Not Since 1994

[tinman-is-god]

Nibor, i think you have mis-understood what i am saying. When you say i am contradicting myself by blaming Hizbollah for the conflict, and i said there are two sides to every story i am just offering the other view than that of Israel are completely wrong, which is presented in the media. The media have not been neutral in this report, and it is only through finding out the facts myself that i understand the reasons for this conflict to begin.

I am not a supporter of the reaction by Israel, that is clear in what i said in my original post. I even said that Israel have messed up their attack and i welcome calls of a cease fire. I just outlined the reasons why Israel attack Southern Lebanon, as not many people seemed to be aware of this. I gave the reasons why, just trying to get some understanding behind the logic of Israel's attack. Of course Israel have over-reacted, we can all see that, but to understand this, we must at least understand Israel's feeling of insecurity in the region.

[Nibor]

Nibor, i think you have mis-understood what i am saying. When you say i am contradicting myself by blaming Hizbollah for the conflict, and i said there are two sides to every story i am just offering the other view than that of Israel are completely wrong, which is presented in the media. The media have not been neutral in this report, and it is only through finding out the facts myself that i understand the reasons for this conflict to begin.

I am not a supporter of the reaction by Israel, that is clear in what i said in my original post. I even said that Israel have messed up their attack and i welcome calls of a cease fire. I just outlined the reasons why Israel attack Southern Lebanon, as not many people seemed to be aware of this. I gave the reasons why, just trying to get some understanding behind the logic of Israel's attack. Of course Israel have over-reacted, we can all see that, but to understand this, we must at least understand Israel's feeling of insecurity in the region.

Perhaps I misunderstand what you're saying but in your first post you say that Hezbollah started this conflict and that is a complete fallacy. Israel didn't start the conflict either.

Until people take a wider view than "they did it first" the deaths on both sides will continue.

[bucksred]

Hey Benny boy:

Question on your shame to be British etc etc, as one of the flags shown as wanting an IMMEDIATE cease fire in the region is that of that bankrupt, murderous, tyrant Mugabes Zimbabwe, pity you werent ashamed then, as the British Government stood by then, in 1999, and still does, as 2,000 innocent black farm workers, and 5 white (BRITISH citizen/dual nationality) farmers were murdered by Mugabes thugs, and 15 year old *ahem* "war veterans" to nakedly threaten Zimbabweans who beleived in peace, racial harmony, and democracy as practiced in this country, let alone 1992, when 200,000 Ndelbele were murdered by Mugabes N Korean trained 5th Brigade. I beleive the figure is in the region of 10,000 murdered and missing, and 2.5 to 3 million have fled Zim, to escape the tyrant.

One of Mugabes (few) mates is that murderous muppet in Tehran too, and Hezbollah have representation there as Mugabe hates democracy as much as Hezbollah do.

Also what about the British citizens murdered in Israel by Hezbollah rockets and Hamas suicide bombers?

[solo1bc]

Ben, in all your shame etc etc

Hezbollah has been looking for this happen, knowing the way Israel responds. so why don't the heroes of the Islamic revolution build shelters for their people. Israel built their back in the 50's in the north, for exactly that reason. Hezbollah aint interested in that. No they prefer to hide among civilians rather than meet their "martyrs" death face to face with the IDF

Well it might just have something to do with the fact that Israel have a just teeny weeny bit more money? Somewhere in the region of billions & billions of dollars!

It also might have to do with the fact that Hezbollah has had to rebuild a country/region after a civil war and a war with Israel?

Perhaps because Southern Lebanon was occupied by the Israelis until 2000?!

Please show me some proof that they are hiding amongst civilians as well. Where did you get this information? Directly from people hiding in basements in Southern villages (like me!) or from the mainstream media?

From what people (again DIRECTLY involved have told me) this cannot be true as Hezbollah are incredibely secretive and afraid of both Israeli and Christian militia spys. The fighters almost never appear without masks and if you were a mother or father would YOU allow soldiers into your home to fight from there?

Your also assuming the premise that if a single house on a street is having rockets fired from it that it's ok to completely destroy the entire street & village to stop it. This premise I do not accept any more than I accept the premise of pre-emptive war etc.

Hezbollah are 'apparently' fighting the IDF directly in some villages so I don't see what your point is anyway? Or are the IDF only taking casualties from people's living rooms?!

Now me if my "protectors" failed to ensure my families safety before they picked a fight with Israel, i'd be pyssed off, with them as well as Israel.

So would I and I'm sure that some in Lebanon are too. I've said in other posts that what Hezbollah was done is plain stupid and irresponsible.

However, IF (as Hezbollah claim) they have been trying to negotiate the release of their prisoners for over 10 years and nobody will listen then I can (in a way) understand why they 'picked a fight' as you call it.

Not the right decision in my opinion as A) violence really doesn't solve anything and B) they must have known Israel would kick their ass BUT if nobody will listen to you and you feel it isn't a fair game then people are capable of making stupid decisions no?

and by the way I think Israel has gone way too far, but I can understand WHY they started it, and they should seriously think before they do any more

You can understand the destruction of an entire nations infrastructure as an act of self defense? I can understand the IDF wanting to retaliate or even punish those responsible but this reaction from Israel has nothing to do with that or at least thats how it seems. I've said this before but does Hezbollah have access to the internation airport? No so why destory it? Does Hezbollah have warships and submarines? No, so why blockade the entire country of medical supplies, food & fuel?

What about the Israeli railways workers murdered by Hezbollah in Haifa, and the Israeli Arabs killed in Nazareth, by their bigotted brothers in Hezbollah Ben?

Equally tragic as the needless loss of life in Lebanon. I've also said before that I wish Hezbollah could be the 'bigger' man in this situation and cease firing rockets into Israel. This would be the sensible thing to do in my opinion anyway as it would really give Israel no justification whatsoever (not that they seem to need any!)

Why though is it 'murder' when Hezbollah do it and 'collaterall damage' when Israel or the US do it?

The body count is smaller cos Israelis knew war was coming and have been safe in bunkers, unlike the people "protected" by the Hezbollah heroes, firing Katyushas from houses........

No. Gross misrepresentation and completely incorrect in my opinion. The body count is smaller because Israel has the third largest military budget in the world and is throwing everything but the kitchen sink (including those nice depleted uranium and cluster bombs apparently) in an indiscriminate manner and in some cases (apparently) deliberately targeting civilian targets (including ambulances if you believe the ITV news)

[solo1bc]

Hey Benny boy:

Question on your shame to be British etc etc, as one of the flags shown as wanting an IMMEDIATE cease fire in the region is that of that bankrupt, murderous, tyrant Mugabes Zimbabwe, pity you werent ashamed then, as the British Government stood by then, in 1999, and still does, as 2,000 innocent black farm workers, and 5 white (BRITISH citizen/dual nationality) farmers were murdered by Mugabes thugs, and 15 year old *ahem* "war veterans" to nakedly threaten Zimbabweans who beleived in peace, racial harmony, and democracy as practiced in this country, let alone 1992, when 200,000 Ndelbele were murdered by Mugabes N Korean trained 5th Brigade. I beleive the figure is in the region of 10,000 murdered and missing, and 2.5 to 3 million have fled Zim, to escape the tyrant.

