Has Johnson Convinced You

[Guest Harry Dolman]

isn't this all a bit achidemic now? yes certain loans were rubbish, but at least they were just that; loans. unlike grant smith and jamie smith we don't have to pay their contracts till the end of this and next season, or bridges who we were luck to find a club for. the two players he has signed permanetly in basso and noble look promosing buys. the loans were stop gaps, nothing more. quinn even looked pretty good at oldham, and would wager he isnt actually all that bad. joseph is now signing for blackpool and has a proven record at this level. the loans and the form at the time we had them were a product of bigger problems at the club. the problems came first, not the loans. they were a symptom, not a cause.

My view of the loans:

Sankofa - brought in as Heywood was injd - did ok to begin with, but we did seem to drag him down.

Younga - brought in after the "town" incident - was a rank bad decsion

Joesph - didn't see enough of him to comment

Quinn - brought in to cover Brooker - looked ok to begin with then faded.

Noble - very good so far.

Have I missed any ?? For me the only rank bad loanee was Younga.

We can argue ad infinitum about whether the shock treatment was necessary or not - in the case of Louis Carey is seems to have done wonders, we have re-discovered the player before he went to Cov. It also seems to have worked with Murray. Phillips seems to be the main "failure" of this method.

[Guest ashtonyate]

isn't this all a bit achidemic now? yes certain loans were rubbish, but at least they were just that; loans. unlike grant smith and jamie smith we don't have to pay their contracts till the end of this and next season, or bridges who we were luck to find a club for. the two players he has signed permanetly in basso and noble look promosing buys. the loans were stop gaps, nothing more. quinn even looked pretty good at oldham, and would wager he isnt actually all that bad. joseph is now signing for blackpool and has a proven record at this level. the loans and the form at the time we had them were a product of bigger problems at the club. the problems came first, not the loans. they were a symptom, not a cause.

Fans must remember that player like Grant smith were got because Lansdown told Tinnion there was no money to spend so Tinnion done the best he could with out any money its a joke now that Johnson has money to spend fans blaimeTinnion I think it was more down to Lansdown

[Bristol Boy]

isn't this all a bit achidemic now? yes certain loans were rubbish, but at least they were just that; loans. unlike grant smith and jamie smith we don't have to pay their contracts till the end of this and next season, or bridges who we were luck to find a club for. the two players he has signed permanetly in basso and noble look promosing buys. the loans were stop gaps, nothing more. quinn even looked pretty good at oldham, and would wager he isnt actually all that bad. joseph is now signing for blackpool and has a proven record at this level. the loans and the form at the time we had them were a product of bigger problems at the club. the problems came first, not the loans. they were a symptom, not a cause.

The loans that he made were, in the main, unnecessary.

We brought in Sankofa-We had Keogh & Fortune-Better or just as good.

We brought in Youga-We had Woodman, Golbourne & Fortune-All Better

We brought in Joseph-Ditto

They were a major contributory factor to the run of nine defeats

Tinnions decision to award a contract to Jamie Smith was awful and I said so at the time.His decision to sign Grant Smith AS A WINGER was also flawed.Bridges was a panic signing.

I agree about Basso & Noble who were both loans/short term contracts initially, so it can be done and that fact makes my point about the other loans.

[Guest Harry Dolman]

Fans must remember that player like Grant smith were got because Lansdown told Tinnion there was no money to spend so Tinnion done the best he could with out any money its a joke now that Johnson has money to spend fans blaimeTinnion I think it was more down to Lansdown

Tinnion didn't have "no" money to spend - he bought Partridge for £150K. In any event in the post Bosman era there is no reason at all why you can't develop a good squad spending little money - just pick the players up at the end of their contract.

[Bristol Boy]

Fans must remember that player like Grant smith were got because Lansdown told Tinnion there was no money to spend so Tinnion done the best he could with out any money its a joke now that Johnson has money to spend fans blaimeTinnion I think it was more down to Lansdown

Very good point.

SL must share the balme for the no transfer fees (Apart from Parto) policy.........along with DW who probably made him think of it after spending £2m in four seasons.........and winning the LDV.

Tinnion didn't have "no" money to spend - he bought Partridge for £150K. In any event in the post Bosman era there is no reason at all why you can't develop a good squad spending little money -

Tell that to Mourihno & Ferguson

just pick the players up at the end of their contract.

Clubs have gone past us on shoestrings for as long as I can remember.

Regarding BBs revolution/evolution

The players deserved the hand grenades and to be (I said a naughty word) off, I know I was. Even if the loanees didnt work, they at least shook up our regular "stars" enough to realise that they wouldnt be safe unless they performed, which is what we are now seeing. Revolution, as you call it may have been expensive in the short term but will hopefully pay off over the next few seasons.

