A Message To The Hooligans Who

[Nibor]

Right - let's clear this up. What I am saying is that hooligans can also be football fans and support the club. Please don't quote any more dictionary definitions. When I say support I mean go to the game, pay the entrance fee & shout "come on you reds etc".

Again, I am not condoning hooliganism in any way, shape or form, just pointing out that to say that hooligans are not football fans/supporters etc is utter rubbish. Most of these idiots love the club as much as you or me, they just happen to be brain dead enough to get a buzz out of fighting.

I understand what you're saying and I won't argue the definition. I just think it's a bit pointless to consider one in isolation of the other. In my view, if someone does the club more harm than good then they can't be a supporter really, even if they think they are.

I think that's the point that needs driving home to these muppets - they're actually harming the club they profess to love. Other fans have to suffer inconvenience (Swansea) and indignity (Walsall) because of their idiocy, the club risks fines or points deductions when they decide to play up in the ground. But it's ok in their tiny little minds because they love the club.

Nibor

[mozo]

To be quite fair, if a bunch of people want to arrange to meet another bunch of people for some fisticuffs, I don't have a problem with that so long as they don't cause harm to other people or other people's property/posessions etc (ie smashing a pub up, thus depriving the landlord of custom).

The problem with football hooligans is that they ruin the experience for other people, which ain't on.

I do a bit of boxing which helps get any frustrations out of my system, plus provides a bit of self-defence in case I ever get approached by said idiots at an away game!

[BB.]

The problem with football hooligans is that they ruin the experience for other people, which ain't on.

The same problem could be said about the "supporters" who don't offer any actual support except money to the Club.

They sit there and criticize the players the whole game and don't actually give any encouragement. This ruins the experience for me and many others. A lot of people have stopped going to football because of this type of "supporter" and the atmosphere, or rather lack of it, which comes with them. It could be argued that the lack of atmosphere decreases the chances of City winning and getting up the football league, which also means less money for the club.

Should these people be banned too, as their "support" is outweighed by their negativity? Obviously their wrong doing against the Club are less noticeable than those of the hooligans, so they will be allowed to carry on in their ways.

I'm not saying that they should be banned, but I am saying that something needs to be done that encourages them to actually support.

The same could be said about the hooligans, instead of banning them, do something that will stop them from wanting to fight and smash up people's property.

Basically what I'm saying is do something about the source of any problem, instead of doing something about the symptoms or the problem will keep coming back. Also, some people's wrong doing is less/more noticeable than others, it doesn't mean that there are necessary any less re-percussions of their wrong doing...

Probably an issue for society to deal with as a whole rather than BCFC, but then again, aren't BCFC supposed to be part of the community?

[mozo]

The same problem could be said about the "supporters" who don't offer any actual support except money to the Club.

They sit there and criticize the players the whole game and don't actually give any encouragement. This ruins the experience for me and many others. A lot of people have stopped going to football because of this type of "supporter" and the atmosphere, or rather lack of it, which comes with them. It could be argued that the lack of atmosphere decreases the chances of City winning and getting up the football league, which also means less money for the club.

Should these people be banned too, as their "support" is outweighed by their negativity? Obviously their wrong doing against the Club are less noticeable than those of the hooligans, so they will be allowed to carry on in their ways.

I'm not saying that they should be banned, but I am saying that something needs to be done that encourages them to actually support.

The same could be said about the hooligans, instead of banning them, do something that will stop them from wanting to fight and smash up people's property.

Basically what I'm saying is do something about the source of any problem, instead of doing something about the symptoms or the problem will keep coming back. Also, some people's wrong doing is less/more noticeable than others, it doesn't mean that there are necessary any less re-percussions of their wrong doing...

Probably an issue for society to deal with as a whole rather than BCFC, but then again, aren't BCFC supposed to be part of the community?

Nice logic, but doesn't hold water.

In all walks of like, we have to tolerate people with different views. But how can you compare ill-informed views on football to causing physical damage to innocent people, scaring the hell out of people and damaging public and private property is beyond me!

Should we tolerate hooliganism, or maybe admire it, simply because of the knowledge that we live in a rubbish society. Do I not share the same frustrations, if not more, that drives hooligans to these acts?