One of Mugabes (few) mates is that murderous muppet in Tehran too, and Hezbollah have representation there as Mugabe hates democracy as much as Hezbollah do.

Also what about the British citizens murdered in Israel by Hezbollah rockets and Hamas suicide bombers?

How do you know I wasn't ashamed then as well? I'll be honest that despite living in South Africa I don't know a great deal about the situation in Zim. From just scratching the surface then his dictator style repression is disgusting BUT the fact that the vast majority of the land is owned by primarily white farmers is equally disgusting in my opinion. I'm sure that has nothing to do with his actions (I'm sure it's money and power thing) but that doesn't make it less true.

Like I said, I don't know too much about it so correct me if I'm wrong.

Interesting why nobody has asked what happened in 1994 as well by the way! I was talking about the genocide in Rwanda which was a situation created by the Belgian colonials who then (along with EVERY other country including ours) completely washed their hands of the situation allowing (in my opinion) the murder of approx. 1 million people.

What about the British citizens in Israel you ask... Well, I feel for their families and wish they hadn't been killed. I've repeatedly said that I condem all violence against civilians so what's your point? Am I supposed to be MORE upset because their British? My heart is (see the first sentance of this topic) but head says that the unneccesary death of ANYONE regardless of nationality is a tragedy.

What about the British peace protestor who was shot in the head by Israeli soldiers last year?

I'd also like to understand something about a comment you made last week when I said the Hezbollah see themselves as resistance fighters in the same vein as the French/Dutch resistance in WW2.

You said that was 'insulting' and I'd like to understand why?

[The Batman]

Interesting why nobody has asked what happened in 1994 as well by the way! I was talking about the genocide in Rwanda which was a situation created by the Belgian colonials who then (along with EVERY other country including ours) completely washed their hands of the situation allowing (in my opinion) the murder of approx. 1 million people.

i thought it was, i had to study it in my Holocaust lecture because we had to compare the Nazi Holocaust to other genocides. I didn't choose that one though, but our ex lecturer goes out there every year now.

I didn't wanna say in case it was completely different.

[bucksred]

Ben,

as I aint no compueter wizard, i'll attempt to answer some of your questions.

1. Hezbollah do hide among civilians, as every other terrorist (My definition)/freedom fighter (yours) has done from time immemorial. Please assuming your right how Katuysha rockets, and 122mm RUSSIAN made shells were found by a sky reporter this morning in Bel Jebyl (Spelling I know) Also explain the shots from an apache showing said Katyushas being fired from an apartment block in S Lebanon.

2. Hezbollah control that region of Lebanon, totally, the Army/Police etc are Hezbollah. The Demo in Beirut, course that was spontaneous wasnt it? Those terrorists have sought this camapign, knowing the Israeli reaction would be ferociuos. coincidence that Iran was in front of the Security Council, about its nuclear bomb ambitions, something a number of Arab states, let alone Israel, and the West are worried about. Funny thing aint it.

3. Air Raid shelters. if you read the posting, I mentioned Israel built shelters in the 50's, they werent rich then, permantly at war with hostile neighbours, but a RESPONSIBLE leadership, tried to ensure safety, summat Hezbollah couldnt give a toss about.

4. Unfortunately war is neither clinical, or precise. collateral damage can, does, will take place, and if your troops are embittered by constant call ups and state of war, they will be far less inclined to make an effort and prevent it. Trust me if you are fighting in battle, and the choice is you and your comrades or a big air strike, you will choose the air strike. don't make it clever, or even right, but it is how it is. I can only think of one war in the last three hundred years where civilians don't get huet- the campaign in the Western desert between 1940 and very early 43, when they reached Tunisia. therefore civilian casualties will always be high, specially if the troops base themselves in the community, and don't evacuate them from what is the front line.

5. If you did live in SA, you betray the typical attitude of Sarf africans in that war. not interested till some SA troopies were killed. all of what Israel has had to endure, we had to do likewise. Our troops were far less reliant on high tech, and therefore HAD to get up close and personal, and got exactly thwe same bile from exactly the same countries as Israel is gettin it from. Russia, N Korea, Iran, Syria, Indonesia, Peoples Republic of China, Sudan, Serbia...all of whom have forkin outstanding human rights, and wartime atrocity records...but hey lets not let truth get in the way of blaming Israel, US, and UK for every act of calumy that has occured in the world since WW2

6. Our terrs were exactly the same as hezbollah, and I have heard exactly the same thing as you say about them. Israeli intelligence is obviously not as good as you suggest, or the damage would have been a lot more focussed, and less missiles would have been fired. as to parents wanting their kids to fight, very true, but kids feel hatred a lot more than those of us who are older (and allegedly wiser). as for the white OWNED farms (I KNEW you would come out with THAT one). I hate to disappoint you, BUT the MAJORITY of farms seized, were PURCHASED, by said farmers AFTER 1980, with MUGABES GOVERNMENTAL PERMISSION. About two thirds of Rhodie farmers left when Mugabe, and his heroes fiddled the election in said year. indeed the majority of us left then, knowing what he was (and subsequently has done) capable of.

7. Israeli tactics have been misguided in the main, and mainly counter productive. However Hezbollah, have fully exploite this mess, with not a care to Lebanons interests. given their total hostility to the existance of Israel, and Israelis recent experiences do you expect kid gloves.

8. Partisans. insulting French/Dutch/Polish/ Russian partisans by comparing them to Hezbollah heroes who wish to wipe a state of the face of the planet, is pretty obvious to me. why is it so hard to understand? Even PIRA, ETA, Yasser Arafats geurillas, ZIPRA and ZANLA terrs have a higher standard than Hezbollah or Hamas....because of their Iranian sponsored mission, and policy. Hezbollah are not now, or will ever be fit to be described in the same breath as those mentioned above. simple enough. freedom fighters to some, but not to the mass of people

9 Rwanda (And don't forget the one in Burundi): Yes I have mentioned this before (During yet another debate about how hard done by Islamic world is done by), but sadly Belgique colonists arent the prime reason for it. Dagests favorite people (politicians) take that credit, and the French in particular, as they saw a chance to stop the growing influence of Britain in the region. Unfortunately the people they backed turned out to be as bad as Hitlers Nazis.

Yet again white Africans get the blame for it. but errrrrrr no not guilty. Actually to be fair to Belgium, it did try to save things, but the hatred released couldnt be stopped. and yet agin politicians bottled it

10. for the record, in case I git accused of Racism/religiousism.

I condemn the attacks on Lebanon. they are not the right way to do things. Attacks yes, but care taken in doing so, must be paramount

I condemn Israeli settlements of Gaza. West Bank & Golan heights. The occupation must end as soon as possible, in the circumstances

I condemn those who refuse to recognise the right of Israel to exist in secure borders. It must be recognised immediately, without condition by all.

I condemn those on both sides who kill civilians in cold blood. Be it bombing, sucide bombs, rocket attacks

I back Israels right to defend itsself. and to strike out at anytime against enemies within, or without at any time, if nothing else is done about it

I back the dissolution of Hezbollah and Hamas armed troops

I back The Lebanse right to self determiantion, with out either Syria, Iran or Israel interfering

I want peace, but not at any cost

Clear up most things, I hope, if I missed any, please let me know.

