Sunderland away match thread

[Alessandro]

51 minutes ago, phantom said:

Thank you, you have confirmed that nobody actually said anything about guaranteeing top 6 etc, just that we want to get promoted this year

Perhaps people can stop using that line now as it is proven to be incorrect?

Certainly not the first City Manager in recent times that have been expected to cut costs etc and stay in the league

Yes there is no direct “top 6” quote (although to all but the most belligerent, top 6 is implied in the word promotion) - actually I think what they said was worse - “promotion” specifically mentioned on numerous occasions.

So note for everyone on OTIB - yes the club didn’t want Manning to simply get us into the top 6 - they wanted PROMOTION.

Just for future yard stick reference in discussions regarding his performance.
 

Happy for mods to pin this comment to avoid future confusion. 

Edited April 8 by Alessandro

[Sir Geoff]

6 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

Yes there is no direct “top 6” quote (although to all but the most belligerent, top 6 is implied in the word promotion) - actually I think what they said was worse - “promotion” specifically mentioned on numerous occasions.

So note for everyone on OTIB - yes the club didn’t want Manning to simply get us into the top 6 - they wanted PROMOTION.

Just for future yard stick reference in discussions regarding his performance.
 

Happy for mods to pin this comment to avoid future confusion. 

"Top 10 budget, top end squad." As we were 8th a week or so before the sacking no one saw top end as meaning finishing 7th.

[Davefevs]

16 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

Yes there is no direct “top 6” quote (although to all but the most belligerent, top 6 is implied in the word promotion) - actually I think what they said was worse - “promotion” specifically mentioned on numerous occasions.

So note for everyone on OTIB - yes the club didn’t want Manning to simply get us into the top 6 - they wanted PROMOTION.

Just for future yard stick reference in discussions regarding his performance.
 

Happy for mods to pin this comment to avoid future confusion. 

Yep, PROMOTION used (undeniable), not Top6, although I think most of us would’ve been delighted to just be targeting the Playoffs (Top6).  In fact I think most of us felt a bloody good attempt and not reaching the playoffs would’ve been a good, progressive season.

Instead, we slipped out of the “genuine mix” a while back.  Recent results have got us back to mid-table, but still 2 more defeats than wins from the point of taking over.  Approaching parity of results, if you’re being slightly generous, imho.  But underlying numbers are still trending the wrong way.

[AshtonGreat]

2 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

Because Liam's performance has also been nowhere near what the suits expected Nige to deliver it is causing quite a few who supported Nige's sacking to pretend things were not said which are obviously a complete embarrassment in hindsight and were called out as such at the time by the many..............

 

Two and a bit years, the majority of his tenure, not just a couple of months "at the beginning". Nothing like minimisation................

Where are you getting that timeline from?

[phantom]

1 hour ago, Alessandro said:

Yes there is no direct “top 6” quote (although to all but the most belligerent, top 6 is implied in the word promotion) - actually I think what they said was worse - “promotion” specifically mentioned on numerous occasions.

So note for everyone on OTIB - yes the club didn’t want Manning to simply get us into the top 6 - they wanted PROMOTION.

Just for future yard stick reference in discussions regarding his performance.
 

Happy for mods to pin this comment to avoid future confusion. 

'Thank you for clarifying that they said they wanted promotion

There was clearly NO promise of this etc, just another yard stick to try and berate certain people within the club

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, PROMOTION used (undeniable), not Top6, although I think most of us would’ve been delighted to just be targeting the Playoffs (Top6).  In fact I think most of us felt a bloody good attempt and not reaching the playoffs would’ve been a good, progressive season.

Instead, we slipped out of the “genuine mix” a while back.  Recent results have got us back to mid-table, but still 2 more defeats than wins from the point of taking over.  Approaching parity of results, if you’re being slightly generous, imho.  But underlying numbers are still trending the wrong way.

I guess it is still Pearson's squad which doesn't help

[Ashtongreight]

15 hours ago, BCFC31 said:

Then our recruitment team know what to do get him in asap as from what I saw he definitely isn't a dud 

I’m sure Preston fans said the same about HNM

[Numero Uno]

1 hour ago, AshtonGreat said:

Where are you getting that timeline from?

Quite simple, it's the timeline that we had significant FFFP issues. It was widely recognised by almost all on here that it wasn't until the end of last season that we had navigated through FFFP and we could relax a bit.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, phantom said:

'Thank you for clarifying that they said they wanted promotion

There was clearly NO promise of this etc, just another yard stick to try and berate certain people within the club

I guess it is still Pearson's squad which doesn't help

No, it’s a squad built on an agreed club strategy / profile, which Tinnion said:

”we’ve got a squad built for the way we want to play”

”best group in a long time”

”we’ve invested well….2 players in every position”

”we were very happy with Summer (23) recruitment”

”we will back up injuries with academy players…lots of young players coming into the team”

”we are recruiting into a way of playing…easier…narrows down the ones we want”

Its not Pearson’s squad or Liam Manning’s squad, it’s Bristol City’s squad.

