Tinnion on SotC

[Dr Balls]

7 hours ago, Harry said:

Yep. 
I had a conversation with Tinnion back in early September and he mentioned this. 

Basically for a number of years now we’ve been playing our kids ‘up a level’. 
The 16’s play in the 18’s, the 18’s play in the 21’s etc. 

It’s designed around a progressive pathway and affording the kids opportunity at higher age groups and thus higher quality levels. You could argue it’s been quite successful. 
It’s also allowed us to loan out players from our 21’s, because we’ll have the 18’s playing for the 21’s instead. 
 

In September, I asked about the reason there weren’t so many 21’s out on loan this year as yet. The answer was because the focus this year was on winning the 18’s Youth Cup. 
Further reasoning was that, and I quote “we’re really proud of the academy and what we’ve done, but we’ve got nothing to actually show for it, so we want some silverware”. 
 

So yes, Kid, we have purposely sabotaged our successful youth model (with knock on effect to the 21’s loan opportunities and 1st team experience opportunity) because we want to win the cup. 
Who was it said that at that level it’s not about winning it’s about the development of the players? We seem to have said “bollox to that this year, we want the cup”. 

From an owner’s perspective it’s not the most ridiculous thing to say. BT has been bigging up the u18s age group for a while, saying how special they are. SL thinks that winning the FA Youth Cup would add some more prestige to the Academy, which to be fair it might. BT goes along with it because if the u18s did win it, it would be a massive ego boost to him. Whether or not it delays their progress is a fair point, but I am sure that the lads themselves would be excited to win something. Who wouldn’t be?

The bigger picture is why should we be thinking our u18s are needed to bolster our first team squad anyway. Why do we have so many first teamers missing that we can’t name a full subs bench?

And having looked back at the results in the FA Youth Cup, Swindon can’t be that bad as they knocked out Man United. Also unlucky to draw Man City in the semifinal as the other one is between Leeds and Millwall.

[Sir Geoff]

10 hours ago, stephenkibby. said:

Going away from bashing Tinnion for a minute, did they say at the start of the show that we have made history by reaching the semis of the youth cup?

I thought we reached that stage in the early 70s and someone on here posted a team sheet from the time.?

Got to the Final. Lost to Ipswich.

From memory Ashton Gate was packed for the home leg. Still got the programme somewhere.

[Kid in the Riot]

Ah, balls. It wasn't a nightmare. He really said it. 

[Barrs Court Red]

5 minutes ago, Tim Monaghan said:

The funny thing is, is that nobody would have been any the wiser if Brian hadn’t have gone on the radio this evening about the Youth Cup! Now everyone’s an expert on the under 18s and it’s tarnished the whole thing with the supports by the sounds of it. 

I know we are enjoying hitting the club at the moment, but who would honestly make that difference in the first team from the under 18s at the moment? Literally nobody was up in arms like this before last night that we weren’t playing 17 and 18 year olds or having them sit on the bench for the “experience”. 
 

There’s been a lot of comment on not filling the bench. Not a good start.  

Just playing devils advocate here more than anything, but as the under 18s have progressed through the tournament, don’t you think it makes sense to give them that experience as a group / teams mates moving forward keeping them all together and build that bond. Surely that only helps us? So you can’t just take negatives from it when you look at a bigger picture and the future.

Fair play, that is a level of mental gymnastics I could only aspire to.

I’d have gone with “we want to foster a winning culture across all age groups”. And I’d be well on board that mentality. 
 

I don’t think this would even be an issue if the results hadn’t been slightly different. Some of the 18s are and have been involved in the first team training. So are we just upset because some aren’t on the bench?

That’s not the scenario we’re in though, against the backdrop of “expect lots of youth players in the first team squad” (paraphrase)

If so, which ones from the 18s would you have had, because I haven’t heard any alls for them until now. 

Theres been a few, and I’ll stay in my lane here because I couldn’t name a single one

Again, just playing devils advocate here before abuse starts. 
 