[Nibor]

That was a top post bucks and some very interesting points which are well worth thinking about. I agree with everything you've said in 10.

The main point I was trying to get across in this thread is that nothing will change in the region unless people can get over the tit-for-tat, "they started it" crap. Both sides have justifiable grievances and both have done things wrong over a long long period of time. To stop people being killed decisions need to be taken with the aim of improving the situation not out of anger, retaliation or fear.

I wouldn't worry about getting called racist, it's obvious your views are based on your experiences not the skin colour or religion of someone. Pity really that bristolborn isn't capable of expressing his opinions in the same manner, but perhaps that's indicative of the fact that the reasons behind his views aren't quite so straightforward...

[bristolborn_and_red]

That was a top post bucks and some very interesting points which are well worth thinking about. I agree with everything you've said in 10.

The main point I was trying to get across in this thread is that nothing will change in the region unless people can get over the tit-for-tat, "they started it" crap. Both sides have justifiable grievances and both have done things wrong over a long long period of time. To stop people being killed decisions need to be taken with the aim of improving the situation not out of anger, retaliation or fear.

I wouldn't worry about getting called racist, it's obvious your views are based on your experiences not the skin colour or religion of someone. Pity really that bristolborn isn't capable of expressing his opinions in the same manner, but perhaps that's indicative of the fact that the reasons behind his views aren't quite so straightforward...

Oh they're plenty straightforward. I'm anti-jihad. It's a pity you don't understand Islamic core text and know about Islamic history then might draw the conclusion that the jihad is bad for us all, not just the Israelis.

[Nibor]

Oh they're plenty straightforward. I'm anti-jihad. It's a pity you don't understand Islamic core text and know about Islamic history then might draw the conclusion that the jihad is bad for us all, not just the Israelis.

I do understand the extremist Islamic views - they're just as bad as the extremist Christian, Jewish and Hindu ones. What I don't do is believe that those extremist views are held by any other than a small minority and therefore tar every arab and muslim with the extremist "jihad" brush like you do.

You refer to Islamic "core text" in your attempt justify your blatant bigotry but the core text of nearly every religion contains extremist views. What you will find is that very few people hold them.

I'd love to hear you explain how you think Israel's invasion of Southern Lebanon is justifiable, proportional or in any way going to improve the situation.

[bucksred]

Oh they're plenty straightforward. I'm anti-jihad. It's a pity you don't understand Islamic core text and know about Islamic history then might draw the conclusion that the jihad is bad for us all, not just the Israelis.

B B & B, thats simplistic. A sect or two twist the Koran, and associated works to suit thie nilihilitic world view. In truth they are scared of the communication age...they can only control through fear ignorance and stupidity. Educating the masses of dirt poor, and illiterate Muslims round the world (Not just muslims either) will put paid to their twisted creed

[CiderHider]

I think we are losing the Propaganda fight, we should do what Thatcher did and ban any broadcasts from Terrorist groups.

Anyone caught broadcasting gets 5 yrs in Gitmo!

Seriously though, I respect Bensolos points and i have told him before. I have both Muslim and Jewish family, i myself am Christian but what does it matter really.

The vast vast Majority of the Islamic world is peaceful, but they are also very loyal and in some countrys very scared and oppressed.

Most young Iranians for instance, DO want to become much more Westernized, but the crazy fanatical ayatollahs rule with a iron rod and uphold the most ludicrous of laws which stop Iran engaging with the rest of the world, they are paranoid and misinformed.

I reckon the only way we will ever rid terror from this world is if we rid win the propganda war, but in order to do this we need regime change in several middle eastern countrys.

Is America and Israel going to do this ? Will the UK be asked to help? Will this mean WWIIII ?

Does anyone NOT think this is WWIII now?

If you said to a Londoner at the Start of WWI "Hey, this is the start of WWI" he would look at you as if you were crazy.

America and Israel will bomb Iran with months, i'll put money on it.

[Barrs Court Red]

This will not be the start of WW3. The Islamic world is fractionated and will not ever stand as one against the west, or indeed Isreal.

The only war we need be afraid of is one with Russia or China. Anyone else just doesn't stand a chance, and even then China would have to resort to human wave attacks as their military is outdated.

[bristolborn_and_red]

B B & B, thats simplistic. A sect or two twist the Koran, and associated works to suit thie nilihilitic world view. In truth they are scared of the communication age...they can only control through fear ignorance and stupidity. Educating the masses of dirt poor, and illiterate Muslims round the world (Not just muslims either) will put paid to their twisted creed

Sorry Bucks but why does it have to be complicated? The jihad is quran inspired. It is a moral obligation of all muslims. You can quote the imams time and time again. Why disbelieve them? If people took the time to do a bit of research then they would find the truth. Start with the quran and hadith. People don't though and prefer to listen to the PC media and believe all that it says.

For instance, If i was to come on this forum and say that the quran is anti-semetic and that the prophet mohammed was a paedophile, i would be lambasted by likes of benny boy, dagest, etc. The fact is the quran is anti-semetic and mohammed was a paedophile but all would deny it and they would end up resorting to name calling and sneers. The last bastion of the apologist.

Have a look at this link. Its an interview with the president of Yemen. Note he emphaises "Islamic nation"

President of Yemen

[dagest]

Sorry Bucks but why does it have to be complicated?

Becuase life is complicated. As I've said to you numeorus times before life can't be viewed in a binary way: them and us, black and white, Christian and Jew. You really should stop reading those stupid clash of civilisations books and step back a bit.

If people took the time to do a bit of research then they would find the truth. Start with the quran and hadith.

Why do you pompously assert that you're the only person to have ever read about Islam? I haven't read everything under the sun, but I've read a history of Islam, Ibn-Al-Arabi and the historian Ibn-Khaldoun. And of course it's true in the Koran you can find passages which are intolerant and beligerent, but the same can be said the Bible.

Here we have the Koran:

Fight those who do not believe in Allah...And the Jews say Ezra is the son of God; and the Christians say Christ is the son of God; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; Allah's curse be on them; how they are turned away! (Koran 9:29-30)

Hmm...pretty intolerant, but there again it was written in a particular context.

Here we have the good 'ol bible, which I suppose you don't get so upset about:

Matthew 10:34-36 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

However, if we examine both texts we will find passages that extol charity etc. And of course many contemporary individuals recongnise that these quote come from particular contexts.

Yet, if you want to maintain that only the Christians have "advanced", here's your buddy George:

"No, I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."

The fact is the quran is anti-semetic

It's not as if the Christians have ever had a problem with the Jews have they?

[bristolborn_and_red]

Becuase life is complicated. As I've said to you numeorus times before life can't be viewed in a binary way: them and us, black and white, Christian and Jew. You really should stop reading those stupid clash of civilisations books and step back a bit.

Why do you pompously assert that you're the only person to have ever read about Islam? I haven't read everything under the sun, but I've read a history of Islam, Ibn-Al-Arabi and the historian Ibn-Khaldoun. And of course it's true in the Koran you can find passages which are intolerant and beligerent, but the same can be said the Bible.

