George Galloway

[KevinC]

Here we go mate!War for Israel

Thisx is good stuff, worth a read

[hilltop red]

Thisx is good stuff, worth a read

on another page it claims israel will own 40% of the world soil.

What an utter crap propaganda site. It also claims the iraq invasion was about water supplies.

Turkey controls the water to the middle east and the only water war will be with them, when they build the proposed dams to generate HEP.

[solo1bc]

on another page it claims israel will own 40% of the world soil.

What an utter crap propaganda site. It also claims the iraq invasion was about water supplies.

Turkey controls the water to the middle east and the only water war will be with them, when they build the proposed dams to generate HEP.

It's like any conspiracy site hilltop... Take from it what fits with what you've learned elsewhere and throw the rest away...

With the massive zionist infiltration and corruption of the US political and media systems there not far wrong about 40% anyway in my opinion!

We are untouchable!

The occupation of Gaza is very much about water though as was the continued occupation of Southern Lebanon until 2000.

[bucksred]

The occupation of Gaza is very much about water though as was the continued occupation of Southern Lebanon until 2000.

I'm genuinely intrigued by this, do explain. not a p1sstake, I really am interested. everyone knows that area is a timebomb, but the water issue I have never heard about.

[KevinC]

I'm genuinely intrigued by this, do explain. not a p1sstake, I really am interested. everyone knows that area is a timebomb, but the water issue I have never heard about.

Am not claiming to be as well versed on all this as Ben, but here goes:

Israel, Jordan and the Palestinian territories get water from the River Jordan, which is not the mighty waterway we might have thought it to be. The River Avon is an ocean compared to it.

The Jordan is fed by springs which run into Lake Tiberias (the Sea of Galilee), and then the Jordan heads south, providing in part the national and territorial boundaries of the countries above named.

The trouble is that Lake Tiberias is located wholly in Israel, and so the Israelis pump water for themselces from the Lake, reducing the amount of water going into the Jordan valley, and depriving Palestinians and Jordanians of much needed water.

An aerial photograph of the river Jordan shows that the amount of water reaching the Dead Sea at its soughernmost point is much reduced. Hotels which were once located on the Dead Sea shore are now half a mile from the shore in some places, and all in all the Israelis have their neighbours by the short and curlies over the water supply.

Or something like that.

[solo1bc]

I'm genuinely intrigued by this, do explain. not a p1sstake, I really am interested. everyone knows that area is a timebomb, but the water issue I have never heard about.

The reverand summarised it very nicely above Bucks but the long and short of it is that Israeli settlers in the Gaza strip for example get approx. 7 times the amount of water per person per day than the Palestinians despite being only 0.6% of the population.

Also, whatever little water Palestinans do get is often shut off during the summer to ensure no disruption to the supply of the illegal settlements.

Just another example unfortunately of the brutal oppression that people seem to ignore when talking about peace in the Middle East.

I just don't understand people who think there can ever be peace or an end to 'terrorism' while this kind of social justice is accepted and in some cases actively supported. Forget the emotions involved, it's just not logical.

[KevinC]

Ten years ago I was in Israel, and was taken by taxi from Tel Aviv airport to Jerusalem.

As we drove, the taxi driver pointed out the differences between Israel and Palestine, and showed me how green and well irrigated were the Israeli farms while the Palestinian lands were parched and dry, and in his opinion the Palestinians coudn't look after themselves.

Later I spoke with Palestinian farmers who told me that the Israelis routinely turned off the water supply to the Palestinian territories, thus depriving much needed water for agriculture and domestic use.

In addition to water, the Israelis have prevented the Palestinian airport in Gaza from being used, have frozen bank accounts of the Palestinian Government and have effectively imprisoned whole towns and villages within the so-called "security barrier".

So many injustices have been carried out against the Palestinian population that the tensions have spilt out in violence and suicide bombings against Israelis. I cannot condone these actions but at the same time one canmot help but wonder how much we would take from an oppressive regime before we responded in kind.

[bucksred]

The reverand summarised it very nicely above Bucks but the long and short of it is that Israeli settlers in the Gaza strip for example get approx. 7 times the amount of water per person per day than the Palestinians despite being only 0.6% of the population.

Also, whatever little water Palestinans do get is often shut off during the summer to ensure no disruption to the supply of the illegal settlements.

Just another example unfortunately of the brutal oppression that people seem to ignore when talking about peace in the Middle East.

I just don't understand people who think there can ever be peace or an end to 'terrorism' while this kind of social justice is accepted and in some cases actively supported. Forget the emotions involved, it's just not logical.

Fair Dos, don't disagree with you there one bit. Gotta be a GENUINE settlement there pronto, this is been goin on FAAAAAAAAAAAAR too long now, its no longer a local issue, its affecting every single one of us world wide. curse bloody politicians gobshyte wasters that they all bloody are.

No danger of sanity breaking out is there?