Whilst I hope you're right about the long term, whether they deserved it or not, it is one of the factors, BT's another, that has cost us a play off place this year, IMHO.

Only time will tell and, like I said, ask me in 10 games time

[samo]

Where did you read that

its an opinion i have come to over the course of my life, not a quote. if your going to counter my post by just being derisive of my opinion then how can i take anything else you say seriously? isn't that the point of discussion? to open up to new ideas or possibilites? at least justify your flippant remark.

Comparisons between BT & GJ are pointless.BT was sacked for failing.The fact that SL flogged his best player a few days before the start of the season probably didn't help and BT could say with some justification that he, for example, wouldn't have sold Heff if he knew LL was going.I blame the player mostly for that.Criticism of GJ doesn't mean support for Tinnion.

very true. i didn't want to start an argument about past managers but talk about the present one. unfortunatly they are intertwined to some degree by the players at their disposal. selling our goal scorers didn't help tinnion this season. but he didn't MANAGE with what he had, did he? plus, tinnion walked. he wasn't pushed, and whos to say he would have been? but your right, moot point.

Well, we need to get much better, because four from bottom doesn't satisfy me.My issue with this "necessary and cathargic experience" was that, whilst it may have been cathargic, it wasn't necessary and if GJ had stuck with the team that beat Brentford & Barnsley, not gone as mad on the loans, looked for quality and not quantity and shake up front, then we could well be 7 points better off ,halfway up the table, and five points off the play offs, at least.

how do you know that? had he not changed things then we might have gone on to lose more games, not less.

it satisfies nobody that we lost 9. but had we picked up couple of draws and a win but GJ might never had established his authority. say that happend, we got promoted, and then the players (under the illusion they matter more than GJ, as he never stood up to them or imposed himself) fail next season and we go down. whos to blame? GJ. his neck is on the line. he didn't come here to go down to league 2. is it to hard to believe he did this stuff to try and better the club long term?

yes, as i have said many many time before on in posts, he made mistakes. but should we hang him now, after 6 unbeaten an a rejuvinated team? i'm not sure that would be wise for the LONG TERM health of our club.

and who is prepared to loan us their best players at the point of the season?

Go down that road and you're into the "Well, if you don't like Wilson, you're a Pulis Fan," territory and that's nonsense.

i didn't say that did i? and was i going down that road? i don't think i was. simply comparing the same group of players under two managers.

Have I missed any ?? For me the only rank bad loanee was Younga.

We can argue ad infinitum about whether the shock treatment was necessary or not - in the case of Louis Carey is seems to have done wonders, we have re-discovered the player before he went to Cov. It also seems to have worked with Murray. Phillips seems to be the main "failure" of this method.

my opinion too

Fans must remember that player like Grant smith were got because Lansdown told Tinnion there was no money to spend so Tinnion done the best he could with out any money its a joke now that Johnson has money to spend fans blaimeTinnion I think it was more down to Lansdown

true. but whos to say tinnion wouldn't have had money come january if he hadn't walked? i imagine he would have, had we been doing badly.

[Bristol Boy]

To see why GJ was employed in the first place, and what he was up againt when he came here you have got to look at the bigger picture.

Since we came down from what used to be called the second division we have had the mental mind set that we were too big a club to be in the third division, and if we spent enough money we would get promoted as a right.

Staff were engaged, both players and coaching, a good number of whom who could have survived in the second division, again the mind set being, that with these player all we would have to do is turn up and promotion would happen.

When it did not happen this way players lost intrest, training almost became optional for some, and some became more intrested in "none football past times".

This was why BT had such a large clear out of players when he took over, but did not have what it took to follow it through.

GJ has been brought in to change the mind set to accept that we will actually have to go out and win this division, and nothing will happen just becuase we want it to.

I see him creating a"team" specifically for the purpose of getting promoted, rather the one to survive in the second division and assuming promotion will follow automatically.

When and if (and i do think it will be when, but not this season) we get promoted he will then build the team for the division above.

The pain we have all been through with those nine losses was part of this process of engaging everyone in the reality of our situation and getting everyone to roll up their sleeves and work together.

This is a lost season, we will not get promoted, and we were not going to get promted prior to GJ arriving.

What we have got from this season is a club that now has its focus right, and knows where it is going and how to achive its aims. And in my opnion it is a very long time since we have had that.

Some excellent points, but please consider this when you talk about " a very long time".

DW finished 9th, 7th 3rd, 3rd so, whilst I was no fan of his, we did have progress and the team must have had something to finish 3rd twice with points totals that would have gained auto promotion in other seasons.

The break up of that team, SL's cost cutting, leaving players contracts until the end of that season and going for the cheap management & coaching option, in hindsight, may well have lead us to where we are today.

