’m not sure on that to be honest. 
Have another look at Dave’s injury data on page 1. 
 

Let’s take out the Cardiff game as it’s absolutely acknowledged that we were screwed in that game. 
If we take NP’s other 13 games he’s had :

Midfield : 11 of 13 games where he had James, Williams, Knight, TGH & King all available. 
 

Front 3 : 11 of 13 games where he had Wells, Cornick, Bell, Sykes, Mehmeti, plus Yeboah (who he was using). Add Weimann too for 7 of those 13 games. 
 

Left back : He had Pring & Roberts available for all games. 
 

Centre backs : Yes this was a problem area. He only had Vyner, Dickie & Naismith for 4 of those 13 games. 
So we were down to 2 fit CB’s for the majority of NP’s games. 
However - LM has only had 2 fit CB’s for every single one of his games. 
 

Right back : the only area where we technically didn’t have proper cover, however, TGH has played there plenty so there was always an option. 
 

The rotation options were definitely there for every position expect CB. Which is the same for LM. 
 

I think we’re getting a bit carried away by the ‘availability and rotation’ argument. Yes, the Cardiff game was horrendous for us, but in the other 13 games NP presided over there were rotation options in every position. 
 

[Red-Robbo]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Total Apples and Oranges in terms of the context and the position inherited.

Nige did indeed inherit a freefall nightmare of the sort that Manning hasn't. Manning inherited a mid-table side and they'll probably stay thus, unless the last two games are signposting the way the rest of the season goes!

Nige's overall City win rate is 32%, which isn't that much different. Neither Nige or Liam have been allowed to spend much. 

In all these "Manning is crap" threads I remain of the opinion that he hasn't been given long enough for us to ascertain that for sure. That doesn't stop me saying all day long that his appointment was unnecessary and may have halted any momentum NP was building with us. 

[Davefevs]

13 minutes ago, Harry said:

The rotation options were definitely there for every position expect CB.

And that is the point of my post re injuries.  CB is a pretty fundamental position.

It wasn’t about volume of injuries it was about availability to cover impacts in key positions.

 

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

In all these "Manning is crap" threads I remain of the opinion that he hasn't been given long enough for us to ascertain that for sure.

Agree.  It’s an unsettling picture, because we seeing mixed bag performances game to game, sometimes in game too.  We’ve had the full spectrum so far.

In some ways a derby at home to Cardiff ain’t a bad fixture to have.

[Robbored]

This type of thread is similar to what Ian Gay used to post on Ziderheads regarding Nige’s record - the only difference being that this one has context to it.

My take is why is necessary? Surely we don’t need stats to realise how inconsistent Manning has become?

[Merrick's Marvels]

14 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

In some ways a derby at home to Cardiff ain’t a bad fixture to have.

It certainly wouldn't - if we had a team allowed to channel a certain amount of emotional energy into their performance, to go alongside the more technical improvements that will be required.

But we have a robot in charge. 

 

[GrahamC]

29 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Nige did indeed inherit a freefall nightmare of the sort that Manning hasn't. Manning inherited a mid-table side and they'll probably stay thus, unless the last two games are signposting the way the rest of the season goes!

Nige's overall City win rate is 32%, which isn't that much different. Neither Nige or Liam have been allowed to spend much. 

In all these "Manning is crap" threads I remain of the opinion that he hasn't been given long enough for us to ascertain that for sure. That doesn't stop me saying all day long that his appointment was unnecessary and may have halted any momentum NP was building with us. 

Exactly where I am.

I certainly don’t think it’s been great but I’m not sure we are at the burning pitchforks stage.

I do think Pearson would have gained more points but that’s just an opinion, no one can say for certain either way.

[Harry]

50 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

And that is the point of my post re injuries.  CB is a pretty fundamental position.

It wasn’t about volume of injuries it was about availability to cover impacts in key positions.

 

Again, aside from the Cardiff debacle, there were only 2 games where he only had 1 fit CB. And we had to fill in with a combo of Pring & King. 
And we got 3 points from those 2 games. 
 

As said, LM has only had 2 fit CB’s now for 23 games! He hasn’t been able to rotate these. 
But the rotation across the rest of the team has been there, almost equally, for both managers. 

We’re basically just talking about only having 1 CB fit for 2 games. That’s the only real difference and hence why I’m not willing to hear that injuries and availability were so much worse for Nige. 
Yes - it was the case for 3 games. 

[Harry]

And for once I agree with Robbored. 
The injuries and availability are sideshow and are being used for pro/con arguments against each manager. When in fact overall it’s been somewhat negligible. 
We were an inconsistent team under Nige and we are still an inconsistent team under Liam. 
 

Whose fault is that? 
Well. BT and JL for making what seemed like an unnecessary change but making it worse with their reasons for doing so and their expectations of this squad. 
And secondly, BT and his recruiting team for putting together a squad of footballers with many flaws. 
 

