Not Since 1994

[solo1bc]

I am a proud Englishman. I love my country. I love my heritage. I think we have the potential to lead the world in the next century.

Why then am I so ashamed today to be British?

Here's why;

Massacre - Death toll tops 500

Israels New Middle East

Definitive Proof that Israel are targeting civlians - WARNING - some disturbing images

Is this world another planets hell?

When did we become America's lapdog?

[dagest]

Some time after Harold Wilson wasn't it? I mean that was the last time we didn't explcitlty do as we were told wasn't it?

Perhaps, people will realise just how corrupt, nefarious and nasty our "elected" leaders are.

[WTFiGO!?!]

Well I'll chip in my ''yeah, but what are we going to do?'' line.

One day maybe one day - the people will rise.....

In the mean time I'll just go for a nice cup of tea I think.

[dagest]

Well I'll chip in my ''yeah, but what are we going to do?'' line.

One day maybe one day - the people will rise.....

In the mean time I'll just go for a nice cup of tea I think.

We need to storm parliament, after all the American Revolution started after a tea party didn't it? One lump or two?

As far as revolutions go, an empty stomach is normally the unfortunate precondition for getting people out on the streets.

[Redhyde]

Definitive Proof that Israel are targeting civlians - WARNING - some disturbing images

Not found funny that...

This will continue because it's popular in America, it's the most popular thing Bush has done for agaes and has seen the approval rate rise from about 40 to near 60%. Fact is not enough people care to do anything about it.

If you want to stick one sided arguments here to stir up anger you're just escalating the problem. You and the BBC seem to be using different titles too and youre using a left wing media source in the sign of the time.

I love it when people point out the problems but not a solution.

So what do Israel do to combat Hezbollah attacks Ben? Dagest? WTFIGO? Anybody?

[dagest]

Not found funny that...

This will continue because it's popular in America, it's the most popular thing Bush has done for agaes and has seen the approval rate rise from about 40 to near 60%. Fact is not enough people care to do anything about it.

If you want to stick one sided arguments here to stir up anger you're just escalating the problem. You and the BBC seem to be using different titles too and youre using a left wing media source in the sign of the time.

I love it when people point out the problems but not a solution.

So what do Israel do to combat Hezbollah attacks Ben? Dagest? WTFIGO? Anybody?

Response? Probably something a little more appropriate and measured than the wholesale and apparently random bombing of a whole country. I don't think anybody here is on Hezbollah's side anymore than they are on the Israeli's side. Though, I would guess that Bristolborn is probably part of the US-Israel-UK axis.

I can't speak for anybody else, but innocent people losing their lives is always something to be pitied and condemned regardless of the cause.

In terms of solutions, the elimination of politicians and the power hungry would be a helpful start - it may be utopian, but as ol' Oscar said, "We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars."

[Redhyde]

I made a thread about the solutions so it doesn't clog up this one about being ashamed to be british.

[solo1bc]

Not found funny that...

This will continue because it's popular in America, it's the most popular thing Bush has done for agaes and has seen the approval rate rise from about 40 to near 60%. Fact is not enough people care to do anything about it.

If you want to stick one sided arguments here to stir up anger you're just escalating the problem. You and the BBC seem to be using different titles too and youre using a left wing media source in the sign of the time.

I love it when people point out the problems but not a solution.

So what do Israel do to combat Hezbollah attacks Ben? Dagest? WTFIGO? Anybody?

I'm not trying to 'stir up anger' redhyde. As dagest correctly pointed out, it will take a few empty stomachs for that to happen unfortunately.

I was merely voicing my own anger. Not at Israel as I've done that before but at our (British governments) stance considering what is happening in Lebanon.

My anger that we seem to now blindly follow George Bush?! That we allow Bush/Rice etc. to talk about the 'problems and not the solutions' as you put it while women and children are deliberately being targeted by the Israeli army.

Also, what media source do you suggest that I use? Fair & Balanced Fox or Sky News?! Indymedia ok with you?

Lebanon Indymedia

Bristol Indymedia

Israel Indymedia

Israel Indymedia 2

I'll reply on your thread on what I think the solution is.

[CiderHider]

Is anyone really that nieve enough to think hezbollah will stop their bombing ??