[surreyred]

Some excellent points, but please consider this when you talk about " a very long time".

DW finished 9th, 7th 3rd, 3rd so, whilst I was no fan of his, we did have progress and the team must have had something to finish 3rd twice with points totals that would have gained auto promotion in other seasons.

The break up of that team, SL's cost cutting, leaving players contracts until the end of that season and going for the cheap management & coaching option, in hindsight, may well have lead us to where we are today.

Like you i am no great fan of DW. However i do beleive given another season we would have gone up.

But when you look at the quality of players he had to work with, 3rd was pretty close to the least he ought to have achived after a good four seasons at the club.

In my opnion the reason he didnt achive promotion was the expectation that because DW had managed in the top division and, for this division, had quality players, all we had to do was turn up.

Its purly academic, but i do wonder what GJ would have achived with the squad DW had at his disposal.

[Bristol Boy]

its an opinion i have come to over the course of my life, not a quote. if your going to counter my post by just being derisive of my opinion then how can i take anything else you say seriously? isn't that the point of discussion? to open up to new ideas or possibilites? at least justify your flippant remark.

"Over the course of my life" Come of it, that's a quote.Can you set out your management experience and expand on a few of those theories

Comparisons between BT & GJ are pointless.BT was sacked for failing.The fact that SL flogged his best player a few days before the start of the season probably didn't help and BT could say with some justification that he, for example, wouldn't have sold Heff if he knew LL was going.I blame the player mostly for that.Criticism of GJ doesn't mean support for Tinnion.

very true. i didn't want to start an argument about past managers but talk about the present one. unfortunatly they are intertwined to some degree by the players at their disposal. selling our goal scorers didn't help tinnion this season. but he didn't MANAGE with what he had, did he? plus, tinnion walked. he wasn't pushed, and whos to say he would have been? but your right, moot point.

SL asked BT to leave-That's the same thing as being sacked.

Well, we need to get much better, because four from bottom doesn't satisfy me.My issue with this "necessary and cathargic experience" was that, whilst it may have been cathargic, it wasn't necessary and if GJ had stuck with the team that beat Brentford & Barnsley, not gone as mad on the loans, looked for quality and not quantity and shake up front, then we could well be 7 points better off ,halfway up the table, and five points off the play offs, at least.

how do you know that? had he not changed things then we might have gone on to lose more games, not less.

What, more than nine on the bounce!!!!

I'll tell you.GJ arrived we won 3 out of 4, then he made the changes, we lost nine on the spin, then he changed it back again and, guess what, we started winning........what's that a coincidence because if it is it's a wacking great one.

it satisfies nobody that we lost 9. but had we picked up couple of draws and a win but GJ might never had established his authority.

So winning and drawing would have been bad What are you saying that GJ deliberately lost those games.Don't talk daft

say that happend, we got promoted, and then the players (under the illusion they matter more than GJ, as he never stood up to them or imposed himself) fail next season and we go down. whos to blame?

Now you've entered the realms of fantasy The players ARE more important than anyone.If they're crap, you'll loose games.

GJ. his neck is on the line. he didn't come here to go down to league 2. is it to hard to believe he did this stuff to try and better the club long term?

I know

yes, as i have said many many time before on in posts, he made mistakes. but should we hang him now, after 6 unbeaten an a rejuvinated team? i'm not sure that would be wise for the LONG TERM health of our club.

Who suggested that? Don't make up arguments.Deal with the point in hand and what I've said

and who is prepared to loan us their best players at the point of the season?

Boston. What's that got to do with anything? It's not compulsory to loan players if they're no better than what you've got, so that'sjust facile

Go down that road and you're into the "Well, if you don't like Wilson, you're a Pulis Fan," territory and that's nonsense.

i didn't say that did i? and was i going down that road? i don't think i was. simply comparing the same group of players under two managers.

I didn't say "Don't judge me on this group of players" then ask them to save my ar$e, did I

[Guest jamiewilletts]

Not for me yet, heres why

Still near the bottom, no convincing signings, 9 defeats in a row, dodgy form, not good enough attacking wise..

Thats not to say he wont convince me...

yeah but this is not johnsons team its tinnions and he has got murray back to his best and has given the team an extra yard of pace!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Paul Hudd]

When Brian Tinnion resigned I text a couple of mates as to to who would be the new manager- I said Gary Johnson.

He is the man for the job and I believe he will be succesful. The reason I say this, is he shares the same passion and feelings as us as supporters. He shows feelings which Danny Wilson and Brian Tinnion did not do.

Gary Johnson also deals with the Media very well.

Also, to come out the other side after 9 straight defeats shows character and bottle. I feel he will prove very popular down at the Gate and I hope he is with us for a very long time.

