A Message To The Hooligans Who

[richwwtk]

I'm arguing supposed supporters who enjoy a spot of hooliganism are detremental to BCFC and I'm arguing supposed supporters booing and jeering their own players are detremental to BCFC. I would like there to be less of both of them

Completely spot on

[mozo]

You can compare away Mozo. Both are problems and strike me as wrong and I'd like to see both hooliganism and peadophilia put a stop to. Peadophilia has nowt to do with BCFC however so I fail to see the relevance.

I'm arguing supposed supporters who enjoy a spot of hooliganism are detremental to BCFC and I'm arguing supposed supporters booing and jeering their own players are detremental to BCFC. I would like there to be less of both of them, this is not that a tenuous comparison for my argument as far as I can see.

One is a crime, one isn't.

One causes physical damage to other human beings, the other only 'irritates' people in the same way that sitting next to someone you don't like on the bus does (should they be banned from buses?).

You can't ban people for having views, but you can for causing violence. Simple.

I think you're playing devils advocate in a slightly facetious way monsieur WFT!

Edit: i'm not a boo-boy by any stretch by the way!

[Simon Lambley]

I undestand that Hooligans usually fight other Hooligans, but when they don't, and when they cause damage to other people's property as part of their gang warfare, they're a social burden.

I can understand politically-inspired violence, but why do these people do what they do?

I hoped that BB could give me his opinion.

so did i ..

It's a can of worms, in any book i've read it's never relly explained

all the usual dross : part of a group , frustrations etc.

But then why do some people go out at a weekend looking to kick someones head in.

I had it in northampton , trying to get my (I said a naughty word) up mate home , then attacked by a gang

of kids , 16 yr olds roughly, why ? no idea.

[mozo]

so did i ..

It's a can of worms, in any book i've read it's never relly explained

all the usual dross : part of a group , frustrations etc.

But then why do some people go out at a weekend looking to kick someones head in.

I had it in northampton , trying to get my (I said a naughty word) up mate home , then attacked by a gang

of kids , 16 yr olds roughly, why ? no idea.

I personally think that hooliganism massages the ego of pseudo-macho (possibly insecure) men.

[Simon Lambley]

I personally think that hooliganism massages the ego of pseudo-macho (possibly insecure) men.

agree

[Lordofthebling]

nothing wrong with a little slap as a welcome.i've had it done to me when i went to qpr.got a slap of about 15 of their younger boys like 15-20year olds i was with 4mates.we gave a little go of it but then we got over turned so just ran to the ground we just took it as a welcome.

Personally, I hope you got a slap whilst you were looking for trouble. If you have ever been to an away ground with your wife, girlfriend, kids or mates, and you have had a gang of rival fans following you - it aint nice.

i agree,football hooligans are real fans maybe there just more passsionate about there team than the fan who would get in the ground at 1:30pm and sit with a cup of brovil and there jam sandwiches.

Yeah, hooligans are real passionate. don't talk such absolute rubbish. Why on a Saturday is it alright to fight someone because of the football club they support? How can you measure violence as passion? An old dear who has been to every home game for 65 years is passionate. Wearing burberry and wandering round with 20 other blokes kicking over traffic cones cause we saw football factory last night is not passionate.

am no wannabe mate i was part of the cjs untill my son was born then i relised there is more to life but all am saying is ive not got a problem with it

What are you going to think if he gets involved with it all? Or if he gets a slap at QPR away by mindless thugs after he was minding his own business?

[WTFiGO!?!]

I think you're playing devils advocate in a slightly facetious way monsieur WFT!

Edit: i'm not a boo-boy by any stretch by the way!

I honestly was not intending to do that and I'm not arguing that one is not worse (illegal, harmful to others etc) than the other, I've not even called for the banning of either of them,(that theatre comparison aside) I'm just trying to point out that they both p155 me off and they do BCFC more harm than good.

I never suspected you of being a boo-boy as I've been reading your posts since your return from the OTIB wilderness and not only have you made comments to strongly suggest you're not, you seem to well adjusted. You do seem to enjoy a debate though I see!

Also, boo-boos are more than just an irritation to me, they actually mentally disturb me. (This really is a deliberately slightly facetious remark btw)

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....I was bitten by a baw, I was gauged and I was gawled.....I'm a monkey ('Monkey Man' - Rolling Stones)

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[mozo]

Also, boo-boos are more than just an irritation to me, they actually mentally disturb me. (This really is a deliberately slightly facetious remark btw)

But that bit I agree with!

Nah I agree that misery guts fans are a pain. I'm a bit of a happy-clapper something that I'm currently seeking psychiatric help for.

Like I said, I like a bit of boxing, which must be more enjoyable than hooliganism.

[bucksred]

am no wannabe mate i was part of the cjs untill my son was born then i relised there is more to life but all am saying is ive not got a problem with it

don't understand why you gotta ruck to have a good time mate Whats the point in it? Specially abroad, I've personally ran foul of England fans on the rampage..it aint forkin funny!

[BB.]

BB, you're hinting at something here..

Tell me mate, what do you think is the motive of football violence?

