Israel - What's The Solution? [merged topics]

[Redhyde]

If you think there's a problem with what Israel are doing, or at least in the way they are doing it provide a solution. I'm sick of people moaning about the situation without having any idea what to do.

Don't tell me what the solution isn't. Tell me what it is. This is not a thread for dogma and propaganda from either side.

Re-wind the clock 20 days and you're in charge of Israel and have just learnt that hezbollah have captured two of your soldiers.

What's your reaction to this?

[dagest]

If you think there's a problem with what Israel are doing, or at least in the way they are doing it provide a solution. I'm sick of people moaning about the situation without having any idea what to do.

Don't tell me what the solution isn't. Tell me what it is. This is not a thread for dogma and propaganda from either side.

Re-wind the clock 20 days and you're in charge of Israel and have just learnt that hezbollah have captured two of your soldiers.

What's your reaction to this?

Use Israeli intelligence services and send in a rescue mission? Failing that, flatten the whole country and everyone in it... or accept that their soldiers are lost.

And for my utopian solution, I'll repeat what I said on the other thread:

the elimination of politicians and the power hungry would be a helpful start - it may be utopian, but as ol' Oscar said, "We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars."

[Redhyde]

Use Israeli intelligence services and send in a rescue mission? Failing that, flatten the whole country and everyone in it... or accept that their soldiers are lost.

And for my utopian solution, I'll repeat what I said on the other thread:

Gah! Don't tell me what the solution isn't!!!

Utopia just isn't going to happen unfortunateley. Is there a serious solution?

You can't just accept your soldiers ar lost! That's completely unacceptable to the Israeli public who feel so close to their army. You have to try something.

It's the right idea to try to use intelligence and send in a rescue mission for this one instance IMO but how do Israel stop the kidnappings and attacks in general?

[dagest]

You can't just accept your soldiers ar lost! That's completely unacceptable to the Israeli public who feel so close to their army. You have to try something.

Well, I don't think the value of two Israeli soldiers' lives are approximate to 500+ Lebanese lives and their society's social infrastructure. I'm not sure what the whole Israeli public think, but I'd be surprised if at least a few of them didn't have serious misgivings about this aggressive assualt.

how do Israel stop the kidnappings and attacks in general?

Revise their politics and policies?

[Redhyde]

Revise their politics and policies?

To what?

[dagest]

To what?

Stop bombing Lebenon, talk with Hamas, stop building walls, release prisoners, stop dictating to the Palestinians and possibly disassociating themselves with the US might be a step forward?

But hey, I don't think any of this will offer a long term solution, because peace is never possible in a system of institutionalized competition.

[solo1bc]

If you think there's a problem with what Israel are doing, or at least in the way they are doing it provide a solution. I'm sick of people moaning about the situation without having any idea what to do.

Don't tell me what the solution isn't. Tell me what it is. This is not a thread for dogma and propaganda from either side.

Re-wind the clock 20 days and you're in charge of Israel and have just learnt that hezbollah have captured two of your soldiers.

What's your reaction to this?

How about complying with UN resolutions? You know, the UN, that organisation which is supposed to represent the opinions of the entire world? Here's just a few that Israel is in breach of (I can't remember the numbers but I can research it if people want me to)

- To stop building settlements on Palestinian lands.

- To allow the Palestinian people a completely free state and return the lands captured in an illegal war.

- To release the approx. 5000 political prisoners currently held in Israeli prisons.

- To allow the safe return of the 1,000,000 palestinians living in refugee camps in Lebanon & Jordan.

- To stop the brutal military occupation of another country.

Palestinians should;

- Cease all terrorist activities. The deliberate targeting of civilians is unacceptable in any circumstances. Very difficult when all you have is stones to throw at the 3rd biggest army in the world but it's still no excuse.

Hezbollah should;

Be 'bigger' than Israel and stop the random missiles going in Haifa etc.

I don't consider the disarming of Hezbollah to be a requirement as they see themselves as a resistence and not a terrorist group as they are labeled in the west. They defend the south of the country so unless the Lebanese army is reequipped or a mix of ethnic groups is made mandatory I don't see why they should have to disarm.

So in summary, my solution is quite simple. Israel to comply with the only 'world' organisation that we have. The one they've been in breach of with the support of the united states for the last 40 years!