[Alex_BCFC]

Ahem-I know you said "nearly" but:

a.Loans

b.Hand Grenades.

c.0 points out of 21.

d.Club Record 9 defeats on the spin.

e.Don't judge me on these players-12 of the played on Saturday!!

Those aren't minor things

Bristol Boy, normally I would reply properley but we have been throught these same things so many times, it's getting boring. We have very different ways of interpreting the facts. For example. you see a club record 9 defeats as a diaster. I see it as something that had to happen for a lot of our players to wake up and realise they should be doing better.

[Guest Harry Dolman]

I'll tell you.GJ arrived we won 3 out of 4, then he made the changes, we lost nine on the spin, then he changed it back again and, guess what, we started winning........what's that a coincidence because if it is it's a wacking great one.

But this is the great untruth.

We won 1 out of 1. Then he made a change - getting Sankofa in to cover Heywoods injury. No-one complained when we beat Barnsley, or when we unluckily lost to Hartlepool.

Then we had the town incident & subsequently Younga came in too. But no-one complained when we (a tad fortunately) beat Tranny.

Its commonly accepted that without the physical presence of Brooker we struggle so Quinn was a reasonable short term replacement (especially as the very next game Stewart got injured).

As I've posted before, other than Younga I can see the logic behind the loans. Had we carried on winning 9 pts from 12 & not had lots of injuries & 3 arrests then I have no doubt that the influx of loanees & the hand grenade would not have happened - but it was the poor results that led to them, not the other way round.

[samo]

"Over the course of my life" Come of it, that's a quote.Can you set out your management experience and expand on a few of those theories

it is not a direct quote, but if someone has said it before i an wasn't aware i apologise. why would i lie anyway? why is it so hard to believe? am i not allowed to hold an opinion such as this? if so, why? i just trying to state a position. why get all personal?

SL asked BT to leave-That's the same thing as being sacked.

fair point. my understanding of the situation was different and may have been wrong.

What, more than nine on the bounce!!!!

I'll tell you.GJ arrived we won 3 out of 4, then he made the changes, we lost nine on the spin, then he changed it back again and, guess what, we started winning........what's that a coincidence because if it is it's a wacking great one.

my argument was that if he had not taken a stand (refering to the 'hand grenade' and related issues following) and attempted to stop the problems present with the playing personel then over the course of the season we might have ended up losing more than those 9 games (spead out) as a concequence. by being what could described as brutal and, yes, making some mistakes through loans, at least no one feels they get into the side just because they exist. every player is being made to work for the shirt and the team. they were not all doing that prior to his arrival, even in those three out of four. loans might not have helped results but they have given some of our players the message that they are not untouchable. it was a game of brinksmanship with the players and, in my opinion, they seem to have blinked first.

So winning and drawing would have been bad What are you saying that GJ deliberately lost those games.Don't talk daft

of course i didn't mean that. and why the angry face? again you just get aggressive when i'm trying to debate an issue without looking in to what i am saying. that sentance was in the context of bringing in loans. GJ most likely thought they could fill the gaps created by disipline, injury and form. as an earlier poster stated i thought several of them were quite good first few games (which included barnsley with safkonga present) and GJ seemed to play them over regualr players. he seems to have done this to intentionally, maybe looking to draw a reaction from his other players, whilst also helping with fitness. also all this talk about him 'reverting' back is not even true see here;

barnsley line up-

Phillips; Orr, Sankofa, Partridge, Woodman; Cotterill, Skuse, Wilkshire, Brown (Murray 67); Brooker (Bridges 77), Stewart (Madjo 62).

bradford (which for the sake of argument we will see as the turning point) line up

Basso; Orr, Carey, Heywood, Woodman; Cotterill, Noble, Russell (G.Smith 61), Wilkshire (J.Smith 76); Brooker, Stewart (Savage 61).

i count only six of the starting 11 remaining the same, with J smith and wilkshire not playing big parts in the 6 game run after. that means although the squad was the same one available to him, it was far from the same team. in fact barnsley has more players (bridges, madjo, sankofa) who were not availalbe later.

i'm just trying to present my interpertaion of things so no need to get all :@ &

Now you've entered the realms of fantasy

no more fantastic than imagining "what ifs.." about the nine game run that your post suggests. again you ridicule when the only difference is i speculated about the rest of the season. again you simply insult me, not bothering to reason why.

The players ARE more important than anyone.If they're crap, you'll loose games.

it is true, but the ability to work as a team can bring out more from even bad players. if they aren't motivated or gelling even good players get undone by opposition with a hint of organisation. look at the fa cup this weekend gone. teams of part timers working hard for each othr upsetting great indiviual talents not prepared to give 100%.