Oh come on now, that’s incredibly disingenuous. 

I’m irritated that we’ve seemingly ripped up a long term model for a short term whim.  Others above have put it far better in that regard. 

[Bazooka Joe]

Manning is learning on the job (though, from what I’ve seen, he’s a very slow learner).

Anyway, for those who may be concerned about hearing this startling revelation, the good, and reassuring news is that Uncle Brian is his teacher.

Yes, the same bumbling, incompetent Brian that has in 30 years learnt absolutely bugger all worth knowing or sharing.

Apart from back-stabbing, sycophancy and alienating the fan-base through lies and his self-aggrandisement.

[Red Exile]

2 hours ago, luke_bristol said:

All credit to BBC Bristol, I thought they dropped off a lot when Twentyman left, but they’re slowly improving and making up for his absence, the questions were insightful and probing without being needlessly provocative. 

Agreed. I thought Richard Hoskin adopted just the right tone, and through his politeness and very gentle persistence seduced Tinnion into saying far more than I would imagine Hoskin expected...examples being the stuff that is feeding this thread - the under 18s lines (which Tinnion must have prepped as that was the main reason he was being interviewed)...the revelation of transfer fees...Manning being a learner...

At the time I didn't feel this was a PR disaster in the sense that any of this should have come as unexpected at the club. The media team must know Brian Tinnion - they clearly thought it was fine for him to go on a live radio show despite his apparent inability to avoid sharing his unfiltered thoughts. The rubbing of the hands at the prospect of easy matches after the Soton game stood out for me as  an unusually open revelation of how football professionals might be thinking - usually that sort of stuff is so guarded. 

Presumably the thoughts of honest 'Tins' - 'club legend', '30 years' and all that - were supposed to calm fevered supporters. The conclusion I'd draw is that it wasn't a PR disaster, but worse...this wasn't PR - this was an insight into what the man who runs the football side of the club really thinks. I was grateful to Radio Bristol for the opportunity to hear from the horses mouth exactly how things have been managed and will be in the future.

It wasn't encouraging.

[View from the Dolman]

4 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

The media team must know Brian Tinnion - they clearly thought it was fine for him to go on a live radio show despite his apparent inability to avoid sharing his unfiltered thoughts.

Would be interesting to know who approves/arranges media activity at present.

Dave Barton has been moved "upstairs" to Bristol Sport leaving what would appear to be quite a youthful media team at the club itself. Perhaps DB is still filling the role while his replacement is recruited?

[Roe]

At least they're all working hard

[exAtyeoMax]

1 minute ago, View from the Dolman said:

Would be interesting to know who approves/arranges media activity at present.

Dave Barton has been moved "upstairs" to Bristol Sport leaving what would appear to be quite a youthful media team at the club itself. Perhaps DB is still filling the role while his replacement is recruited?

Perhaps Brian is in charge of that too?

[exAtyeoMax]

 

[Bazooka Joe]

So the (self) highly esteemed Brian Tinnion has been with us for 30 years.

Reminds me of lyrics from a popular song.

”Thirty years of hurt

Never stopped me dreaming”

 

 

 

[Sir Geoff]

44 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

From an owner’s perspective it’s not the most ridiculous thing to say. BT has been bigging up the u18s age group for a while, saying how special they are. SL thinks that winning the FA Youth Cup would add some more prestige to the Academy, which to be fair it might. BT goes along with it because if the u18s did win it, it would be a massive ego boost to him. Whether or not it delays their progress is a fair point, but I am sure that the lads themselves would be excited to win something. Who wouldn’t be?

The bigger picture is why should we be thinking our u18s are needed to bolster our first team squad anyway. Why do we have so many first teamers missing that we can’t name a full subs bench?

And having looked back at the results in the FA Youth Cup, Swindon can’t be that bad as they knocked out Man United. Also unlucky to draw Man City in the semifinal as the other one is between Leeds and Millwall.