May i remind you they are a terrorist organiztion supported and funded by Iran and Syria, who are sworn to destroy Israel, It's funny, you would think they would have a little more than Katucha rockets, which are totally harmless when you compair them to Israels arsenal which could destroy the entire middle east in the blink of an eye.

Todays bombing though has been nothing short of a massacare, someone needs to be held account for what happened this morning, how the **** can you get it so dam wrong ??!

Cease fire! Yes of course we want a cease fire, but hezbollah wont so whats the point then ? A ceasefire is incredibly unlikely, the Ineptendent has actually wound me right with their sloppy front page, totally unfair and no surprise really.

There is no soulution to this crisis that talks or ceasfires can reslove, only the comeplete annihilation of one side can ever end the War, naturally, but no diplomat or politician would ever admit this in public, this would be admitting they can't do their job and thats not a vote winner.

Israel could do themselves a favor and say "ok, we call a case fire, we'll pull out our troops to prove we mean well." will hezbola recripocate? .. don't funking think so, they have sworn along with Iran to destroy Israel and its people remember?

50 woman and children died today becuase of this pathetic bickering, I blaime Hezbola 100%, this is exactly what they want, they don't care who dies, they only with to cause terror, which they do immaculatly.

There are still so many outcomes which can happen in the middle East, some are quite disturbing, but i hate the way certain sections are so quick to condem the UK, US and Israel for not backing a cease fire, it's propoganda of the highest order, don't buy it!

I'm glad we have to balls to still stand up to terror, maybe noone else will becuase they are scared crapless of what needs to happen in order to eradicate it once and for all?

This could be the longest war in recorded History unless we see do somthing about it now, i don't think people quite realize this, expecially the countrys who are not prepaired to stand up to global Islamic extremism.

[bristolborn_and_red]

Is anyone really that nieve enough to think hezbollah will stop their bombing ??

May i remind you they are a terrorist organiztion supported and funded by Iran and Syria, who are sworn to destroy Israel, It's funny, you would think they would have a little more than Katucha rockets, which are totally harmless when you compair them to Israels arsenal which could destroy the entire middle east in the blink of an eye.

Todays bombing though has been nothing short of a massacare, someone needs to be held account for what happened this morning, how the **** can you get it so dam wrong ??!

Cease fire! Yes of course we want a cease fire, but hezbollah wont so whats the point then ? A ceasefire is incredibly unlikely, the Ineptendent has actually wound me right with their sloppy front page, totally unfair and no surprise really.

There is no soulution to this crisis that talks or ceasfires can reslove, only the comeplete annihilation of one side can ever end the War, naturally, but no diplomat or politician would ever admit this in public, this would be admitting they can't do their job and thats not a vote winner.

Israel could do themselves a favor and say "ok, we call a case fire, we'll pull out our troops to prove we mean well." will hezbola recripocate? .. don't funking think so, they have sworn along with Iran to destroy Israel and its people remember?

50 woman and children died today becuase of this pathetic bickering, I blaime Hezbola 100%, this is exactly what they want, they don't care who dies, they only with to cause terror, which they do immaculatly.

There are still so many outcomes which can happen in the middle East, some are quite disturbing, but i hate the way certain sections are so quick to condem the UK, US and Israel for not backing a cease fire, it's propoganda of the highest order, don't buy it!

I'm glad we have to balls to still stand up to terror, maybe noone else will becuase they are scared crapless of what needs to happen in order to eradicate it once and for all?

This could be the longest war in recorded History unless we see do somthing about it now, i don't think people quite realize this, expecially the countrys who are not prepaired to stand up to global Islamic extremism.

Well said and beware August 21st 2006.

[Nibor]

Is anyone really that nieve enough to think hezbollah will stop their bombing ??

May i remind you they are a terrorist organiztion supported and funded by Iran and Syria, who are sworn to destroy Israel, It's funny, you would think they would have a little more than Katucha rockets, which are totally harmless when you compair them to Israels arsenal which could destroy the entire middle east in the blink of an eye.

Todays bombing though has been nothing short of a massacare, someone needs to be held account for what happened this morning, how the **** can you get it so dam wrong ??!

Cease fire! Yes of course we want a cease fire, but hezbollah wont so whats the point then ? A ceasefire is incredibly unlikely, the Ineptendent has actually wound me right with their sloppy front page, totally unfair and no surprise really.

