Our Model - It doesn’t work

[Mr Popodopolous]

45 minutes ago, Red Skin said:

Nice to have a thread that broadens out the scope of the discussion.

If I understand @Harry correctly, then I think what you were saying here is that OUR implementation of the model is completely out of whack.

Personally, I still believe that the model with the director of football defining a clubs footballing philosophy (and I'm being purposely vague) and having a say in recruitment of players and coaches to implement that philosophy is the correct one. Given that we cannot outspend other clubs, then you have to believe that having thriving academy aligned to that philosophy also makes sense. In terms of transition planning - players and coaches - it really is the only sensible option.

What's becoming increasely apparent to me is that:

 1. We do not have structure correct, or competent and experienced people in place to make it work. No surprises here really, but that's all I have to say on our particular setup as I don't have the detailed knowledge that clearly some of you have.

 2. Even if we had the implementation of model correct, changing from playing style A to playing style B is always going to take time and be a slow process in terms of player recruitment - both buying and selling. Two and three year contracts to see out etc.

 3. If you look toward the academy then you are talking about an even longer period to develop the players you need to fit the new style, albeit you can fast track this to a degree by buying in talent at a later stage in their development, ideally from clubs with a similar style to what to want to move to.

 4. Then there is the question of what kind of manager/coach should oversee this transition? If it's the incumbent manager that is playing style A, they have the challenge of recruitment bringing in players for style B and they will feel unsupported and undermined. If we recruit a coach to implement style B, then that coach will not have the players in the short term to implement it.  An almost impossible conundrum to solve and be successful in the short term for either coach.  

This isn't a quick fix. Brighton and Swansea had to reach almost rock bottom before they reset. Not so sure about Brentford's journey, but they haven't had an academy to factor in so that probably accelerated things for them, with Moneyball style recruitment.

I thought the thread on how Bergkamp and the Dutch players were only considering League 1 and League 2 teams to overhaul was interesting. Given that Swansea and Brighton rebuilds happen from lower reaches too, it makes you wonder how sensible and doable it really is to try and totally deconstruct things and overhaul everything for a team in the Championship. 

Unless we get very lucky, it's gonna take time and be painful.  Probably a couple of coaches, a DoF, and maybe even a relegation to achieve if we are serious about seeing it through.  So, those posters who say they didn't sign up for another rebuild and/or keep banging on about top 6 squad etc had better find a more healthy way to adjust to the new reality than getting increasingly furious.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A relegation??  

Are you serious?

I agree with elements of your post but the 2013 one was possibly inevitable and or in a small way needed.

A relegation would be disgraceful and a complete squandering of decent foundations.

We may go down in the next few years due to the disastrous trajectory we maybe on but what.

All of the work over the last 5-10 years to build the revenue, infrastructure and fanbase in some respects and 2 or 3 post the disaster that was inherited and avoid what befell and yet you think a relegation could be acceptable.

Edited March 4 by Mr Popodopolous

[Numero Uno]

43 minutes ago, Red Skin said:

Unless we get very lucky, it's gonna take time and be painful.  Probably a couple of coaches, a DoF, and maybe even a relegation to achieve if we are serious about seeing it through.  So, those posters who say they didn't sign up for another rebuild and/or keep banging on about top 6 squad etc had better find a more healthy way to adjust to the new reality than getting increasingly furious.  

 

I get what you are saying but if it really does take a relegation then Weston-Super-Mare or some other local outfit will be receiving my money.............when the club then show some sort of competency post-relegation I would be more than happy to return. I certainly won't be paying to watch Crayon Boy and the Geordie Snake (or anyone else brought in) repair the club's own massive incompetence if that's the way it pans out.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Neither Brighton nor Swansea got relegated to progress btw.

[Red Skin]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Neither Brighton nor Swansea got relegated to progress btw.

True, but they weren't in the Championship when the changed the model.   They'd reached the point where they were basically forced to rip things up and start again.  My point is that it's going to be very hard to make such a fundamental change and improve from day one operating in a much more competitive division.  It may not mean relegation, but at least stagnation and the inconsistency and mistakes we are seeing right now.   That's not absolving anyone of culpability for their part in what's playing out for us now, just my view that even with the perfect owners and the right personnel it still would be a difficult task to change things so fundamentally and still see progression.  You'd have to be delusional to think otherwise wouldn't you?  Oh wait... 