Who suggested that? Don't make up arguments.Deal with the point in hand and what I've said

who suggested it? do you read this forum? the amount of times people have said how GJ isn't doing well enough and called for his head can be counted in the hundreds, particularly around the notts county/swindon defeats. i wasn't saying you had, i was talking about this forum. i was dealing with the point in hand; "has johnson convinced you?" and for some he hasn't. i was just fighting his corner as regards his early mistakes. no made up argument here

Boston. What's that got to do with anything? It's not compulsory to loan players if they're no better than what you've got, so that'sjust facile

"facile"? ok, you clearly don't care about my opinion or views, you simply are looking to bait me into having a go. considering that i often post insupport of your thoughts and opinions doesn't mean that when i disagree and you try and shout me down i am just going to roll over. i'm alowed my opinion too. it a shame because i often find alot of good comment get ground out through these threads, but to just dissmiss stuff cause you cannot be botherd to reply correctly is something i do not see the point in.

as for best players and clubs for loan. we effectivly bought noble and had he been rubbish i think we'd have found it very difficult to not end up with him, as southend are finding after loaning Campbell-Ryce from rotherham. and whos to say before he got them how they would perform under the circumstances? they could have won us the league for all we knew. plus GJ stated his long term targets wouldn't come on loan, so he got the rest to freshen up the squad and cover for injury. i don't think he would have loaned or picked them if he could have seen into the future and predicted the results.

I didn't say "Don't judge me on this group of players" then ask them to save my ar$e, did I

i really don't think he was worried about his "arse" to be honest. SL has given him a very wide remit. i could have see us sticking with him, even if we were doing as bad as sunderland are in the prem, and for no other reason than the cash it would cost to remove him if we went down. plus he seems as plesantly surprised as any of us that the team are playing his way now. the fact he told the lot of them they needed to buck their ideas up ('hand grenade') and they did suggests they were saving their own "arses", as alot more could have seen the door this month had we seen no improvement. again he pushed them and they conformed

ok so there we are. it seem clear to me you have some kind of problem with me which i don't remember instigating other than stating my opinion. i'm sorry that you do. i don't dissagree with you on most points raise, just want to put accross my view, which maybe is a bit soft on GJ, but then i'm an optomist, i can't help it.

[Tunley Legend]

Fans must remember that player like Grant smith were got because Lansdown told Tinnion there was no money to spend so Tinnion done the best he could with out any money its a joke now that Johnson has money to spend fans blaimeTinnion I think it was more down to Lansdown

Tinnion did have money to spend......................on the WAGES of Stewart, Bridges and Partridge. that obviously blew his TRANSFER FEE budget but the money was still there and spent. But you are right in one way - Lansdown was at fault for backing an inexperienced manager who clearly did not know what he was doing. But at the time he probably made the same mistake as all of us supporters and thought everything was going to work. So hindsight rules again!!

[Bristol Boy]

I'll tell you.GJ arrived we won 3 out of 4, then he made the changes, we lost nine on the spin, then he changed it back again and, guess what, we started winning........what's that a coincidence because if it is it's a wacking great one.

But this is the great untruth.

We won 1 out of 1. Then he made a change - getting Sankofa in to cover Heywoods injury.

Sorry.Only ten of the existing squad

No-one complained when we beat Barnsley, or when we unluckily lost to Hartlepool.

Come off it.My point and well you know it, is that we won 3 out of 4 with at least 9 players, Brentford was 11, that were here when he arrived.As you say, we played better against Hartleppol than Tranmere but lost.No complaints from me

Then we had the town incident & subsequently Younga came in too.

Why when we had Fortune & Woodman.If he'd brought in someone with expereince I could have understood it but replacing them with an Academy kid and subsequently loaning out Woodman was bannanas

But no-one complained when we (a tad fortunately) beat Tranny.

I complained, but was happy enough with the result and Youga was replaced by Fortune after about 55 minutes.

Its commonly accepted that without the physical presence of Brooker we struggle so Quinn was a reasonable short term replacement (especially as the very next game Stewart got injured).

Agreed. But not played up front on his own in a 4-5-1.Another mistake

As I've posted before, other than Younga I can see the logic behind the loans. Had we carried on winning 9 pts from 12 & not had lots of injuries & 3 arrests then I have no doubt that the influx of loanees & the hand grenade would not have happened - but it was the poor results that led to them, not the other way round.

I think we differ on that and the loans he brought in failed.All of them and the final manifestation of that was Doncaster.

Why bring in Sankofa,Youga & Joseph, then loan out Woodman, Keogh & Fortune???

Alright, Joseph is experienced but he came in last!!

Loanplayers didn't cause the defeats but they were a massive contributory factor along with GJ's mismanagement.