You're missing the point of the progression model that Tinnion has instilled in the club. U18's would be playing for the U21's and the U21' should be filling the 1st team bench (making up the numbers)

No one is suggesting under 18' s are being held back from the 1st team picture.

[Numero Uno]

1 minute ago, Sir Geoff said:

You're missing the point of the progression model that Tinnion has instilled in the club. U18's would be playing for the U21's and the U21' should be filling the 1st team bench (making up the numbers)

No one is suggesting under 18' s are being held back from the 1st team picture.

We've got a brand new model now. The first team lose important games with only seven on the bench. Does save on a room at the hotel when we're away though so not all bad.

[Harry]

8 hours ago, Harry said:

30 years eh?? That reminds me…..

We’re crap at home, we’re crap at home, for years now, City’s crap at home  

…….

cuz I remember..

A Robin on a shirt, Johnson’s Paint still gleaming, 30 years of hurt, never my pants I’m creaming  

 

 

12 minutes ago, Bazooka Joe said:

So the (self) highly esteemed Brian Tinnion has been with us for 30 years.

Reminds me of lyrics from a popular song.

”Thirty years of hurt

Never stopped me dreaming”

 

 

 

Already on that one Joe.  

[Silvio Dante]

1 minute ago, Sir Geoff said:

You're missing the point of the progression model that Tinnion has instilled in the club. U18's would be playing for the U21's and the U21' should be filling the 1st team bench (making up the numbers)

No one is suggesting under 18' s are being held back from the 1st team picture.

And to give him due credit it’s worked well (noting that it does rely on the willingness of the first team manager to play the players, and NP did do a lot of that).

The inherent issue is this. A good player at U18 may not be a good player at U21 may not be a good player at first team but you never know until you try - and you just end up with Frankie Artus sitting in your stiffs as the next big thing.

Had we followed this approach a few years ago we probably wouldn’t have tried (and discarded) the likes of Ryley Towler or Joe Low at senior level, and I’d argue their chances of making a senior career elsewhere would have been much reduced (see James Morton hanging for years in the lower age sides).

I get the short term prestige benefit. But ultimately players like Josh Stokes don’t sign here because we win a youth cup, they sign because there is a pathway and this seems counter to that approach.

[spudski]

1 hour ago, GrahamC said:

Anyone with half a brain can surely see though they’re playing Man City next?

If you watch the interview after the Swindon win Challis basically rightly says it is a long shot they get through.

FA Youth Cup semi finalists in order to bugger up the 21s & not fill the first team subs bench.

Genius move.

Basically they want a trophy cabinet at the HPC to show off

[The Journalist]

Just as an aside, reflecting on last night, I wonder how Manning felt listening to it and what their relationship is like.

Publicly, at least, they could barely be more different. Manning is as guarded and straight-batted (a polite way of saying robotic) as they come, whereas Tinnion was absolutely bursting throughout that. It didn’t take that much prodding for him to combust live on air and start spilling stuff he would never have intended to (as @Davefevs pointed out - the fees, bonkers!).

It’s wild to think he’s the technical director at a Championship club. 

[Bedred31]

Tinnion’s outstanding at the academy. Like any employee who does a job very well, he invariably gets considered for other, higher roles. But he’s been very bad at the two he’s had over the years. I’m sure that there’s a management consultancy book out there called something like ‘Horses for Courses’ and SL really needs to read it.

[Phileas Fogg]

I feel a tiny bit sorry for Tinnion - he’s in a role which has a public relations requirement and he just doesn’t have the skills/experience for it.

I remember being a bit unimpressed by Richard Gould’s interviews at the time - but in hindsight what an enormous loss he was. We’ve significantly downgraded our boardroom - and done so wilfully.

I appreciate Gould left by his own volition, but losing Alexander too (and not replacing him?), plus Pearson’s experience.. then filling it with Jon’s mates - it’s crazy. No checks and balances, no accountability, just groupthink. It’s a crazy approach and clearly won’t be successful.