[Mr Popodopolous]

10 minutes ago, Red Skin said:

True, but they weren't in the Championship when the changed the model.   They'd reached the point where they were basically forced to rip things up and start again.  My point is that it's going to be very hard to make such a fundamental change and improve from day one operating in a much more competitive division.  It may not mean relegation, but at least stagnation and the inconsistency and mistakes we are seeing right now.   That's not absolving anyone of culpability for their part in what's playing out for us now, just my view that even with the perfect owners and the right personnel it still would be a difficult task to change things so fundamentally and still see progression.  You'd have to be delusional to think otherwise wouldn't you?  Oh wait... 

Brighton or Swansea?

Both had different paths up. Both had very different circumstances, 2013 relegation felt like our reset moment. Painful yet perhaps necessary.

Edited March 4 by Mr Popodopolous

[Red Skin]

1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

I get what you are saying but if it really does take a relegation then Weston-Super-Mare or some other local outfit will be receiving my money.............when the club then show some sort of competency post-relegation I would be more than happy to return. I certainly won't be paying to watch Crayon Boy and the Geordie Snake (or anyone else brought in) repair the club's own massive incompetence if that's the way it pans out.

Yes, and that's the risk they took when they embarked on this.   Losing fans in the process.   Our views don't seem to count, but maybe when the attendances fall and the money starts to dry up they will take a bit more notice. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

11 minutes ago, Red Skin said:

Yes, and that's the risk they took when they embarked on this.   Losing fans in the process.   Our views don't seem to count, but maybe when the attendances fall and the money starts to dry up they will take a bit more notice. 

This is a big concern of mine.

Relegation will maybe not wholly undo but severely dent the strides that we have made off-pitch.

Unlike the early 2010s, we do not have a bloated, imbalanced squad with signings made by multiple managers with different philosophies and a wage bill that desperately needs to be slashed against the clock. Aging in parts.

A relegation would be a mostly self-inflicted disaster. We have a solid base.

Edited March 4 by Mr Popodopolous

[redsquirrel]

11 hours ago, Monkeh said:

Like the rest of our recruitment,

It's dart board and hope for the best,

OR STEVIE WONDER DOING A RUBIK CUBE.

click click click, 'is that it?'

[Red Skin]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Unlike the early 2010s, we do not have a bloated, imbalanced squad with signings made by multiple managers with different philosophies and a wage bill that desperately needs to be slashed against the clock. Aging in parts.

I appreciate I've boiled it down to a very simplistic view of the DoF model, but that is in essence the strength of that approach.  You don't have a squad full of players the current manager doesn't want, and we cannot offload either.   The players are the club's i.e. DoF's players (a worry!) not any particular coach's players.  

I'm different to most fans.  I don't particularly care about being in the Premier League.  I want to see good football with local players part of that.  

[Harry]

7 hours ago, Red Skin said:

Nice to have a thread that broadens out the scope of the discussion.

If I understand @Harry correctly, then I think what you were saying here is that OUR implementation of the model is completely out of whack.

Personally, I still believe that the model with the director of football defining a clubs footballing philosophy (and I'm being purposely vague) and having a say in recruitment of players and coaches to implement that philosophy is the correct one. Given that we cannot outspend other clubs, then you have to believe that having thriving academy aligned to that philosophy also makes sense. In terms of transition planning - players and coaches - it really is the only sensible option.

What's becoming increasely apparent to me is that:

 1. We do not have structure correct, or competent and experienced people in place to make it work. No surprises here really, but that's all I have to say on our particular setup as I don't have the detailed knowledge that clearly some of you have.

 2. Even if we had the implementation of model correct, changing from playing style A to playing style B is always going to take time and be a slow process in terms of player recruitment - both buying and selling. Two and three year contracts to see out etc.

 3. If you look toward the academy then you are talking about an even longer period to develop the players you need to fit the new style, albeit you can fast track this to a degree by buying in talent at a later stage in their development, ideally from clubs with a similar style to what to want to move to.

 4. Then there is the question of what kind of manager/coach should oversee this transition? If it's the incumbent manager that is playing style A, they have the challenge of recruitment bringing in players for style B and they will feel unsupported and undermined. If we recruit a coach to implement style B, then that coach will not have the players in the short term to implement it.  An almost impossible conundrum to solve and be successful in the short term for either coach.  

This isn't a quick fix. Brighton and Swansea had to reach almost rock bottom before they reset. Not so sure about Brentford's journey, but they haven't had an academy to factor in so that probably accelerated things for them, with Moneyball style recruitment.

I thought the thread on how Bergkamp and the Dutch players were only considering League 1 and League 2 teams to overhaul was interesting. Given that Swansea and Brighton rebuilds happen from lower reaches too, it makes you wonder how sensible and doable it really is to try and totally deconstruct things and overhaul everything for a team in the Championship. 

