Not Since 1994

[BS10 RED]

I don't really know much all about it because am sick and tired of having the news on and all you get is more people dead in the middle east or middle east that. I don't get it why do we have to get involed there not bombing our country so just leave them to get on with it themselfs. If they wanna kill eachother then so be it we should just stay out of it.

[bucksred]

I really can't be bothered to sort through that mess of a reply to answer each point. Can't you learn how to use the quote feature properly?

Frankly, I don't know how to reply to your answers anyway. I could go through it and refute every single reply because in most cases your talking utter bullocks but as you just ignore whatever facts I put in front of you and believe whatever you want regardless (as in your statement above) whats the point?

Almost 90% of Lebanese and the vast majortiy of other Arab states see Hezbollah as a legitimate resistance movement but hey, whatever right? They're just Arabs who live there and everyone you know (In bloody buckinghamshire or from bloody Zimbabwe! ) thinks they're terrorists so we'll just go with that!?

Ridiculous!

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh the arch apologist for Islam..............I don't know anyone in a considerable varied cross section of British, Zim, Sarf Efrican, German, and Dutch society who DOES see Hezbollahs murderers as "Freedom Fighters".........as to the lack of quoting skills, sorry mate aint a computer nerd. As for Bloody Buckinghamshire, unless you count Jermaine Lindasy (The Edgeware Street bomber on 7/7, fork all ever happens here.

Talking bullocks, if you say so. Your choice in our Western Way of life. wouldnt be the case under sharia law.

I'd certainly be locked up, under its delights . Perhaps it why I despise Religious bigots, no matter what pox ridden religion they profess to follow. and their apologists too.

[solo1bc]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh the arch apologist for Islam..............I don't know anyone in a considerable varied cross section of British, Zim, Sarf Efrican, German, and Dutch society who DOES see Hezbollahs murderers as "Freedom Fighters".........

I don't remember mentioning Islam in this debate so what are you talking about?! This is a political discussion in case you haven't noticed!

Oh, yeah, you're falling back on Bristolborn's nice little safety net whenever someone points out he's talking nonsense and ignorning the parts of a post that he doesn't want to answer.... I'm an apologist for Islam despite my REPEATED comments to the contrary (which you both conveniently ignore!)

I thought you had more respect for your own opinions than that to be honest.

Still, though, I'll go with the terminogly that 90% of the people who actually live here use rather than your German, Dutch & South African mates! Seems like common sense to me so please EXPLAIN why I'm an apologist for that?!

as to the lack of quoting skills, sorry mate aint a computer nerd. As for Bloody Buckinghamshire, unless you count Jermaine Lindasy (The Edgeware Street bomber on 7/7, fork all ever happens here.

You don't need to be a computer nerd. It's just copy and paste so whats the problem? Convenient for you though I guess as then people can't argue against each of your incorrect points?

You contradict yourself so much in your last post that it's starting to get a bit laughable to be honest and that was strictly reserved to the neocon muppet before. Congratulations!

You state that Israel should have made things clearer that it was only attacking Hezbollah and not Lebanon but then state that the airport and ports are legitimate targets despite the fact that Hezbollah have no access to either?!

Talking bullocks, if you say so. Your choice in our Western Way of life. wouldnt be the case under sharia law.

I'd certainly be locked up, under its delights . Perhaps it why I despise Religious bigots, no matter what pox ridden religion they profess to follow. and their apologists too.

Yet another of Bristolborns favourite evasive answers. "I have the right of free speach to make incorrect statements but under Sharia law you'd be arrested!" What does that mean?! Come on Bucks, I really thought better of you. You despise religious bigots you say and yet you've tried to turn this debate into a religious one? Or are Muslim countries who follow Sharia law the only countries without freedom of speech?!

[bristolborn_and_red]

I don't remember mentioning Islam in this debate so what are you talking about?! This is a political discussion in case you haven't noticed!

