Academy

[bs3]

Lets get rid of this waste of money. Why, well it just produce average 2nd div players not capable of winning promotion.

All the talented 13/14 year olds will get signed up by the bigger clubs and we can get the pick of the dross, so whats the point . You can't make a silk pures from a sow ear.

And if you try defending the academy by pointing out to me that a lot of the 1st team squad is from the academy , well that just gives more weight to my argument.

[Godzilla]

The academy is the way forward for the club, as it does/will produce talent.

It's probably more accurate to argue that what's the point in having an academy when the first team manager refuses to give new blood a realistic chance of making an impact.

It begs the question, if Danny Wilson was manager of Everton, would Wayne Rooney be playing for England?

[Guest Orj]

I'd like to defend the academy by saying that we are lumbered with a gutless manager. We have just lost a player from the academy for next to nothing to a club sitting at 4th spot in the Premiership, he obviously had something about him. In Lita, I belive we have something very special waiting to burst onto the scene as soon as the manager finds some bottle and drops his lovechild. Coles is a player of genuine quality, as is Hill. The academy is paying off and will continue to do so. Shame we don't have someone like Dario Gradi as manager.

[bs3]

I'd like to defend the academy by saying that we are lumbered with a gutless manager. We have just lost a player from the academy for next to nothing to a club sitting at 4th spot in the Premiership, he obviously had something about him. In Lita, I belive we have something very special waiting to burst onto the scene as soon as the manager finds some bottle and drops his lovechild. Coles is a player of genuine quality, as is Hill. The academy is paying off and will continue to do so. Shame we don't have someone like Dario Gradi as manager.

You made a couple of good points but you must be of your trolley if you think Matt Hill is a player of genuine quality. Coles is a decent enough player but genuine quality no.

[A Horse With No Name]

I posted a thread similar to yours a few weeks ago and got slaughtered for it. I totally agree with you bs3 but the majority won't.

[Mr Mosquito]

I agree with bs3 and redsince70

However, as has been stated above, Danny Wilson is not an academy orientated manager and so we may never really know what could have been made of the academy had Peter Taylor and not Wilson been manager for the past 4 seasons.

I think this is another argument for getting a fresh manager in to give an opinion as to whether our academy is worth funding. Changes do need to be made but starting with a change of manager first and foremost. Dario Grady, Sam Allardice - if only

[cheese]

I agree with bs3 and redsince70

I think this is another argument for getting a fresh manager in to give an opinion as to whether our academy is worth funding. Changes do need to be made but starting with a change of manager first and foremost. Dario Grady, Sam Allardice - if only 

Where's your evidence to support that RG? I've seen Lita play a few times and while he's going to be good - he's hardly set the world alight. He's still a bit lightweight for the second division - and he knows it.

So who else from the academy should be playing that isn't? Woodman? Oops, he does. Fortune? Oops - he gets the odd game but is he really better than what we have at the back? C'mon - name names, tell us who you'd play and who they would replace!

C

[Swindon Hater]

I agree the academy is a waste of money, look at the teams doing well, they've all done it through buying players in present days, like Cardiff City, Wigan Athletic, Chelsea, Arsenal, Hull City, I could go on!

The academy is pretty good for bringing up average Division 2 players but we need some players above this level to take us further.

[cheese]

I agree the academy is a waste of money, look at the teams doing well, they've all done it through buying players in present days, like Cardiff City, Wigan Athletic, Chelsea, Arsenal, Hull City, I could go on!

The academy is pretty good for bringing up average Division 2 players but we need some players above this level to take us further.

Hmm, Man Utd - they don't have an academy do they?? Who'd they buy Beckham, Scholes, Butt, the Nevilles etc from? Chelsea have one. Arsenal have one. Liverpool have one. Crewe have one. Hmm, maybe they're all wrong?

C

[Mr Mosquito]

Reply to cheese

"C'mon - name names, tell us who you'd play and who they would replace!"

I can't name any names - and that's my point !!!!

Had Peter Taylor and not Danny Wilson been appointed manager 3 years ago then we may now be looking at a BCFC academy packed with potential England talent. Peter Taylor was a very successful England youth coach - remember? Perhaps that's why Bobby Zamora ended up playing for him at Brighton and not us?

[Swindon Hater]

Yeah Arsenal have alot of youngsters playing in there side don't they! Only Ashley Cole I can think of who has come through and played consistently.