Unless we get very lucky, it's gonna take time and be painful.  Probably a couple of coaches, a DoF, and maybe even a relegation to achieve if we are serious about seeing it through.  So, those posters who say they didn't sign up for another rebuild and/or keep banging on about top 6 squad etc had better find a more healthy way to adjust to the new reality than getting increasingly furious.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

See I don’t actually think the model whereby a ‘club’ has an ‘identity’ and an ‘alignment’ is actually the best one. 
 

There’s a helluva lot of talk about Brighton, Brentford and Swansea and the models that they put in place to gain promotion. 
 

But let’s not forget the other clubs that got promoted. Very few of them had a long term plan/vision. They just employed a bloody good manager or had a boat load of cash. 

Here’s the list of managers who have been promoted to the premier league since our playoff defeat vs Hull in 2007/8 :

Mick McCarthy, Alex MacLeish, Owen Coyle, Chris Hughton (twice), Roberto Di Matteo, Ian Holloway (twice), Neil Warnock (twice), Paul Lambert, Brendan Rogers, Brian McDermott, Nigel Adkins, Sam Allardyce, Malky Mackay, Steve Bruce (twice), Nigel Pearson, Sean Dyche (twice), Harry Redknapp, Eddie Howe, Slavisa Jokanovic (twice), Alex Neil, Aitor Karanka, Rafa Benitez, David Wagner, Nuno, Daniel Farke (twice), Chris Wilder, Dean Smith, Marcelo Bielsa, Slaven Bilic, Scott Parker (twice), Xisco, Thomas Frank, Marco Silva, Steve Cooper, Vincent Kompany, Paul Heckingbottom, Rob Edwards. 
 

There’s a lot of what you might call ‘old school’ managers in that list. There’s also a lot of guys who were relatively unknown foreigners (but for the most part I understand they either had experience at a good level abroad either as number 1 or number 2). 
Yes, parachute money played a part in a number of these promotions, but for every club with parachute money that did well, there were others who failed (maybe because of poor managerial appointments?). 
 

But aside from Brentford, Brighton and Swansea, I can’t point to any of those teams promoted in the last 15 years as having a standout ‘identity’. 
They mostly employed an experienced manager or a manager with a background which could be respected, allowed that manager to dictate what he wanted, and threw a bit of money at it. 
 

We seem to be the only club who thinks we can get promoted by doing it a completely different way to everyone else. 

I’m sorry - I wanted it work out, but the appointment of Manning is looking increasingly ridiculous given the above list of managers. 
Compared to pretty much every name on that list, Manning is an amateur. 
 

Our model absolutely feckin stinks. 

Edited March 4 by Harry

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

Our model absolutely feckin stinks.

Less “model” more “vision”.  And I think that vision relates more to what players you want than what playing system you are going to use per se.

For a club like us, why constrain yourself to one way of playing?  Just try to develop the best players you can, recruit the best players you can as cheaply as possible…and be relatively flexible in how you use them.

[Scrumpys Dietary Advisor..]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

Here’s the list of managers who have been promoted to the premier league since our playoff defeat vs Hull in 2007/8 :

Mick McCarthy, Alex MacLeish, Owen Coyle, Chris Hughton (twice), Roberto Di Matteo, Ian Holloway (twice), Neil Warnock (twice), Paul Lambert, Brendan Rogers, Brian McDermott, Nigel Adkins, Sam Allardyce, Malky Mackay, Steve Bruce (twice), Nigel Pearson, Sean Dyche (twice), Harry Redknapp, Eddie Howe, Slavisa Jokanovic (twice), Alex Neil, Aitor Karanka, Rafa Benitez, David Wagner, Nuno, Daniel Farke (twice), Chris Wilder, Dean Smith, Marcelo Bielsa, Slaven Bilic, Scott Parker (twice), Xisco, Thomas Frank, Marco Silva, Steve Cooper, Vincent Kompany, Paul Heckingbottom, Rob Edwards

and the one thing that all of these have in common is that none of them would accept or put up with being told what to do by JL who is the biggest obstacle to this club actually going anywhere as he blocks ideas by his own team that could move us forward

There was a MASSIVE amount of anger around the club just before NP's appointment. Amongst many others, I made a post at the time saying if we appoint one more "yes" man, then the club would lose a large chunk of the fan base..

We had NP for 2-ish years but he obviously dished out one too many unpalatable truth for JL and was exited and we have now reverted to type with our leaders thinking that that we have forgotten about the string of forelock tuggers that went before . Well, NO WE HAVEN'T...