Here we have the Koran:

Hmm...pretty intolerant, but there again it was written in a particular context.

Here we have the good 'ol bible, which I suppose you don't get so upset about:

However, if we examine both texts we will find passages that extol charity etc. And of course many contemporary individuals recongnise that these quote come from particular contexts.

Yet, if you want to maintain that only the Christians have "advanced", here's your buddy George:

It's not as if the Christians have ever had a problem with the Jews have they?

But they reformed. When is Islam going to reform? and can it?

What did you think of the words of the Yemeni president?

Nice of you to quote the verse of the sword. However, the quran is the actual word of god. It cannot be interpreted unlike the bible (all a load of b0ll0x by the way). If you are an Islamic reformist, you will be shouted down and eventually branded an apostate and/or heretic. Just like this bloke.

Blasphemer

[dagest]

But they reformed. When is Islam going to reform? and can it?

What did you think of the words of the Yemeni president?

Nice of you to quote the verse of the sword. However, the quran is the actual word of god. It cannot be interpreted unlike the bible (all a load of b0ll0x by the way). If you are an Islamic reformist, you will be shouted down and eventually branded an apostate and/or heretic. Just like this bloke.

Blasphemer

Does Islam need reforming? I get the impression that many Muslims are ordinary, peace loving people anyway. How do we help reform it? Islamic reform (if required), has to be organic, from within. If it does require reform, is the best way to bomb them into submission? Especially as the two instigators both claimed to be moved by a Christian God. The policies of "Christian" Blair and Bush have only driven moderate Mulsims to the Al-Quaeda recruitment desk becuase they percieve the West as being anti-Muslim. And given the foreign policy of the US and Blair's Britain, it's hard to see how they conclude anything else.

Has Christianity reformed? I don't know and don't particularly care, but all I know is that in the US epicentre of evangelical Christianity they still maintain state executions, ruthless capitalist explioitation, homophobia, anti-atheism and the teaching of Intelligent design. Does all that require reform?

I'm glad we can agree that the Bible's bollox, but I also believe the Koran's bollox too.

What do I think about the President of Yemen? - It's one man's opinion isn't it? I don't agree with him anymore than I do with Bush or Blair.

[solo1bc]

Ben,

as I aint no compueter wizard, i'll attempt to answer some of your questions.

1. Hezbollah do hide among civilians, as every other terrorist (My definition)/freedom fighter (yours) has done from time immemorial. Please assuming your right how Katuysha rockets, and 122mm RUSSIAN made shells were found by a sky reporter this morning in Bel Jebyl (Spelling I know) Also explain the shots from an apache showing said Katyushas being fired from an apartment block in S Lebanon.

Again though Bucks you're assuming the premise that if a single house is being used to fire rockets then the justification is there to destroy the entire street or village. I strongly disagree with that.

It's a modern phenomenen (since WW2) that countries aren't willing to sacrifice soldiers to do what they are paid for and prefer to level an area regardless of 'collateral damage' to avoid military losses.

Cheaper to kill a civilian than to train a soldier I guess.

FYI, I don't believe a SINGLE WORD that is reported from Sky News any more than I would from Al Manar!

I've said it before and I'll say it again but the fact is (I use the word 'fact' because I know people DIRECTLY involved) that Hezbollah fighters - as opposed to the much more numerous Hezbollah political members, and the vastly more numerous Hezbollah sympathizers - avoid civilians like the plague. They're much smarter and better trained than the PLO and Hamas fighters and they know that if they mingle with civilians, they will sooner or later be betrayed by collaborators - as so many Palestinian militants have been.

You also didn't answer ANY of my questions about the bombing of the airport, (seemingly) deliberate targeting of civilians and reported fighting between Hezbollah fighters and the IDF though?

2. Hezbollah control that region of Lebanon, totally, the Army/Police etc are Hezbollah. The Demo in Beirut, course that was spontaneous wasnt it? Those terrorists have sought this camapign, knowing the Israeli reaction would be ferociuos. coincidence that Iran was in front of the Security Council, about its nuclear bomb ambitions, something a number of Arab states, let alone Israel, and the West are worried about. Funny thing aint it.

I really don't see you point mate. Are you suggesting that Iran have engineered this to start a war with the US?

Hezbollah have said that this was planned for some time as there only way to force Israel to negotiate a prisoner exchange so I'm not arguing that they didn't 'start it'. The word 'dispraportionate' seems to be popular at the moment but Hezbollah attacked a single IDF patrol (whether it was inside Lebanese or Israeli territory depends on who you believe) after which Israel have 'started' a full scale war and attacked an entire country. :Crazy:

3. Air Raid shelters. if you read the posting, I mentioned Israel built shelters in the 50's, they werent rich then, permantly at war with hostile neighbours, but a RESPONSIBLE leadership, tried to ensure safety, summat Hezbollah couldnt give a toss about.

You've neatly avoided the fact that the south of the country was occupied by the Israeli's until the year 2000?!

Hezbollah are also part of a divided nation, were involved in a civil war and don't have the blanket support of the largest superpower in the world.

Hezbollah have built hospitals, schools and are fighting a war for the people they 'couldn't give a toss about' so that's a silly opinion in my view.

I will concede the point that many Arab nations and political parties aren't the most caring bunch though if that's what your getting at? To say they 'don't give a toss' though is totally incorrect and you'll hear the same from almost anyone from Southern Lebanon regardless of bomb shelters!

4. Unfortunately war is neither clinical, or precise. collateral damage can, does, will take place, and if your troops are embittered by constant call ups and state of war, they will be far less inclined to make an effort and prevent it. Trust me if you are fighting in battle, and the choice is you and your comrades or a big air strike, you will choose the air strike. don't make it clever, or even right, but it is how it is. I can only think of one war in the last three hundred years where civilians don't get huet- the campaign in the Western desert between 1940 and very early 43, when they reached Tunisia. therefore civilian casualties will always be high, specially if the troops base themselves in the community, and don't evacuate them from what is the front line.

Disagree again here I'm afraid. Sure, some collateral damage is unavoidable in any war but the destruction of an entire country is NOT collateral damage. I also don't believe that by saying 'oh, its unavoidable' means that it's something we should just accept. Some form of poverty or crime is pretty unavoidable as well so do you suggest we just say '**** it, it's can't be helped'? No, we keep trying to make things as perfect as possible. Why shouldn't this be the case in a war as well?

Anyway, what is happening in Lebanon is NOT collateral damage. It's way beyond that!

5. If you did live in SA, you betray the typical attitude of Sarf africans in that war. not interested till some SA troopies were killed. all of what Israel has had to endure, we had to do likewise. Our troops were far less reliant on high tech, and therefore HAD to get up close and personal, and got exactly thwe same bile from exactly the same countries as Israel is gettin it from. Russia, N Korea, Iran, Syria, Indonesia, Peoples Republic of China, Sudan, Serbia...all of whom have forkin outstanding human rights, and wartime atrocity records...but hey lets not let truth get in the way of blaming Israel, US, and UK for every act of calumy that has occured in the world since WW2

What?! Are you suggesting that Israel is 'getting up close and personal' in this war?! The opposite is true in my opinion!

