Academy minutes , the drop off.

[Davefevs]

12 minutes ago, redkev said:

Whilst on the subject of academy players coming through has anyone watched enough of palmer Holden to think he would be for a first team squad place next season 

He’s got a big summer ahead.  He will get his chance to be part of the first team squad over preseason and see how he does.  He is a hard runner, needs to improve his link up play, but playing with better players in our system may help that by default, rather than a very direct Newport side.

[mozo]

6 minutes ago, redkev said:

I agree , also think pring ( apart from a few games ) has been a bit of a dissapointment this season compared with last season where admittedly he was excellent 

Yeah totally. He was in 'destined for the Premier League' territory last season and looks much more like he's at his level this season, under both managers.

[Lrrr]

18 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Character building

As for the back-3 yesterday, McCrorie has played loads at CB north of the border, inc left side in a 2.  I accept Tanner was really out of position, but the other two weren’t.

That would be why I only mentioned Tanner  the 'and make shift RCB' was still referring to him 

[Lrrr]

21 minutes ago, redkev said:

I understand him not being played yesterday with no Vyner or Dickie alongside him but if manning isn’t going to play him get him either out on loan or back in the unders to get him game time and rotate the unders to spend time on the bench 

He's experienced enough at the levels below to know his ins and outs, he also would have had 2 senior enough players alongside him as well as part of a back three, factor with little riding on the result it was the pefect time to try him again

[Davefevs]

Just now, Lrrr said:

He's experienced enough at the levels below to know his ins and outs, he also would have had 2 senior enough players alongside him as well as part of a back three, factor with little riding on the result it was the pefect time to try him again

Ah, you mentioned RB and RCB so assumed you were referring to separate players.  Be clearer next time please!

[Lrrr]

Just now, Davefevs said:

Ah, you mentioned RB and RCB so assumed you were referring to separate players.  Be clearer next time please!

No 

[Lrrr]

20 minutes ago, redkev said:

Whilst on the subject of academy players coming through has anyone watched enough of palmer Holden to think he would be for a first team squad place next season 

Seb's problem will be the intensity of the Championship vs League Two and bringing himself up to the level physically, his physical data vs Wells & Conway is still some way short in most areas except the distance they all cover when sprinting per 90 minutes played, things like total distance & running at say 70% to 80% he's still some way short of the level. Could open him up as an option off the bench if deemed good enough but then its a balance of is his development best served doing that or on loan in say League One or the SPL as a bridge loan for him to get closer. 

[Northern Red]

I believe Palmer-Houlden has been training at least one day a week with our first team when circumstances allow (as has Stokes), so you'd assume the intention is for him to be around for preseason at least to see if he can step up straight away. Might be that he plays a similar role to that of Conway a couple of seasons ago where he's on the bench every week and learning off the others, whilst getting as many minutes as he can.

[And Its Smith]

2 hours ago, Lrrr said:

Seb's problem will be the intensity of the Championship vs League Two and bringing himself up to the level physically, his physical data vs Wells & Conway is still some way short in most areas except the distance they all cover when sprinting per 90 minutes played, things like total distance & running at say 70% to 80% he's still some way short of the level. Could open him up as an option off the bench if deemed good enough but then its a balance of is his development best served doing that or on loan in say League One or the SPL as a bridge loan for him to get closer. 

Seb is working privately with his own coaching team and has been for over 2 years now. He is getting bigger for next season but they are very careful not to go too far and impact his sharpness. He’s pretty strong already to be fair 

[Galley is our king]

7 hours ago, FNQ said:

You’ve got to tell a few white lies these days to get a job…

Also a few blatant lies to explain why we lost the last incumbent....

[1960maaan]

23 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

Seb is working privately with his own coaching team and has been for over 2 years now. He is getting bigger for next season but they are very careful not to go too far and impact his sharpness. He’s pretty strong already to be fair 

Funny you should post that, I was thinking back to Bobby Reid and the difference his private training made to him. It would be great for SPH to earn the first team squad for next year.

[Street red]

7 hours ago, FNQ said:

You’ve got to tell a few white lies these days to get a job…

Don't like the bloke he's definitely a bluffer unfortunately I don't think I'm going to change my mind.

[phantom]

3 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Just posting my thoughts Phants. 

In the press conferences and interviews a lot was said about our academy and how Liam had coached in academies and how this made him well suited to the job. 

The post I replied to gave two examples of him speaking about academies in his first press conferences so that very much gives the impression he also said these things in the interview. 

Thank you for clarifying

[Silvio Dante]

5 hours ago, ORANGE500 said:

Some people it seems have continuously got to find new sticks  in which to beat the ownership and Liam Manning with.Would never consider that just perhaps this group has been thoroughly assessed and at present very few if any are of the required standard. Who but those with the same tired agenda could possibly think if City had a brilliant player in the academy he wouldn't be fast tracked  into the first team of course he would..