All crime has deep-rooted social influences, but we can't simply ignore the harm being done, particularly when the people causing the damage are well aware of the effect it has on other people.

How dare Stoke City fans try to scale the fences at The Brittania away end to attack me? It's not on, and I'd sooner sit next to some ignorant ponce at a football match!

[red man dan]

Nice logic, but doesn't hold water.

In all walks of like, we have to tolerate people with different views. But how can you compare ill-informed views on football to causing physical damage to innocent people, scaring the hell out of people and damaging public and private property is beyond me!

Should we tolerate hooliganism, or maybe admire it, simply because of the knowledge that we live in a rubbish society. Do I not share the same frustrations, if not more, that drives hooligans to these acts?

All crime has deep-rooted social influences, but we can't simply ignore the harm being done, particularly when the people causing the damage are well aware of the effect it has on other people.

How dare Stoke City fans try to scale the fences at The Brittania away end to attack me? It's not on, and I'd sooner sit next to some ignorant ponce at a football match!

Thankyou for replying for me! i couldn,t bring myself to...comparing a few moaners to scum that stamp on peoples heads and smash cities up....riduclulous!

[Nibor]

The same problem could be said about the "supporters" who don't offer any actual support except money to the Club.

Not even slightly and I think this is a terrible comparison.

Football violence is a crime, it can kill or seriously injure people, you can go to jail for life for it. The club can be fined, docked points because of it.

Moaning is merely irritating. Singing/not singing is just a matter of preference.

Nibor

[mozo]

Thankyou for replying for me! i couldn,t bring myself to...comparing a few moaners to scum that stamp on peoples heads and smash cities up....riduclulous!

No, I sort of know where BB's coming from, but it ain't a great argument.

I don't think that hooligans are in any way these poor depressed people who get driven to their crime by a cruel intolerant society. Most just have an attitude problem. Many are doing very well for themselves n'all from what I hear.

[BB.]

Nice logic, but doesn't hold water.

In all walks of like, we have to tolerate people with different views. But how can you compare ill-informed views on football to causing physical damage to innocent people, scaring the hell out of people and damaging public and private property is beyond me!

Should we tolerate hooliganism, or maybe admire it, simply because of the knowledge that we live in a rubbish society. Do I not share the same frustrations, if not more, that drives hooligans to these acts?

All crime has deep-rooted social influences, but we can't simply ignore the harm being done, particularly when the people causing the damage are well aware of the effect it has on other people.

How dare Stoke City fans try to scale the fences at The Brittania away end to attack me? It's not on, and I'd sooner sit next to some ignorant ponce at a football match!

The comarison was tongue in cheek really, but the damage to BCFC by the all whinging and non-praising "supporters" probably has done more harm to BCFC more than there support has done good to BCFC. See what I mean... Should they be banned?

I never said we should admire hooliganism, but instead of simply banning them from football grounds and then shutting our eyes to them, the people in authority (whether at BCFC or somewhere else) should do something about the root cause of the problem or, as someone else has already said, the problem will just move on to somewhere else. So although you might not be able to see it, the problem and the re-percussions of the problem will remain.

How dare the moaner's sit there and contribute nothing to the cause of BCFC except their entrance fee and their negativity and then moan when the players don't reach their maximum potential and even if they do, still moan... Like hooliganism, it's not on... they're driving people away from BCFC as people don't want to spend £20 for an afternoon of negativity and a silent football ground with no atmosphere to speak of.

[red man dan]

No, I sort of know where BB's coming from, but it ain't a great argument.

I don't see at all, what B.B is saying about moaners etc is a valid point in it,s own right, but it simply is in-comparable to hooliganism. The two should not be talked about in the same vain,its a very poor argument at best.

Sorry B.B i disagree with you whole heartedly, paying customers have the right to express their opinion about the quality of the entertainment they have paid for, even if this is annoying and of no particular vocal support to the club on the day, without them the club would not exist. However hooligans paying or not do not have the right to attack innocent peolple and commit crimes, and they are simply something the club can do without, they have no positive impact upon the club what so ever.....moaners and whingers do, even if they are annoying sometimes, and often wrong aswell.