Is it more than just arrogant macho bravado?

I've only known a few "hooligans" that come to mind, so I'm hardley in a position to say.

One of the people that I know who was partial to hooliganism took after his old man, so you could say that it was a culural thing for him.

The other lad I knew seemed like a very angry young man. What he was angry about I don't know, but angry he was. He probably saw fighting as an outlet for his anger.

I knew one lad briefly, who was a hooligan, but not at the football, he'd fight in town etc... He had got to the stage of his life where he had just thought **** it! There were no limits as he didn't care what happened to him or anyone who crossed him. Would anyone think dis-owning this lad would be a positive thing? Stability was required, not dis-owning. Clearly had issues that needed sorting through.

To the question "is it more than just arrogant macho bravado?", I will say that everyone is different, so we can't really say it is because of just one reason. I am very sure that it isn't just "arrogant macho bravado" though. People enjoy the buzz of fighting though. People do things for many different reasons...

With any problem, if you ignore it, it won't go away will it? Which is why I suggest that we accept that not everyone is perfect and get to know why they do things as appose to just telling them to go away.

You can't do something about a problem unless you know what the problem is, the fighting is the result of the issues, the fighting is the symptoms if you like. I

How do we find out why hooligans fight? I think that there needs to be people who can spend time with them and get to know them. Telling them to go away and banning them from everything is not a very good way to get to know them.

Although, if there is a group of people who are causing a large danger to another group without any remourse, then what can you do? Banning them might be the only option for the safety of others. But it won't get rid of the problem, just move it on...

[Nibor]

Nope, thats why instead of telling these people to go away and cause havock else where and then the place they get moved to the people tell them to go away etc etc, and actually work with them as appose to against them then we may stand a chance of getting somewhere. Oh wait, I forgot, this may cost money. When these money people are on their death beds, there will still be chaos in the world, but at least they'll have X amount of money that they won't be able to spend.

If only people would work together, idealistic I know, but if only...

I don't think it's anything to do with working together or kicking people out. Fact is some people are selfish scumbags. Usually because they've been brought up to be selfish scumbags, by other selfish scumbags. No amount of working together will change that unfortunately.

Football violence is usually just mob mentality and macho bull that attracts the sort of idiot who thinks looking hard is more important than the guy with the brick in his head.

I agree that I would rather have someone constantly moaning in my ear hole than someone throwing half a brick at me, although neither are innocent and at least the brick throwing doesn't last two hrs 23 times a season.

Fair enough that not all people want to sing at football matches, but why sit in silence in the traditional singing areas? Or sit right at the back of a stand and then complain when people stand up infront of them? (I'm well of topic now)

It comes back to working together as appose to working against each other. If the Club could set asside an area where people will know what to expect i.e. singing, standing etc.. then we won't have half the problems we're having now, would we?

BB.

I agree the club could do alot more to improve the atmosphere and give everyone the choice of what they want. I'm 100% behind having designated singing areas or even a terrace if a way can be found that works. I just don't think it has anything to do with football violence.

[BB.]

I don't think it's anything to do with working together or kicking people out. Fact is some people are selfish scumbags. Usually because they've been brought up to be selfish scumbags, by other selfish scumbags. No amount of working together will change that unfortunately.

And that's your opinion based on what then? You might be right, but I for one don't think it is as simple as that.

It's amazing how far a bit of respect will go...

[Nibor]

And that's your opinion based on what then? You might be right, but I for one don't think it is as simple as that.

It's amazing how far a bit of respect will go...

Based on my experience of life so far, what else?

I went to school in an inner city comprehensive in South Bristol, I played football for a team in the middle of Knowle West, live in Totterdown and Bemmy for a while. I know people who've been involved in violence with City and Rovers. I've drunk in the same pubs and talked to them, and I've seen it happen at games and away from games.

Every single person I know who's been involved in it has this in common - they all do it for the image and macho gratification. It's not the result of some sort of deprivation, it's not an illness, it's pure unadulterated selfishness. Their hard image is more important to them than what happens to the person on the receiving end. Usually they have a father who thinks the same way and half the time is proud of them. Not one of them would know respect if it bit them in the arse. Sure, some of them can be a good laugh in the pub, some of them will help a little old lady across the street, but the fact is they're all quite happy to kick lumps out of someone whose sole crime was to go and watch football.

Now maybe you know some hoolies who have some special understandable reason for doing it, but I don't.

[mozo]

How do we find out why hooligans fight? I think that there needs to be people who can spend time with them and get to know them. Telling them to go away and banning them from everything is not a very good way to get to know them.

Although, if there is a group of people who are causing a large danger to another group without any remourse, then what can you do? Banning them might be the only option for the safety of others. But it won't get rid of the problem, just move it on...

I'm glad you responded, that was an interesting post.

When you take that stance with hooliganism, I presume you have the same view with all other anti-social/criminal behaviour?

But whilst showing empathy, you have to enforce some sort of limitations on the people who commit the offences, or it'll just get worse.