Just to say that I do think this is a very fair point - and I agree that you don’t give “minutes for minutes sake” - the players have to be the required standard.

The counterpoint is twofold - he had the opportunity to play Jamie KL yesterday and didn’t despite him being around the first team squad regularly, but probably more pertinently over 3 years of management now he hasn’t brought one academy player through. It’s possible that MK Dons, Oxford and ourselves all don’t have any academy products of the required standard, but at some point that record goes on the coach and his willingness/ability to bring through academy players as opposed to the quality of the academy players themselves. And three years, across multiple clubs, is a pretty strong sample size overall.

[mozo]

25 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Just to say that I do think this is a very fair point - and I agree that you don’t give “minutes for minutes sake” - the players have to be the required standard.

The counterpoint is twofold - he had the opportunity to play Jamie KL yesterday and didn’t despite him being around the first team squad regularly, but probably more pertinently over 3 years of management now he hasn’t brought one academy player through. It’s possible that MK Dons, Oxford and ourselves all don’t have any academy products of the required standard, but at some point that record goes on the coach and his willingness/ability to bring through academy players as opposed to the quality of the academy players themselves. And three years, across multiple clubs, is a pretty strong sample size overall.

The thing that always perplexes me though is, we have Tinnion who is Mr Pathway, and there's a perception out there that Manning is here to be Tinnion's henchman. So, does Manning have the authority to snub the pathway? Surely it's an ironclad part of his remit?

[Davefevs]

15 minutes ago, mozo said:

The thing that always perplexes me though is, we have Tinnion who is Mr Pathway, and there's a perception out there that Manning is here to be Tinnion's henchman. So, does Manning have the authority to snub the pathway? Surely it's an ironclad part of his remit?

According to Brian, LM picks the team, decides the tactics….as it should be imho.

It probably makes a bit of a mockery of manager v head coach role titles too, both pick the team, decide the tactics.  This is not a discussion about Nige’s role v Liam’s role.

[Superjack]

8 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

Liams first press conference at Oxford: “You look to academies first, why wouldn’t you”

Liams first press conference here:

”I understand the importance of players to see the pathway, and the most rewarding thing for academy staff is where you see someone make a debut. But also from a pure business perspective you invest huge sums in the academy, why wouldn’t you look there first? That doesn’t mean you take everyone from there but it’s the first place you look…..we’ll definitely look there first then go external after that”

Just leaving those here. And guess how many he brought through at Oxford.

Smacks to me of someone that knows that he doesn't have what it takes to nurture them. Which is fair enough from his point of view. 

But then why come out with shite like the above?

And it doesn't fit with this club's professed agenda. 

Of course, they could always force him to blood the youngsters and make him do what his predecessor had to. 

They ****ing won't though.

[Leabrook]

2 minutes ago, Superjack said:

Smacks to me of someone that knows that he doesn't have what it takes to nurture them. Which is fair enough from his point of view. 

But then why come out with shite like the above?

And it doesn't fit with this club's professed agenda. 

Of course, they could always force him to blood the youngsters and make him do what his predecessor had to. 

They ****ing won't though.

Maybe he looked there first 

[Superjack]

Just now, Leabrook said:

Maybe he looked there first 

So nobody worth giving a chance at either Oxford or here, despite looking. 

Okay then.

[Leabrook]

6 minutes ago, Superjack said:

So nobody worth giving a chance at either Oxford or here, despite looking. 

Okay then.

Who the **** knows to be honest. I’m just bored of all the sticks being used to beat him with.  I’d have sacked him before this run but now it’s happened let’s just get behind him and see what happens 

[Silvio Dante]

41 minutes ago, mozo said:

The thing that always perplexes me though is, we have Tinnion who is Mr Pathway, and there's a perception out there that Manning is here to be Tinnion's henchman. So, does Manning have the authority to snub the pathway? Surely it's an ironclad part of his remit?

One thing I’ve been consistent on - in support of Liam - is that he’s not Tinnions puppet. I don’t think you make the hard nosed moves he has without pure single mindedness, and his time with us has proven he feels his way is the right way. If that includes not playing academy he sure as hell won’t do it.
 

I think Tinnion probably thought a young coach would be malleable. I don’t think that’s the case here.

[redsquirrel]

5 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

One thing I’ve been consistent on - in support of Liam - is that he’s not Tinnions puppet. I don’t think you make the hard nosed moves he has without pure single mindedness, and his time with us has proven he feels his way is the right way. If that includes not playing academy he sure as hell won’t do it.
 

I think Tinnion probably thought a young coach would be malleable. I don’t think that’s the case here.

do you mean like.........

bt.' liam,i think you should do it like this.'

liam. (rolling around laughing) 'brian,if i do it like that, we will lose 7-0'

bt. 'how do you know that?'

liam. 'i saw you do it once'

bt struts off sulking because he knows hes lost that one

 

[Superjack]

23 minutes ago, Leabrook said:

Who the **** knows to be honest. I’m just bored of all the sticks being used to beat him with.  I’d have sacked him before this run but now it’s happened let’s just get behind him and see what happens 

Fair enough. 

