Academy minutes , the drop off.

[1960maaan]

I don't have a problem with Manning going with the senior players while we were going through a dodgy spell, but we were safe yesterday and the starting XI annoyed me.
Instead of giving Knight-Lebel a start he moved what seemed like half the team around. Sykes hasn't shone at WB and Knight has been better in CMF. It got me thinking about the pathway and the continuation of progressing young players that Tinnion alluded to when LM came in. For one Mebude is looking like a Pathway blocker, but ok , if Manning thought we could grab a gem cheap I'll pass on that one , but how much time has been given to youth this season? We have managed to sign some good young players on reputation , but how long will that continue? 

I have had a quick look , and I will apologise and hold my hands up if I've missed some minutes. I think it breaks down like this . 
Under Pearson something like 240 minutes for academy players in 14 games. And yes some of those were forced on him , Cardiff away being a peak time gave us 113 of those minutes .
Flemmings one game gave us 0 .
The last 28 games have given 26 minutes for the Academy players.

Blackburn 21 minutes for Yeboah and against Blackburn in a game that was over , 5 for Knight-Lebel.

I worry that Manning is shaping up like LJ, would rather change most of the team instead of making one change with a youngster. Tinnion has to take some blame, excluding some for the U18 FA Cup (then not even giving them the best chance by going up the night before, thats another moan) . This should be the perfect time to blood players, they could be needed next year and a few runs this year could help the transition to the first team.
I hope I'm wrong , but it doesn't look great for the young kids ATM.

[Alessandro]

I was very surprised yesterday with the lack of academy player minutes.

Manning’s seeming reluctance to use them is not going to endear him to his bosses IMO.

Again, as with the discussions of ‘footballing style’ - you feel something will need to give here too…

Edited April 14 by Alessandro

[Silvio Dante]

Liams first press conference at Oxford: “You look to academies first, why wouldn’t you”

Liams first press conference here:

”I understand the importance of players to see the pathway, and the most rewarding thing for academy staff is where you see someone make a debut. But also from a pure business perspective you invest huge sums in the academy, why wouldn’t you look there first? That doesn’t mean you take everyone from there but it’s the first place you look…..we’ll definitely look there first then go external after that”

Just leaving those here. And guess how many he brought through at Oxford.

[FNQ]

2 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Liams first press conference at Oxford: “You look to academies first, why wouldn’t you”

Liams first press conference here:

”I understand the importance of players to see the pathway, and the most rewarding thing for academy staff is where you see someone make a debut. But also from a pure business perspective you invest huge sums in the academy, why wouldn’t you look there first? That doesn’t mean you take everyone from there but it’s the first place you look…..we’ll definitely look there first then go external after that”

Just leaving those here. And guess how many he brought through at Oxford.

You’ve got to tell a few white lies these days to get a job…

[glynriley]

8 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Liams first press conference at Oxford: “You look to academies first, why wouldn’t you”

Liams first press conference here:

”I understand the importance of players to see the pathway, and the most rewarding thing for academy staff is where you see someone make a debut. But also from a pure business perspective you invest huge sums in the academy, why wouldn’t you look there first? That doesn’t mean you take everyone from there but it’s the first place you look…..we’ll definitely look there first then go external after that”

Just leaving those here. And guess how many he brought through at Oxford.

[Numero Uno]

7 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Liams first press conference at Oxford: “You look to academies first, why wouldn’t you”

Liams first press conference here:

”I understand the importance of players to see the pathway, and the most rewarding thing for academy staff is where you see someone make a debut. But also from a pure business perspective you invest huge sums in the academy, why wouldn’t you look there first? That doesn’t mean you take everyone from there but it’s the first place you look…..we’ll definitely look there first then go external after that”

Just leaving those here. And guess how many he brought through at Oxford.

It’s the difference between an experienced manager prepared and able to deal with a moaning Senior Player or three in his office and one looking ahead to an important three months next season who cannot afford the seniors to turn on him. Simple as that.

[Davefevs]

OP - firstly we need to qualify academy players, I’m guessing you’re referring to the young ones, and discounting Vyner, Conway, Bell,Pring and O’Leary.  That is fine btw.  Personally I think we are probably gonna have a more fallow period.  Not because of LM per se, but a combo of the next batch not being ready (JKL to one to buck that) and the raised expectations of playing in the first team.

[GrahamC]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

OP - firstly we need to qualify academy players, I’m guessing you’re referring to the young ones, and discounting Vyner, Conway, Bell,Pring and O’Leary.  That is fine btw.  Personally I think we are probably gonna have a more fallow period.  Not because of LM per se, but a combo of the next batch not being ready (JKL to one to buck that) and the raised expectations of playing in the first team.

