Season 85/86

[Oh Louie louie]

Spurs averaging 20000 seems crazy, the gunner's weren't much better, maybe Les Kew lent irving scholar his magic calculator? Can recall Newcastle's gates being terrible in this division in the 90s pre keegan

[2015]

13 hours ago, GrahamC said:

If you were around then (& I was), not really.

This was the year of Heysel, the Millwall riot at Luton on TV. Pretty sure our one at Reading was the year before.

Football was seen as violent, an almost exclusively male pursuit in crumbling, dangerous stadia. Definitely not cool.

A lot of the 80s was like this.

Whatever any of us think about the Premiership, Sky’s influence & the rest, the rose tinted nostalgia for that time is to a great extent, misplaced.

 

Has gone too far the other way though now. Zero atmosphere at most stadiums and our fans are miles behind the rest of Europe and South America in terms of fan support in England.

[22A]

9 hours ago, sglosbcfc said:

I remember needing a pee at Blackpool away in the 80s and being shown to a wooden wall with a trench underneath, that is what you had to pee against. No taps or basin either. Different world now, even at the smallest League Two clubs.

 

Similar at WBA, except it was a brick wall.

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, Oh Louie louie said:

Spurs averaging 20000 seems crazy, the gunner's weren't much better, maybe Les Kew lent irving scholar his magic calculator? Can recall Newcastle's gates being terrible in this division in the 90s pre keegan

Terrible in many places.

2nd point,.although the mid 1980s was the nadir attendance wise, it still took a bit of a while especially below the PL for attendances. WBA e.g. are thought of as a decent sized club.

I saw some highlights of some 2nd tier (not us) games from 1990s on the weekend..some very empty grounds.

Tbh poor attendances for Newcastle need putting into perspective a bit because..sure it us poor set against  now but by the historical position not so much, when averaged.

I suspect nationally during the lower points they scored alright. Divisionally too.

Edited March 25 by Mr Popodopolous

[GrahamC]

41 minutes ago, 2015 said:

Has gone too far the other way though now. Zero atmosphere at most stadiums and our fans are miles behind the rest of Europe and South America in terms of fan support in England.

Maybe, but that’s a totally different point, isn’t it?

Crowds were low in the mid 80s for the reasons I mentioned.

[2015]

Just now, GrahamC said:

Maybe, but that’s a totally different point, isn’t it?

Crowds were low in the mid 80s for the reasons I mentioned.

Also because most clubs count season ticket holders in their matchdays attendances these days as well.

I'd wager a lot of the attendances announced in the 1980s were inaccurate due to the amount of fans who would sneak into the terraces.

Not saying that the hooliganism element put people off.

I just think we've gone too far the other way and matches in England are too sanitised for my liking, it's not a good thing but most would disagree with me i'm sure.

[GrahamC]

2 hours ago, Oh Louie louie said:

Spurs averaging 20000 seems crazy, the gunner's weren't much better, maybe Les Kew lent irving scholar his magic calculator? Can recall Newcastle's gates being terrible in this division in the 90s pre keegan

They were, they were really awful.

Only visit there for me was the game after Louie Donowa’s goal that beat the gas.

0-0, 12000 crowd, they were booed off.

Absolute myth that they have always had good crowds.

[Bristol Oil Services]

36 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

They were, they were really awful.

Only visit there for me was the game after Louie Donowa’s goal that beat the gas.

0-0, 12000 crowd, they were booed off.

Absolute myth that they have always had good crowds.

Yeah, but .... that was a good crowd, given, er, the points you made earlier in the thread ....

[spudski]

1 hour ago, 2015 said:

Has gone too far the other way though now. Zero atmosphere at most stadiums and our fans are miles behind the rest of Europe and South America in terms of fan support in England.

I touched on it before...apart from the infrastructure, which is better, football is now about all inclusivity. It's a bit like going to the cinema now. 

I'm not saying that's a negative...but probably why it's such a sterile atmosphere. 

From the same link...

 

[2015]

4 minutes ago, spudski said:

I touched on it before...apart from the infrastructure, which is better, football is now about all inclusivity. It's a bit like going to the cinema now. 

I'm not saying that's a negative...but probably why it's such a sterile atmosphere. 

Which is why it's not really for me. I don't want violence, but I would like a hostile atmosphere. Away team being booed and whistled from minute 1 to 90, AG to be a fortress.

[GrahamC]

21 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

Yeah, but .... that was a good crowd, given, er, the points you made earlier in the thread ....