I don't have much faith in him, as I am sure you can tell, but as I have stated it's the hierarchy that my problem is with. 

I genuinely hope that Manning proves me wrong. And that is possible. 

I can't say the same for the ownership.

[red panda]

36 minutes ago, Superjack said:

So nobody worth giving a chance at either Oxford or here, despite looking. 

Okay then.

Perhaps you'd be kind enough to tell us who you think he should have brought though (or for that matter why Pearson didn't bring anyone through himself during the first part of this season, apart from a few sub appearances for Yeboah).

Or maybe, just maybe, there might be something in the simple explanation that others have put forward but you seem unwilling to accept?

[Superjack]

1 minute ago, red panda said:

Perhaps you'd be kind enough to tell us who you think he should have brought though (or for that matter why Pearson didn't bring anyone through himself during the first part of this season, apart from a few sub appearances for Yeboah).

Or maybe, just maybe, there might be something in the simple explanation that others have put forward but you seem unwilling to accept?

I'm not talking about the first part of the season. I'm talking about now when our games are 'dead rubbers'.

And I am also talking about his non-existent record of blooding youth in his career to date. 

You're welcome.

[Back of the Dolman]

5 hours ago, mozo said:

I do agree, and I personally would sacrifice results at this point. 

The only counter argument I would make is... how do you think senior players will feel being left out, particularly if they're players like McCrorie, Roberts and Tamner who have had to spend time on the bench or injured already this season and are desperate for gametime for their own needs.

I personally would have benched Pring and played JKL. 

I don’t think you’ll find LM is willing to sacrifice results, especially with the fan base feeling about him.

As for senior players not liking a youngster being picked ahead of them, I’d say suck it up.

They’re all part of the squad and they don’t have a god given right to be in the first 11

[mozo]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

According to Brian, LM picks the team, decides the tactics….as it should be imho.

It probably makes a bit of a mockery of manager v head coach role titles too, both pick the team, decide the tactics.  This is not a discussion about Nige’s role v Liam’s role.

 

43 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

One thing I’ve been consistent on - in support of Liam - is that he’s not Tinnions puppet. I don’t think you make the hard nosed moves he has without pure single mindedness, and his time with us has proven he feels his way is the right way. If that includes not playing academy he sure as hell won’t do it.
 

I think Tinnion probably thought a young coach would be malleable. I don’t think that’s the case here.

So we don't think Tinnion will try to assert authority if LM doesn't respect the pathway?

[Back of the Dolman]

5 hours ago, redkev said:

I agree , also think pring ( apart from a few games ) has been a bit of a dissapointment this season compared with last season where admittedly he was excellent 

He’s reportedly carrying an injury though, which LM said he’d have to learn to manage.

Pring has taken a lot of knocks this season and was limping heavily at the end of the Blackburn game.

He covers a hell of a lot of ground and gets through plenty of work

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, mozo said:

 

So we don't think Tinnion will try to assert authority if LM doesn't respect the pathway?

I probably think differently to @Silvio Dante.

As it stands I don’t think he is disrespecting the pathway, so there’s nothing to assert.  You’ll see my comments pre-match yesterday re JKL, I don’t think it was right to start him yesterday.  I’d have given him more minutes on Wednesday, but we are talking 5-10 mins more.

I think that the hierarchy put pressure on him pre-Easter and now he’s trying to secure results.  So in some ways they are culpable / responsible.

+++++

@red panda don’t forget debut for Joseph James (started) and JKL (sub in) as well as Yeboah’s minutes.

[Silvio Dante]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I probably think differently to @Silvio Dante.

As it stands I don’t think he is disrespecting the pathway, so there’s nothing to assert.  You’ll see my comments pre-match yesterday re JKL, I don’t think it was right to start him yesterday.  I’d have given him more minutes on Wednesday, but we are talking 5-10 mins more.

I think that the hierarchy put pressure on him pre-Easter and now he’s trying to secure results.  So in some ways they are culpable / responsible.

+++++

@red panda don’t forget debut for Joseph James (started) and JKL (sub in) as well as Yeboah’s minutes.

You can’t think differently, you have to defend me no matter what, remember??

My take is that three things can be true:

- Liam is his own man

- We don’t have a “golden generation” waiting and there aren’t reams of people ready to make the first team

- Even if there were, based on prior history and here (and Fevs knows I disagree with him on the JKL decision), Liam is reluctant to play them.

I’m not saying it’s right or wrong in terms of immediate results, but I do see from evidence to date (both elsewhere and here), Liam has a reticence to play youth. Debate/discuss how that fits with the clubs stated philosophy and if he’s a blagger based on the presser quotes