Chelsea - Bought loads of players in and are selling all their youngsters like Leon Knight off.

Liverpool - I didn't say them did I? They're 9th in the Prem anyway and that shows they need to bring in quality foreigners to help them, the academy ain't good enough!

Crewe have done well with their youngesters but aren't doing anyway near as well as teams like Cardiff, Wigan etc. wo have overtaken them in the football ladder by spasling the cash on good players.

[openEnd]

Where's your evidence to support that RG?  I've seen Lita play a few times and while he's going to be good - he's hardly set the world alight.  He's still a bit lightweight for the second division - and he knows it.

So who else from the academy should be playing that isn't?  Woodman?  Oops, he does.  Fortune?  Oops - he gets the odd game but is he really better than what we have at the back?  C'mon - name names, tell us who you'd play and who they would replace!

C

OK Cheese, but this thread started I think as an 'Academy, Yes or No' type thread. Your comments would add weight to the 'S#### the Academy' camp, because you suggest there aren't any young starlets coming through?

I'm not entirely sure if a Div2 club needs an Academy myself. If we didn't have one though where would Danny Coles be now? playing for the Gas I bet.

[cheese]

Yeah Arsenal have alot of youngsters playing in there side don't they! Only Ashley Cole I can think of who has come through and played consistently.

Chelsea - Bought loads of players in and are selling all their youngsters like Leon Knight off.

Liverpool - I didn't say them did I? They're 9th in the Prem anyway and that shows they need to bring in quality foreigners to help them, the academy ain't good enough!

Crewe have done well with their youngesters but aren't doing anyway near as well as teams like Cardiff, Wigan etc. wo have overtaken them in the football ladder by spasling the cash on good players.

You can't exclude some clubs academy just because it doesn't fit with your view. Liverpools best players come from their academy - Owen, Gerrard, Carragher. And how long do you think Wigan and Cardiff will last once their sugar daddies pull the plug? And as for Arsenal - they have quite a few good young players coming through, and those that don't they sell for quite a bit of cash to fund purchases of experienced players.

Tell me, if you're right, why do these clubs persist with their academy's? Are they all worng and you right? Don't make me laugh!

C

[Swindon Hater]

Maybe the academy will work well for big clubs like Liverpool and that because they will get the best youngsters ready to challenge for the Premiership. Although looking at Chelsea spending money is the way for success and good football.

For a Second Division club, why not spend money on players to get us into the First Division then maybe challenge for the Premiership, then build a academy, because then we will see better players come through, and it will be like new signings.

[cheese]

Maybe the academy will work well for big clubs like Liverpool and that because they will get the best youngsters ready to challenge for the Premiership. Although looking at Chelsea spending money is the way for success and good football.

For a Second Division club, why not spend money on players to get us into the First Division then maybe challenge for the Premiership, then build a academy, because then we will see better players come through, and it will be like new signings.

But you just said that the academies weren't working for anyone? Make up your mind.

Do you not think it siginificant that the Gas no longer seem to have any decent youngsters coming through since our academy kicked in?

And our academy would only buy a £600k player a season - ignoring his wage costs and signing on fees. What would we get for that - as s second division club we're hardly going to attract the best are we? Unless, of course - you intend to follow the Swindon model!

C

[NATCHER]

At the recent AGM John Laycock implied that The Acadamy was self funding. Now while that money must come from outside sponsership, I'm guessing these sponsers would not be that forthcoming if their money were spent in transfer fees.

[Guest WillsbridgeRed]

I think without the Aceademy our finances would be in a worse sitiuation than they are now - Imagine having to find the funding to providing a first team squad with players who would cost money to bring in.

However I'm not so sure the Academy will be the way oout of this division, but as I've said before, with some investment in the playing squad to bring in some quality pros to provide a backbone we could do the business.

[richieb]

At the recent AGM John Laycock implied that The Acadamy was self funding. Now while that money must come from outside sponsership, I'm guessing these sponsers would not be that forthcoming if their money were spent in transfer fees.

Self funding?

Yep, I think that it does rely on outside sponsorship, but it is also self funding in that we produce players to move out at profit.

Lets be totally realistic,what young talent of any worth is going to want to ply his trade in the 2nd Div?

If we don't progress this season more of our home grown talent (Hill, Coles, Woodman) will want to try at a higher level.

I think an Academy for a 2nd Div club is a luxury, as we won't get the real talent staying & I see us being a feeder club for the big boys?