But then, at what point do they take responsibility for their actions? I'd say that 95%of these people know the difference between right and wrong, and know full well that their behaviour is unnacceptable. The problem is that they don't care.

I'm not sure your suggested research would provide a solution. The books and films haven't proved too insightful.

It's amazing how far a bit of respect will go...

You think football-related violence is a result of people not getting respect?

[BB.]

Not one of them would know respect if it bit them in the arse.

That comment is interesting. How are people supposed to know respect if they've never been shown respect?

If all people are called is meat heads or low lifes etc... then how do you honestly expect them to behave?

Like I say, it's amazing how far a little respect will go...

Treat people with genuine respect and there is an awful lot more chance of them behaving with respect.

Treat people with no respect and they are more likely to behave with out respect, especially if what you say is true about their father's being the same.

[mozo]

That comment is interesting. How are people supposed to know respect if they've never been shown respect?

If all people are called is meat heads or low lifes etc... then how do you honestly expect them to behave?

Like I say, it's amazing how far a little respect will go...

Treat people with genuine respect and there is an awful lot more chance of them behaving with respect.

Treat people with no respect and they are more likely to behave with out respect, especially if what you say is true about their father's being the same.

There's a flaw in your argument:

They get labelled 'meat heads' etc, because of their behaviour. There's no chicken/egg scenario.

Hooligans lose the respect of people because society sees how their actions have a detrimental effect.

Those Gasheads who smashed that pub up - should we now respectfully ask them not to do it again? Do you think they'd listen, or do you think they laugh?

[Nibor]

That comment is interesting. How are people supposed to know respect if they've never been shown respect?

If all people are called is meat heads or low lifes etc... then how do you honestly expect them to behave?

Like I say, it's amazing how far a little respect will go...

Treat people with genuine respect and there is an awful lot more chance of them behaving with respect.

Treat people with no respect and they are more likely to behave with out respect, especially if what you say is true about their father's being the same.

Chicken, egg? Show respect for someone that's happy to kick lumps out of someone else for no reason? Unlikely.

How much respect does a football fan have to show to not get his head kicked in then? Should they just remove their hat and bow or do you think they should kneel?

The only thing respect has to do with this is that it's caused by people being brought up with no respect for others.

[BB.]

I'm glad you responded, that was an interesting post.

When you take that stance with hooliganism, I presume you have the same view with all other anti-social/criminal behaviour?

I think that there is always a reason why people do the things that they do, always a rooted cause to the actions that people see.

When you can see what the root cause is, then you can un-root it, so to speak.

The root cause to the problem isn't "they are meat heads" or, "losers". Although if anyone is told that they are something like that enough, they are going to believe it, but who says that people can't change the opinion of themselves?

But whilst showing empathy, you have to enforce some sort of limitations on the people who commit the offences, or it'll just get worse.

Agree.

But then, at what point do they take responsibility for their actions? I'd say that 95%of these people know the difference between right and wrong, and know full well that their behaviour is unnacceptable. The problem is that they don't care.

Why don't they care?

I'm not sure your suggested research would provide a solution. The books and films haven't proved too insightful.

I think that if you can somehow get to the root cause of an individuals problems then you can do something about it. How are you supposed to get to the root cause of the individuals problem without talking with the individual?

You think football-related violence is a result of people not getting respect?

One of the reason's I reckon, the people involved in football-related violence will be able to say more than me...

[Northern Red]

am no wannabe mate i was part of the cjs untill my son was born then i relised there is more to life but all am saying is ive not got a problem with it

The CJS ? Is the City Junior Strikers just a front for a well organised firm of kiddie hooligans then ?

[red man dan]

I think that there is always a reason why people do the things that they do, always a rooted cause to the actions that people see.

When you can see what the root cause is, then you can un-root it, so to speak.

I think that if you can somehow get to the root cause of an individuals problems then you can do something about it. How are you supposed to get to the root cause of the individuals problem without talking with the individual?

Sorry but I'm sick of hearing about the reasons why some people decide to be mindless thugs and beat up innocent people for no reason. Why are peolple always so quick to defend such reprabates and give them an excuse saying its not thier fault, its their poor up-bringing or society. ********.....whilst i agree that this may not help, the fact of the matter is at the end of the day if these people can not see what they are doing is a disgrace then I'm afraid they are in my opinion just C****, and regardless they would have ended up as C****.

Everybody has problems, everybody gets angry about stuff, and we don't all react by taking a bottle and sticking in some poor sods face.

I have friends who have had tough up bringings, violence in the home, divorces etc etc, and those people have gone on to make great lives for themselves.

I have friends and oppo,s who have experienced extreme pressure under the most challenging of circumstances, who don't let out their frustrations by fighting to look hard.

At the end of the day some people are decent good people and some are sods....sods should be dealt with in the appropriate manner....by being given no respect untill they deserve it and by being charged for their crimes. People who cant be arsed to help themselves don't in my opinion deserve to be given any help by others. You get out of life what you put into it.

As far as I'm concerened hooligans are scum, and i don't particulary care why they are hooligans, and the reasons that may have led to them living like this.

[mozo]

Slightly opposed views there then.