There is no soulution to this crisis that talks or ceasfires can reslove, only the comeplete annihilation of one side can ever end the War, naturally, but no diplomat or politician would ever admit this in public, this would be admitting they can't do their job and thats not a vote winner.

Israel could do themselves a favor and say "ok, we call a case fire, we'll pull out our troops to prove we mean well." will hezbola recripocate? .. don't funking think so, they have sworn along with Iran to destroy Israel and its people remember?

50 woman and children died today becuase of this pathetic bickering, I blaime Hezbola 100%, this is exactly what they want, they don't care who dies, they only with to cause terror, which they do immaculatly.

There are still so many outcomes which can happen in the middle East, some are quite disturbing, but i hate the way certain sections are so quick to condem the UK, US and Israel for not backing a cease fire, it's propoganda of the highest order, don't buy it!

I'm glad we have to balls to still stand up to terror, maybe noone else will becuase they are scared crapless of what needs to happen in order to eradicate it once and for all?

This could be the longest war in recorded History unless we see do somthing about it now, i don't think people quite realize this, expecially the countrys who are not prepaired to stand up to global Islamic extremism.

This attitude is what got us many years of terrorism in Northern Ireland.

It was only when people took a more enlightened approach and tried to address the underlying causes that fuelled the terrorists hate that progress was made.

[solo1bc]

May i remind you they are a terrorist organiztion supported and funded by Iran and Syria, who are sworn to destroy Israel

Why are they a terrorist organisation? They certainly don't see themselves that way and may I remind you one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

Hezbollah only came into existance to expel Israel from Southern Lebanon. I'm not saying they haven't been part of terrorist activities but so have the governments of Israel & the United States so why single them out as 'terrorists' and not the other?

Todays bombing though has been nothing short of a massacare, someone needs to be held account for what happened this morning, how the **** can you get it so dam wrong ??!

Israel 'seem' to be deliberatly targeting civilians so who says they got it wrong. They really don't seem to care who or what they destroy.

Cease fire! Yes of course we want a cease fire, but hezbollah wont so whats the point then ? A ceasefire is incredibly unlikely, the Ineptendent has actually wound me right with their sloppy front page, totally unfair and no surprise really.

This isn't about what Hezbollah want for ****s sake! Who cares! The independent country of Lebanon is being systematically (jeez, spell check has ruined me!) destroyed so what does what Hezbollah want have to do with it.

Does Hezbollah use the International Airport? No, so why destroy it.

Does Hezbollah have warships and submarines? No, so why destroy the ports and blockade the entire country of medical supplies?

Are entire suburbs and villages full of Hezbollah fighters? No, so why destroy them indiscriminantly?

Or is it ok to just bomb the carp out of another country to make a point? You're not Dubya in disguise are you?!

There is no soulution to this crisis that talks or ceasfires can reslove, only the comeplete annihilation of one side can ever end the War, naturally, but no diplomat or politician would ever admit this in public, this would be admitting they can't do their job and thats not a vote winner.

Israel could do themselves a favor and say "ok, we call a case fire, we'll pull out our troops to prove we mean well." will hezbola recripocate? .. don't funking think so, they have sworn along with Iran to destroy Israel and its people remember?

Why you 'don't funking think so'?? Because their 'crazy arabs' right? Do you even know why the kidnapped the Israeli soldiers in the first place?

In my opinion, if Israel complied with UN resolutions regarding not only prisoner exchanges but also the state of Palestine then Hezbollah & Syria will certainly rescind their declaration for the destruction of Israel. They don't hate Israel just for the sake of it you know.

As for Iran then I can't say! That guy is a nutter with major 'short man' complex!

50 woman and children died today becuase of this pathetic bickering, I blaime Hezbola 100%, this is exactly what they want, they don't care who dies, they only with to cause terror, which they do immaculatly.

That is one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever heard! You blame Hezbollah for the Israeli's extreme aggression and the indiscriminate bombing of woman and children?!

By this logic then Hezbollah are the ones who want 'terror' and not Israel who are attacking an entire country of over 3 million people (over 1 million of which have now been displaced from thier homes by the way - some of them to my spare bedroom!)?

You clearly know nothing about Hezbollah or any other human being for that matter.

