FBC POD: 23/24 End of Season Review ft. Chris Honor & Richard Latham

[FNQ]

40 minutes ago, TDarwall said:

Whilst the nature if this league means you can never predict where your points will come from, you can't really argue that after Good Friday, the fixture list is incredibly kind to us & it's pretty inexcusable not to gain some positive results/performances.

We’ve recently lost at home to Millwall, QPR and Cardiff without scoring a goal… how much kinder can it get? Why are we left waiting for the inevitable?

[2015]

6 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Yup.

It’s notable that we’re one week from season tickets having gone on sale and despite there being two natural marketing points to tweet out - the winner of the free season ticket, and the  fact that telephone sales start today, it’s radio silence.

That says to me ticket sales aren’t where they hoped they’d be at this point.

And that won’t be solely on Manning - but he’ll - or more accurately his football - will be a large factor for many, and the lack of sales will focus minds in the boardroom. And that in turn adds pressure to both results and performance to incentivise people to renew.

To me, the game hasn’t changed despite what Latham may think. We get beaten (with no performance) by Leicester and then don’t beat a woeful Plymouth, I can see P45 next week. I don’t think he gets out of the woods fully absent a miraculous last eight games, but there will be a degree of wanting to do it before ST holders drift away.

I can't see it happening tbh. Even if we lose 7 of the last 8 and survive (which we will anyway) SL will want to prove to people he is right and we're wrong.

[Mr Popodopolous]

It's interesting as to how to look at periods of Club history.

Last 20 years have arguably been more successful than the previous 20..average League position, divisional status, possibly Cup runs but would have to fact check, Attendances, Infrastructure etc.

Yet there is rightly a feeling that ROI has not been what it should be, we have stuck and twisted at the wrong times and often, and made baffling managerial and transfer decisions.

Both points have some validity. Both have some truth.

Maybe without the Lansdown investment we would be more often have been in the 3rd rather than 2nd tier in some ways yet a bolder January 2008 sees protmion then and maybe Ashton Vale is an easier sell to all with the cachet of PL status either then or even for one season.

[Silvio Dante]

3 minutes ago, 2015 said:

I can't see it happening tbh. Even if we lose 7 of the last 8 and survive (which we will anyway) SL will want to prove to people he is right and we're wrong.

From SLs history (and current) I do disagree. We know he wants to sell and relegation leads to a lower price. He’s binned good human beings when that wasn’t likely immediately but was a real horizon risk. I think without improvement it becomes clearer to everyone we’re heading for a dogfight next season.

And Steve does not want that. The £ is more important than proving his son and Tinnion right.

[Merrick's Marvels]

18 minutes ago, 2015 said:

I can't see it happening tbh. Even if we lose 7 of the last 8 and survive (which we will anyway) SL will want to prove to people he is right and we're wrong.

Sadly, I tend to agree.

They're desperate to give him time in the summer with some new players and even more time on the grass.

There seems little evidence this is actually the answer, certainly not to be top 6, which seems laughable.

But like you say, Guernsey will be determined to say "I was right".

What did he allow Lee Johnson - 9 defeats in a row?

So, hey, why not Liam Manning?

Still struggling up to Xmas next season, though, and things change - even in Cloud Cuckooland where our Suits reside (tax free).

Edited March 25 by Merrick's Marvels

[Numero Uno]

8 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

From SLs history (and current) I do disagree. We know he wants to sell and relegation leads to a lower price. He’s binned good human beings when that wasn’t likely immediately but was a real horizon risk. I think without improvement it becomes clearer to everyone we’re heading for a dogfight next season.

And Steve does not want that. The £ is more important than proving his son and Tinnion right.

If we lose the next two he might go, if we lose the next three he will go. Everyone will be in uproar by that point. If two weeks on the grass results in a right gubbing on Friday I would be tempted to get rid there and then to give us a chance of going to Plymouth and getting something.

If you can’t stop losing football matches players stop listening.

[2015]

2 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Sadly, I tend to agree.

They're desperate to give him time in the summer with some new players and even more time on the grass.

There seems little evidence this is actually the answer, certainly not to be top 6, which seems laughable.

But like you say, Guernsey will be determined to say "I was right".

What did he allow Lee Johnson - 9 defeats in a row?

So, hey, why not Liam Manning?

It's HIS CLUB and he's determined to have an inexperienced young coach come in and do well for some reason, even if they aren't for the benefit of the club. 

He's seen Kieran McKenna do what he's doing at Ipswich and has decided this is the new route to follow. 