[BS10 RED]

Why do you think that hooligans aren't supporters? Don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning their behaviour, but having read a lot about this subject & knowing a few ex-hoolies myself I am pretty confident that most football hooligans are passionate about their respective clubs.

i agree,football hooligans are real fans maybe there just more passsionate about there team than the fan who would get in the ground at 1:30pm and sit with a cup of brovil and there jam sandwiches.

[Nibor]

instead of simply banning them from football grounds and then shutting our eyes to them, the people in authority (whether at BCFC or somewhere else) should do something about the root cause of the problem

Like what? Football violence isn't special. If you can solve the problem of how to stop people from acting like scumbags then you can apply it across the board and we'll never have any crime will we?

How dare the moaner's sit there and contribute nothing to the cause of BCFC except their entrance fee and their negativity and then moan when the players don't reach their maximum potential and even if they do, still moan... Like hooliganism, it's not on... they're driving people away from BCFC as people don't want to spend £20 for an afternoon of negativity and a silent football ground with no atmosphere to speak of.

If someone comes and watches a football match without singing they do not affect your experience of it in any way whatsoever. They're not having a positive impact but they're not having a negative one either. Sure, someone who sits there and moans is irritating and anti-social, but not even on the same scale as a thug who throws half a brick at you.

I would prefer a much noisier atmosphere too, but it's totally irrelevant to the debate about hooliganism.

Nibor

[BB.]

I don't see at all, what B.B is saying about moaners etc is a valid point in it,s own right, but it simply is in-comparable to hooliganism. The two should not be talked about in the same vain,its a very poor argument at best.

Sorry B.B i disagree with you whole heartedly, paying customers have the right to express their opinion about the quality of the entertainment they have paid for, even if this is annoying and of no particular vocal support to the club on the day, without them the club would not exist. However hooligans paying or not do not have the right to attack innocent peolple and commit crimes, and they are simply something the club can do without, they have no positive impact upon the club what so ever.....moaners and whingers do, even if they are annoying sometimes, and often wrong aswell.

I'm not actually sticking up for hooligans, don't get me wrong and I think you're right when you say that perhaps I shouldn't have compared the two.

However, it was the logic that the hooligans do more harm than good to BCFC and so should be banned which got me going.

I just thought that if we're using that logic then the people who constantly slag of the players and don't support them should be banned too. It creates a negative atmosphere for the players to play in. i.e. lessening the chances of BCFC having success. Like I said before though, the comparrisson is tongue in cheek.

What good do constant moaners do to BCFC by the way?

[Sir Colby-Tit]

Maybe it's just easier for your average non-hooligan fan to say hooligans aren't "real fans" to distance themselves from the problem. It's a lot easier than admitting we might actually have something in common with them ie the love for your club.

I challenge anyone to read Cas Penant's autobiography & claim he isn't a real football fan, or Dave Gill for that matter.

I personally think we don't have much to worry about anyway, violence within grounds is extremely rare nowadays & the fools that want to fight seem to do it away from the grounds & usually only amongst themselves. Probably the same people who like to knock seven bales out of each other in town every weekend.

Young working class men in this country have always fought each other & always will, they don't need an excuse but football is a convenient cause. It aint ever going to stop!

[mozo]

I'm not actually sticking up for hooligans, don't get me wrong and I think you're right when you say that perhaps I shouldn't have compared the two.

However, it was the logic that the hooligans do more harm than good to BCFC and so should be banned which got me going.

I just thought that if we're using that logic then the people who constantly slag of the players and don't support them should be banned too. It creates a negative atmosphere for the players to play in. i.e. lessening the chances of BCFC having success. Like I said before though, the comparrisson is tongue in cheek.

What good do constant moaners do to BCFC by the way?

It's pointless quibbling. The wrongs of hooligans are patently obvious. They harm the lives of innocent people, that's the problem. There no intelligent justification for it as far as I know, but if there is I'd love to hear it.

As I said, fighting amongst themselves is fine, but don't mess with ordinary people's lives or you're deservingly going to be banned from football and locked up. Live and let live.

i agree,football hooligans are real fans maybe there just more passsionate about there team than the fan who would get in the ground at 1:30pm and sit with a cup of brovil and there jam sandwiches.

If you see hooligans as people who are just 'more passionate' about their club I doubt the women in their lives particularly look forward to a night of 'passion'!