Who's causing Terror? Hezbollah are firing rockets sure but Israel is terrorising an entire nation! And please don't tell me that they aren't because my family is directly involved!

Sure, Hezbollah 'started it' but that justifies the reaction from Israel in your eyes?!

There are still so many outcomes which can happen in the middle East, some are quite disturbing, but i hate the way certain sections are so quick to condem the UK, US and Israel for not backing a cease fire, it's propoganda of the highest order, don't buy it!

What do you 'buy' then? That Israel is 'defending' itself by killing over 500 civilians?

I'm glad we have to balls to still stand up to terror, maybe noone else will becuase they are scared crapless of what needs to happen in order to eradicate it once and for all?

This could be the longest war in recorded History unless we see do somthing about it now, i don't think people quite realize this, expecially the countrys who are not prepaired to stand up to global Islamic extremism.

Standing up to the terror that you yourself have created in perpetual war! Brilliant idea, I'm glad too! :Crazy:

This attitude is what got us many years of terrorism in Northern Ireland.

It was only when people took a more enlightened approach and tried to address the underlying causes that fuelled the terrorists hate that progress was made.

Thank you Nibor. I completely agree & I've said so in another topic about 'a solution' on the non-footy.

[bristolborn_and_red]

Oh dear Ciderhider looks like you're the latest to be played the racist card. The apologists regard it as their trump card. By the way Benny boy is a muslim convert and is married to an arab. No bias there then.

[Redhyde]

Also, what media source do you suggest that I use? Fair & Balanced Fox or Sky News?! Indymedia ok with you?

Lebanon Indymedia

Bristol Indymedia

Israel Indymedia

Israel Indymedia 2

I'll reply on your thread on what I think the solution is.

I think giving unbalanced media views does cause trouble yes. I'd prefer a range of views on the subject rather than reading exactly what i think. No of course i don't want a Fox news type. But then i wont listen much to sign of the times for the same reasons. While you mock one as unbalanced you're happy to slant titles that don't exist for stories.

[solo1bc]

Oh dear Ciderhider looks like you're the latest to be played the racist card. The apologists regard it as their trump card. By the way Benny boy is a muslim convert and is married to an arab. No bias there then.

I'm a buddhist so

you're happy to slant titles that don't exist for stories.

Sorry if I'm being thick but can you explain that to me? So is the Israeli Indymedia a balanced view or not?

[Redhyde]

I'm a buddhist so

Sorry if I'm being thick but can you explain that to me? So is the Israeli Indymedia a balanced view or not?

Yeah they're acceptable as a non slanted news system as far as i know, but i don't know who runs it and what agenda they have. But the majority of Israelis are still in favour of the action although obviously against actions that lead to the deaths of "innocents." It's just one source and i'm sure you could find othe independant media saying otherwise.

What i didn't like was the definitive proof that Iraelis are targeting civilians with a broken link which is highly suspicious. Also putting massacre as the link name to an article which contains nothing of the sort.

[solo1bc]

Yeah they're acceptable as a non slanted news system as far as i know, but i don't know who runs it and what agenda they have. But the majority of Israelis are still in favour of the action although obviously against actions that lead to the deaths of "innocents." It's just one source and i'm sure you could find othe independant media saying otherwise.

So better the devil you know with the mainstream media?

At the end of the day, you've got to get your news from somewhere and I've heard first hand accounts from friends who's families have been attacked while on the road or in their houses.

An entire family was wiped out yesterday who my wife grew up with. There not terrorists by the way... they run a bakery!

What i didn't like was the definitive proof that Iraelis are targeting civilians with a broken link which is highly suspicious. Also putting massacre as the link name to an article which contains nothing of the sort.

That's a fair comment and it was an inflamatory title to the BBC link so I'll grant you that and apologise... BUT I would suggest that the killing of 50 innocent civilians would constitute a massacre which is what the BBC article was about no?

For the video then you could have just gone to the host website (your favourite - Signs of the Times) and looked for the video though?

Anyway, here's the link again and a couple of others... Some VERY disturbing images so PLEASE BE WARNED

Checked the link and it works... Video source is ITV!

Lebanon Pictures - WARNING - VERY DISTURBING IMAGES

[bristolborn_and_red]

I'm a buddhist so

Sorry if I'm being thick but can you explain that to me? So is the Israeli Indymedia a balanced view or not?