[Rocking Red Cyril]

22 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Yes its very clear that our problem is that we are not very well coached. 

But we bought in a coach in LM so what's he not doing or are our squad in coachable?

[Gert Mare]

21 hours ago, Harry said:

Re Point 2. I agree. We should be aiming higher this season. We finished on 59 last year and so we’d want improvement. So neither is good enough. 
 

Re point 1, I’m not having that. 
Nige was without Conway for 7 games. A period in which he got 11 points. 
Nige was without Wells for 3 games whilst Liam was without him for 7 games. 
Liam has had Pring missing at times.  Hasn’t had a single minute out of Naismith. Has had Twine out. Has had Sykes out. 
The only major change really is that Nige had Vyner out for 6 or 7 games I think. 
 

Ultimately though, none of that matters. End of the day, current trend would suggest 59 points. The same as it was trending for Nige. 
As I mentioned the other day, we are basically getting the same results overall but just in a slightly different way. 

Does that mean Liam should be under scrutiny. Yes. To an extent. But it certainly doesn’t mean “get rid” like many on here are ridiculously shouting for. 
It basically means we are where we are and neither manager was able to get any more out of it. We’re a 59 point team, whether Nige or Liam is in charge. 
 

And that is purely down to the players we have. 2 managers playing different ways are getting roughly the same results in different ways. We have a 12th place squad of players. That’s where we are. 

So Liam is failing the requirements of him made by the Crayon Boy when appointed?

It's hardly surprising when you dismantle something that was actually beginning to improve and try to start again with someone who won't question the Ayatollah!

The way this season is heading we're gonna be left with the following certainties, NP should not have been sacked, the fans were lied to, Manning is not the right man to take this team to the top end of the Championship, the players aren't as good as Crayon Boy and Tins made out, Crayon Boy and Tins have talked utter bollocks and should be nowhere near the reigns come May and we'll be back to the absolute shit show of a club that Nige inherited.

I ******* knew this would happen. I was fuming when Nige got the bullet and I'm literally foaming at the mouth with anger now.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

Again, aside from the Cardiff debacle, there were only 2 games where he only had 1 fit CB. And we had to fill in with a combo of Pring & King. 
And we got 3 points from those 2 games. 
 

As said, LM has only had 2 fit CB’s now for 23 games! He hasn’t been able to rotate these. 
But the rotation across the rest of the team has been there, almost equally, for both managers. 

We’re basically just talking about only having 1 CB fit for 2 games. That’s the only real difference and hence why I’m not willing to hear that injuries and availability were so much worse for Nige. 
Yes - it was the case for 3 games. 

Ok, I’m moving on.

[Alessandro]

3 hours ago, Harry said:

I’m not sure on that to be honest. 
Have another look at Dave’s injury data on page 1. 
 

Let’s take out the Cardiff game as it’s absolutely acknowledged that we were screwed in that game. 
If we take NP’s other 13 games he’s had :

Midfield : 11 of 13 games where he had James, Williams, Knight, TGH & King all available. 
 

Front 3 : 11 of 13 games where he had Wells, Cornick, Bell, Sykes, Mehmeti, plus Yeboah (who he was using). Add Weimann too for 7 of those 13 games. 
 

Left back : He had Pring & Roberts available for all games. 
 

Centre backs : Yes this was a problem area. He only had Vyner, Dickie & Naismith for 4 of those 13 games. 
So we were down to 2 fit CB’s for the majority of NP’s games. 
However - LM has only had 2 fit CB’s for every single one of his games. 
 

Right back : the only area where we technically didn’t have proper cover, however, TGH has played there plenty so there was always an option. 
 

The rotation options were definitely there for every position expect CB. Which is the same for LM. 
 

I think we’re getting a bit carried away by the ‘availability and rotation’ argument. Yes, the Cardiff game was horrendous for us, but in the other 13 games NP presided over there were rotation options in every position. 
 

You’re conviently missing out the squad depth though with this like for like argument.

At a quick glance NP fielded 6, 6 and 7 academy players in his last 3 games

vs

Manning 1,2 and 2 in his last 3.

The squad depth Manning has had at his disposal has been greater than that which Pearson had in the run up to the dip which saw us drop from 8th and him getting the sack, hence last 3 being appropriate sample. 

 

Edited February 26 by Alessandro

[W-S-M Seagull]

33 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

You’re conviently missing out the squad depth though with this like for like argument.

At a quick glance NP fielded 6, 6 and 7 academy players in his last 3 games

vs

Manning 1,2 and 2 in his last 3.

The squad depth Manning has had at his disposal has been greater than that which Pearson had in the run up to the dip which saw us drop from 8th and him getting the sack, hence last 3 being appropriate sample. 

 

Exactly. And when the other team can make 5 subs and bring on 5 non academy players, that puts you at a disadvantage. 

Manning however has not had this problem of late and here we are losing to QPR and Sheffield Wed.