Relatively yes, but you must have heard the myth that Newcastle have always had at least 30,000 at their games trotted out in more recent times?

 

[Kid in the Riot]

14 minutes ago, 2015 said:

Which is why it's not really for me. I don't want violence, but I would like a hostile atmosphere. Away team being booed and whistled from minute 1 to 90, AG to be a fortress.

When has this ever happened though? 

My first City games were 94/95 against Tranmere and Derby County. Crowds of about 8,000 rattling around a more than half empty stadium. I don't recall the atmosphere being vociferous or intimidating. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Here is a good putting into context. Forget individual clubs for a moment, divisional averages over time.

You can find individual clubs too.

Took until the mid to late 1990s, early 2000s below the PL for football grounds to become properly packed again even after all-seater, WC 1990, Euro 96 etc.

Edited March 25 by Mr Popodopolous

[Bristol Oil Services]

1 hour ago, Kid in the Riot said:

When has this ever happened though? 

My first City games were 94/95 against Tranmere and Derby County. Crowds of about 8,000 rattling around a more than half empty stadium. I don't recall the atmosphere being vociferous or intimidating. 

That's cos yer rock hard, Kid

[22A]

56 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Here is a good putting into context. Forget individual clubs for a moment, divisional averages over time.

 

Trouble is divisional averages can be skewed. Wigan and Wimbledon in the top division would have lowered that and going back further; Man U and Villa in the 2nd tier. In fact when Villa dropped into Div 3 they'd get 20,000+ at home and had  good away support as did Woolves when they were in the bottom 2 divisions.

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, 22A said:

Trouble is divisional averages can be skewed. Wigan and Wimbledon in the top division would have lowered that and going back further; Man U and Villa in the 2nd tier. In fact when Villa dropped into Div 3 they'd get 20,000+ at home and had  good away support as did Woolves when they were in the bottom 2 divisions.

Yes agreed. Another point is the difference about Pay on Gate, actual attendance and tickets sold. All move the dial a bit. Still though it wasn't just a case of Hello all seater, hello PL, hello WC 90 and everyone comes back..took longer than that.

Wolves averaged 4k one year.

[DaveInSA]

7 hours ago, spudski said:

I guess many of us on here were there back then. And we all remember how it was...but it's an eye opener as to how many more people now attend imo.

Your second paragraph could still be a reflection of many football clubs/ stadiums around the world. Less so in wealthier Europe, but in other football mad countries it applies. 

Misplaced nostalgia...sometimes...but we had no alternative. That's how it was. If our part of the world hadn't changed, we'd still be going, and still enjoying it. Like many do in those same circumstances in say the likes of South America and Eastern Europe. 

I know I have fonder memories of those times than I do from more recent times. And have enjoyed visiting foreign stadia in the those conditions now. 

You mentioned it was exclusively a male pursuit...which made me wonder...is there anything in this country that males do exclusively as a collective anymore? 

I can't think of anything. 

 

 

I am involved with a national charity that hold spaces exclusively for men and teenage boys. They’re out there. Teenage boys need adult male role models and we create safe spaces for them to explore what it means to become a healthy male adult.

I agree though, male exclusive spaces are very hard to find. They even let birds in the pub nowadays. 

[SecretSam]

18 hours ago, Bris Red said:

Gone far too much the other way now though IMO, of course we all want to go to a safe and inclusive environment when we go to football but the whole match day experience at 99% of football clubs in this country has become far too sanitised.

 

By 'sanitised', do you mean 'safe and welcoming'? 'Comfortable'? 'Pleasant'?

Before you respond, I attended in the '80s, including a particularly bottom-clenching evening game at the (old) Den. Give me modern facilities every time.

[SecretSam]

3 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

When has this ever happened though? 

My first City games were 94/95 against Tranmere and Derby County. Crowds of about 8,000 rattling around a more than half empty stadium. I don't recall the atmosphere being vociferous or intimidating. 

Agree to some extent, although I remember the atmosphere at 1980s Bristol derbies was pretty spicy

[SecretSam]

14 hours ago, sglosbcfc said:

I remember needing a pee at Blackpool away in the 80s and being shown to a wooden wall with a trench underneath, that is what you had to pee against. No taps or basin either. Different world now, even at the smallest League Two clubs.

 

I remember something similar at the old Wembley, in c.2000. Whenever I hear people going on about how wonderful that old ground was, I think "you must have been in the Royal Box"!