No you're not. You're a muslim. You've said it on this forum yourself. But lying comes easy to you.

[solo1bc]

No you're not. You're a muslim. You've said it on this forum yourself. But lying comes easy to you.

I've also very clearly (and repeatedly) said on this forum that I only converted to get married for my mother-in-laws sake. Why rock the boat when it's basically meaningless to me?!

I do stick up for the average muslim against blatant racist views such as your own because it's the right thing to do and because I live amongst them and the vast majority are just normal people. Apparently for you that makes me pro-muslim but for your future reference I would do the same if you were generalising and slating other entire groups of people (with the possible exception of the French!)

For the record I believe the muslim faith is just as silly as any other religion. I'm pro-people!

Also for the record, I'm an athiest or an agnostic depending on how stoned I am!

You can choose to keep ignoring that as you do with everything else you don't want to hear in your continuous campaign to demonise muslims and arabs. Seems to come VERY easy to you.

[bristolborn_and_red]

I've also very clearly (and repeatedly) said on this forum that I only converted to get married for my mother-in-laws sake. Why rock the boat when it's basically meaningless to me?!

I do stick up for the average muslim against blatant racist views such as your own because it's the right thing to do and because I live amongst them and the vast majority are just normal people. Apparently for you that makes me pro-muslim but for your future reference I would do the same if you were generalising and slating other entire groups of people (with the possible exception of the French!)

For the record I believe the muslim faith is just as silly as any other religion. I'm pro-people!

Also for the record, I'm an athiest or an agnostic depending on how stoned I am!

You can choose to keep ignoring that as you do with everything else you don't want to hear in your continuous campaign to demonise muslims and arabs. Seems to come VERY easy to you.

I don't know how anyone can be racist against muslims when the muslims are not a race. The old race card that you love to play against anyone who realises what a load of bullox you peddle. :Crazy:

[Nibor]

I don't know how anyone can be racist against muslims when the muslims are not a race. The old race card that you love to play against anyone who realises what a load of bullox you peddle. :Crazy:

So you're incapable of actually debating the issue sensibly and have to resort to childish pedantry? Fair enough.

Just to correct you, every single recognised English dictionary carries a definition of "race" that includes people united by common history and culture.

Therefore racist is a perfectly correct word to use in that context, and regardless of that we all understood what he meant by it, just as we equally understood your inability to answer sensibly.

[solo1bc]

I don't know how anyone can be racist against muslims when the muslims are not a race. The old race card that you love to play against anyone who realises what a load of bullox you peddle. :Crazy:

What a convenient, repetitive and frankly, boring, 'out' for you. What a surprise to see you completely ignore what you don't want to hear and focus on a pedantic point like my misuse of a word?!

Your right though... 'Blatantly bigoted & ignorant views' would perhaps be clearer so "You the man!"

If anyone is guilty of 'peddling' anything on this forum its yourself (and Malone, but that's about Pims so harmless in my opinion!) as I never see you post ANYTHING other than ANOTHER attack on muslims.

When was the last time you even posted on the City forum or about ANY other subject?

[bucksred]

Ben, in all your shame etc etc

Hezbollah has been looking for this happen, knowing the way Israel responds. so why don't the heroes of the Islamic revolution build shelters for their people. Israel built their back in the 50's in the north, for exactly that reason. Hezbollah aint interested in that. No they prefer to hide among civilians rather than meet their "martyrs" death face to face with the IDF

Now me if my "protectors" failed to ensure my families safety before they picked a fight with Israel, i'd be pyssed off, with them as well as Israel.

and by the way I think Israel has gone way too far, but I can understand WHY they started it, and they should seriously think before they do any more

So better the devil you know with the mainstream media?

At the end of the day, you've got to get your news from somewhere and I've heard first hand accounts from friends who's families have been attacked while on the road or in their houses.

An entire family was wiped out yesterday who my wife grew up with. There not terrorists by the way... they run a bakery!

That's a fair comment and it was an inflamatory title to the BBC link so I'll grant you that and apologise... BUT I would suggest that the killing of 50 innocent civilians would constitute a massacre which is what the BBC article was about no?

For the video then you could have just gone to the host website (your favourite - Signs of the Times) and looked for the video though?