McKenna is to me the opposite to Manning. He's an actual attack minded coach who will throw caution to the wind if needs be (Which is why they ended up beating us 3-2 btw).

[Numero Uno]

3 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Sadly, I tend to agree.

They're desperate to give him time in the summer with some new players and even more time on the grass.

There seems little evidence this is actually the answer, certainly not to be top 6, which seems laughable.

But like you say, Guernsey will be determined to say "I was right".

What did he allow Lee Johnson - 9 defeats in a row?

So, hey, why not Liam Manning?

You couldn’t lose 13 out of your last 14 and keep your job. Steve would completely lose credibility across pretty much the entire fanbase in that scenario. His ego is too big for that.

[Silvio Dante]

1 minute ago, Numero Uno said:

If we lose the next two he might go, if we lose the next three he will go. Everyone will be in uproar by that point. If two weeks on the grass results in a right gubbing on Friday I would be tempted to get rid there and then to give us a chance of going to Plymouth and getting something.

If you can’t stop losing football matches players stop listening.

What has to be remembered about Plymouth is this - they’re not really that local, they’re not really that “rivals” - but they are a fellow “West Country” team who we are bigger than and whose fans will be desperate to turn us over. You turn up to that game passive and with - dare I say - no emotion and don’t win in front of 2000 travelling city in a smaller than normal stadium, then you’d best believe there will be a reaction. 
 

I think Leicester, absent a total gubbing, is a bit more of a free hit and it’s about the approach there. Plymouth is the game that is likely to screw him.

[2015]

2 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

What has to be remembered about Plymouth is this - they’re not really that local, they’re not really that “rivals” - but they are a fellow “West Country” team who we are bigger than and whose fans will be desperate to turn us over. You turn up to that game passive and with - dare I say - no emotion and don’t win in front of 2000 travelling city in a smaller than normal stadium, then you’d best believe there will be a reaction. 
 

I think Leicester, absent a total gubbing, is a bit more of a free hit and it’s about the approach there. Plymouth is the game that is likely to screw him.

I can't see Leicester hammering us. It'll be by the odd goal if anything, but I do fear if we turn up at Home Park being passive and timid like we have been these last 6 weeks then I fear we get comfortably beaten, despite their also recent poor form they'll be well up for turning us over.

[Merrick's Marvels]

1 minute ago, Numero Uno said:

You couldn’t lose 13 out of your last 14 and keep your job. Steve would completely lose credibility across pretty much the entire fanbase in that scenario. His ego is too big for that.

I think it's a bit late for Guernsey to be worried about losing credibility!

But believe me, I hope your prediction is right and mine wrong, even over the next couple of games - that would be a good Easter in my book!

[Mr Popodopolous]

14 minutes ago, 2015 said:

I can't see Leicester hammering us. It'll be by the odd goal if anything, but I do fear if we turn up at Home Park being passive and timid like we have been these last 6 weeks then I fear we get comfortably beaten, despite their also recent poor form they'll be well up for turning us over.

Woeful Plymouth is a bit of a stretch @Silvio Dante in respect of some Home Record elements anyway.

Plymouth have or have had quite a solid Home Record too albeit it's taken a hit.

Good against sides from midtableish down at Home. Under Schumacher they were definitely strong at Home.

Edited March 25 by Mr Popodopolous

[Silvio Dante]

8 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Woeful Plymouth is a bit of a stretch @Silvio Dante in respect of some Home Record elements anyway.

Plymouth have or have had quite a solid Home Record too albeit it's taken a hit.

Good against sides from midtableish down at Home. Under Schumacher they were definitely strong at Home.

Ian Foster was appointed 5th Jan - after a decent start (2 wins and a draw in his first three), in the next nine  he’s taken on Manning-esque performance levels and got the following record:

P9 W1 D2 L6 F6 A15

Home games have seen them lose the last four on the bounce without a goal.

I’m happy to stick with my definition of “woeful”

[Sir Geoff]

57 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Yup.

It’s notable that we’re one week from season tickets having gone on sale and despite there being two natural marketing points to tweet out - the winner of the free season ticket, and the  fact that telephone sales start today, it’s radio silence.

That says to me ticket sales aren’t where they hoped they’d be at this point.

And that won’t be solely on Manning - but he’ll - or more accurately his football - will be a large factor for many, and the lack of sales will focus minds in the boardroom. And that in turn adds pressure to both results and performance to incentivise people to renew.