Don't get me wrong, I was really hoping that LM would succeed, there were some early signs that looked good. We moved the ball at pace and attacked but now the team has also reverted to type and Tommy must be dreaming of the kind of forward ball that he got at West Ham. That is what he is good at, so why have we stopped passing the ball forward...?

This is pretty much going to guarantee that we lose any remaining academy players with any ability and the will to succeed. Tommy has probably made up his mind that he doesn't want to be up front on his own making pointless runs and gathering dust because noone will play a forward ball or cross to him. Why would anyone stay for that...

LM may well yet do well, I hope he does, but it is going to take a very swift move away from the current style if this is going to happen

We may be in luck though as it will soon be season ticket renewal time and an increasing amount of empty red seats on match day and a poor take up of renewals will ratchet up the pressure...

Edited March 5 by Scrumpys Dietary Advisor..

[Slack Bladder]

8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Less “model” more “vision”.  And I think that vision relates more to what players you want than what playing system you are going to use per se.

For a club like us, why constrain yourself to one way of playing?  Just try to develop the best players you can, recruit the best players you can as cheaply as possible…and be relatively flexible in how you use them.

Which Pearson would be far better at than Manning.

It seems odd that we seem willing to change an entire playing squad to suit one manager, than to change a manager to suit a decent playing squad.

[Davefevs]

15 minutes ago, Slack Bladder said:

Which Pearson would be far better at than Manning.

It seems odd that we seem willing to change an entire playing squad to suit one manager, than to change a manager to suit a decent playing squad.

To quote Brian Tinnion:

“We’ve got a squad built to play the way we want to play”

31st October 2023

[cidered abroad]

10 hours ago, Harry said:

See I don’t actually think the model whereby a ‘club’ has an ‘identity’ and an ‘alignment’ is actually the best one. 
 

There’s a helluva lot of talk about Brighton, Brentford and Swansea and the models that they put in place to gain promotion. 
 

But let’s not forget the other clubs that got promoted. Very few of them had a long term plan/vision. They just employed a bloody good manager or had a boat load of cash. 

Here’s the list of managers who have been promoted to the premier league since our playoff defeat vs Hull in 2007/8 :

Mick McCarthy, Alex MacLeish, Owen Coyle, Chris Hughton (twice), Roberto Di Matteo, Ian Holloway (twice), Neil Warnock (twice), Paul Lambert, Brendan Rogers, Brian McDermott, Nigel Adkins, Sam Allardyce, Malky Mackay, Steve Bruce (twice), Nigel Pearson, Sean Dyche (twice), Harry Redknapp, Eddie Howe, Slavisa Jokanovic (twice), Alex Neil, Aitor Karanka, Rafa Benitez, David Wagner, Nuno, Daniel Farke (twice), Chris Wilder, Dean Smith, Marcelo Bielsa, Slaven Bilic, Scott Parker (twice), Xisco, Thomas Frank, Marco Silva, Steve Cooper, Vincent Kompany, Paul Heckingbottom, Rob Edwards. 
 

There’s a lot of what you might call ‘old school’ managers in that list. There’s also a lot of guys who were relatively unknown foreigners (but for the most part I understand they either had experience at a good level abroad either as number 1 or number 2). 
Yes, parachute money played a part in a number of these promotions, but for every club with parachute money that did well, there were others who failed (maybe because of poor managerial appointments?). 
 

But aside from Brentford, Brighton and Swansea, I can’t point to any of those teams promoted in the last 15 years as having a standout ‘identity’. 
They mostly employed an experienced manager or a manager with a background which could be respected, allowed that manager to dictate what he wanted, and threw a bit of money at it. 
 

We seem to be the only club who thinks we can get promoted by doing it a completely different way to everyone else. 

I’m sorry - I wanted it work out, but the appointment of Manning is looking increasingly ridiculous given the above list of managers. 
Compared to pretty much every name on that list, Manning is an amateur. 
 

Our model absolutely feckin stinks. 

@Harry

Thanks for your accurate opinion. If Manning, Tinnion and the Lansdowns stay here, I can see Division Four or even lower coming very quickly.

After 74 years being a City supporter, I don't want to see this dross any more. Somebody required to screw the lid down please.

Edited March 5 by cidered abroad

[Silvio Dante]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

To quote Brian Tinnion:

“We’ve got a squad built to play the way we want to play”

31st October 2023

If he meant “badly”, then to be fair he’s not wrong.

[The Bard]

On 02/03/2024 at 21:55, DaveInSA said:

I go about three games a season. Maybe I’m not best placed to say this. 