Anyway, here's the link again and a couple of others... Some VERY disturbing images so PLEASE BE WARNED

Checked the link and it works... Video source is ITV!

Lebanon Pictures - WARNING - VERY DISTURBING IMAGES

What about the Israeli railways workers murdered by Hezbollah in Haifa, and the Israeli Arabs killed in Nazareth, by their bigotted brothers in Hezbollah Ben?

The body count is smaller cos Israelis knew war was coming and have been safe in bunkers, unlike the people "protected" by the Hezbollah heroes, firing Katyushas from houses........

[Dorset_Cider]

I am a proud Englishman. I love my country. I love my heritage. I think we have the potential to lead the world in the next century.

Why then am I so ashamed today to be British?

Here's why;

Massacre - Death toll tops 500

Israels New Middle East

Definitive Proof that Israel are targeting civlians - WARNING - some disturbing images

Is this world another planets hell?

When did we become America's lapdog?

British.........?

I'm ashamed of the 'British' people of this country that voted Blair & Shite Labour in for another term thinking that he was the best option for our country............ damn the lot of you!

We needed strong leadership in the international field after the 11th September........ and you (maybe not you ) fell for how 'Great ' the U.K economy was doing and voted in Blair & co again............. shows how poor politics really has become................ a bit like a lot of pop music really

Blair is....... not the answer for anyone who gives a damn left, right or centre...... he is a poor leader.

Stands back blue touch paper well lit............... Slag me if you like....... I'd never vote for him or his party.

[tinman-is-god]

As much as i don't condone the attacks by Israel, the 100% blame that they receive for this conflict is ridiculous. Do Al-Jazeera own Channel 4 out of interest? The bias is absurd.

The fact is, Israel have over-reacted BUT the Hizbollah attacks were an act of war. This is an organiastion that wants Israel wiped off the map, and their official website says that Israel is good for only one thing- all jews in the same place, making it easier to know where to attack. Seem like a peace-loving, 'freedom-fighting' group to me.

Hizbollah has launched 1600 missiles into Israel, killed over 50 civilians and kidnapped two Israeli soldiers and want Israel destroyed. I cannot excuse the actions of Israel in Gaza, but in this case, we must understand that Hizbollah started this conflict, knowing full well that it would result in innocent Lebanese civilians being killed, and these innocent people are now being used as a political tool by a terrorist organisation.

In 2000, Israel agreed to leave their occupied area of South Lebanon on the premise that attacks/kidnapping would stop. Hizbollah completely ignored this and began a war that Israel cannot afford not to fight. Israel have completely messed up their attack, their bombs landing (clearly) in the wrong areas and it has been a strategic disastar. But we must understand the full picture- if Israel didn't react, who knows what the state of the Israeli state would be now.

The blame of the European media upon Israel is predictable, yet boring. When there is war, we need to realise that there is two sides to every story. Hizbollah are to blame for this war, the terrorist organisation that wants Israel removed started this war, and must be held to account.

Also, there is constant talk of a ceasefire. Now of course, I would welcome that, as would almost all sane people. However, the emphasis is on Israel to cease fighting, yet people seem to forget that a cease fire would involve Hizbollah to cease fire too, which is something that may actually be logistically harder to arrange. The UN don't negotiate with known terrorist organisations, so how exactly are they going to get an evil organisation to stop attempting the murder of innocent Jews that they would rather were dead?

[Nibor]

the Hizbollah attacks were an act of war

If this were true (and it isn't, the attacks were an act of terrorism) then why have Israel conducted a war against the Lebanon then?

but in this case, we must understand that Hizbollah started this conflict

No, they did not. No one side started this conflict, and it's the basic inability to appreciate that fact that is at the heart of it. Every action by either side can be "justified" by a previous action of the other side going back for millenia.

If Israel wants to stop terrorism and have peace and security then why is it following a policy which has singularly failed to do so for 50 years instead of the only policy which has ever stopped it? That is, to take away the reasons for the resentment that the terrorists use to recruit.

if Israel didn't react, who knows what the state of the Israeli state would be now.

If the British government had reacted to Real IRA terrorism in the same manner as Israel has, would we now have relative peace in Northern Ireland?

When there is war, we need to realise that there is two sides to every story. Hizbollah are to blame for this war

Contradict yourself much?