Oh, yeah, you're falling back on Bristolborn's nice little safety net whenever someone points out he's talking nonsense and ignorning the parts of a post that he doesn't want to answer.... I'm an apologist for Islam despite my REPEATED comments to the contrary (which you both conveniently ignore!)

I thought you had more respect for your own opinions than that to be honest.

Still, though, I'll go with the terminogly that 90% of the people who actually live here use rather than your German, Dutch & South African mates! Seems like common sense to me so please EXPLAIN why I'm an apologist for that?!

You don't need to be a computer nerd. It's just copy and paste so whats the problem? Convenient for you though I guess as then people can't argue against each of your incorrect points?

You contradict yourself so much in your last post that it's starting to get a bit laughable to be honest and that was strictly reserved to the neocon muppet before. Congratulations!

You state that Israel should have made things clearer that it was only attacking Hezbollah and not Lebanon but then state that the airport and ports are legitimate targets despite the fact that Hezbollah have no access to either?!

Yet another of Bristolborns favourite evasive answers. "I have the right of free speach to make incorrect statements but under Sharia law you'd be arrested!" What does that mean?! Come on Bucks, I really thought better of you. You despise religious bigots you say and yet you've tried to turn this debate into a religious one? Or are Muslim countries who follow Sharia law the only countries without freedom of speech?!

Whatever next Bucks, cue benny boys accusations of bigotry, racism (he seems to forget his anti-semetism), the last resort of the apologist. By the way, benny boy, this is a religious war! Hezbollah are just adhering to the islamic ideology of waqf. Once muslim land, always muslim land. Thats why al-qaida rant on about Al-Andalucia (Spain). Hamas and the muslim brotherhood also. Israel was proclaimed a waqf by the caliph umar, so it has to be taken back.

Not an islamic apologist eh, benny boy. I seem to remember you on this forum after the London bombings (the smoke hadn't even cleared) coming out with an array of apologist statements. A quisling you are.

[solo1bc]

Whatever next Bucks, cue benny boys accusations of bigotry, racism (he seems to forget his anti-semetism), the last resort of the apologist. By the way, benny boy, this is a religious war! Hezbollah are just adhering to the islamic ideology of waqf. Once muslim land, always muslim land. Thats why al-qaida rant on about Al-Andalucia (Spain). Hamas and the muslim brotherhood also. Israel was proclaimed a waqf by the caliph umar, so it has to be taken back.

Please prove JUST ONE of your statements. Why break the habit of a lifetime though I guess?

Also I'd strongly suggest that you learn what anti-semetic means before labelling people with it.

Once you've done that then I'll debate you till the cows come home. Until then, please go away and let the grown ups talk.

:Wave:

[bucksred]

I don't remember mentioning Islam in this debate so what are you talking about?! This is a political discussion in case you haven't noticed!

Oh, yeah, you're falling back on Bristolborn's nice little safety net whenever someone points out he's talking nonsense and ignorning the parts of a post that he doesn't want to answer.... I'm an apologist for Islam despite my REPEATED comments to the contrary (which you both conveniently ignore!)

I thought you had more respect for your own opinions than that to be honest.

Yet another of Bristolborns favourite evasive answers. "I have the right of free speach to make incorrect statements but under Sharia law you'd be arrested!" What does that mean?! Come on Bucks, I really thought better of you. You despise religious bigots you say and yet you've tried to turn this debate into a religious one? Or are Muslim countries who follow Sharia law the only countries without freedom of speech?!

First time I mentioned it about you Ben......seems to me it aint far off the truth. I wonder if this had been say Darfur you would have had as much interest. I do, and I see precious little interest there, or on the assault on the Dinka, in Sudan, or the operations to dispossess the Ndebele, and dissident Shona in my country, or the illegal occupation of Tibet to name but a few. MOST Muslim countries do not have freedom of speech, and fewer have democratic governments- Lebanon, and Palestine both have democratic govermnments, although Hamas background makes it difficult to find anyone to deal with them. sharia, appears to me to be deeply undemocratic, indeed all forms of militant Islam do. No democracy, no interest for me. don't do dictatorships of any form. We reject Christian fanatics.........does Islam in all honesty?