Anyway, like I said, I don't know too much about the Rhodesia war but looking at the human rights record of the countries speaking out against Israel is another smokescreen.

NO country has a good human rights record if you go back far enough in history but by listing the countries that you have you are trying to manipulate the fact that THE ENTIRE WORLD (with the exception of THREE countries) has spoken out against it and demanded a ceasefire!

You should also remember that the US (South America & Vietnam), UK (British Empire) have pretty diabolical records themselves.

6. Our terrs were exactly the same as hezbollah, and I have heard exactly the same thing as you say about them. Israeli intelligence is obviously not as good as you suggest, or the damage would have been a lot more focussed, and less missiles would have been fired. as to parents wanting their kids to fight, very true, but kids feel hatred a lot more than those of us who are older (and allegedly wiser). as for the white OWNED farms (I KNEW you would come out with THAT one). I hate to disappoint you, BUT the MAJORITY of farms seized, were PURCHASED, by said farmers AFTER 1980, with MUGABES GOVERNMENTAL PERMISSION. About two thirds of Rhodie farmers left when Mugabe, and his heroes fiddled the election in said year. indeed the majority of us left then, knowing what he was (and subsequently has done) capable of.

I didn't say that the farms were kept since the colonisation of the country. If they were purchased after 1980 then surely the fact that the white minority had been controlling the country and hence had the money to purchase the farms is the same thing. Or are you denying that black people were 2nd class citizens in Southern Africa until very recently?

How many of the indigineous population could have possibly earned enough money to purchase the farms under the regimes of South Africa & Rhodesia?!

Anyway, I'm not defending the acts of Mugabe in any way or suggesting that white africans are the devil. I'm merely saying that up until recently the status of black africans was unfair in Southern Africa. Unfortunately the 'balancing' of that has gone too far the other way.

7. Israeli tactics have been misguided in the main, and mainly counter productive. However Hezbollah, have fully exploite this mess, with not a care to Lebanons interests. given their total hostility to the existance of Israel, and Israelis recent experiences do you expect kid gloves.

Kid gloves no and I did say in my previous post that I understand if Israel want to go after Hezbollah. What they are doing now though is destroying an entire country so do you expect that?!

I've also said before that both sides are 'wrong' but the reaction of Israel in this situation is just disgusting in my opinion.

8. Partisans. insulting French/Dutch/Polish/ Russian partisans by comparing them to Hezbollah heroes who wish to wipe a state of the face of the planet, is pretty obvious to me. why is it so hard to understand? Even PIRA, ETA, Yasser Arafats geurillas, ZIPRA and ZANLA terrs have a higher standard than Hezbollah or Hamas....because of their Iranian sponsored mission, and policy. Hezbollah are not now, or will ever be fit to be described in the same breath as those mentioned above. simple enough. freedom fighters to some, but not to the mass of people

Not to the mass of people hey?! I'm sorry Bucks but your just plain wrong. Even our government doesn't class them as a 'terrorist' organisation although that may have changed now that Blair has become Bush's bitch! See below;

Throughout most of the Arab and Muslim worlds, Hezbollah is highly regarded as a legitimate resistance movement.[19] According to a poll released by the "Beirut Center for Research and Information" on 26 July during 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict, 87 percent of Lebanese support Hezbollah's fight with Israel, a rise of 29 percent on a similar poll conducted in February. More striking, however, is the level of support for Hezbollah's resistance from non-Shiite communities. Eighty percent of Christians polled supported Hezbollah along with 80 percent of Druze and 89 percent of Sunnis.[20], while according to another poll, from July 2005, 74 percent of Christian Lebanese viewed Hezbollah as a resistance organization.[21] The Lebanese government confirmed it as a legitimate resistance against occupation.[22][23] 7

Hezbollah is considered by some (including the Lebanese government) to be a resistance movement and by others (including the governments of the U.S., Israel and Canada) to be a terrorist organization.

The United Nations Deputy Secretary-General, Mark Malloch Brown, contested characterisations of the Lebanese militia as a terrorist organisation in the mould of al-Qaeda.[2] and the United States and the international community must respect Hezbollah as a political party, not a terrorist organization. [3]

The United States, Canada and Israel consider Hezbollah a terrorist organization, claiming that the organization initiates attacks against civilians and ideologically supports such attacks by other similar organizations.

The United Kingdom, Australia and the Netherlands officially list only the External Security Organization of Hezbollah (ESO) as a proscribed organisation.[24][25][26]

So this has NOTHING to do with my definition, beliefs or bias. Maybe you don't like the definition but the 'mass' as you call them clearly see Hezbollah as a resistance organisation. So apologies if you don't like to hear them in the 'same breath' as the European resistance but the majority of this part of the world see if very differently. Considering they are the ones that live here and are directly affected then I prefer to use their definition and not yours.

Also, this statement that Hezbollah, Iran & Syria want 'to wipe Israel off the map' is a consistent smoke screen by those who refuse to see the Zionist (please notice I DIDN'T say Jewish!) movements crimes and hipocricies in my opinion. These statements were mostly made (with the exception of Iran maybe but as I've said, that guy is a nutter!) during a time of war and invasion and don't apply in todays world. Given the chance (Israel complying with UN resolutions and stopping the brutalising of the Palstinians) then the vast majority of Arab states would prefer to 'look forward' to a peaceful future.

While the US etc. continues to turn a blind eye and just allow Israel to do whatever they want then there is no chance for this to happen.

It makes you wonder if this isn't what the US and Zionist Israel want? Do you really think that this indiscriminate bombing of Lebanon is giving the moderate Arabs a better position or worse? Worse of course!

9 Rwanda (And don't forget the one in Burundi): Yes I have mentioned this before (During yet another debate about how hard done by Islamic world is done by), but sadly Belgique colonists arent the prime reason for it. Dagests favorite people (politicians) take that credit, and the French in particular, as they saw a chance to stop the growing influence of Britain in the region. Unfortunately the people they backed turned out to be as bad as Hitlers Nazis.

Yet again white Africans get the blame for it. but errrrrrr no not guilty. Actually to be fair to Belgium, it did try to save things, but the hatred released couldnt be stopped. and yet agin politicians bottled it

Well, we've got different histories here then. My understanding was that the Tutsi's & Hutu's lived relatevly peacefully until the Begian colonials put the Tutsi's in charge and started selecting people based on the colour of the skin and width of their nose ( ) to be 1st class citizens (Tutsi's) and 2nd class citizens (Hutu's). Tutsi's were the ruling class before the colonies but there was NEVER the blind hatred and resentment that exploded in 1994.

My problem with our governments actions in 1994 is that we did NOTHING except evacuate our own people! We even supported the UN resolution to restrict the existing UN troops on the ground who had to stand back and just watch.

I'm not sure what the solution would have been but to do nothing is inherrently wrong in my opinion.

10. for the record, in case I git accused of Racism/religiousism.