To me, the game hasn’t changed despite what Latham may think. We get beaten (with no performance) by Leicester and then don’t beat a woeful Plymouth, I can see P45 next week. I don’t think he gets out of the woods fully absent a miraculous last eight games, but there will be a degree of wanting to do it before ST holders drift away.

The big problem for both Manning and the Lansdowns is that he has utterly lost the fanbase. No manager comes back from that. He will be gone next Autumn (sooner hopefully) unless his team start playing a style akin to Klopps heavy metal footabll imo.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, Silvio Dante said:

Ian Foster was appointed 5th Jan - after a decent start (2 wins and a draw in his first three), in the next nine  he’s taken on Manning-esque performance levels and got the following record:

P9 W1 D2 L6 F6 A15

Home games have seen them lose the last four on the bounce without a goal.

I’m happy to stick with my definition of “woeful”

I'd have to check his Home Record, they've played some high ranked sides at Home of late in Leeds, Ipswich, WBA and play-off contending Preston. No goals or points.

Just checked lost last 4 Home Games but I'd say a reasonable chance v us as we are not the level of those 4.

Edited March 25 by Mr Popodopolous

[RedRock]

Throughly enjoyed that. Really interesting views, many consistent with my own.

Expressed this previously, but trying to keep our stars - even with substantially increased wages - is near impossible, unless we can offer them a realistic prospect that the ‘group’ will put in a serious promotion challenge in the foreseeable future. The fact we’ve found it impossible to convince any of our rising stars that promotion is a realistic proposition says a lot about our Club. 

The three options we have in these circumstance are to build a team from an Academy which is nigh on impossible or buy in players which we develop or are oven-ready - our recruitment setup is abysmal and has been for years. The other option is a combination of both, but you need both to be successful. While our Academy has recently improved, our recruitment remains awful and without any seeming changes occurring that will result in different outcomes. We seem to have adopted the last approach, but until both elements of the strategy deliver we will be, and will forever be, stuck in the doldrums.

We’ve now further buggered things up by appointing an FA textbook manager, at a time when teams at our level need to adopt a totally different innovative, progressive style of football to become successful - that’s unless you can buy the best of the best practitioners of FA football which we can’t. Add to that a bizarre leadership structure and individuals who, at best, are ill fitting for their roles … and the outlook appears pretty bleak. 

Hey Ho. It could be worse, we could be Rovers I suppose… but so much potential, a mega-rich owner and local boy, with a Club that has not only decent infrastructure but support from the fans in terms of good Championship attendances … all appearing to be going to waste. Only City could **** this up so badly when such solid foundations have been laid. 

Edited March 25 by RedRock

[Sir Geoff]

59 minutes ago, 2015 said:

I can't see it happening tbh. Even if we lose 7 of the last 8 and survive (which we will anyway) SL will want to prove to people he is right and we're wrong.

Lose 7 of the last 8 and we re in League One next season. Cant afford to give 3 points to Blackburn, Stoke, Plymouth and Huddersfield.

[Silvio Dante]

15 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I'd have to check his Home Record, they've played some high ranked sides at Home of late in Leeds, Ipswich, WBA and play-off contending Preston. No goals or points.

Just checked lost last 4 Home Games but I'd say a reasonable chance v us as we are not the level of those 4.

So the argument is that they’re shit and so are we

On a similar front to Manning taking us over and making us worse, Foster has done the same post Schumacher. And just as you can’t look at our record under Pearson as relevant to how we’re doing under Manning, you can’t use Schumachers results in analysis of Foster.

Theyre absolute pony under him. Mitigant maybe of losing Azaz but here’s a nature of a thread on PASOTI currently:

https://pasoti.co.uk/threads/4-at-home-without-scoring.127428/

Edit - this screenshot feels awfully familiar!

 

Edited March 25 by Silvio Dante

[Merrick's Marvels]

46 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

He will be gone next Autumn (sooner hopefully) unless his team start playing a style akin to Klopps heavy metal footabll imo.

 

This is the crux, for me.

I thought after just a few Manning games that - iirrespective of having a "modern", "progressive", "young", whatever, Coach - we had appointed someone whose style of play simply won't be tolerated by this club's paying supporters.

Never mind the fact that this style of play is "the most difficult style" (source - Liam Manning!) and so requires the best players - the sort of players that are hugely expensive and so likely to be out of our reach (we can't even afford Scott Twine!). Never mind that, even though it already renders the appointment of Manning absurd, unintelligent, barking.

More than that, his preferred style is anathema to the paying Bristol public.

Only a Geordie and a bloke who knows nothing about football, never mind the history of OUR club (not his), could fail to understand that.