100%.

It will be very instructive when the full released list is published.

There seems an acceptance that the 21s group includes very few who will make it at Championship level.

Knight-Lebel, Palmer-Houlden & possibly Tommy Backwell are highly likely to be the only ones from that group even given a chance to do so.
 

[1960maaan]

10 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

OP - firstly we need to qualify academy players, I’m guessing you’re referring to the young ones, and discounting Vyner, Conway, Bell,Pring and O’Leary.  That is fine btw.  Personally I think we are probably gonna have a more fallow period.  Not because of LM per se, but a combo of the next batch not being ready (JKL to one to buck that) and the raised expectations of playing in the first team.

OP ? Formal 

Yeah , I don't consider even Bell Academy at this point. Just thinking non first team youngsters.
I've had this conversation a couple of times. Because we have been so good , you are bound to have a dip. Another thing is this U18 Cup focus means those youngsters haven't played up a level which has happened regularly for years. 
I would have liked to see at least JKL get some proper time . Nelson & Meerholz have been on the bench without really looking like getting on , Backwell too . 

Even Mebude , can you really make a call without giving him a chance of at least a half of football ? Possibly , but as he's here, and he was the Managers pick , why not give him a run .

11 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

100%.

It will be very instructive when the full released list is published.

There seems an acceptance that the 21s group includes very few who will make it at Championship level.

Knight-Lebel, Palmer-Houlden & possibly Tommy Backwell are highly likely to be the only ones from that group even given a chance to do so.
 

I imagine the core of U18s will make up a big part of the U21s next year, to allow for new ones coming in or stepping up.

[IAmNick]

I think having Scott, Semenyo, and Conway as youngsters who happened to be ready at roughly the same time has raised expectations to a bit of an unfair level.

As well as Pring, Max, and Vyner having "breakthrough" seasons at a slightly older age but within the same period. It's given the impression we should almost expect one or two a year - that's not going to happen. 

I'd like to see more youngsters but I'm not sure who? JKL is the only one I could legitimately feel a bit disappointed not to see. I thought Yeboah was a fair way off the required standard personally. Bell is injured, and Benarous has a long recovery ahead of him. 

The real test will be in a year or two when that apparently excellent crop start to appear - or if one leaves for a rival without getting much of a look in here. That'd be extremely disappointing.

[Davefevs]

13 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

OP ? Formal 

Was a bit wasnt it, sorry Mike! 

[petehinton]

Also having to post this for people to know, as god forbid our own club update us on our academy lads….

[Silvio Dante]

Related to this subject, but also to Vyner being injured, a titbit from Weston yesterday; Raph Araoye has had his loan spell ended one week early by City.

Possible he’s coming into first team contention in view of the injuries; equally likely that there is an U23s game which if we win we go 6th and are able to have a mass celebration that he’s needed for.

Edit @petehinton - posting the same at the same time

 

Edited April 14 by Silvio Dante

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 hour ago, Alessandro said:

I was very surprised yesterday with the lack of academy player minutes.

Manning’s seeming reluctance to use them is not going to endear him to his bosses IMO.

Again, as with the discussions of ‘footballing style’ - you feel something will need to give here too…

He won't play them because it's all about his own record. 

He tried to play Vyner yesterday by testing him out in training on Friday which then caused a reaction. 

He did that for a nothing game. No chance he bloods academy players. 

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

Liams first press conference at Oxford: “You look to academies first, why wouldn’t you”

Liams first press conference here:

”I understand the importance of players to see the pathway, and the most rewarding thing for academy staff is where you see someone make a debut. But also from a pure business perspective you invest huge sums in the academy, why wouldn’t you look there first? That doesn’t mean you take everyone from there but it’s the first place you look…..we’ll definitely look there first then go external after that”

Just leaving those here. And guess how many he brought through at Oxford.

He basically says what people want to hear in order to get the job. I don't like that. 

[A Horse With No Name]

1 hour ago, FNQ said:

You’ve got to tell a few white lies these days to get a job…

This is all well and good, but what if he has had a look, and decided that none are Championship standard, and maybe never will be? Just a thought. Maybe Scott, Semenyo, Conway and Bell were the last  of that generation. 

Edited April 14 by A Horse With No Name

[ORANGE500]

22 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

This is all well and good, but what if he has had a look, and decided that none are Championship standard, and maybe never will be? Just a thought. Maybe Scott, Semenyo, Conway and Bell were the last  of that generation. 