Move players on & get the odd match against the big boys.

SL has openly said that if we don't move up our cloth will have to be cut? - Academy maybe self funding now but will it remain that way?

[Guest WillsbridgeRed]

Oh just to add to what people have said about the "talent" our Academy produces, look at the amount of outstanding young players being loaned out by Premiership clubs right now.

Puts us to shame really

[Guest Harry May]

Well I am for the Academy . I prefer to see local lads playing for us. How long has the Academy been going for ? Not as long as Crewe's that's for sure - and that is the role model we should be aiming for . And anybody who compares how much Wigan/Cardiff / Reading spent to get into Division 1 , compared to how much we spend on our Academy ( not just on transfer fees but on wages as well ) can see that they spent considerably more. Plus they still fund either Academy ( in Readings case ) or centre of excellence football. I feel that it is not the Academy that is a financial luxury , but the journeymen we have purchased to complement the Academy product.

The one worry that I do have , is that if we do n't have succes this season , the likes of Danny Coles , Matty Hill and Craig Woodman will move on .

As has been said many times before ,the Academy is not a luxury but a necessity.

Caldicot Red.

[cheese]

<br /> OK Cheese, but this thread started I think as an 'Academy, Yes or No' type thread. Your comments would add weight to the 'S#### the Academy' camp, because you suggest there aren't any young starlets coming through?

I'm not entirely sure if a Div2 club needs an Academy myself. If we didn't have one though where would Danny Coles be now? playing for the Gas I bet.

Only if you take my comments out of context.

The poster was saying that with Peter Taylor as manager we would have more acadamedians playing in the side. Clearly we would not. The fact that we may not have any Rooney's in the academy is nothing to do with Wilson and everything to do with the fact that we're a second division side and also not Everton, Liverpool Arsenal etc.

The academy is the only way forward for an ambitious club. Everyone in football says so. If you're happy to wait for some mega rich Russian to buy the club then fine - s#### the academy and wait - but don'thold your breath. If, on the other hand, you'd like to follow the Swindon or Gas model, then again, s#### the academy and wait for a miracle. Me? I think I'll stick with academy and see us progress.

C

[England]

Been down this road before:

Academy costs between £600,000 and £1,000,000 depending on who you believe lets say £750,000 per year.

Don't know how long it's officially been in existence but say 4 years

How many players has it produced who are genuinely decent second division footballers?

Coles, Hill, ?Woodman, ?Amankwaah, struggling now ??Brown A, noone mention Lita because he came from Chelsea, so 2, 3, 4, 5 be generous say 6 so in four years we have come up with maybe 6 second division footballers at £500,000 each - hands up who would have paid £500,000 for the lot?

Bet DW wishes he had had an extra £500,000 a season to spend.

Oh and Liverpool are bemoaning the fact that their academy is producing jack sh#t over the last few seasons and apparently only one player is likely to make the first team.

Oh yes and out academy teams are getting stuffed and are on an eight game losing run.

Value for money? - NOT.

[cheese]

Been down this road before:

Academy costs between £600,000 and £1,000,000 depending on who you believe lets say £750,000 per year.

Don't know how long it's officially been in existence but say 4 years

How many players has it produced who are genuinely decent second division footballers?

Coles, Hill, ?Woodman, ?Amankwaah, struggling now ??Brown A, noone mention Lita because he came from Chelsea, so 2, 3, 4, 5 be generous say 6 so in four years we have come up with maybe 6 second division footballers at £500,000 each - hands up who would have paid £500,000 for the lot?

Bet DW wishes he had had an extra £500,000 a season to spend.

Oh and Liverpool are bemoaning the fact that their academy is producing jack sh#t over the last few seasons and apparently only one player is likely to make the first team.

Oh yes and out academy teams are getting stuffed and are on an eight game losing run.

Value for money? - NOT.

And if the academy is self funding how much, exactly, does it cost the club?

C

[Mr Mosquito]

Reply to cheese

"The poster was saying that with Peter Taylor as manager we would have more acadamedians playing in the side."

Had we appointed Peter Taylor then better young talent may have been attracted to the academy is my point (Peter Taylor was part of the successful England youth set up). Good players whether potential academy stars or seasoned pros are not exactly banging on Wilson's door to play for him. Former BCFC managers such as Dicks, Cooper and Jordan were able to attract the better players to BCFC, just what stars - apart from Mark Robins - have been attracted to BCFC with Wilson in charge?