[SecretSam]

3 hours ago, 2015 said:

Which is why it's not really for me. I don't want violence, but I would like a hostile atmosphere. Away team being booed and whistled from minute 1 to 90, AG to be a fortress.

The last time AG was a fortress was under Cooper, when we'd win 17 out of 23 home games. And maybe 3 away...

[spudski]

43 minutes ago, DaveInSA said:

I am involved with a national charity that hold spaces exclusively for men and teenage boys. They’re out there. Teenage boys need adult male role models and we create safe spaces for them to explore what it means to become a healthy male adult.

I agree though, male exclusive spaces are very hard to find. They even let birds in the pub nowadays. 

That's a great initiative. 

There seems to be far more all female initiatives. 

 

[TDarwall]

27 minutes ago, SecretSam said:

The last time AG was a fortress was under Cooper, when we'd win 17 out of 23 home games. And maybe 3 away...

I think that's part of the reason I got hooked. I started watching regularly under TC. It may be a bit of rose tinted nostalgia but we seemed to just go for it from the 1st min at home & had a great home record. Like you say away wad different (but I didn't go away much as kid so it seemed to matter less!). Weirdly, I think 2 seasons running despite being poor away, we battered Bolton 4-1.

[SecretSam]

3 hours ago, spudski said:

That's a great initiative. 

There seems to be far more all female initiatives. 

 

Until recently, awareness of women's health and providing space for women was an issue. Now it's out there, so less of an issue.

As others have said, those formerly male-dominated spaces are now more broadly accessed - a good thing. However, even in the days when they were male dominated, me didn't really talk. So spaces for men and younger males to talk are important - suicide being the biggest killer of young men, for example.

But it can't become about toxic masculinity, misogyny and exclusion - it has to be about men's health, be it mental or physical health (look at the recent uptake in prostate checks following the king's diagnosis).

[spudski]

39 minutes ago, SecretSam said:

Until recently, awareness of women's health and providing space for women was an issue. Now it's out there, so less of an issue.

As others have said, those formerly male-dominated spaces are now more broadly accessed - a good thing. However, even in the days when they were male dominated, me didn't really talk. So spaces for men and younger males to talk are important - suicide being the biggest killer of young men, for example.

But it can't become about toxic masculinity, misogyny and exclusion - it has to be about men's health, be it mental or physical health (look at the recent uptake in prostate checks following the king's diagnosis).

In the same way it can't become about toxic feminism, and exclusion? 

Playing devil's advocate, as I do agree with your sentiments. 

I do feel it's good to have inclusivity. 

But I also feel it's also good to have male only and female only establishments. 

Not everything has to be all inclusive imo.

[Lanterne Rouge]

22 hours ago, Three Lions said:

massively cheaper on the train with british rail and no having to pay in advance couple of quid return to london. Saw City at Southend 3000 maybe there on on a friday stayed over (Cooper sacked) train to London with 20+ City fans to see Arsenal Forest pay on the gate league cup semi on  saturday for £1 on the North Bank and 50000 + crowd. Barely afford a drink now. 

We did exactly the same thing except we drove up and kipped in the car at South Mimms services! I think the Arsenal game was the FA Cup 4th or 5th round though - Forest won 2-0 with Paul Wilkinson getting both IIRC.

[eardun]

22 hours ago, Three Lions said:

massively cheaper on the train with british rail and no having to pay in advance couple of quid return to london. Saw City at Southend 3000 maybe there on on a friday stayed over (Cooper sacked) train to London with 20+ City fans to see Arsenal Forest pay on the gate league cup semi on  saturday for £1 on the North Bank and 50000 + crowd. Barely afford a drink now. 

As an aside, although I loved Terry Cooper, our performance at that Southend match (Friday 11 March 1988) was dire. I was at university in Essex and ‘treated’ my girlfriend (now wife) to her first match! 

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

On 24/03/2024 at 20:05, Three Lions said:

massively cheaper on the train with british rail and no having to pay in advance couple of quid return to london. Saw City at Southend 3000 maybe there on on a friday stayed over (Cooper sacked) train to London with 20+ City fans to see Arsenal Forest pay on the gate league cup semi on  saturday for £1 on the North Bank and 50000 + crowd. Barely afford a drink now. 

We used to cut the tokens out of Persil packets in the early 80s. Think it was 40% off? Went to quite a few aways by train, in Div4 promotion season.