[Fontaineofallknowledge]

21 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

No, it’s a squad built on an agreed club strategy / profile, which Tinnion said:

”we’ve got a squad built for the way we want to play”

”best group in a long time”

”we’ve invested well….2 players in every position”

”we were very happy with Summer (23) recruitment”

”we will back up injuries with academy players…lots of young players coming into the team”

”we are recruiting into a way of playing…easier…narrows down the ones we want”

Its not Pearson’s squad or Liam Manning’s squad, it’s Bristol City’s squad.

But do you think manning would have signed off on signing players that can't handle the ball? Tanner, mccrorrie and knight for example feel very much like Pearson signings!

Also the way we want to play has changed from counter attacking to sustained attacks with pretty patterns-so what you are saying can't be correct!

Edited April 8 by Fontaineofallknowledge

[Kibs]

The use of Top 6 / Promotion quotes do crack me up.

If JL/BT told you to jump off a cliff because it’s good for your health, would you do it? Or would you use your brain and reach your own conclusion? 

Our squad is weaker this season than last season IMO, certainly not stronger!

Alex Scott was never adequately replaced, Antoine Semenyo was never adequately replaced - why on earth anyone feels we should even be competing for a Top 6 spot, regardless of the manager……I just cannot subscribe to that view.  

I could just never see where the creativity and goals would come from.

Had NP been given the opportunity to use the Alex Scott money, I think we could potentially have had a bit of a go, but the second that was denied, I could never see us being anything more than mid-table. 

[Davefevs]

24 minutes ago, Fontaineofallknowledge said:

But do you think manning would have signed off on signing players that can't handle the ball? Tanner, mccrorrie and knight for example feel very much like Pearson signings!

Also the way we want to play has changed from counter attacking to sustained attacks with pretty patterns-so what you are saying can't be correct!

I think what it highlights is a potentially a big disconnect between BT and LM in terms of understand what they truly wanted, what they truly thought they were getting, and what they actually got.

Unless you use bespoke examples of James and King, or Twine for Manning, then recruitment isn’t “Pearson” or “Manning” it’s a process / collective based on what’s needed and when against a profile / strategy.  It’s just an easy excuse to say they’re x’s players, or they’re not y’s players.

As for “sustained attacks and pretty patterns”, there’s been very little evidence of such.

All I did was quote Brian Tinnion.  So it’s not me you need to accuse of being incorrect.

But if you are seeing those sustained attack and pretty patterns, then it proves he doesn’t need “his players”.

So which is it?

 

[Sleepy1968]

45 minutes ago, Fontaineofallknowledge said:

Also the way we want to play has changed from counter attacking to sustained attacks with pretty patterns-so what you are saying can't be correct!

We give the ball away to much for me to even think we have 'sustained attacks'. And that sounds like no attack at all really as we rarely threaten the opposition goal. We still look better when we are allowed (and are playing well enough) to counter.

[Peter O Hanraha-hanrahan]

5 hours ago, phantom said:

Thank you, you have confirmed that nobody actually said anything about guaranteeing top 6 etc, just that we want to get promoted this year

Perhaps people can stop using that line now as it is proven to be incorrect?

Ok, so if people stop saying “top 6” and change it to “top end of the Championship” (which was a term used for where they expected us to be with our squad), would that be acceptable?

[Superjack]

On 06/04/2024 at 21:22, phantom said:

Pretty much where we have been for years and probably will stay for a definite near future 

It's amazing how quickly others forget this 

Glad you are confident about that.

[Superjack]

2 hours ago, phantom said:

I guess it is still Pearson's squad which doesn't help

I don't know how you can guess that it is Pearson's squad when he was denied the money to complete it. 

Money that I will bet you a pound to a penny will be thrown at Manning when things start to go tits up.

[BCFC31]

8 hours ago, Unan said:

I bet Palace fans said the same thing about O’Dowda, Watford about Freddie Hinds etc 

O'dowda didn't go to crystal Palace?  and freddie also never played for watford..... mate are you alright or what

Edited April 8 by BCFC31

[AshtonGreat]

3 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

Quite simple, it's the timeline that we had significant FFFP issues. It was widely recognised by almost all on here that it wasn't until the end of last season that we had navigated through FFFP and we could relax a bit.

Pearson still had a pretty good squad to work with last season

[Kibs]

4 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

Pearson still had a pretty good squad to work with last season

It’s an interesting comparison isn’t it 

[Superjack]

5 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

Pearson still had a pretty good squad to work with last season

And he was working well with it. 

 

[AshtonGreat]

4 minutes ago, Superjack said:

And he was working well with it. 