I condemn the attacks on Lebanon. they are not the right way to do things. Attacks yes, but care taken in doing so, must be paramount

I condemn Israeli settlements of Gaza. West Bank & Golan heights. The occupation must end as soon as possible, in the circumstances

I condemn those who refuse to recognise the right of Israel to exist in secure borders. It must be recognised immediately, without condition by all.

I condemn those on both sides who kill civilians in cold blood. Be it bombing, sucide bombs, rocket attacks

I back Israels right to defend itsself. and to strike out at anytime against enemies within, or without at any time, if nothing else is done about it

I back the dissolution of Hezbollah and Hamas armed troops

I back The Lebanse right to self determiantion, with out either Syria, Iran or Israel interfering

I want peace, but not at any cost

Clear up most things, I hope, if I missed any, please let me know.

Well, it seems we don't agree on the details but we do agree on the 'big picture' mate! I believe that a lot has to happen internally before Hezbollah disarms and I also believe that Israels right to 'defend itself' needs to be more clearly defined but in general I agree with all of your last point!

Wow! :notworthy:

Edit: Double posted for some reason!

[bucksred]

Again though Bucks you're assuming the premise that if a single house is being used to fire rockets then the justification is there to destroy the entire street or village. I strongly disagree with that.

Its called war. Terrorists are hiding among civvies. If that happens (or soldiers), they pay the price. Its always been like that, and unless the unlikely event of the human race changing happens, always will be.

It's a modern phenomenen (since WW2) that countries aren't willing to sacrifice soldiers to do what they are paid for and prefer to level an area regardless of 'collateral damage' to avoid military losses.

nope read the history of the Wars of The spanish Succession, and Napoleonic Wars. Central Europe and russia were devasted by war. and the southern states of the US in their Civil War. Or African tribal wars.

Cheaper to kill a civilian than to train a soldier I guess.

If you are a soldier, you don't accept unnessacary casualties, unless you have to. A barrage or air strike on the other guy or fifty of you own troops killed in open ground. No brainer. The other guy is unless he's Hezbollah, and wants to be a martyr, will be the same. Not pleasant, but again its war. soldiers don't start wars. they have to sort the mess out.

FYI, I don't believe a SINGLE WORD that is reported from Sky News any more than I would from Al Manar!

We agree on summat. I too am fully aware of biased reporting, funnily enough the same station being called Hezbollah Broadcastin Corportaion at this time.I

've said it before and I'll say it again but the fact is (I use the word 'fact' because I know people DIRECTLY involved) that Hezbollah fighters - as opposed to the much more numerous Hezbollah political members, and the vastly more numerous Hezbollah sympathizers - avoid civilians like the plague. They're much smarter and better trained than the PLO and Hamas fighters and they know that if they mingle with civilians, they will sooner or later be betrayed by collaborators - as so many Palestinian militants have been.

Course they do. sympathisers, yes, troops no, sorry, disagree there, and I've heard it all before from a million terrorist bands.

You also didn't answer ANY of my questions about the bombing of the airport, (seemingly) deliberate targeting of civilians and reported fighting between Hezbollah fighters and the IDF though?

Yes I did, see my comments on Hezbollah hiding among civvies. And you may not like it, but Beirut International, and the ports, and fuel dumps are acceptable military targets, specially as IDF F16s took out the runway, not terminal buildings. One thing you should know about war, battle is the most frightening thing you will ever see, normal human traits go out of the window, and you take incoming fire, in the heat of battle, and think its coming from a house, you'll blast it with fire. If you get it right, job done. Mistakes happen in all wars. Deliberate to al Jazeera, Hezbollah Broadcasting corporation, and ITN, but it aint to the PBI (Poor Bloody Infantry)

I really don't see you point mate. Are you suggesting that Iran have engineered this to start a war with the US?

Yes without a shadow of a doubt.

Hezbollah have said that this was planned for some time as there only way to force Israel to negotiate a prisoner exchange so I'm not arguing that they didn't 'start it'. The word 'dispraportionate' seems to be popular at the moment but Hezbollah attacked a single IDF patrol (whether it was inside Lebanese or Israeli territory depends on who you believe) after which Israel have 'started' a full scale war and attacked an entire country. :Crazy:

So lets see, you belong to a country, surrounded by hostile neighbours, who don't acknowledge your existance, and have several movements/countries who wish to wipe your state off the face of the earth, all this following on 60 years after an attempted genocide of your race, and you have witnessed suicide bomb, after suicide bomb, after suicide bomb. all this in a country whos people are like any of us, bar the fact they are Israelis..........Yeah I think thats justifaction, specially its sucide bombing is acceptablle to Hamas

You've neatly avoided the fact that the south of the country was occupied by the Israeli's until the year 2000?!

Hezbollah are also part of a divided nation, were involved in a civil war and don't have the blanket support of the largest superpower in the world.

Key word divided nation. Christians, Sunnis and Druze, who until this war were sick of Hezbollah. Israels only mistake in all this, not makin it clear Hezbollah are the problem. Hezbollah are supported Iran, the other regional superpower, and Syria.

Hezbollah have built hospitals, schools and are fighting a war for the people they 'couldn't give a toss about' so that's a silly opinion in my view.

No, because they preach their extreme version of Islam in said schools, which aint overwhelmingly popular in many Muslim states. FACT, several muslims, I work with are not happy at the Hezbollah/Iranian type of Islams spread, wether or not they like the Yanks. I'll concede Hezbollah/Hamas aint as corrupt as the average Arab politician. As for hospitals, so they should given the problems they create

I will concede the point that many Arab nations and political parties aren't the most caring bunch though if that's what your getting at? To say they 'don't give a toss' though is totally incorrect and you'll hear the same from almost anyone from Southern Lebanon regardless of bomb shelters!

If you say so. Hezbollah are the most cynical, of a very cynical bunch in the region. they beleive in martyrdom, and the destruction of Israel, which stands them out in a small field

Disagree again here I'm afraid. Sure, some collateral damage is unavoidable in any war but the destruction of an entire country is NOT collateral damage. I also don't believe that by saying 'oh, its unavoidable' means that it's something we should just accept. Some form of poverty or crime is pretty unavoidable as well so do you suggest we just say '**** it, it's can't be helped'? No, we keep trying to make things as perfect as possible. Why shouldn't this be the case in a war as well?

If you were Israeli, I somehow doubt you'd hold that view, but hey, Israel is the great satan aint it. And also see comments on war

Anyway, what is happening in Lebanon is NOT collateral damage. It's way beyond that!

wonder what you'd think is Hezbollah were doing the same to Israel. You sow as ye shall reap....(old Jewish proverb) Hezbollah started it, and they have made Lebanon pay the price. Try being in a state of war for forty years, its not just restricted to Palesinians and Lebanses you know.

What?! Are you suggesting that Israel is 'getting up close and personal' in this war?! The opposite is true in my opinion!

whatever mate, youre correct about the first few, but they sure are now.

Anyway, like I said, I don't know too much about the Rhodesia war but looking at the human rights record of the countries speaking out against Israel is another smokescreen.