United States veto in the UN

For Palestine to fight their oppressor in more conventional way & for Hezbollah to take the first step in 'rising above' this cycle of violence.

This doesn't seem like 'utopian' thinking in my opinion. Just common sense.

[Nibor]

The USA and Britain to stop flogging dirt cheap arms and othe rmilitary hardware to Israel, and to stop backing them at every turn so that they have to actually justify their actions to the rest of the world and at least attempt to co-exist with their neighbours.

[grebes]

- Cease all terrorist activities. The deliberate targeting of civilians is unacceptable in any circumstances. Very difficult when all you have is stones to throw at the 3rd biggest army in the world but it's still no excuse.

Hezbollah should;

I don't consider the disarming of Hezbollah to be a requirement as they see themselves as a resistence and not a terrorist group as they are labeled in the west. They defend the south of the country so unless the Lebanese army is reequipped or a mix of ethnic groups is made mandatory I don't see why they should have to disarm.

So in summary, my solution is quite simple. Israel to comply with the only 'world' organisation that we have. The one they've been in breach of with the support of the united states for the last 40 years!

United States veto in the UN

For Palestine to fight their oppressor in more conventional way & for Hezbollah to take the first step in 'rising above' this cycle of violence.

This doesn't seem like 'utopian' thinking in my opinion. Just common sense.

Lebanon has no control over Hezbollah, they will not stop until the Israel no longer exists.

[Guest I bleed red 'n' white]

don't get involved.

its definately not out problem, and it should be left like that. if we interfere again we'll have another little country on our back. just leave them alone.

that is the solution, it doesn't concern us.

[solo1bc]

Lebanon has no control over Hezbollah, they will not stop until the Israel no longer exists.

And you know this HOW exactly? Know many people in Hezbollah do you?

don't get involved.

its definately not out problem, and it should be left like that. if we interfere again we'll have another little country on our back. just leave them alone.

that is the solution, it doesn't concern us.

How very humanitarian of you.

We were instrumental in the creation of the state of Israel (along with the rest of the Middle East map at some point or another) so it DOES concern us just a little bit IMHO!

[bristolborn_and_red]

Its obivious this guy has been reading the non-footy forum and is responding to Benny boy's pro-hezbollah propaganda.

So what is proportional

[Nibor]

Its obivious this guy has been reading the non-footy forum and is responding to Benny boy's pro-hezbollah propaganda.

So what is proportional

What point exactly are you trying to make?

All that article does is prove that the author has absolutely no understanding whatsoever of the meaning of proportionality or the steps necessary to end terrorism and armed conflict.

He even talks about "who started it"? What a complete muppet.

Do you really think that the kidnapping of two soldiers and firing of rockets by terrorists justifies Israel's response?

[Guest I bleed red 'n' white]

How very humanitarian of you.

We were instrumental in the creation of the state of Israel (along with the rest of the Middle East map at some point or another) so it DOES concern us just a little bit IMHO!

it not our fault they're fighting is it? so don't talk to me about humanitarian.

lets put it in regular context, if two random people in bristol started a fight would you stop it? NO

[solo1bc]

Its obivious this guy has been reading the non-footy forum and is responding to Benny boy's pro-hezbollah propaganda.

So what is proportional

When are you going to grow up?

I've specifically condemned Hezbollahs actions on other posts and even on this thread itself so please point out something pro-Hezbollah.

Why do I even bother replying to you?

You're an idiot.

[The Batman]

no doubt I will get slated for saying this, but 5h17 happens

it's our (Britain and USA's) fault for all this, we've dug a very deep hole yet we expect to climb right out of it with no problems at all. If we support Lebenon, you're seen as Anti-Semitic and if you support Israel, we're Islamaphobic. NO WIN, NO FEE.

The support by Britain and the USA would always lead to controversy in the middle east, it's only because the Jews have a major role in the American economy (IMO) that America stands by them so much. Yet, if America gets involved, they're accused of trying to police the world again. In this instance, it is different, but in essence, it's still the same.

The right thing to do would be to stay out of it, but as I said, we cant.

The diplomacy between America, Israel and Lebenon (to an extent Syria as well) should continue, and certain soldiers / freedom fighters / terrorists or whatever they're seen as, should be returned to their own countries first, I don't want to see more pics of young kids getting killed, no matter which side of the boarder it's happening on, yeh it's miles away, but as i said to Bensolo in a post a few weeks ago, it could lead to a form of 'domino effect', which we have to be part of to make sure that it don't.