But today was rubbish. 

Cardiff had no threat. Were generally awful. And yet, we were worse.

There’s nothing positive about this club. We’ll have 4-5 new players for 2024-2025.

Season tickets will be bought.

Manning will be god.

and if we’re not in the bottom 3 this time next year I will be amazed.

nothing in that game was good offensively. Zero. We could play for 165 years and not score. It was piss poor. 

 

.

Going occasionally enables you to see the direction of travel clearer.

A bit like seeing a fairly distant relative after 3 years and thinking "they've aged/put on some timber "

[IAmNick]

Agree with a lot of this thread, particularly @Harry's post above.

I think there's a HUGE survivorship / confirmation bias when it comes to a "plan" for promotion. People tend to look at the couple of clubs we want to emulate, look at their plans, and assume that's the "right" way to do it. However there are many, many more clubs who went up in a completely different way. There are also no doubt many who had a similar plan and got relegated. All clubs think they plan is good - just saying we have a plan, and here it is... that's not enough.

It's a bit of a cargo cult I think. We're building stadiums and HPCs (not out of wood on a pacific island, but sort of) and talking about our behaviours without really grasping the underlying theory. That's then manifested in the confusion of the actual implementation. Steve's at home watching yet another club pass us by, pointing at the things he's done and thinking no doubt we'll be next year, I've copied them exactly!

[Davefevs]

7 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

Agree with a lot of this thread, particularly @Harry's post above.

I think there's a HUGE survivorship / confirmation bias when it comes to a "plan" for promotion. People tend to look at the couple of clubs we want to emulate, look at their plans, and assume that's the "right" way to do it. However there are many, many more clubs who went up in a completely different way. There are also no doubt many who had a similar plan and got relegated. All clubs think they plan is good - just saying we have a plan, and here it is... that's not enough.

It's a bit of a cargo cult I think. We're building stadiums and HPCs (not out of wood on a pacific island, but sort of) and talking about our behaviours without really grasping the underlying theory. That's then manifested in the confusion of the actual implementation. Steve's at home watching yet another club pass us by, pointing at the things he's done and thinking no doubt we'll be next year, I've copied them exactly!

Yeah, think those clubs had THEIR plan for THEIR reasons.  Without understanding how they hit upon their plan, you cannot emulate.

[Sir Geoff]

11 hours ago, Harry said:

Mick McCarthy, Alex MacLeish, Owen Coyle, Chris Hughton (twice), Roberto Di Matteo, Ian Holloway (twice), Neil Warnock (twice), Paul Lambert, Brendan Rogers, Brian McDermott, Nigel Adkins, Sam Allardyce, Malky Mackay, Steve Bruce (twice), Nigel Pearson, Sean Dyche (twice), Harry Redknapp, Eddie Howe, Slavisa Jokanovic (twice), Alex Neil, Aitor Karanka, Rafa Benitez, David Wagner, Nuno, Daniel Farke (twice), Chris Wilder, Dean Smith, Marcelo Bielsa, Slaven Bilic, Scott Parker (twice), Xisco, Thomas Frank, Marco Silva, Steve Cooper, Vincent Kompany, Paul Heckingbottom, Rob Edwards. 

And only 3 or 4 of those could be called 'young up and coming managers'.

Rodgers, Adkins (maybe), Parker, Edwards

possibly 5 if you include Cooper but he was at Swansea for 2 years prior.

[chinapig]

43 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yeah, think those clubs had THEIR plan for THEIR reasons.  Without understanding how they hit upon their plan, you cannot emulate.

And assuming you have the right plan, if there is such a thing, you need to appoint the best, most suitable people you can to key roles to implement it.

I can't see that JL/BT/LM are those people so the plan is neither here nor there.

 

[RollsRoyce]

49 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

Agree with a lot of this thread, particularly @Harry's post above.

I think there's a HUGE survivorship / confirmation bias when it comes to a "plan" for promotion. People tend to look at the couple of clubs we want to emulate, look at their plans, and assume that's the "right" way to do it. However there are many, many more clubs who went up in a completely different way. There are also no doubt many who had a similar plan and got relegated. All clubs think they plan is good - just saying we have a plan, and here it is... that's not enough.

It's a bit of a cargo cult I think. We're building stadiums and HPCs (not out of wood on a pacific island, but sort of) and talking about our behaviours without really grasping the underlying theory. That's then manifested in the confusion of the actual implementation. Steve's at home watching yet another club pass us by, pointing at the things he's done and thinking no doubt we'll be next year, I've copied them exactly!