While you accept some faults in Islam, you find few faults. I on the other hand DETEST ALL RELIGIOUS BIGOTS, political fanatics, demagogues, rabble rousers, whereever they come from, who ever they beleive in, practice the faith of, racist loonies. that should be clear enough. I keep a wide circle of friends because of my lifestyle, and my background

You might actually enjoy the fact virtually every part of my lifestyle would be banned under any kind of hard core Islamic religion. some moroccan metal heads were brought to court because they listened to (among others Iron Maiden)...morrocco is I undestand it virtually a western Democracy

My dislike of organized religion would be a problem too. I don't do being told what to do by these people.

[solo1bc]

First time I mentioned it about you Ben......seems to me it aint far off the truth. I wonder if this had been say Darfur you would have had as much interest. I do, and I see precious little interest there, or on the assault on the Dinka, in Sudan, or the operations to dispossess the Ndebele, and dissident Shona in my country, or the illegal occupation of Tibet to name but a few. MOST Muslim countries do not have freedom of speech, and fewer have democratic governments- Lebanon, and Palestine both have democratic govermnments, although Hamas background makes it difficult to find anyone to deal with them. sharia, appears to me to be deeply undemocratic, indeed all forms of militant Islam do. No democracy, no interest for me. don't do dictatorships of any form. We reject Christian fanatics.........does Islam in all honesty?

While you accept some faults in Islam, you find few faults. I on the other hand DETEST ALL RELIGIOUS BIGOTS, political fanatics, demagogues, rabble rousers, whereever they come from, who ever they beleive in, practice the faith of, racist loonies. that should be clear enough. I keep a wide circle of friends because of my lifestyle, and my background

You might actually enjoy the fact virtually every part of my lifestyle would be banned under any kind of hard core Islamic religion. some moroccan metal heads were brought to court because they listened to (among others Iron Maiden)...morrocco is I undestand it virtually a western Democracy

My dislike of organized religion would be a problem too. I don't do being told what to do by these people.

I'll grant you that I do get a bit defensive on this forum but I have clearly stated MANY, MANY times that I can't stand any religion and that I have MANY, MANY problems with Islam in particular. If you want to discuss it another thread then no problem but this is a political topic so why did you make it a religious one?

I will admit to being defensive but with the drivel posted by the neocon muppet I would think it's understandable?

If my defensive stance against constant mistruths and generalisation comes off as apologetics then it's misunderstood.

Perhaps this will help you understand my reaction when I'm called an apologist for calling Hezbollah a resistance movement as opposed to a terrorist organisation? That's a strictly political statement based on the opinions of the MAJORITY of people who actually live with Hezbollah not view it from 5000 miles away. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with religion so again, please explain why I'm an apologist for that statement and why you've brought religion into this discussion?

I've called Hezbollah - wrong, stupid, childish & misguided all on this forum in the last week so again, where are the apologetics in that?

I do believe that the zionist movement is an evil one. Evil for muslims, jews, druze and everybody else involved. It has corrupted everything from the Jews & Semites (look it up Bristolborn!) of Israel to the Evangelical Christians of America.

I do believe that fundamentalist islam is a disgusting & backwards world view and is responsible for many evil acts in the world. It's an enemy of progress, free speech and human rights. Again, I've said this repeatedly and I really don't think I can be any clearer than that!

However, I also believe that Israel are the wrong in this situation. Their reaction is insane, illogical and the destruction of an entire country based on the kidnapping of two soldiers is moronic and does NOTHING to increase their security or defend their country. In fact they've just increased the fundamentalists recruiting tenfold and weakened the moderate arabs to the point of silence.