But it aint as simple as that, the (dare I say it) "competition" between the two states was always going to lead to a major war some time or another, we were expecting it to happen for ages. More peace talks are needed, not more weaponary. But I doubt Hezbollah (SP) would be interested in talking to the Israelies and the Americans (and vise-versa)

But like i said, it may be too late for that.

disclaimer - not as well educated in the matter as certain people on here, but it's just my opinion from what i've heard / read / seen etc. I expect the media has it's own stint on the matter

now, i'll go home and watch even more about it.

[Nibor]

it not our fault they're fighting is it?

I suggest you listen more in school.

[solo1bc]

no doubt I will get slated for saying this, but 5h17 happens

it's our (Britain and USA's) fault for all this, we've dug a very deep hole yet we expect to climb right out of it with no problems at all. If we support Lebenon, you're seen as Anti-Semitic and if you support Israel, we're Islamaphobic. NO WIN, NO FEE.

The support by Britain and the USA would always lead to controversy in the middle east, it's only because the Jews have a major role in the American economy (IMO) that America stands by them so much. Yet, if America gets involved, they're accused of trying to police the world again. In this instance, it is different, but in essence, it's still the same.

The right thing to do would be to stay out of it, but as I said, we cant.

The diplomacy between America, Israel and Lebenon (to an extent Syria as well) should continue, and certain soldiers / freedom fighters / terrorists or whatever they're seen as, should be returned to their own countries first, I don't want to see more pics of young kids getting killed, no matter which side of the boarder it's happening on, yeh it's miles away, but as i said to Bensolo in a post a few weeks ago, it could lead to a form of 'domino effect', which we have to be part of to make sure that it don't.

But it aint as simple as that, the (dare I say it) "competition" between the two states was always going to lead to a major war some time or another, we were expecting it to happen for ages. More peace talks are needed, not more weaponary. But I doubt Hezbollah (SP) would be interested in talking to the Israelies and the Americans (and vise-versa)

But like i said, it may be too late for that.

disclaimer - not as well educated in the matter as certain people on here, but it's just my opinion from what i've heard / read / seen etc. I expect the media has it's own stint on the matter

now, i'll go home and watch even more about it.

Good post Danakin... Don't agree with all of it but it's genuine and heartfelt...

I think that most Arab states would love for both us and the US to 'stay out of it' and it the Wests continued support and 'turning a blind eye' to the crimes of the Israeli state that has many so enraged.

This is the 'reason' given by Bin Laden etc. for 9/11 remember (although I do believe that 9/11 & 7/7 was 'partly' an 'inside job' :Crazy:)

It's difficult because I feel for the normal Israeli as well and I'm sure they would be scared of attack if that was to happen but I truly believe that if Israel complied with UN resolutions to treat the Palestinians fairly then the Middle East could finally look forward to a future of peace and prosperity.

Jordan, Egypt, UAE & KSA would sit down with Israel in a heartbeat if they thought there own people would allow it right now so if Israel just comply then the more aggressive states (Syria & Iran) would have little choice but to 'tow the line' eventually. I don't have a crystal ball obviousely but that's what I believe and the alternative is just death and destruction for all.

There are some great documentaries about the Israeli lobby and their control on American policy available on the net and the best one is called um... Peace, Propoganda & the Holy Land... I think!

Very interesting on how the Middle East situation is shown in the media in the US and some insight as to why the Israeli government behave the way they do. Surprise, surprise... LAND & MONEY!!

it not our fault they're fighting is it? so don't talk to me about humanitarian.

What a ridiculous (and inaccurate) simplification. Learn your history or even just read a bit of current affairs (this interweb thing is incredibely easy ya know!) and you'll see that although it's not our fault directly in this case, indirectly the problems in many areas of the world (Africa, SE Asia & the Middle East) are very clearly 'our fault' and the result of either colonialism or our foreign policy combining with existing localised problems. At the very least we've certainly not helped these problems and often we've excaserbated (sp! ) or even created them.

lets put it in regular context, if two random people in bristol started a fight would you stop it? NO

If one of them was 6.4" with a baseball bat and the other was 5.0" with a chopstick then sure I would.

Wouldn't you?