I thought we had finally set on our plan. Use a lot of youth, fast-tracked to first team, sink or swim, the ones that swim, become the team. Add in some excellent senior pros to set the standards, and guide the youth. It is a slow process, but it was a plan. It might have seen us struggle for a few years, but it also had the chance to have a breakthrough. You develop more than you sell , so eventually you have a collective that have grown together and work together. All with the basic underlying physical/power/intensity of the current Prem league standards. It might not give instant promotion, but it did mean over time you would attract better youth players, as they they know they can have the chance to sink or swim, you become the club for youth. I quite enjoyed the process, even without a promotion. I like watching a new face come along, and see if they can do it. As long as the team are giving maximum effort and commitment. 

I really have no idea what we are doing now, apart from going back to the repeatedly failed Lansdown dream of uncovering a young manager, when (McKenna maybe, and Howe apart) the vast majority that gets teams out of the Championship are experienced managers/coaches. It is what it is, it is a league where experience and pragmatism abound. The Prem is a different challenge, and you need aspects of the club to be ready, recruitment for sure, and some of your promotion squad to have the physical attributes to at least compete. 

But look at who is/are making the decisions. We have no one, yet again, who knows what they are doing to the right level. We make superficial decisions, without any deep understanding about what makes elite teams, performance or culture. 

[IAmNick]

1 hour ago, RollsRoyce said:

I thought we had finally set on our plan. Use a lot of youth, fast-tracked to first team, sink or swim, the ones that swim, become the team. Add in some excellent senior pros to set the standards, and guide the youth. It is a slow process, but it was a plan. It might have seen us struggle for a few years, but it also had the chance to have a breakthrough. You develop more than you sell , so eventually you have a collective that have grown together and work together. All with the basic underlying physical/power/intensity of the current Prem league standards. It might not give instant promotion, but it did mean over time you would attract better youth players, as they they know they can have the chance to sink or swim, you become the club for youth. I quite enjoyed the process, even without a promotion. I like watching a new face come along, and see if they can do it. As long as the team are giving maximum effort and commitment. 

I really have no idea what we are doing now, apart from going back to the repeatedly failed Lansdown dream of uncovering a young manager, when (McKenna maybe, and Howe apart) the vast majority that gets teams out of the Championship are experienced managers/coaches. It is what it is, it is a league where experience and pragmatism abound. The Prem is a different challenge, and you need aspects of the club to be ready, recruitment for sure, and some of your promotion squad to have the physical attributes to at least compete. 

But look at who is/are making the decisions. We have no one, yet again, who knows what they are doing to the right level. We make superficial decisions, without any deep understanding about what makes elite teams, performance or culture. 

Me too, but I've thought that a few times now. The "five pillars" seems to be gone from the website, but it's been archived: https://web.archive.org/web/20140811073302/https://www.bcfc.co.uk/news/article/20130206-lansdownfivepillars-641677.aspx

Quote

Lansdown on City's long-term vision.

Jon Lansdown has revealed an insight into the club’s long-term vision and strategy.

They were:

Quote

Community Engagement

The Bristol City Community Trust has already made its mark, reaching out to more than 50,000 young people in the region each year. 

With its own website, www.bristolcitycommunitytrust.org.uk, the club’s charity arm promotes social inclusion, health, participation and education. They aim to improve lives through the power of football and the Bristol City name is behind everything they do.

Quote

Academy and Youth Development

At the same time the club has committed funds into achieving Category 2 status in the forthcoming FA audit into the Academy, which now has its brand new base at Filton. 

Competing in the new Under-21 development league has also helped close the gap between the Academy side and the first team squad, while several of the club’s younger players have been rewarded with contracts.

Quote

Player Recruitment and Talent Identification

Revealed by the club’s majority shareholder Steve Lansdown in January, the club has taken a major change in direction with regards to its policy on recruitment. 

The club aims to sign players aged 24 and under more often than not, with older recruits becoming an exception, rather than the norm. The club is also building up a database of young players in all positions to aid in talent identification.

Quote

Financial Prudence and Control

Financial Fair Play will take hold in the years to come and Bristol City wants to be ready, so already the club is taking steps towards meeting the stipulated regulations.

A lot of that is tied in with a much more focused recruitment policy, but also in trying to increase revenue streams where possible – including at a new or redeveloped stadium.

Quote

Facilities

The players and coaching staff are now based at the Failand training ground full time, whilst the Academy has moved into its Filton home at SGS (South Gloucestershire & Stroud). 

A new stadium at Ashton Vale or a newly-redeveloped Ashton Gate, the club’s spiritual home, remains the club’s long-term aspiration. 