If you want to call Hezbollah terrorists then fine, go ahead. BUT you can't do that and then say Israel is just defending itself! If Hezbollah are terrorists for firing rockets indiscriminantly into northern Israel then the State of Israel is a terrorist state for the killing of 1000 people (of which the UN claims 1/3 are children under the age of 12), the destruction of an entire countries infrastructure, the use of illegal weapons & the displacement of over 1 million from their homes. And that's before we even mention Palestine!

Please explain why Hezbollah are terrorists (apart from 'whatever, thats what all my mates call it') and the IDF isn't?

I'd also like to understand why you are talking about Sharia law? What has that got to do with this discussion?

PS. I have physically protested about the brutal occupation of Tibet (have you?) so you'll have to excuse me for not discussing all of the worlds ills in one thread!

PPS. Thank you for arguing the post and not the poster. See how the grown ups do it Bristolborn?!

[bucksred]

Ben, givens Israels history, it surely cant be a surprise their reaction, And surprisingly, most Jews are both secular, and highly cynical about religion, indeed their variety of fanatic goes round picking up pieces of blown up Jew :Confused13: Nothing like genocide to focus the mind........

And don't s'pose you'd care to comment on the Non Standard Katyusha rockets being lobbed at Israel, filled with ball bearings fer forks sake...........I can assure you, ball bearing filled warheads not OEM with either 150, 180 or 230mm Katyushas.as designed orginally they were a concentrated barrage, designed to stupify the enemy front line, with chemical weapons of high explosive....not counterattack weapons, and I think they are doing a great job of killing & maiming fellow Arabs in Israel/west Bank :Confused13:

Grant you Israels actions have not exactly helped the situation........but hey we aint lived in a war zone all our lives, how can we pontificate unless we have. Lack of PROPER leadership, from the Arab States helps not one bit either. corruption/dictatorship/secret police/religious nutcases.

question what do you mean by illegal wapons, cos the previously mentioned Katyushas might fall into that category, as are mines laid by both sides, but what else? :Confused13:

IDF terrorists....not according to the Geneva Convention "A Formed organised body of men under military leadership and discipline..thats defined as Military Personnell, as are Hezbollah fighters if they are also fighting in uniform. however they fall out of that description when they wear the attire of the local population, and wear no clear insignia to define them as official troops.they then are described as partisans, terrorists, franc Tireurs, bandits (depending on the force they are fighting) As per my Geneva Convention brifing as to definitions-not word perfect, but close enough...the last bit my added selection of words used by various military over the years to describe them..not mine personally...terrs is mine.

On Tibet, yes once. Pointless exercise however. China is a great help to African progress you see.....Bob Mugabes chief supporter these days.........Tibet don't have a hope sadly....Prefer to concentrate on my home continent.

Lebanons curse is Syria & Israel for neighbours on the crossroads of the most intractible confict of modern times.

[solo1bc]

Ben, givens Israels history, it surely cant be a surprise their reaction, And surprisingly, most Jews are both secular, and highly cynical about religion, indeed their variety of fanatic goes round picking up pieces of blown up Jew :Confused13: Nothing like genocide to focus the mind........

And don't s'pose you'd care to comment on the Non Standard Katyusha rockets being lobbed at Israel, filled with ball bearings fer forks sake...........I can assure you, ball bearing filled warheads not OEM with either 150, 180 or 230mm Katyushas.as designed orginally they were a concentrated barrage, designed to stupify the enemy front line, with chemical weapons of high explosive....not counterattack weapons, and I think they are doing a great job of killing & maiming fellow Arabs in Israel/west Bank :Confused13:

Grant you Israels actions have not exactly helped the situation........but hey we aint lived in a war zone all our lives, how can we pontificate unless we have. Lack of PROPER leadership, from the Arab States helps not one bit either. corruption/dictatorship/secret police/religious nutcases.