[mozo]

no doubt I will get slated for saying this, but 5h17 happens

it's our (Britain and USA's) fault for all this, we've dug a very deep hole yet we expect to climb right out of it with no problems at all. If we support Lebenon, you're seen as Anti-Semitic and if you support Israel, we're Islamaphobic. NO WIN, NO FEE.

Simple answer to any such accusations is this: we're on the side of peace. The reason that the UK & US should get involved is because they have the sufficient sway on Israel that might prevent more innocent Lebanese fatalities.

There will be a constructive way of dealing with these issues, but Israel have to back off.

[bucksred]

Well, I don't think the value of two Israeli soldiers' lives are approximate to 500+ Lebanese lives and their society's social infrastructure. I'm not sure what the whole Israeli public think, but I'd be surprised if at least a few of them didn't have serious misgivings about this aggressive assualt.

I think you'll find thats EXACTLY what most Israelis think. summat to do with a gencide 60 years ago, of which few families wernt extensively devastated, in various ccamps. Add that to an almost entirely hostile group of neighbours, one of who wants to wipe Israel of the face of the map, and whos proxy (Hezbollah) is the outfit which started this little lot, in the full knowledge that the Israelis would do exactly what its done. Yeah I think most Israelis would back their Government (Around 95% in one poll yesterday)

Revise their politics and policies?

And the threat of Hezbollah, Hamas, Iran and Syria, all of whom want Israel wiped of the face of the earth. No I don't think so. IF Hezbollah, and Hamas are disarmed, Irans nuclear weapon ambitions, ended-THEN Israel will change its policies. and thats it really. One democracy, in a sea of theologicaL dictatorships, Police States, Fuedal monarchies, corrupt klepotcracies, and military juntas, and Israel is ALWAYS wrong????

They should evacuate the West Bank in its entirety, Gaz in entirity, the Golan, in its entirety, BUT, only after the right of existance of the state of Israel is made fact, the disarming of the terrorists (Hezbollah & Hamas-ever wondered why their leaders hide behind Syria, instead of being in the front line.)....takes the entire focus of war away. course it aint going to happen with Iran and Syria around will it.

One question the sympathisers of these religious fruitcakes: Why knowing Israel will attack your area, with the high tech toys, do you not build shelters for your people??? Like Israel has had snce the 50's??? Oh yeah, I know it suckers the press into thinking israelis are all murderers innit. And look at that lovely demo in Beirut with Western TV reporting calmy in the middle of a riot against the West (THE UN is the face there), and suddenly the demo finishes, just like that..........not an organized one that was it.......... cynical me??? Hush my mouth

Simple answer to any such accusations is this: we're on the side of peace. The reason that the UK & US should get involved is because they have the sufficient sway on Israel that might prevent more innocent Lebanese fatalities.

There will be a constructive way of dealing with these issues, but Israel have to back off.

And Hezbollah, Iran & Syria? Hundreds of rockets into Israel everyday too ya know. Difference is Israelis have shelters, because they are a properly run democracy, not a bunch of terrorists, who don't give a toss.

[dagest]

And the threat of Hezbollah, Hamas, Iran and Syria, all of whom want Israel wiped of the face of the earth. No I don't think so. IF Hezbollah, and Hamas are disarmed, Irans nuclear weapon ambitions, ended-THEN Israel will change its policies. and thats it really. One democracy, in a sea of theologicaL dictatorships, Police States, Fuedal monarchies, corrupt klepotcracies, and military juntas, and Israel is ALWAYS wrong????

They should evacuate the West Bank in its entirety, Gaz in entirity, the Golan, in its entirety, BUT, only after the right of existance of the state of Israel is made fact, the disarming of the terrorists (Hezbollah & Hamas-ever wondered why their leaders hide behind Syria, instead of being in the front line.)....takes the entire focus of war away. course it aint going to happen with Iran and Syria around will it.

One question the sympathisers of these religious fruitcakes: Why knowing Israel will attack your area, with the high tech toys, do you not build shelters for your people??? Like Israel has had snce the 50's??? Oh yeah, I know it suckers the press into thinking israelis are all murderers innit. And look at that lovely demo in Beirut with Western TV reporting calmy in the middle of a riot against the West (THE UN is the face there), and suddenly the demo finishes, just like that..........not an organized one that was it.......... cynical me??? Hush my mouth

And Hezbollah, Iran & Syria? Hundreds of rockets into Israel everyday too ya know. Difference is Israelis have shelters, because they are a properly run democracy, not a bunch of terrorists, who don't give a toss.