[Bat Fastard]

Reading some of the posts on the subject of this pile on, and it seems that nobody realises that Brian is operating on a budget and to instructions given from above. He seems to have generally achieved good value with his signings and they are being employed within the pay structure set out by Jon and the bean counter.  Brian has leveraged substantial value from the academy to supplement our low cost recruitment policy. I would expect that Nige and his team were paid more than Liam and Hoggy.  This all serves to show why he is highly regarded by the owners and why we should all cut him some slack and appreciate the job that he has done in the circumstances.  

[Andy082005]

56 minutes ago, Barrs Court Red said:

I’m irritated that we’ve seemingly ripped up a long term model for a short term whim.  Others above have put it far better in that regard. 

We haven’t. That’s the thing - the short term whim was what we just witnessed under Pearson 

All they have done is returned to the model that failed previously 

[Jacki]

I listened back again this morning and it was a worrying interview. He was  indiscreet and seemed angry throughout, and said things (the McKenna stuff and some academy information) that are simply not true. I thought the way he spoke about some of the 21s missing their chance was a hugely disrespectful way to speak publicly about people who don’t know what the future holds for them after 10 plus years in the academy system as well.

The transfer fee stuff also blew my mind. He couldn’t wait to divulge the information and it sounded like he was a doing it because his beans were going and he was out of control - he wanted to sound like his finger is on the pulse. It was bizarre.

He kept talking about how hard people are working and I don’t doubt it for a minute, but there is a difference between blind hard work and long hours and being effective, efficient and doing what’s needed. We’re clearly on the wrong side of that at present. 

Unlike many on here, I quite like Tinnion and have no axe to grind with him. He is clearly passionate and wants to do well. But as I’ve said before, his job is far too big for one person and he is just not suited to the ‘first team department’ part of his job. He just doesn’t have the communication skills, intelligence and gravitas required for it. It’s a real shame but we really have created an unholy mess for ourselves and shot ourselves in both feet. God know how it ends. 

[Sir Geoff]

9 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

Reading some of the posts on the subject of this pile on, and it seems that nobody realises that Brian is operating on a budget and to instructions given from above. He seems to have generally achieved good value with his signings and they are being employed within the pay structure set out by Jon and the bean counter.  Brian has leveraged substantial value from the academy to supplement our low cost recruitment policy. I would expect that Nige and his team were paid more than Liam and Hoggy.  This all serves to show why he is highly regarded by the owners and why we should all cut him some slack and appreciate the job that he has done in the circumstances.  

Notice he didn't mention how much Mehmeti cost though. Only the cheaper signings.

[RedRaw]

6 minutes ago, Jacki said:

He just doesn’t have the communication skills, intelligence and gravitas required for it. It’s a real shame but we really have created an unholy mess for ourselves and shot ourselves in both feet. God know how it ends. 

Badly I would imagine 

[The Original OTIB]

He's an old fashioned football man, and there's nothing wrong with that. There's a big place for his type of experience in any business. Football, like so many, is getting more obsessed with the young knowing it all and following this and other trends. I hope he steps down and continues the good work in the area he knows best. He's in a position that could seriously sour things for him, and the sooner he realises that the better. The youth and pathway structure is naturally evolving. Let him progress with that. He will only get miserable with this route. As will the rest of us.

[lenred]

17 minutes ago, Jacki said:

I thought the way he spoke about some of the 21s missing their chance was a hugely disrespectful way to speak publicly about people who don’t know what the future holds for them after 10 plus years in the academy system as well.

A really good point that I overlooked in amongst the myriad of disbelief last night……It was really bad wasn’t it. I’m hoping that the lads he was talking about have already been told because if not it makes that part of the shit show a whole lot worse. 

[Sheltons Army]

12 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I feel a tiny bit sorry for Tinnion - he’s in a role which has a public relations requirement and he just doesn’t have the skills/experience for it.