question what do you mean by illegal wapons, cos the previously mentioned Katyushas might fall into that category, as are mines laid by both sides, but what else? :Confused13:

IDF terrorists....not according to the Geneva Convention "A Formed organised body of men under military leadership and discipline..thats defined as Military Personnell, as are Hezbollah fighters if they are also fighting in uniform. however they fall out of that description when they wear the attire of the local population, and wear no clear insignia to define them as official troops.they then are described as partisans, terrorists, franc Tireurs, bandits (depending on the force they are fighting) As per my Geneva Convention brifing as to definitions-not word perfect, but close enough...the last bit my added selection of words used by various military over the years to describe them..not mine personally...terrs is mine.

On Tibet, yes once. Pointless exercise however. China is a great help to African progress you see.....Bob Mugabes chief supporter these days.........Tibet don't have a hope sadly....Prefer to concentrate on my home continent.

Lebanons curse is Syria & Israel for neighbours on the crossroads of the most intractible confict of modern times.

Once again you ignore questions and don't even have the decency to be abashed that you've called me something that I clearly am not.

Use the word terrorist is you want although the fact that Hezbollah 'do not wear a badge' seems like a silly reason to me. Personally, I prefer the fact that they've been fighting an occupier of there soverign nation for the last 20 years as a definition of a partisan/resistance fighter but hey, I'm an apologist right?!

After this discussion your political opinion means vry little to me I'm afraid. Your views on this conflict, narrow minded and obstinate dedication to a biased right wing representation of the facts, ignorance of the history of the region and consistent ignoring of questions just make it a waste of time.

I don't believe that people can't be friendly with opposing political views so I'm happy to still discuss football on the chat for matchdays but theres really no point trying to make you 'see the light'. It's shame really cos you seem like a clever bloke.

[bucksred]

Once again you ignore questions and don't even have the decency to be abashed that you've called me something that I clearly am not.

Use the word terrorist is you want although the fact that Hezbollah 'do not wear a badge' seems like a silly reason to me. Personally, I prefer the fact that they've been fighting an occupier of there soverign nation for the last 20 years as a definition of a partisan/resistance fighter but hey, I'm an apologist right?!

After this discussion your political opinion means vry little to me I'm afraid. Your views on this conflict, narrow minded and obstinate dedication to a biased right wing representation of the facts, ignorance of the history of the region and consistent ignoring of questions just make it a waste of time.

I don't believe that people can't be friendly with opposing political views so I'm happy to still discuss football on the chat for matchdays but theres really no point trying to make you 'see the light'. It's shame really cos you seem like a clever bloke.

Ben, you stand your corner, and I stand mine. Our life experiences hae left us with radically different outlooks on life. I cannot and will not accept your definition of hezbollah, and you aint ever going to accept mine. We beleive it or not do not radically differ on our view of the air attacks. I don't they are a great thing either, but I do understand their motives...don't mean I agree with them wholeheartledly, cos I don't, but in their shoes, I doubt I'd be any difference...or Lebanons either.

My head and heart tell me Hezbollah are wrong, and that Israel is OTT, but they have the right to do it.

Only way for it to stop is Israeli withdrawl, coupled with similtaneous Hezbollah disarmament. Stick to politics, and help the people they represent. Israelis would love not to have to fight, but they will as they have no choice.....

I don't feel optimistic in all this.

[sbl800]

I am a proud Englishman. I love my country. I love my heritage. I think we have the potential to lead the world in the next century.

Why then am I so ashamed today to be British?

Here's why;

Massacre - Death toll tops 500

Israels New Middle East

Definitive Proof that Israel are targeting civlians - WARNING - some disturbing images

Is this world another planets hell?

When did we become America's lapdog?

IF you are so ashamed please leave the country like the millions that don't want to move in!!!!!!!!

[bucksred]

Ben,

My condolences to you, and you mates family. Thats not hypocricy, I mean it. hope they, and you get through this.