 

Yeah not bad

[mozo]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I think what it highlights is a potentially a big disconnect between BT and LM in terms of understand what they truly wanted, what they truly thought they were getting, and what they actually got.

Unless you use bespoke examples of James and King, or Twine for Manning, then recruitment isn’t “Pearson” or “Manning” it’s a process / collective based on what’s needed and when against a profile / strategy.  It’s just an easy excuse to say they’re x’s players, or they’re not y’s players.

As for “sustained attacks and pretty patterns”, there’s been very little evidence of such.

All I did was quote Brian Tinnion.  So it’s not me you need to accuse of being incorrect.

But if you are seeing those sustained attack and pretty patterns, then it proves he doesn’t need “his players”.

So which is it?

 

The truth is, we've seen sustained attack and pretty patterns at times in spells but not enough.

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, mozo said:

The truth is, we've seen sustained attack and pretty patterns at times in spells but not enough.

That’s a contradiction (oxymoron?).

(no comment offered on “the truth is”)

Edited April 8 by Davefevs

[mozo]

18 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

That’s a contradiction (oxymoron?).

(no comment offered on “the truth is”)

It's not an oxymoron, because it's impossible to sustain an attack for a whole game! 

Sustained attacks always come in spells!

[Unan]

6 hours ago, BCFC31 said:

O'dowda didn't go to crystal Palace?  and freddie also never played for watford..... mate are you alright or what

You might be a little slow here sir; you made a point about the Sunderland player being very good based off of 60 minutes game time. I tried to highlight O’Dowdas good goal (and game) against Palace; and similar for Hines/Watford to showcase that one swallow doesn’t make a summer, aka one good performance doesn’t make a player. Apologies if I articulated my thoughts poorly.

Edited April 8 by Unan

[Unan]

.

Edited April 8 by Unan

[Sir Geoff]

8 hours ago, Unan said:

You might be a little slow here sir; you made a point about the Sunderland player being very good based off of 60 minutes game time. I tried to highlight O’Dowdas good goal (and game) against Palace; and similar for Hines/Watford to showcase that one swallow doesn’t make a summer, aka one good performance doesn’t make a player. Apologies if I articulated my thoughts poorly.

O Dowdas good goal and performance was away at Norwich unless he had 2 good games.

[Alessandro]

21 hours ago, Kibs said:

The use of Top 6 / Promotion quotes do crack me up.

If JL/BT told you to jump off a cliff because it’s good for your health, would you do it? Or would you use your brain and reach your own conclusion? 

Our squad is weaker this season than last season IMO, certainly not stronger!

Alex Scott was never adequately replaced, Antoine Semenyo was never adequately replaced - why on earth anyone feels we should even be competing for a Top 6 spot, regardless of the manager……I just cannot subscribe to that view.  

I could just never see where the creativity and goals would come from.

Had NP been given the opportunity to use the Alex Scott money, I think we could potentially have had a bit of a go, but the second that was denied, I could never see us being anything more than mid-table. 

No offence but I don’t think that is good analogy at all.

No one is on here moaning about “Lansdown said we were getting promoted and now we aren’t, I want my promotion they promised”

No one is complaining because we aren’t getting promoted this season. No one is saying that’s what they expected. It’s the club talking about promotion. 99% knew it was unrealistic.

The issue for me is the disconnect between what they say and the reality. Why do they say it?

Does that matter? That’s the whole debate, should they be held accountable for their comments?

I suppose it depends on what you think of their role as stewards of the club? 

Is Bristol City there simply to exist or to genuinely strive to get as far up the pyramid as possible?

I think when the club say one thing and do another they open themselves up to criticism and I think it’s fair for fans to ask those questions about the methodology - especially if the aim is more than simply ‘existing’

 

Edited April 9 by Alessandro

[phantom]

22 hours ago, Superjack said:

I don't know how you can guess that it is Pearson's squad when he was denied the money to complete it. 

Money that I will bet you a pound to a penny will be thrown at Manning when things start to go tits up.

OK, let's put it another way.

How many of the squad we currently had were brought in by Pearson and how many by Manning?

Odd how every other Manager is given a period of X number of transfer windows before it is recognised as being "their squad"

[maxjak]

On 06/04/2024 at 22:58, Ashtongreight said:

Equally it’s not a criticism of Nige either, and as we’ve already established our defensive record was better under NP than it is under LM what was the point of the change? 
 

I get we are where we are,  but as of yet LM hasn’t demonstrated he’s the man to take us forward, not to me at least. 

To be fair...........NP and LM's defensive records are very similar.......it is just scoring goals that is the ongoing problem?

[Superjack]

3 hours ago, phantom said:

OK, let's put it another way.

How many of the squad we currently had were brought in by Pearson and how many by Manning?

Odd how every other Manager is given a period of X number of transfer windows before it is recognised as being "their squad"

Probably because it was stated that Manning was brought in to get more out of the current one.