[Royz]

good management is like good politics. you shouldn't ask those you lead for they want to see you do, you set out a vision for them and ask them to either subscribe to it or look elsewhere.

this season i've seen us fall to our biggest loss since i can remember and our longest run of defeats since i can remember as well.

the first was more painful.

why? because under tinnion we were 'getting away' with it, if even that. we didn't look like a team, just a group of football players surviving on modest talent and adequate instincts.

GJ has spent the best part of the last several months drilling in to the players what he is looking for, and i know people will disagree with me, but i think it was a very catharic and required experience. i hated every minuite of it, but now the team looks fitter, more organised and focused. and i truely believe that we can, and will get much better.

as for the whole argument about the 'hand grenade' and 'tinnion's players', i think that is all rubbish quite frankly.

in GJs positon after southend i would have cancelled about 3-4 players contracts on the spot, and thought it money well spent, so a bit of home truth is getting off lightly in my opionion. its not like anything he said wasn't called for. the aftermath is the fault of whichever players couldn't take the cold hard truth about their performances, and it say more about their professionalism than GJs man management.

also, tinnion might have signed certain players, but he was only their gaffer for 3 and a half months (8 league/cup games), the same amount of time as GJ now has had to work with them. just because tinnion got them to sign a contract doesn't make him anymore of a mr. miyagi-like mentor to them as it would make SL. GJ got the loans in, they shook things up, and now we are seeing which players want to play for the bristol city shirt, and which (like grant smith) worked out that tinnion's inexperience could allow them to coast along and half speed whilst getting paid more in a couple of months than some fans earn in a year. some, like bridges, were keen but didn't fit GJ plan, so they are gone, but that happens in management. you can't please everyone and shouldn't try to.

the players wouldnt ever had played like this under tinnion, they didn't have to, he wouldn't know how to make them. it was a painful transition, but now we have a set of fit, determined players. they just aren't the same players as they were under tinnion.

i think we finally have someone who will bring long term stability and sustainable success. he is a real manager, willing to make hard choices, work himself and his charges correctly and invest clarity of purpose where there was only vauge direction previously. so yes, he has conviced me he is the man for the job. i believe (more than i ever have under any other manager) we will be in the championship in two seasons, starting next term.

Good post and just about sums it up I wish I had wrote this.

[LSR]

Not for me yet, heres why

Still near the bottom, no convincing signings, 9 defeats in a row, dodgy form, not good enough attacking wise..

Thats not to say he wont convince me...

phj do shut up its been less than a year for gods sake!! ,a manger needs a avarage of 3 years .get pver it.

[Bristol Boy]

"Over the course of my life" Come of it, that's a quote.Can you set out your management experience and expand on a few of those theories

it is not a direct quote, but if someone has said it before i an wasn't aware i apologise. why would i lie anyway? why is it so hard to believe? am i not allowed to hold an opinion such as this? if so, why? i just trying to state a position. why get all personal?

And the management experience that's led you to this conclusion

SL asked BT to leave-That's the same thing as being sacked.

fair point. my understanding of the situation was different and may have been wrong.

What, more than nine on the bounce!!!!

I'll tell you.GJ arrived we won 3 out of 4, then he made the changes, we lost nine on the spin, then he changed it back again and, guess what, we started winning........what's that a coincidence because if it is it's a wacking great one.

my argument was that if he had not taken a stand (refering to the 'hand grenade' and related issues following) and attempted to stop the problems present with the playing personel then over the course of the season we might have ended up losing more than those 9 games (spead out) as a concequence.

Well you didn't say that and it's very tenuos

by being what could described as brutal and, yes, making some mistakes through loans, at least no one feels they get into the side just because they exist. every player is being made to work for the shirt and the team.

OK. Lets explore that theory.You're Craig Woodman, Richard Keogh or Clayton Fortune.Two of those players have far more experience than Sankofa or Youga.Yet they are not given a chance and in comes two Charlton Academy lads-Work For The Shirt

they were not all doing that prior to his arrival, even in those three out of four. loans might not have helped results but they have given some of our players the message that they are not untouchable. it was a game of brinksmanship with the players and, in my opinion, they seem to have blinked first.

Nine Defeats isn't brinksmanship it's incompetence

So winning and drawing would have been bad What are you saying that GJ deliberately lost those games.Don't talk daft

of course i didn't mean that. and why the angry face? again you just get aggressive when i'm trying to debate an issue without looking in to what i am saying.