[BB.]

Like what? Football violence isn't special. If you can solve the problem of how to stop people from acting like scumbags then you can apply it across the board and we'll never have any crime will we?

Nope, thats why instead of telling these people to go away and cause havock else where and then the place they get moved to the people tell them to go away etc etc, and actually work with them as appose to against them then we may stand a chance of getting somewhere. Oh wait, I forgot, this may cost money. When these money people are on their death beds, there will still be chaos in the world, but at least they'll have X amount of money that they won't be able to spend.

If only people would work together, idealistic I know, but if only...

If someone comes and watches a football match without singing they do not affect your experience of it in any way whatsoever. They're not having a positive impact but they're not having a negative one either. Sure, someone who sits there and moans is irritating and anti-social, but not even on the same scale as a thug who throws half a brick at you.

I would prefer a much noisier atmosphere too, but it's totally irrelevant to the debate about hooliganism.

I agree that I would rather have someone constantly moaning in my ear hole than someone throwing half a brick at me, although neither are innocent and at least the brick throwing doesn't last two hrs 23 times a season.

Fair enough that not all people want to sing at football matches, but why sit in silence in the traditional singing areas? Or sit right at the back of a stand and then complain when people stand up infront of them? (I'm well of topic now)

It comes back to working together as appose to working against each other. If the Club could set asside an area where people will know what to expect i.e. singing, standing etc.. then we won't have half the problems we're having now, would we?

Nibor

BB.

[WTFiGO!?!]

I think the acts of sitting there in silence and jeering when your satisfaction is not met (which does more damage than is given recognition imo and is certainly more than 'just an irritation') and the acts of hooliganism (clearly negative behaviour) from people who profess to be ''supporters'' are both detremental contributions to BCFC. On this logic, I will argue that they can be compared.

Also, if you were to go to the theatre or to a concert and started barracking the performers for being crap then either it would make sense to leave there and then and count your losses and you'd probably be asked to leave anyway, in the future you would be unlikely to want to return or even be banned from returning. As the theatre and Football have become one in the same thing then I think these same rules should be applied to Football grounds.

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...and pretty girls make graves...('Pretty Girls Make Graves' - The Smiths)

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[mozo]

Nope, thats why instead of telling these people to go away and cause havock else where and then the place they get moved to the people tell them to go away etc etc, and actually work with them as appose to against them then we may stand a chance of getting somewhere.

BB, you're hinting at something here..

Tell me mate, what do you think is the motive of football violence?

Is it more than just arrogant macho bravado?

[richwwtk]

i agree,football hooligans are real fans maybe there just more passsionate about there team than the fan who would get in the ground at 1:30pm and sit with a cup of brovil and there jam sandwiches.

This issue has absolutely nothing to do with passion or support, it's about thuggery pure and simple. People whose only answer to problems is violence have no place in society, let alone at a football match.

Your 'No Surrender' Avatar and your Stone Island/CSF Signature suggests that you actually look up to these people, making you some kind of wannabe hoolie. Coming from somebody that has claimed in previous postings to be a loving family man, that is just plain sad.

[mozo]

I think the acts of sitting there in silence and jeering when your satisfaction is not met (which does more damage than is given recognition imo and is certainly more than 'just an irritation') and the acts of hooliganism (clearly negative behaviour) from people who profess to be ''supporters'' are both detremental contributions to BCFC. On this logic, I will argue that they can be compared.

Then I'd like to compare hooliganism to paedophilia. Both are illegal, both have a negative effect on the lives of other people, both mentally and physically.

Aren't tenuous comparisons good ways of winning arguments..

[SE23Red]

i agree,football hooligans are real fans maybe there just more passsionate about there team than the fan who would get in the ground at 1:30pm and sit with a cup of brovil and there jam sandwiches.

I've never even been tempted to hit/knife/glass(*) an opposition fan. Are you suggesting that I'm not passionate enough about my team and that I need to start breaking the law to demonstrate my support?

There is nothing glamorous about football hooliganism. To suggest these are the clubs most passionate supporters is misguided nonsense. They are simply criminals like all other perpetrators of violence.

*delete as appropriate - I haven't got a clue what is fashionable amongst criminals these days.