If either of them think there are 20,000 Bristolians interested in paying through the nose to be bored shirtless by dull possession football in the hope of winning 1 or 2 nil, they are going to be massively disabused and found utterly lacking in understanding what Bristolians are interested in from THEIR sports teams.

Funnily enough, Guernsey was happy this season to poke his nose into rugger affairs and tell the Bears' Coach to play in a more attacking style.

This might just be the time to do likewise with his Bobins' Coach, before season ticket sales go through the floor.

Edited March 25 by Merrick's Marvels

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

Yup.

It’s notable that we’re one week from season tickets having gone on sale and despite there being two natural marketing points to tweet out - the winner of the free season ticket, and the  fact that telephone sales start today, it’s radio silence.

That says to me ticket sales aren’t where they hoped they’d be at this point.

And that won’t be solely on Manning - but he’ll - or more accurately his football - will be a large factor for many, and the lack of sales will focus minds in the boardroom. And that in turn adds pressure to both results and performance to incentivise people to renew.

To me, the game hasn’t changed despite what Latham may think. We get beaten (with no performance) by Leicester and then don’t beat a woeful Plymouth, I can see P45 next week. I don’t think he gets out of the woods fully absent a miraculous last eight games, but there will be a degree of wanting to do it before ST holders drift away.

Season Tickets - not looking good is it?  Maybe this is a genius marketing approach that we aren’t seeing.

Plymouth - I’ll let you and Mr P fight it out.  I’m not one for predicting results, but I sense a tough game at Home Park, and I’m looking forward to seeing Hardie, Whittaker and Randall as much as our own players.

51 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Sadly, I tend to agree.

They're desperate to give him time in the summer with some new players and even more time on the grass.

There seems little evidence this is actually the answer, certainly not to be top 6, which seems laughable.

But like you say, Guernsey will be determined to say "I was right".

What did he allow Lee Johnson - 9 defeats in a row?

So, hey, why not Liam Manning?

Still struggling up to Xmas next season, though, and things change - even in Cloud Cuckooland where our Suits reside (tax free).

The real version is:

But like you say, Guernsey will be determined to say "I was right". - “you were wrong, it’s your fault”

45 minutes ago, 2015 said:

It's HIS CLUB and he's determined to have an inexperienced young coach come in and do well for some reason, even if they aren't for the benefit of the club. 

He's seen Kieran McKenna do what he's doing at Ipswich and has decided this is the new route to follow. 

McKenna is to me the opposite to Manning. He's an actual attack minded coach who will throw caution to the wind if needs be (Which is why they ended up beating us 3-2 btw).

Isn’t that the truth.  Prepping some notes for SOTC tonight.  I expect Ipswich to be mentioned!  For me they are the epitome of an attacking, fast-paced championship team.  Everything we aren’t!

[2015]

For me being progressive now and innovative is actually being direct and not solely the football being played without 'emotion' or based on positional play..

Too many coached following the likes of Pep, Enrique etc but not understanding this style only really works for them because they have world class players to execute it and it looks fantastic.

We have become too obsessed with statistics, having perfect passing accuracy and having ground covered.

I found this interesting - Henrik Rydstrom interview: How Malmo boss rejected positional play to become Europe's most innovative coach | Football News | Sky Sports

 

[Merrick's Marvels]

21 minutes ago, 2015 said:

For me being progressive now and innovative is actually being direct and not solely the football being played without 'emotion' or based on positional play..

Too many coached following the likes of Pep, Enrique etc but not understanding this style only really works for them because they have world class players to execute it and it looks fantastic.

We have become too obsessed with statistics, having perfect passing accuracy and having ground covered.

I found this interesting - Henrik Rydstrom interview: How Malmo boss rejected positional play to become Europe's most innovative coach | Football News | Sky Sports

 

It would be typical, typical City if - just as we commit to playing tippy tappy, possession based Guardiola-ball, the zietgeist moves on to something else - just as we think we're being terribly modern and "with it", the best teams are actually doing something different.

I mean, it's already happening - here we are with full backs bravely pushed high and wide and the best teams are playing inverted full backs/full backs as central midfielders! Here we are developing "wide strikers" and old school wingers are back in vogue. Here we are playing tippy tappy out from the back and the top teams are going direct, by-passing the press by hitting pinpoint 50 yarders from back to front! 

Laughable.   

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, RedRock said:

We’ve now further buggered things up by appointing an FA textbook manager, at a time when teams at our level need to adopt a totally different innovative, progressive style of football to become successful - that’s unless you can buy the best of the best practitioners of FA football which we can’t.