That's because the points you are making are either unclear or, when questioned, you move the goalposts and say you meant somethig entirely different

that sentance was in the context of bringing in loans. GJ most likely thought they could fill the gaps created by disipline, injury and form. as an earlier poster stated i thought several of them were quite good first few games (which included barnsley with safkonga present) and GJ seemed to play them over regualr players. he seems to have done this to intentionally, maybe looking to draw a reaction from his other players, whilst also helping with fitness. also all this talk about him 'reverting' back is not even true see here;

barnsley line up-

Phillips; Orr, Sankofa, Partridge, Woodman; Cotterill, Skuse, Wilkshire, Brown (Murray 67); Brooker (Bridges 77), Stewart (Madjo 62).

bradford (which for the sake of argument we will see as the turning point) line up

Basso; Orr, Carey, Heywood, Woodman; Cotterill, Noble, Russell (G.Smith 61), Wilkshire (J.Smith 76); Brooker, Stewart (Savage 61).

i count only six of the starting 11 remaining the same, with J smith and wilkshire not playing big parts in the 6 game run after. that means although the squad was the same one available to him, it was far from the same team. in fact barnsley has more players (bridges, madjo, sankofa) who were not availalbe later.

The Bradford team, inc subs, that played contained 11 players that were here when he arrived, Barnsley 13, that proves my point. At present we have only three players that are GJ' signings in Basso, Noble & Savage and I doubt that Bas will start many after the new striker arrives, barring injuries

Now you've entered the realms of fantasy

no more fantastic than imagining "what ifs.." about the nine game run that your post suggests. again you ridicule when the only difference is i speculated about the rest of the season. again you simply insult me, not bothering to reason why.

Read it in context with the rest of the reply.It's a bit like me posting something that said IF we could sign Thierry Henry..........It's just fantasy and not worthy of debate

The players ARE more important than anyone.If they're crap, you'll loose games.

it is true, but the ability to work as a team can bring out more from even bad players.

Agreed

if they aren't motivated or gelling even good players get undone by opposition with a hint of organisation. look at the fa cup this weekend gone. teams of part timers working hard for each othr upsetting great indiviual talents not prepared to give 100%.

Agreed again

Who suggested that? Don't make up arguments.Deal with the point in hand and what I've said

who suggested it? do you read this forum? the amount of times people have said how GJ isn't doing well enough and called for his head can be counted in the hundreds, particularly around the notts county/swindon defeats. i wasn't saying you had, i was talking about this forum. i was dealing with the point in hand; "has johnson convinced you?" and for some he hasn't. i was just fighting his corner as regards his early mistakes. no made up argument here.

I can't answer for the forum

Boston. What's that got to do with anything? It's not compulsory to loan players if they're no better than what you've got, so that'sjust facile

"facile"? ok, you clearly don't care about my opinion or views, you simply are looking to bait me into having a go. considering that i often post insupport of your thoughts and opinions doesn't mean that when i disagree and you try and shout me down i am just going to roll over. i'm alowed my opinion too. it a shame because i often find alot of good comment get ground out through these threads, but to just dissmiss stuff cause you cannot be botherd to reply correctly is something i do not see the point in.

I was dealing with the point you made and have made before about the quality of loan players.The point is that GJ did not have to bring them in and should have better utilised what was at his disposal.That's been proved by the fact that when he did that, things changed.

as for best players and clubs for loan. we effectivly bought noble and had he been rubbish i think we'd have found it very difficult to not end up with him, as southend are finding after loaning Campbell-Ryce from rotherham.

Didn't stop us sending the others back

and whos to say before he got them how they would perform under the circumstances? they could have won us the league for all we knew. plus GJ stated his long term targets wouldn't come on loan, so he got the rest to freshen up the squad and cover for injury. i don't think he would have loaned or picked them if he could have seen into the future and predicted the results.

There you go again-Factually incorrect. GJ said the exact opposite."I like to think that all players who come on loan could become permanent," was the quote after Joseph came in.I don't expect him to forsee the future. I do expect him to see that Sankofa & Youga were no better than what we already had.

I didn't say "Don't judge me on this group of players" then ask them to save my ar$e, did I

i really don't think he was worried about his "arse" to be honest. SL has given him a very wide remit. i could have see us sticking with him, even if we were doing as bad as sunderland are in the prem, and for no other reason than the cash it would cost to remove him if we went down. plus he seems as plesantly surprised as any of us that the team are playing his way now.

Another concern, as that suggests he doesn't know how it happened

the fact he told the lot of them they needed to buck their ideas up ('hand grenade') and they did suggests they were saving their own "arses", as alot more could have seen the door this month had we seen no improvement. again he pushed them and they conformed

What he told them to do was to "contact their agents"-That was the hand grenade and you can't do that kind off thing unless you're Abramovich and you CAN pay off their contracts and fore them out the door.

Try managing a company like that and it'll go bang in your face..........hence nine defeats!