Also, there is constant talk of a ceasefire. Now of course, I would welcome that, as would almost all sane people. However, the emphasis is on Israel to cease fighting, yet people seem to forget that a cease fire would involve Hizbollah to cease fire too, which is something that may actually be logistically harder to arrange. The UN don't negotiate with known terrorist organisations, so how exactly are they going to get an evil organisation to stop attempting the murder of innocent Jews that they would rather were dead?

So you've finally twigged that Israel is dealing with terrorism, not a war then? You cannot wage war on a terrorist organisation, it does not work. There are two ways to deal with them. You must pursue them legally as criminals and prosecute them, and you must take away the fervent hate they use to recruit with.

No terrorist organisation has ever been defeated by shelling the homes of the innocent civilians they hide amongst.

[bristolborn_and_red]

If this were true (and it isn't, the attacks were an act of terrorism) then why have Israel conducted a war against the Lebanon then?

No, they did not. No one side started this conflict, and it's the basic inability to appreciate that fact that is at the heart of it. Every action by either side can be "justified" by a previous action of the other side going back for millenia.

If Israel wants to stop terrorism and have peace and security then why is it following a policy which has singularly failed to do so for 50 years instead of the only policy which has ever stopped it? That is, to take away the reasons for the resentment that the terrorists use to recruit.

If the British government had reacted to Real IRA terrorism in the same manner as Israel has, would we now have relative peace in Northern Ireland?

Contradict yourself much?

So you've finally twigged that Israel is dealing with terrorism, not a war then? You cannot wage war on a terrorist organisation, it does not work. There are two ways to deal with them. You must pursue them legally as criminals and prosecute them, and you must take away the fervent hate they use to recruit with.

No terrorist organisation has ever been defeated by shelling the homes of the innocent civilians they hide amongst.

You have not one ounce of understanding of the Islamic jihad. You have no comprehension of Waqf. Try reading the Quran and Hadith. Read some history books on the spread of Islam. Try to find out about Dhimmitude. Look to the world now and wonder why there were attacks in:

Bali, London, Madrid, Beslan, Bombay, Etc. Continuous wars in Sudan, Somalia, Southern Russia, Kashmir and the Phillipines

Consider why the Buddhists of Thailand are subjected to weekly or even daily attacks by terrorists groups.

Ask yourself why hundreds of church's have been desecreted in Kosovo or why not one church has been built in Sarejevo since the Balkans conflict.

Ask yourself why no church's are allowed in Saudi Arabia and no Jews allowed in or why Jews are forbidden to leave countries like Yemen and Syria.

You might find an answer that begins with I.

To compare the IRA to the Jihad just shows your utter ignorance!

[Nibor]

To compare the IRA to the Jihad just shows your utter ignorance!

To confuse terrorism with religion just shows your utter prejudice.

[tinman-is-god]

If this were true (and it isn't, the attacks were an act of terrorism) then why have Israel conducted a war against the Lebanon then?

Because Hezbollah are situated in South Lebanaon, and have virtual autonomy in the region. This is where the Hezbollah terrorists are situated, and where the missiles into northern Israel are being fired from. Thats why they are attacking southern Lebanon.

No, they did not. No one side started this conflict, and it's the basic inability to appreciate that fact that is at the heart of it. Every action by either side can be "justified" by a previous action of the other side going back for millenia.

If Israel wants to stop terrorism and have peace and security then why is it following a policy which has singularly failed to do so for 50 years instead of the only policy which has ever stopped it? That is, to take away the reasons for the resentment that the terrorists use to recruit.

Its easy to forget that Israel is the homeland of the Jews who have sought refuge. As much as i do not condone a great deal of Israel's actions, it is only natural that a state will become reactionary if it is surronded by Iran and Syria, both of whom litreally want Israel wiped off the map. All the 'Muslim' states surronding Israel offer a very real threat to her mere existence, so we have to acknowledge that it isn't just Israel involved in the conflict.

Contradict yourself much?

Not in the slightest. All i am saying is that there is two sides to every story. Watch BBC, C4 news and all you see is one side- how Israel are demolishing a nation, without the news reports actually telling us much about why they are doing it. Watch the news mate, and tell me that there isn't bias in the reporting.