Some people it seems have continuously got to find new sticks  in which to beat the ownership and Liam Manning with.Would never consider that just perhaps this group has been thoroughly assessed and at present very few if any are of the required standard. Who but those with the same tired agenda could possibly think if City had a brilliant player in the academy he wouldn't be fast tracked  into the first team of course he would..

[phantom]

49 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

He basically says what people want to hear in order to get the job. I don't like that. 

Here we go again, you don't half post such vindictive nonsense. 

You weren't anywhere near any interview and have no knowledge of either what was asked or even answered 

1 hour ago, GrahamC said:

100%.

It will be very instructive when the full released list is published.

There seems an acceptance that the 21s group includes very few who will make it at Championship level.

Knight-Lebel, Palmer-Houlden & possibly Tommy Backwell are highly likely to be the only ones from that group even given a chance to do so.
 

It's been often spoken about that there's very little coming through the U23s at present, and will explain why they've not been bursting into the first team squad 

I'd be very surprised if more than one of those out of contract get kept on 

By the same marker there is real quality in the current U18s set up, so expect a few more to be coming through in the coming years 

[redkev]

I have been chatting to a chap that I deal with through work who is city through and through and watches many of the games u18s u 23s etc and he said that the next batch of youngsters coming through are decent but deffo sees no Scott / semenyo / Kelly / Benarous coming through , last year there were a couple of names he thought would push for first team this year however he said they don’t seem to have kicked on for some reason or another . So as a few others have said perhaps there is a little lull in what’s coming through tbf we have had a decent run 

[phantom]

14 minutes ago, redkev said:

I have been chatting to a chap that I deal with through work who is city through and through and watches many of the games u18s u 23s etc and he said that the next batch of youngsters coming through are decent but deffo sees no Scott / semenyo / Kelly / Benarous coming through , last year there were a couple of names he thought would push for first team this year however he said they don’t seem to have kicked on for some reason or another . So as a few others have said perhaps there is a little lull in what’s coming through tbf we have had a decent run 

The daft thing the higher the first get the better those coming through have to be 

It's possible the standard they're at would have been good enough in the past?? 

[redkev]

I have made this point before the better our first team get the higher the bar becomes for our academy players 

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, phantom said:

The daft thing the higher the first get the better those coming through have to be 

It's possible the standard they're at would have been good enough in the past?? 

The Bobby Reid effect.  Having made his debut in the Champ, he then struggled to keep up with City’s development (winning Lg1 / rise to Champ) for a couple of / few seasons, before eventually he did.

[Alessandro]

27 minutes ago, redkev said:

I have been chatting to a chap that I deal with through work who is city through and through and watches many of the games u18s u 23s etc and he said that the next batch of youngsters coming through are decent but deffo sees no Scott / semenyo / Kelly / Benarous coming through , last year there were a couple of names he thought would push for first team this year however he said they don’t seem to have kicked on for some reason or another . So as a few others have said perhaps there is a little lull in what’s coming through tbf we have had a decent run 

If that’s the case it’s vitally important our recruitment is top notch for the next few years.

If they’re serious about the top 6 we can’t have repeats of last January’s window, for example, IMO. 

Fascinated to see if the wallet opens or not and by how much, in the summer. 

[Lrrr]

Knight-Lebel is the curious one for yesterday that Manning would rather put a RB and make shift RCB in a back three in the middle of the back three over playing an actual centre back there, I'd be getting pretty annoyed by now if I were Knight-Lebel, he's played just 1100 minutes (including U21's) in what's one of the most important years for his development where he's had to sit on the bench for the first team where either Atkinson gets fit in the summer or we probably buy another CB over him. 

Edited April 14 by Lrrr

[redkev]

1 minute ago, Alessandro said:

If that’s the case it’s vitally important our recruitment is top notch for the next few years.

If they’re serious about the top 6 we can’t have repeats of last January’s window, for example, IMO. 

Fascinated to see if the wallet opens or not and by how much, in the summer. 

Our academy without doubt has been pretty successful however from people who no better than me nothing coming through in the next year that is going to improve our first team squad , we have the 3 players Bird , stokes , Murphy in the wings waiting to come in however none are currently playing 2 out with long term injuries and stokes is on the bench more than in Aldershot first 11 , the summer signing need to have proven quality ( no more ones for the future ffs ) we don’t need a lot 3 max in my eyes ,

Alex Scott type player  

Antoine semenyo type player 

perhaps a big number 9 

but they need to be proven 

defensively sound as long as we don’t sell anyone , also manning needs to improve our style of football it simply isnt what the fans want to watch , 

there is deffo a team in there somewhere as results have shown . Just need the added players i identified and a manager with a change of philosophy. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 hour ago, phantom said:

Here we go again, you don't half post such vindictive nonsense. 