[Robbored]

I like the way Johnson has got the team playing.He's got them playing good football,uses two wingers and tries to keep the ball down which most of us like to see.

I also like the Johnson attitude when it comes to winning rather than drawing games.Two wins and a loss is better than a win and two draws.I like to see City pushing on and trying to get all the points rather than sitting back and settling for a point especially away from home.

My doubt about him is his man-management style.From what we've seen and heard he only has one approach - the "big stick" approach and that doesn't work with every player as we've seen with Phillips and Stewart.

The bottom line is that the club will lose out as it did before if Johnson loses the dressing room again - and its the club I follow and support not the manager.

[Chappers]

Yes and no. The side looks a whole lot fitter, and recent form has been outstanding. Basso and Savage have so far done OK, but one day, Bassos mis-handling and eccentricity may cost goals, and Savage is fine, whilst Murray and Brooker are in good form.

I think he is on the right track, but I still have reservations, so ask again at Easter.

[cidercity]

good management is like good politics. you shouldn't ask those you lead for they want to see you do, you set out a vision for them and ask them to either subscribe to it or look elsewhere.

this season i've seen us fall to our biggest loss since i can remember and our longest run of defeats since i can remember as well.

the first was more painful.

why? because under tinnion we were 'getting away' with it, if even that. we didn't look like a team, just a group of football players surviving on modest talent and adequate instincts.

GJ has spent the best part of the last several months drilling in to the players what he is looking for, and i know people will disagree with me, but i think it was a very catharic and required experience. i hated every minuite of it, but now the team looks fitter, more organised and focused. and i truely believe that we can, and will get much better.

as for the whole argument about the 'hand grenade' and 'tinnion's players', i think that is all rubbish quite frankly.

in GJs positon after southend i would have cancelled about 3-4 players contracts on the spot, and thought it money well spent, so a bit of home truth is getting off lightly in my opionion. its not like anything he said wasn't called for. the aftermath is the fault of whichever players couldn't take the cold hard truth about their performances, and it say more about their professionalism than GJs man management.

also, tinnion might have signed certain players, but he was only their gaffer for 3 and a half months (8 league/cup games), the same amount of time as GJ now has had to work with them. just because tinnion got them to sign a contract doesn't make him anymore of a mr. miyagi-like mentor to them as it would make SL. GJ got the loans in, they shook things up, and now we are seeing which players want to play for the bristol city shirt, and which (like grant smith) worked out that tinnion's inexperience could allow them to coast along and half speed whilst getting paid more in a couple of months than some fans earn in a year. some, like bridges, were keen but didn't fit GJ plan, so they are gone, but that happens in management. you can't please everyone and shouldn't try to.

the players wouldnt ever had played like this under tinnion, they didn't have to, he wouldn't know how to make them. it was a painful transition, but now we have a set of fit, determined players. they just aren't the same players as they were under tinnion.

i think we finally have someone who will bring long term stability and sustainable success. he is a real manager, willing to make hard choices, work himself and his charges correctly and invest clarity of purpose where there was only vauge direction previously. so yes, he has conviced me he is the man for the job. i believe (more than i ever have under any other manager) we will be in the championship in two seasons, starting next term.

I cant disagree with any of that samo.

Totally concur.

I too am convinced gj is the man to take us to next level and with luck maybe beyond.

[samo]

And the management experience that's led you to this conclusion

in football or in life/work?

i've always played football competitivly since i was small (earliest sucess winning some type of schools cup when i was ten and getting the cup presented to the team by a sags player! i was mortified!) and drawn my opinions about the differnt 'gaffers' from this. later in my teens also helped coach the youth team (under 10 and under 13) connected to one of my teams. i still play but no competitivly, and i haven't coached in about four and a half years, though i hope to restart some time in the future.

work wise i left a post managing an off-licence to return to higher education. prior to that i worked at halifax bank for a short period with the intention of going in to an management post and took several stages of managment training before realising i didn't think it was for me. i spent a year before that working in a warehouse with the sternest, but most brilliant manager i've ever worked under. i have held other jobs under various bosses which have helped me come to the belief i set out before.

of course my statement was my own opinion and i don't expect everyone to agree with me but i find setting strict boundries, target and standards of behaviour (or being set them) enable me to work better and those i work with manage to be happy and forfilled at whatever task. the politics part is because i have always studied history and see this as a recuring factor in political leaders of any success. ruthless self belief and a strong set of ideals is a part of every born leader.

as i said its only an opinion, i haven't read a quote and thought "wow that will look good on the internet!" its just what i think.

as for the other, bristol city related stuff, i'm just going to say that we obviously disagree upon GJs intial period of management. i only hope they do well and maybe i'm too light on GJs treatment of the players etc. and for the purpose of the thread, yes, Johnson HAS convinved me.