No terrorist organisation has ever been defeated by shelling the homes of the innocent civilians they hide amongst

Did you even read my post? Don't make me out to be an apologist for Israeli strategic errors, try reading what i actually said about the bombings, all i am saying is that it is naive to believe that this war is purely Israel's doing.

So you've finally twigged that Israel is dealing with terrorism, not a war then? You cannot wage war on a terrorist organisation, it does not work. There are two ways to deal with them. You must pursue them legally as criminals and prosecute them, and you must take away the fervent hate they use to recruit with.

I agree, lets pursue them. That would work it out. If we pursued terrorists, they would stop their actions, sit up and think- my weren't we all a bit silly? How exactly would you 'pursue' them? And how would you even begin to reason with an organisation that wants the destruction of Israel. Also, saying you cannot wage war on terrorists is just being padantic. War/conflict its essentially the same thing.

[Nibor]

Because Hezbollah are situated in South Lebanaon, and have virtual autonomy in the region. This is where the Hezbollah terrorists are situated, and where the missiles into northern Israel are being fired from. Thats why they are attacking southern Lebanon.

So what? How many Lebanese people in Southern Lebanon are actually terrorists? According to the Israeli's this is about making their homeland secure and safe... how the hell is what they're doing achieving that? Have less Israelis died since the start of the invasion?

Its easy to forget that Israel is the homeland of the Jews who have sought refuge. As much as i do not condone a great deal of Israel's actions, it is only natural that a state will become reactionary if it is surronded by Iran and Syria, both of whom litreally want Israel wiped off the map. All the 'Muslim' states surronding Israel offer a very real threat to her mere existence, so we have to acknowledge that it isn't just Israel involved in the conflict.

It's also easy to forget that Israel was created on land which has also been the homeland of Palestinians for as long as it has Jews. That's the root of the conflict, and the root of the arab nations' hostility. Your view that this conflict is caused by Hezbollah is short sighted and fundamentally flawed because you ignore this.

Not in the slightest. All i am saying is that there is two sides to every story. Watch BBC, C4 news and all you see is one side- how Israel are demolishing a nation, without the news reports actually telling us much about why they are doing it. Watch the news mate, and tell me that there isn't bias in the reporting.

Did you even read my post? Don't make me out to be an apologist for Israeli strategic errors, try reading what i actually said about the bombings, all i am saying is that it is naive to believe that this war is purely Israel's doing.

You made a point about there being two sides then squarely blamed one of them in the next sentence, if that isn't a completely clear contradiction then I don't know what is.

I've never claimed the war was purely Israel's doing, just that their reaction is completely disproportionate and their actions exacerbate the situation and prolong the deadly one-upmanship that has long characterized this conflict. Terrorists fire some rockets, Israel shells some civillians, terrorists suicide bomb a bus, Israel bulldozes houses... and on and on... All it does is give the terrorists a pool of hatred to recruit from.

We saw EXACTLY the same thing in Northern Ireland where we used oppression ineffectively for decades at the costs of thousands of lives on BOTH sides and it was only when a different approach was taken that any progress was made.

I agree, lets pursue them. That would work it out. If we pursued terrorists, they would stop their actions, sit up and think- my weren't we all a bit silly? How exactly would you 'pursue' them?

The same way you pursue any highly organized dangerous criminals. Intelligence, investigation, and arrest. Where are they getting their arms from? Their funding? Someone's breaking international laws to do that, find them and trace it. Police forces the world over are capable of this.

And how would you even begin to reason with an organisation that wants the destruction of Israel.

I didn't suggest reasoning with them, I said take away the reasons for the hatred. That means, amongst other things, stop creating a fertile breeding ground for extremists by shelling the crap out of them.

The tiny number of terrorists WANTED this to happen and Israel is playing right into their hands with their reaction, by increasing the hatred.

The massive number of non-terrorists DID NOT WANT this to happen but may well end up hating Israel for blowing up their homes.

What is hard to understand about that?

Also, saying you cannot wage war on terrorists is just being padantic. War/conflict its essentially the same thing.

No it isn't pedantic, and no it isn't the same thing. Wars are between nation states. That's the whole point you seem to be ignoring, the terrorists represent a tiny fraction of the Lebanese population so invading the country is disproportionate and certainly will not do anything to help make Israel safer or more secure, quite the opposite.