You weren't anywhere near any interview and have no knowledge of either what was asked or even answered 

It's been often spoken about that there's very little coming through the U23s at present, and will explain why they've not been bursting into the first team squad 

I'd be very surprised if more than one of those out of contract get kept on 

By the same marker there is real quality in the current U18s set up, so expect a few more to be coming through in the coming years 

Just posting my thoughts Phants. 

In the press conferences and interviews a lot was said about our academy and how Liam had coached in academies and how this made him well suited to the job. 

The post I replied to gave two examples of him speaking about academies in his first press conferences so that very much gives the impression he also said these things in the interview. 

[redkev]

3 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

Knight-Lebel is the curious one for yesterday that Manning would rather put a RB and make shift RCB in a back three in the middle of the back three over playing an actual centre back there, I'd be getting pretty annoyed by now if I were Knight-Lebel, he's played just 1100 minutes (including U21's) in what's one of the most important years for his development where he's had to sit on the bench for the first team where either Atkinson gets fit in the summer or we probably buy another CB over him. 

I understand him not being played yesterday with no Vyner or Dickie alongside him but if manning isn’t going to play him get him either out on loan or back in the unders to get him game time and rotate the unders to spend time on the bench 

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

Knight-Lebel is the curious one for yesterday that Manning would rather put a RB and make shift RCB in a back three in the middle of the back three over playing an actual centre back there, I'd be getting pretty annoyed by now if I were Knight-Lebel, he's played just 1100 minutes (including U21's) in what's one of the most important years for his development where he's had to sit on the bench for the first team where either Atkinson gets fit in the summer or we probably buy another CB over him. 

Character building

As for the back-3 yesterday, McCrorie has played loads at CB north of the border, inc left side in a 2.  I accept Tanner was really out of position, but the other two weren’t.

[redkev]

Whilst on the subject of academy players coming through has anyone watched enough of palmer Holden to think he would be for a first team squad place next season 

[mozo]

4 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

I don't have a problem with Manning going with the senior players while we were going through a dodgy spell, but we were safe yesterday and the starting XI annoyed me.
Instead of giving Knight-Lebel a start he moved what seemed like half the team around. Sykes hasn't shone at WB and Knight has been better in CMF. It got me thinking about the pathway and the continuation of progressing young players that Tinnion alluded to when LM came in. For one Mebude is looking like a Pathway blocker, but ok , if Manning thought we could grab a gem cheap I'll pass on that one , but how much time has been given to youth this season? We have managed to sign some good young players on reputation , but how long will that continue? 

I have had a quick look , and I will apologise and hold my hands up if I've missed some minutes. I think it breaks down like this . 
Under Pearson something like 240 minutes for academy players in 14 games. And yes some of those were forced on him , Cardiff away being a peak time gave us 113 of those minutes .
Flemmings one game gave us 0 .
The last 28 games have given 26 minutes for the Academy players.

Blackburn 21 minutes for Yeboah and against Blackburn in a game that was over , 5 for Knight-Lebel.

I worry that Manning is shaping up like LJ, would rather change most of the team instead of making one change with a youngster. Tinnion has to take some blame, excluding some for the U18 FA Cup (then not even giving them the best chance by going up the night before, thats another moan) . This should be the perfect time to blood players, they could be needed next year and a few runs this year could help the transition to the first team.
I hope I'm wrong , but it doesn't look great for the young kids ATM.

I do agree, and I personally would sacrifice results at this point. 

The only counter argument I would make is... how do you think senior players will feel being left out, particularly if they're players like McCrorie, Roberts and Tamner who have had to spend time on the bench or injured already this season and are desperate for gametime for their own needs.

I personally would have benched Pring and played JKL. 

[redkev]

2 minutes ago, mozo said:

I do agree, and I personally would sacrifice results at this point. 

The only counter argument I would make is... how do you think senior players will feel being left out, particularly if they're players like McCrorie, Roberts and Tamner who have had to spend time on the bench or injured already this season and are desperate for gametime for their own needs.

I personally would have benched Pring and played JKL. 

I agree , also think pring ( apart from a few games ) has been a bit of a dissapointment this season compared with last season where admittedly he was excellent