[openEnd]

Reply to cheese

"The poster was saying that with Peter Taylor as manager we would have more acadamedians playing in the side."

Had we appointed Peter Taylor then better young talent may have been attracted to the academy is my point (Peter Taylor was part of the successful England youth set up). Good players whether potential academy stars or seasoned pros are not exactly banging on Wilson's door to play for him. Former BCFC managers such as Dicks, Cooper and Jordan were able to attract the better players to BCFC, just what stars - apart from Mark Robins - have been attracted to BCFC with Wilson in charge?

Come on RG!! but he got Harpal Singh and Craig Fagan, oh hang about you are right.

You ain't seen me right?

[cheese]

Reply to cheese

"The poster was saying that with Peter Taylor as manager we would have more acadamedians playing in the side."

Had we appointed Peter Taylor then better young talent may have been attracted to the academy is my point (Peter Taylor was part of the successful England youth set up). Good players whether potential academy stars or seasoned pros are not exactly banging on Wilson's door to play for him. Former BCFC managers such as Dicks, Cooper and Jordan were able to attract the better players to BCFC, just what stars - apart from Mark Robins - have been attracted to BCFC with Wilson in charge?

RG - you're unbelieveable, you really are. You have a contradiction to your argument so you ask us to ignore it! Anyway, since when did Robins qualify for the academy?

You have no evidence to back up your claim that more talented players would have been attracted to the academy?

Even with Peter Taylor in charge we would still be competing with the academies of Premiership and better placed 1st division clubs for the best of young talent. As a 15 year old I know where I would go given the choice and I love the club that is BCFC! What we do get, is the best of the rest - given a choice between an FA academy and a youth team (the alternative) then the youngster will choose the academy club.

So, I say it again, do you noy think it coincidental that since our academy got going, the Gas have failed to attract their usual glut of young promising players and are now languishing in Div 4?

C

[Mr Mosquito]

Reply to openEnd

Yet another problem with having Danny Wilson as manager - exactly what great football talent is he likely to attract given his poor record with real stars such as Di Canio and Carbone. Dicks brought in Hunter, Royle and Cooper. Cooper in turn brought in Jordan - all of whom are/were highly regarded. Says me convenviently forgetting a few "Dicks must go" chants.

[PhatWill]

Danny Wilson isn't an academy orientated manager?

Its obviously my imagination that the average age of our first team is about 22 then? I don't think we've ever had such a young side.

And for the record the academy costs between £500,000-650,000 a year not a million as the myth goes!

Anyone who thinks we should ditch the academy is quite simply misguided. Its such a shame that with the great work that has been achieved by Steve L and Colin S et al in getting together the project at St Georges that some clowns still can't see how the academy is and will push this club onto better things.

I do have slight concerns that from what I hear the set up at Rovers still seem to have a better reputation than BCFC in the way they improve kids ability but its worth waiting a couple more years yet to see if we've got any gems along the way.

+ as someone said the academy does fund itself to an extent, and I agree with Harry May - I'd much rather see the Bristol Babees run out than some fat, high earning journeyman! Like Carl Hutchings.

[cheese]

Reply to openEnd

Yet another problem with having Danny Wilson as manager - exactly what great football talent is he likely to attract given his poor record with real stars such as Di Canio and Carbone. Dicks brought in Hunter, Royle and Cooper. Cooper in turn brought in Jordan - all of whom are/were highly regarded. Says me convenviently forgetting a few "Dicks must go" chants.   

But they weren't brought in until after we had gained promotion to Div 1. If we got promoted to Div 1 or even the Prem we would be able to attract better players; a. becuase we'd be able to afford them and b. we'd be playing at a higher standard.

You seem to forget that there is a bigger gap in the pay structure of Prem clubs and the rest than there was in those days - players had to keep playing until they retired to run their own pub!

C

[Mr Mosquito]

Reply to Cheese

Without wanting this to get too tedious, Terry Cooper brought Joe Jordan to Ashton Gate while we were in ye olde Div 3 or 4. You're right about BCFC signing Hunter and Royle while we were in Div 1 though.

I'm still not convinced as to the benefits of the academy to BCFC in improving our poor league status. One benefit may be in the academy poaching talent from the Gas. I'll remain undecided on our academy that seems to be a luxury this club cannot at present afford. I'm only really interested in our first team and in thinking of ways of improving our league status - by bringing in a knowledgeable/charismatic manager for instance?