Supporters will have a key part to play should Ashton Gate redevelopment be the chosen option, including full consultation – starting tonight at the Fans Parliament. 

Some of it, arguably, we've been decent at. The community engagement is pretty good, and we have achieved Cat 2 status for the academy.

The player recruitment seems very familiar to what they're now saying - "The club aims to sign players aged 24 and under more often than not, with older recruits becoming an exception, rather than the norm." but that's definiely not been our approach in the interim!

 

Really I have no idea if I'm right here, but my assumption is we have no mechanism built in to course correct what we're doing. In theory, you'd want your plan and then to iterate on it gradually sensing if the bits you're implementing are moving you in the right direction or not. That needs to be built in, and for that to work you have to be getting honest feedback from everyone at the club, and that making it's way up to the most senior folk there (Tinnion, Lansdown x2). It sounds like we don't have that - the most senior people at the club don't seem terribly good at taking on board honest feedback on the stuff they've implemented (or tried to) so instead we stick with our plan, it gets way off track, then we panic, rip it up, and start again. We've seen that so many times.

Then we end up with the beginnings of a plan that's working (Cotterill, Pearson), they try and adjust it or build on it, but the people in charge simply see something sort of working, assume that's job done, why is this bloke telling me I still need to change, and then don't accept the feedback they need to take it to the next level and it all comes unstuck. Rinse and repeat.

Edited March 5 by IAmNick

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

but my assumption is we have no mechanism built in to course correct what we're doing. In theory, you'd want your plan and then to iterate on it gradually sensing if the bits you're implementing are moving you in the right direction or not

This is why we had to keep Nigel Pearson, Phil Alexander and Nige’s staff together that bit longer.

They built the plan (with Richard Gould) and in the last summer (2023) we were seeing the shackles being lifted, we were coming out the other side.

A plan that had been in place for 2 years or so, would likely need some tweaks as things move on in the interim.  We needed to see how this summer is recruits bedded-in, whether the ship was still heading in the right direction.  Under the current captain, he’d know whether it was or not, if not, likely know where it needed changing.

Instead we lobbed him overboard, and ditched the lifeboats (his staff), because the new team knew best.

[Red Skin]

19 hours ago, Harry said:

Our model absolutely feckin stinks. 

Ok, I get it.  I can see the theory makes sense, but it is all about the implementation and it's less straight forward that the old skool manager model.  

However, given that's what we are doing my point is that even under perfect structure and competent people in posts (which we don't) then it is still gonna be a very bumpy ride.  

[INCRED]

On 02/03/2024 at 19:57, Harry said:

For the last few years, Bristol City FC has been attempting to create its own ‘model’. Their idea of the optimum way to run a football club to provide it with the best chance of success. 
 

The ‘Model’ is supposed to be one where everything at the club is ‘aligned’.
It says that all of our teams from the under 8’s through to the first team will play the same way. 
I’m not sure that’s quite such a good idea but hey ho. 
But the most crucial element for me is that the model says that the first team will play a certain way and that we have a ‘Technical Director’ to oversee this and ensure it’s on track and everything is aligned. 
 

Personally, at this level of football, I don’t think that works. 
The scene is such that, any manager coming into the club should be of a certain ‘type’ and conform to a certain set of principles. 
The club have created a philosophy (call it an identity if you like) as to how they want to play football and any manager should align (there’s that word again) with that. 
 

The Technical Director runs the recruitment side of the business. 
He determines what players we sign and what manager and coaches we sign. He will try to conform to the club principles and appoint managers and coaches who will ‘fit’ and sign players who will ‘fit’. 
 

We see this sort of model at the top end of the game. Many of the biggest clubs run on a Director of Football type of model, where the manager has only limited say in the player recruitment and is basically just tasked with getting on with it, with the rather expensive tools he is provided. 
 

This doesn’t work at our level. We see this in all it’s gory (yes, not glory) with the Tinnion/Manning appointment. 
 

We have a club philosophy that desires to play in a certain way and players have been signed to attempt to slot into that style. 
We now have a manager who has been appointed who clearly likes to adopt a very different philosophy. 
I don’t blame Manning for this. We approached him. He didn’t apply for this job. He had a clear and evident CV, a body of work behind him, that was obvious to anyone who bothered to look that was at odds with our own club model. 
 

Furthermore, this new manager, whilst not having players who can play his way, doesn’t have very much say in how to fix this. 
His first transfer window and we make 4 permanent signings - 3 of which we wanted before the new manager got here. So the new manager arrives, doesn’t have players he wants and then the ‘club model’ signs 3 players that ‘the club model’ wanted. 
 