I remember being a bit unimpressed by Richard Gould’s interviews at the time - but in hindsight what an enormous loss he was. We’ve significantly downgraded our boardroom - and done so wilfully.

I appreciate Gould left by his own volition, but losing Alexander too (and not replacing him?), plus Pearson’s experience.. then filling it with Jon’s mates - it’s crazy. No checks and balances, no accountability, just groupthink. It’s a crazy approach and clearly won’t be successful.

And we are now almost certainly going to be losing playing experience within the actual squad.

 

I was only thinking about Richard Gould’s time here , this morning and the overall set up.

It was clearly a testing time for RG downwards as we conducted , with a reduced budget , surgery on a dysfunctional squad , whilst keeping us away from threat of relegation 

But right then , with Pearson , Rennie , and Fleming , Euell , Tinnion seemingly one board’ and working well within the plan , undoubtedly happy as **** that youngsters were being promoted and utilised ......we actually felt we were set up not only for that surgery to move forward

Square pegs (With proven ability and experience in their roles) in square holes , tick , tick , tick

Even any question of JLs competence or SLs apparent wane in interest didn’t seem to matter , or likely to spoil what was , probably the best whole set up , (We’ve had some decent Managers but not the whole set up) we’ve had in my lifetime 

Now I look around across the whole structure , from the Lansdowns down to LM , and think  - who do I trust across the whole lot to ‘perform’ and make good decisions ?

for me - In all honesty , none of them at the present time

 

Away from results and performances in the meantime - as a structure what an almighty self sabotage

 

It means that if you had a magic wand and could get rid of one person , only one , in the structure right now , who would you choose ?

Because in reality I don’t think there’s one (Or I guess only one) you could choose to replace that would give any prospect of improvement and success.

Blimey just below the surface we look ‘fragile’ - We have all the ingredients for a crumbling 

Hang on tight

 

 

[Silvio Dante]

I posted the below five weeks ago - I think those were exactly the behaviours you saw last night re the fee disclosure etc:

But, to his credit, he’s taken some of the heat off Liam. Maybe he’s cleverer than he looks!

 

[LondonBristolian]

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

Slightly wrong Timothy. Lots of people on here have been talking about us not filling the bench and suggesting we could use academy to do so for experience if nothing else - indeed, I remember a poster saying it was good Twine was on the bench vs QPR for integration and the point was made that it would be equally good for an academy product to be so.

You’re also missing knock on effect. If you’re holding U18s in the U18s it means the U21s have to be held in that age group, meaning you can’t give experience to the U21s. I’m not an Omar Taylor-Clark fan for example but would his development have been better had Meerholz played up to the higher age and then OTC go into the first team group (I’d argue undoubtedly)

I’d also disagree that holding a team together in the U18s is good for development- take Medube. Looked shit hot for Man City under 18s but both in Belgium and here seems lacking for the men’s game. The fact is that all 11 of the U18s aren’t going to make it so you push the ones that will into higher ages to advance development. If you don’t you can hold the better ones back.

Finally, the point I think it’s fair to make is that if Liam Manning is being told he can’t have U18s (and by extension the U21s) because they’re needed for those fixtures it’s manifestly unfair on him. I’ve raised concerns about his use of youth - he may want to, he may not want to, but cutting off his legs from doing so is an entirely different matter.

I think the other thing to say is that it just adds to the contradictions. For example, it's been widely reported that Pearson was criticised for playing King instead of an academy player and now we're being told the plan was never to play the academy players. 

[Jacki]

2 minutes ago, lenred said:

A really good point that I overlooked in amongst the myriad of disbelief last night……It was really bad wasn’t it. I’m hoping that the lads he was talking about have already been told because if not it makes that part of the shit show a whole lot worse. 

I think some have… but honestly, these kids give their teenage years and their lives to these academies and the higher up you go, the more of a blow it is when it all comes to an end. At least treat them with a bit of respect and dignity.