Whatever it is you're saying Bucks, I think I'll have to disagree.

[bucksred]

And you know this HOW exactly? Know many people in Hezbollah do you?

How very humanitarian of you.

Ah Ben, nice to see you out again. Hezbollah, IS commited to the destruction of the "zionist" state, thats Israel. and their main sponso is IRAN, whos predident is saying the same. And BEFORE you say he don't represent all Iranians, well, he was DEMOCRATICALLY elected.and so was Adolf Hitler, yet another charming anti Semite, with the same idea.

We were instrumental in the creation of the state of Israel (along with the rest of the Middle East map at some point or another) so it DOES concern us just a little bit IMHO!

We agree on something at last, although I don't think Israel would give us much credit for that, just your Muslim brothers blame us methinks. Us and the Yanks get blamed for everything, by everybody-neat escape of responsiblity there eh?

Like I said before Ben, to end hostilities, its simple: for every Arab country to recognize the right of Israel to exist. currently Jordan, Egypt (and I may be wrong here) the Gulf states, and errr thats it. recognize them, and that removes the need to occupy the West Bank and Gaza, as well as the Golan Heights. Disarm Hezbollah and Hamas at the same time, and that removes the other main threat, but there agin cant see that happening can you?

Whatever it is you're saying Bucks, I think I'll have to disagree.

So, Dagest, the idealist, what do you think of Hebollah, Hamas, and extremists in Iran who advocate the destruction of the state of Israel?

Simple question, simple answer. do you condemn, or condone their antics.

[dagest]

Like I said before Ben, to end hostilities, its simple: for every Arab country to recognize the right of Israel to exist. currently Jordan, Egypt (and I may be wrong here) the Gulf states, and errr thats it. recognize them, and that removes the need to occupy the West Bank and Gaza, as well as the Golan Heights. Disarm Hezbollah and Hamas at the same time, and that removes the other main threat, but there agin cant see that happening can you?

So, Dagest, the idealist, what do you think of Hebollah, Hamas, and extremists in Iran who advocate the destruction of the state of Israel?

Simple question, simple answer. do you condemn, or condone their antics.

Wow, "the idealist", there was a time when you used to dish out real insults to me Bucks.

I condemn all politicians.

I'm on the side of the ordinary man and woman.

[bucksred]

Wow, "the idealist", there was a time when you used to dish out real insults to me Bucks.

I condemn all politicians.

I'm on the side of the ordinary man and woman.

Dagest, your views are not mine, but you put them across well, but like a politician (sorry) you didnt answer my question.......the ordinary man or woman is not at issue here. We agree on that. Is Hezbollah/Hamas?Iran right or wrong. clearly you think the Israeli/Yank/British government is, and fair play for that.

[mozo]

And Hezbollah, Iran & Syria? Hundreds of rockets into Israel everyday too ya know. Difference is Israelis have shelters, because they are a properly run democracy, not a bunch of terrorists, who don't give a toss.

Yeh we need to use our powers to influence those nefarious influences too. This politics lark is easy!!

[Spud55]

What Israel should have done is to speak to the Lebanese government first. They knew what the consequences of hezbollahs actions would be, and large parts of the lebanese government are not pro hezbollah, then in any way possible get the lebanese army to assist in destroying hezbollah.

People say Israel are wrong in this case but they are't all the death is of hezbollah's doing, they attacked Israel unprovoked, because hezbollah ad certain elements in Hamas and certain elements within the israeli millitary are not interested in peace. Problem is certain people in Israel can take this position because they will win, as they have done time and time again when attacked, the arab states around Israel are going to have to accept them sooner or later or accept that If they continue to attack them ten they are going to get ****** up by arguably the best military force on the planet.

[hilltop red]

I'm on the side of the ordinary man and woman.

How do you decide who is oridinary?

[mozo]

How do you decide who is oridinary?

They don't work in parliament dictating bollox to the masses whilst making themselve rich, and boning anything that'll have em.

[dagest]

They don't work in parliament dictating bollox to the masses whilst making themselve rich, and boning anything that'll have em.

And if you don't mind my adding to your comments Sir...they don't tell me who to hate.

[bucksred]

And if you don't mind my adding to your comments Sir...they don't tell me who to hate.

Amen to that brother, amen to that. I decide who I hate, no-one else.