Why, Russians have an awful record gainst muslim Chechens, sudan against Darfur and the Chritian South, N Korea, most of its people are starving, China, Tienamen square, remember? Iran, a president advocation the total destruction of the state of Israel, Serbia, atrocities agin Croat, Slovene, Bosnian, Kosovar......all rlevant m'lud. Most have also armed Hezbollah too

NO country has a good human rights record if you go back far enough in history but by listing the countries that you have you are trying to manipulate the fact that THE ENTIRE WORLD (with the exception of THREE countries) has spoken out against it and demanded a ceasefire!

No call me cynical that those countries, Serbia excepted are highly vocal in the ceasefire thang. Just because three countries are the only ones don't make them wrong automatically. In point of fact Germany, Poland & the Czech republic also helped defeat an EU statement in similar, and Germany & Poland are no frieds to the state of Israel are they? Two thirds of the world is run by despots of various hue/colour/creed and agenda.....yeah I think its relevant. however if you are part of a vested intrest (Your wifes family) then they are bad.You should also remember that the US (South America & Vietnam), UK (British Empire) have pretty diabolical records themselves.

I didn't say that the farms were kept since the colonisation of the country. If they were purchased after 1980 then surely the fact that the white minority had been controlling the country and hence had the money to purchase the farms is the same thing. Or are you denying that black people were 2nd class citizens in Southern Africa until very recently?

The reason whites used to control the farming sector, is that they were COMMERCIAL famers, most blacks are subsistance farmers.....Commercial beingf the key word......makes money. For your information there were around 50 black commercial farmers, all of whom lost their farms. And as for second class citizens, what the fork do you think they are now. They are worse off than they were in 1923, fer forks sake!!

How many of the indigineous population could have possibly earned enough money to purchase the farms under the regimes of South Africa & Rhodesia?!

Around 50, the same 50. You see most black farmers are subsistance farmers, the commercial thing is very much a Northern Hemisphere thing, transported there.....Cant answer for SA, but in Rhodesia, depending where any chance, although whites had the better land pre 76, it changed around then

Anyway, I'm not defending the acts of Mugabe in any way or suggesting that white africans are the devil. I'm merely saying that up until recently the status of black africans was unfair in Southern Africa. Unfortunately the 'balancing' of that has gone too far the other way.

Never........wonder how many on here think we still are?

Kid gloves no and I did say in my previous post that I understand if Israel want to go after Hezbollah. What they are doing now though is destroying an entire country so do you expect that?!

See answers above.

I've also said before that both sides are 'wrong' but the reaction of Israel in this situation is just disgusting in my opinion.

Not to the mass of people hey?! I'm sorry Bucks but your just plain wrong. Even our government doesn't class them as a 'terrorist' organisation although that may have changed now that Blair has become Bush's bitch! See below;

Whatever, everyone I know thinks they are terrorists, in spite of what they think of Israel. muslim fruitcakes excepted, anfd the odd anti semite. wouldnt disagree about Bliar though

Throughout most of the Arab and Muslim worlds, Hezbollah is highly regarded as a legitimate resistance movement.[19] According to a poll released by the "Beirut Center for Research and Information" on 26 July during 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict, 87 percent of Lebanese support Hezbollah's fight with Israel, a rise of 29 percent on a similar poll conducted in February. More striking, however, is the level of support for Hezbollah's resistance from non-Shiite communities. Eighty percent of Christians polled supported Hezbollah along with 80 percent of Druze and 89 percent of Sunnis.[20], while according to another poll, from July 2005, 74 percent of Christian Lebanese viewed Hezbollah as a resistance organization.[21] The Lebanese government confirmed it as a legitimate resistance against occupation.[22][23] 7

If you say so, I'll diagree on that. ANY organization who is dedicated to the destruction of a state, is no a resistance movement.

Hezbollah is considered by some (including the Lebanese government) to be a resistance movement and by others (including the governments of the U.S., Israel and Canada) to be a terrorist organization.

The United Nations Deputy Secretary-General, Mark Malloch Brown, contested characterisations of the Lebanese militia as a terrorist organisation in the mould of al-Qaeda.[2] and the United States and the international community must respect Hezbollah as a political party, not a terrorist organization. [3]

The United States, Canada and Israel consider Hezbollah a terrorist organization, claiming that the organization initiates attacks against civilians and ideologically supports such attacks by other similar organizations.

Also the EU, but hey lets not spoil a good conspiricy theory, hey?

The United Kingdom, Australia and the Netherlands officially list only the External Security Organization of Hezbollah (ESO) as a proscribed organisation.[24][25][26]

So this has NOTHING to do with my definition, beliefs or bias. Maybe you don't like the definition but the 'mass' as you call them clearly see Hezbollah as a resistance organisation. So apologies if you don't like to hear them in the 'same breath' as the European resistance but the majority of this part of the world see if very differently. Considering they are the ones that live here and are directly affected then I prefer to use their definition and not yours.

To say a terrorist like Hezbollah, in the same breath as Krajowa Armija, or the FFL, IS an insult.......The SS would LOVE Hezbollah too

Also, this statement that Hezbollah, Iran & Syria want 'to wipe Israel off the map' is a consistent smoke screen by those who refuse to see the Zionist (please notice I DIDN'T say Jewish!) movements crimes and hipocricies in my opinion. These statements were mostly made (with the exception of Iran maybe but as I've said, that guy is a nutter!) during a time of war and invasion and don't apply in todays world. Given the chance (Israel complying with UN resolutions and stopping the brutalising of the Palstinians) then the vast majority of Arab states would prefer to 'look forward' to a peaceful future.

so I'm a Zionist now......................... Damn i get about.

While the US etc. continues to turn a blind eye and just allow Israel to do whatever they want then there is no chance for this to happen.

Iran & Syria anyone?

It makes you wonder if this isn't what the US and Zionist Israel want? Do you really think that this indiscriminate bombing of Lebanon is giving the moderate Arabs a better position or worse? Worse of course!

Agreed, but there again, most don't want shia domiation either, but hey, conspiricies again........

Well, we've got different histories here then. My understanding was that the Tutsi's & Hutu's lived relatevly peacefully until the Begian colonials put the Tutsi's in charge and started selecting people based on the colour of the skin and width of their nose ( ) to be 1st class citizens (Tutsi's) and 2nd class citizens (Hutu's). Tutsi's were the ruling class before the colonies but there was NEVER the blind hatred and resentment that exploded in 1994.

In case you hadnt noticed Belgium left those place in 1960 I think. They have made their own mess. And don't ever underestimate the evil of African tribalism, it is one of the worst things holding africa back. Its hppening in Zimbabwe, and has SINCE Black independance. Cant keep blaming the whites/US/UK/Zionists you know

My problem with our governments actions in 1994 is that we did NOTHING except evacuate our own people! We even supported the UN resolution to restrict the existing UN troops on the ground who had to stand back and just watch.

Correct, given the regions history, and our recent experience, sure makes sense to me. Never one of our colonies, which we have routinely abandoned, so why do we need to do owt?

I'm not sure what the solution would have been but to do nothing is inherrently wrong in my opinion.