[myoudale]

The lot i think you might be refering to, might have been a group of rovers fans. i got a phone call after the game from a gashead saying he was at the game, with bout 20 other people. he said they was in the pub and there game got called off so decided to come up the gate, they arrived not long before 3 either. also he said that they wore a black coat to hide the gas shirts which they had on underneath.

[SE23Red]

The lot i think you might be refering to, might have been a group of rovers fans. i got a phone call after the game from a gashead saying he was at the game, with bout 20 other people. he said they was in the pub and there game got called off so decided to come up the gate, they arrived not long before 3 either. also he said that they wore a black coat to hide the gas shirts which they had on underneath.

20 Rovers fans approaching AG trying not to look suspicious whilst all crammed into a single black coat. Not the brightest bunch are they

[Guest DrFaustus]

20 Rovers fans approaching AG trying not to look suspicious whilst all crammed into a single black coat. Not the brightest bunch are they

That's not fair, it was an awful big coat.

[SE23Red]

That's not fair, it was an awful big coat.

Is that like the awful quartered shirts?

[Guest DrFaustus]

Is that like the awful quartered shirts?

What has Wycombe's kit got to do with this thread?

[BS10 RED]

This issue has absolutely nothing to do with passion or support, it's about thuggery pure and simple. People whose only answer to problems is violence have no place in society, let alone at a football match.

Your 'No Surrender' Avatar and your Stone Island/CSF Signature suggests that you actually look up to these people, making you some kind of wannabe hoolie. Coming from somebody that has claimed in previous postings to be a loving family man, that is just plain sad.

am no wannabe mate i was part of the cjs untill my son was born then i relised there is more to life but all am saying is ive not got a problem with it

[Simon Lambley]

In an ideal society we wouldn't need to have this conversation, But we are.

Hooligans : The one 's who want to fight, do . These bankers, lawyers , builders etc

ARRANGE meets , this is an organised ' event ' .

Usually the generals of firms are elderly family men who like a ruck ( the excuse by some is a

release from the humdrum life they have ) others are kids who are easily influenced by peer pressure.

ALL love there clubs , be it city, west ham , millwall or chelsea.

But real hooligans don't tend to just attack innocents they know the rivals and thats who thay target.

I think the NEW surge of hooligans is part because of films such as football factory , green street , i.d etc

I'm not a hooligan , i don't go down town / city centers for a scrap.. However i do choose to read the works

of cass pennant , martin knight and bristols very own chris brown ( He's a sag mind ).

I like to try and understand the mindset of the dubious, then those that turn up at grounds with their

burberry uniforms can be condoned, for bringing into the ground.

Before you all start on at me i also read about seriel killers but have never had the need to go out

and kill.

[richwwtk]

am no wannabe mate i was part of the cjs untill my son was born then i relised there is more to life but all am saying is ive not got a problem with it

If you're no wannabe but a real life, big tough hooligan then please find a rock to crawl under and leave our football club alone. You're not wanted. And if you've realised there's more to life, why continue to promote it? Do you still not realise just how idiotic it is?

[WTFiGO!?!]

Then I'd like to compare hooliganism to paedophilia. Both are illegal, both have a negative effect on the lives of other people, both mentally and physically.

Aren't tenuous comparisons good ways of winning arguments..

You can compare away Mozo. Both are problems and strike me as wrong and I'd like to see both hooliganism and peadophilia put a stop to. Peadophilia has nowt to do with BCFC however so I fail to see the relevance.

I'm arguing supposed supporters who enjoy a spot of hooliganism are detremental to BCFC and I'm arguing supposed supporters booing and jeering their own players are detremental to BCFC. I would like there to be less of both of them, this is not that a tenuous comparison for my argument as far as I can see.

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Take me down to the paradise city where the grass is green and the girls are pretty - oh won't you please take me home...('Paradise City' - Guns N Roses)

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[mozo]

But real hooligans don't tend to just attack innocents they know the rivals and thats who thay target.

I think the NEW surge of hooligans is part because of films such as football factory , green street , i.d etc

I undestand that Hooligans usually fight other Hooligans, but when they don't, and when they cause damage to other people's property as part of their gang warfare, they're a social burden.

I can understand politically-inspired violence, but why do these people do what they do?

I hoped that BB could give me his opinion.