This is a huge issue for me. We are attempting to recreate models that have had success at places like Brighton, Brentford and even bloody Luton. But whilst those clubs had certain recruitment models, they didn’t dictate a ‘playing philosophy’ throughout the club. They just had very thorough and clever scouting and recruitment modelling. It didn’t dictate the playing style. Whenever there was a manager change the new boss still has his own free reign in terms of how he played and the recruitment model would then have to ‘align’ with the managers philosophy - not the other way round. 
 

When Dean Smith took over from Mark Warburton, he did things differently and they recruited accordingly. Likewise when Frank then took over from Smith, he had different philosophies on pressing, defensive positioning, midfield solidity etc. and the club then recruited accordingly. 
Luton played a certain way under Jones, but when Edwards arrived he harnessed what was already good but brought his own style to it and the club then recruited accordingly. 
 

What we have at Bristol City is a dictatorial model, whereby the Technical Director and Recruitment Team have defined a model and anyone that arrives at the club must buy-in to that model. There is no wavering. Yes, a new manager might have a bit of a say in some signings but generally they are targeted based on our defined modelling. 

Surely it’s obvious to anyone that this just doesn’t work. The talk of ‘everything at this club is aligned, from the under 8’s to the first team’ is just a false platitude. It’s a strapline that they think is clever “hey look at us, we’ve got an identify and model, we’re unique”.

That might work well at Barcelona or Man City but it’s pointless in the championship. It’s not what will actually bring success on the pitch. 
 

To achieve success on the pitch at this level you need a manager who is allowed to run the first team in his own way. Who won’t be dictated to by inferiors who spout about an identity and an alignment throughout the club. 

It’s time for Manning to depart, in my opinion, but it’s also time for the club to drop the nonsense and stop acting like a billy big bollox. The club think that they have a clever way of doing things and that it’s the only way of separating themselves from the challenging division we are in. 
It’s not clever. It’s nonsense. Drop the bullcrap. 
 

The way to achieve success was evident to us a few years ago when a man called Steve Cotterill was appointed. I wasn’t his biggest fan when he got here, and I also think the time was right for him to go, but the period he was here, there is no denying that he’s been the only manager in recent years that’s done things his own way and said “balls” to the ownership and ‘model’. 
Cotterill worked with an experienced Chief Scout and identified the best available players and signed them to fit a way of playing that HE wanted. 
None of this “we’re all aligned from the u8’s to the tea lady”. 
Just an experienced manager with an experienced chief scout, putting together a squad that would play to the managers identity, not the clubs identity. 
 

It’s time to ditch the bullshit. 
Get out there and employ a manager with cahuna’s, one with a CV that demands respect from his players, let him bring in the players that HE wants, not players that the ‘club’ have targeted for the last few windows. Let him put his own team together to play the way that HE wants. 
 

The current model stinks. There are people in positions of authority that have real negative impact on this club who are not fit for purpose. 
We need a board of directors who can appoint a respected manager, who in turn will be empowered to bring in his own trusted recruitment team or chief scout, sign his own players and have zero meddling from unqualified  nobodies. 
 

Our model is shit. And we will get nowhere with it. 

Interesting view and I neither agree or disagree. It is quite easy to critique people when things aren’t quite going as we want or would like. 
 

I very much doubt we will come away with anything from Portman road this evening but if we do then I hope LM is given the due praise 

What we have within the current squad is inconsistency in performance and results. It is the job of the coaching staff to address this and create an environment that puts out a performance level that gets results.

It would be the complete opposite reaction if we won 3,4, 5 on the bounce and get carried away and we seen this recently with wins over Southampton & Middlesbrough and talk of play offs

I’m not sure what the expectations are or were for most when LM was brought in but he needs to address many issues in the close season

Obviously we need a striker who can play as a focal point but also athletic enough to press and chip in with 10-15 goals per season

Decide who plays in the front three with a new No9 - Stokes and whoever LM wants to keep from current squad

Midfield needs an overhaul and will see new faces in the squad over the summer Bird, Murphy etc

Defence has been hit by injuries and thank goodness for Vyner & Dickie but need competition 

Goal keeper - Sorry but Max isn’t a No1 for this league, need a better option 

In summary, a lot to do over the summer and I can see a lot of coming and goings for various reasons 

This current squad isn’t anywhere near a top 6 team and unless LM is ruthless and deals with what is blatantly obvious he will not be our head coach for very long 

[Ivorguy]

Re the title of this thread.  
 

It isn’t the only thing about Bristol City that doesn’t work