Let them sort it out, looks good to me

Well, it seems we don't agree on the details but we do agree on the 'big picture' mate! I believe that a lot has to happen internally before Hezbollah disarms and I also believe that Israels right to 'defend itself' needs to be more clearly defined but in general I agree with all of your last point!

disbanding hezbollahs military, and Israelis reting behing their frontiers is all that will work, but cant see it meself..........

Wow! :notworthy:

Edit: Double posted for some reason!

[screech]

The sooner people throw away their silly little religious books and just get on with living their short lives the better.

What a pointless life some people lead when all they do is hang on to a book that may be a crock of crap anyway.

Religion. It really screws you up.

[solo1bc]

Whatever, everyone I know thinks they are terrorists

I really can't be bothered to sort through that mess of a reply to answer each point. Can't you learn how to use the quote feature properly?

Frankly, I don't know how to reply to your answers anyway. I could go through it and refute every single reply because in most cases your talking utter bullocks but as you just ignore whatever facts I put in front of you and believe whatever you want regardless (as in your statement above) whats the point?

Almost 90% of Lebanese and the vast majortiy of other Arab states see Hezbollah as a legitimate resistance movement but hey, whatever right? They're just Arabs who live there and everyone you know (In bloody buckinghamshire or from bloody Zimbabwe! ) thinks they're terrorists so we'll just go with that!?

Ridiculous!

[The Fat Controller]

The sooner people throw away their silly little religious books and just get on with living their short lives the better.

What a pointless life some people lead when all they do is hang on to a book that may be a crock of crap anyway.

Religion. It really screws you up.

don't get started on a religious debate.

This may be your opinion, but it doesnt mean its correct, and just because you may or may not be religious doesnt mean than all religion "screws you up".

EDIT: Typo

[bristolborn_and_red]

I really can't be bothered to sort through that mess of a reply to answer each point. Can't you learn how to use the quote feature properly?

Frankly, I don't know how to reply to your answers anyway. I could go through it and refute every single reply because in most cases your talking utter bullocks but as you just ignore whatever facts I put in front of you and believe whatever you want regardless (as in your statement above) whats the point?

Almost 90% of Lebanese and the vast majortiy of other Arab states see Hezbollah as a legitimate resistance movement but hey, whatever right? They're just Arabs who live there and everyone you know (In bloody buckinghamshire or from bloody Zimbabwe! ) thinks they're terrorists so we'll just go with that!?

Ridiculous!

Trouble is most of your facts are half-truths or downright lies. For instance, the palestinian arabs only have stones for weapons

[solo1bc]

Trouble is most of your facts are half-truths or downright lies. For instance, the palestinian arabs only have stones for weapons

Go away you silly little boy. The grown ups are talking now and we've all see where YOU get your 'facts' from;

Neocon Muppet!

[bristolborn_and_red]

Go away you silly little boy. The grown ups are talking now and we've all see where YOU get your 'facts' from;

Neocon Muppet!

No! :razz:

[Spud55]

I am a proud Englishman. I love my country. I love my heritage. I think we have the potential to lead the world in the next century.

Why then am I so ashamed today to be British?

Here's why;

[snip]

our policy makes sense, and if that makes us lapdogs then so be it, but mabye you should understand the political relationship between us and the Us a little better. They could treat us like a lapdog because we are insignificant in comparison they coul cripple us economically very easily but we have far more power over the Us than our world position gives us any right to have.

[Spud55]

Again though Bucks you're assuming the premise that if a single house is being used to fire rockets then the justification is there to destroy the entire street or village. I strongly disagree with that.

It's a modern phenomenen (since WW2) that countries aren't willing to sacrifice soldiers to do what they are paid for and prefer to level an area regardless of 'collateral damage' to avoid military losses.

No it isn't it's been a stable of war for many many centuries that civilians matter not when it comes to war. all world war 2 changed was that it was now more than ever legitiamte to target civillians in wartime. No military comander worth his salt valued civillians as highly as his troops, you did what you could to reduce your casualties, if that meant killing innocents then that happened. You think if Alexander came across the choice of killing a load of random innocents or loosing a number of his men to achieve an objective he wouldn't ? and he was one of if not the greatest millitary comander of all time.

Would you follow a leader that valued your life that low as a soldier, i know i wouldn't, a general who thought that would not last very long before either his men killed him for being an idiot or he was dismissed from above. As a commanding officer your first and primary concern is the lives of your men, and it always has been and always will be that way.

[solo1bc]

our policy makes sense, and if that makes us lapdogs then so be it, but mabye you should understand the political relationship between us and the Us a little better. They could treat us like a lapdog because we are insignificant in comparison they coul cripple us economically very easily but we have far more power over the Us than our world position gives us any right to have.

I couldn't give a toss about basking in the glory from another country! Is that what we've been reduced too?!

Surely any political relationship is harmfull unless it's as equal as possible. Perhaps you suggest we follow US culture even more as well.. Lawsuits, Obesity & Gun crime! Something to look forward to hey! What's so wrong with our own heritage and culture that our only shot at power is to suck up to the biggest bully available?

Personally, I'd be happy with whatever influence or power that 'we have a right to' on our own thanks very much.

No it isn't it's been a stable of war for many many centuries that civilians matter not when it comes to war. all world war 2 changed was that it was now more than ever legitiamte to target civillians in wartime. No military comander worth his salt valued civillians as highly as his troops, you did what you could to reduce your casualties, if that meant killing innocents then that happened. You think if Alexander came across the choice of killing a load of random innocents or loosing a number of his men to achieve an objective he wouldn't ? and he was one of if not the greatest millitary comander of all time.

Would you follow a leader that valued your life that low as a soldier, i know i wouldn't, a general who thought that would not last very long before either his men killed him for being an idiot or he was dismissed from above. As a commanding officer your first and primary concern is the lives of your men, and it always has been and always will be that way.

Um.. I don't think Alexander had cluster bombs though do you?

I accept that civilian losses have always been there BUT comparing modern warfare with anything before WW1 is just nonsense.

Different technology and different morals as well. Or are you suggesting that we haven't moved on since Alexander the Great?!

Sure, any military commander is going to do whatever possible to reduce his own losses but since when is it acceptable to 'shock & awe' an entire country before risking a single military casualty on the ground. Soldiers are paid to fight other soldiers not just walk in and pick up the body parts after the whole place has been levelled.

[bristolborn_and_red]

Here is an interesting clip about the global jihad and it might explain that the Israeli/Hezbollah war is just the opening of another front.

Its probably just NeoCon crap

[dagest]

Here is an interesting clip about the global jihad and it might explain that the Israeli/Hezbollah war is just the opening of another front.

Its probably just NeoCon crap

Yeah, it appears to be.

I could handle criticism of Jihad from aid agencies, pacifists etc, but not from the US. That appears to be where that video was produced given its emotive, professional production.

I don't suppose all the Jihad attacks in the last 10 years have amounted to the civilians killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. Where's the video of the US terrorists? Why aren't Blair and Bush hiding in a cave? They're the biggest murderers aren't they? Yet Tony boy is in receipt of a nice big wage directed from my taxes, visiting his buddies in Texas and ###### off on holiday for a while now isn't he? Jesus ###### Christ the world is full of hypocritical shite.

Anyway, what the hell has the Beslan massacre got to do with America's cause?