I agree with a lot of what you write but Brentford Frank, Leeds Bielsa?

Two non Parachute clubs, both successful, both fairly dominant.

I think for us the structure is wrong, the Manager/Head Coach is wrong among other things but in those 2, a mix of Possession and intensity in both cases.

Was the recruitment in some instances so dreadful in the big spending era or did we lack the management on the pitch and the structur off it to capitalise? Bit of both IMO.

Some of the additions were quite comparable starting point to Brentford if you look, at the point of signing. Some similar to Leeds too albeit they went quite big financially and were a higher turnover club too.

[Shauntaylor85]

2 hours ago, FNQ said:

We’ve recently lost at home to Millwall, QPR and Cardiff without scoring a goal… how much kinder can it get? Why are we left waiting for the inevitable?

If we cannot beat Huddersfield and Rotherham at home they all need to go. 

I actually think we will go on a run, I don’t believe in Manning, but the games coming up are fairly winnable on paper. It will paper over the cracks and we will struggle next season without a doubt but I am 99 percent confident Manning stays. I would have sacked him by the Int Break. 

Edited March 25 by Shauntaylor85

[headhunter]

1 hour ago, 2015 said:

It's HIS CLUB and he's determined to have an inexperienced young coach come in and do well for some reason, even if they aren't for the benefit of the club. 

He's seen Kieran McKenna do what he's doing at Ipswich and has decided this is the new route to follow. 

McKenna is to me the opposite to Manning. He's an actual attack minded coach who will throw caution to the wind if needs be (Which is why they ended up beating us 3-2 btw).

Compare LMs record to McKenna and quite honestly it falls well short in my personal view.

LM appears to have flitted between jobs, grasping at opportunities as they presented themselves; he has a sacking to his name already. If he turns things around here and achieves a modicum of success I suggest he would be off in pursuit of the next big thing if offered.

McKenna has been schooled at, arguably, two of the finest club's in the land. At Spurs he managed the U18s who reached the semi-final of the Youth Cup in 2015. He moved on to Man Utd. in 2016 in a similar role [U18s coach]. Come the summer it will be a full six years since he, at age 30,  & Michael Carrick were promoted to become first team coaches at United.

[Merrick's Marvels]

10 minutes ago, headhunter said:

Compare LMs record to McKenna and quite honestly it falls well short in my personal view.

LM appears to have flitted between jobs, grasping at opportunities as they presented themselves; he has a sacking to his name already. If he turns things around here and achieves a modicum of success I suggest he would be off in pursuit of the next big thing if offered.

McKenna has been schooled at, arguably, two of the finest club's in the land. At Spurs he managed the U18s who reached the semi-final of the Youth Cup in 2015. He moved on to Man Utd. in 2016 in a similar role [U18s coach]. Come the summer it will be a full six years since he, at age 30,  & Michael Carrick were promoted to become first team coaches at United.

Good point, well made.

And on the basis Tinnion was tasked with identifying Pearson's successor, a condensed version of your point might be:

Tinnion is out of his depth. (Polite version.) 

Edited March 25 by Merrick's Marvels

[Silvio Dante]

35 minutes ago, headhunter said:

Compare LMs record to McKenna and quite honestly it falls well short in my personal view.

LM appears to have flitted between jobs, grasping at opportunities as they presented themselves; he has a sacking to his name already. If he turns things around here and achieves a modicum of success I suggest he would be off in pursuit of the next big thing if offered.

McKenna has been schooled at, arguably, two of the finest club's in the land. At Spurs he managed the U18s who reached the semi-final of the Youth Cup in 2015. He moved on to Man Utd. in 2016 in a similar role [U18s coach]. Come the summer it will be a full six years since he, at age 30,  & Michael Carrick were promoted to become first team coaches at United.

I’ve said before - I think there was a bit of Ashton jealousy in the Manning appointment. You can imagine JL and SL sat there round the breakfast table bemoaning that they were right all along with the young progressive coach aligned with Ashton, so that should at least get half of that back and Brian can do the rest.

And then who better than McKennas mate. We want a young progressive and Ipswich connection seals the deal.

Once more, it comes back to godawful due diligence as he definitely isn’t a McKenna. I originally thought he just wasn’t a fit. He isn’t, but he’s also not very good fullstop.

[Davefevs]

Finally got around to listening to this one Dave.  Good show.  As others have said Richard is very contradictory at times, but makes some good points too.  Chris pretty balanced.

I so agree with Richard on the football “back and across” style.