[solo1bc]

I cannot condone these actions but at the same time one canmot help but wonder how much we would take from an oppressive regime before we responded in kind.

I'm really starting to like you quite a lot Reverend! Someone who speaks from experience rather than Ann Coulters website!

For all those people on here who simply cannot understand how or why terrorism and conflict exists in the world & Middle East (not those who don't even bother to ask - you know who you are!) or for those who like to throw the label 'apologist' around then just imagine the following;

A foreign power decides that a part of the west country is going to be given to another foreign people. Most of these people have never lived on this land or have any recent ancestors in this land. People from the same religion used to live there thousands of years ago though so...

After some time and a few terrorist attacks by these foreign people, we and our neighbours obviousely object. We react badly and in the resulting conflict, these foreign people with the support of the biggest superpower in the world then capture ALL of the west country.

These foreign people then brutally oppress you every single day! They deny you the most basic human rights. They deny you healthcare, education, employment, water, freedom of movement & freedom of expression.

To take a journey that used to take 30 minutes now takes upto 10 hours and that's if you lucky enough to be allowed to travel anyway.

They keep taking even more of your land and create a system of apartheid where your a second class citizen in what's left of your own country. You now live in a refugee camp by the way and they've even put up a big fence denying you access to what used to be your land.

They kill your family, kidnap you and terrorise your community every single day. On a whim and just for 'what' you are.

You have no money, no future and no security. The rest rest of the world doesn't seem to give a **** and the governments of your neighbours are being paid off by the original forign powers or are just too selfish/weak to do anything.

Imagine this has been going on for the last 40 years!

What do you think YOU or WE would be capable of doing in those circumstances? Does anyone really think they could just walk away and say 'oh well, let bygones be bygones, keep the land, do what you want, I'm happy in my tent with no prospects and no human rights?'

In that context, considering we've had riots in this country over relatevely small things like unfair taxes or unemployment, what do you think would happen?

To predict some responses to this then, yes, you could talk about the non-violent resistence in South Africa (it wasn't all non-violent though!) for example. Let's not forget though that South Africa was completely ostracised (sp) and boycotted during that time and wasn't openly supported by the rest of the world.

As the reverend said, how much do you think we could take before responding in kind?

No danger of sanity breaking out is there?

Not if this forum is anything to go by Bucks!

[hilltop red]

I'm really starting to like you quite a lot Reverend! Someone who speaks from experience rather than Ann Coulters website!

For all those people on here who simply cannot understand how or why terrorism and conflict exists in the world & Middle East (not those who don't even bother to ask - you know who you are!) or for those who like to throw the label 'apologist' around then just imagine the following;

A foreign power decides that a part of the west country is going to be given to another foreign people. Most of these people have never lived on this land or have any recent ancestors in this land. People from the same religion used to live there thousands of years ago though so...

After some time and a few terrorist attacks by these foreign people, we and our neighbours obviousely object. We react badly and in the resulting conflict, these foreign people with the support of the biggest superpower in the world then capture ALL of the west country.

These foreign people then brutally oppress you every single day! They deny you the most basic human rights. They deny you healthcare, education, employment, water, freedom of movement & freedom of expression.

To take a journey that used to take 30 minutes now takes upto 10 hours and that's if you lucky enough to be allowed to travel anyway.

They keep taking even more of your land and create a system of apartheid where your a second class citizen in what's left of your own country. You now live in a refugee camp by the way and they've even put up a big fence denying you access to what used to be your land.

They kill your family, kidnap you and terrorise your community every single day. On a whim and just for 'what' you are.

You have no money, no future and no security. The rest rest of the world doesn't seem to give a **** and the governments of your neighbours are being paid off by the original forign powers or are just too selfish/weak to do anything.

Imagine this has been going on for the last 40 years!

What do you think YOU or WE would be capable of doing in those circumstances? Does anyone really think they could just walk away and say 'oh well, let bygones be bygones, keep the land, do what you want, I'm happy in my tent with no prospects and no human rights?'

In that context, considering we've had riots in this country over relatevely small things like unfair taxes or unemployment, what do you think would happen?

To predict some responses to this then, yes, you could talk about the non-violent resistence in South Africa (it wasn't all non-violent though!) for example. Let's not forget though that South Africa was completely ostracised (sp) and boycotted during that time and wasn't openly supported by the rest of the world.

As the reverend said, how much do you think we could take before responding in kind?

Not if this forum is anything to go by Bucks!

Nicely put. I believe palastine should be a free nation. As should Tibet. And here in england lets not forget about the EU, basically running our everyday lives. It's the same reason why we should always hold on to gibraltor and the falklands, those people are british, not argintine or spanish.

However palastinans and forign militants are not helping by blowing themselves and innocents up in the name of freedom, it gives the israelis the excuse they need to give to america and britain to attack and keep the palastinan people under control.

[solo1bc]

Nicely put. I believe palastine should be a free nation. As should Tibet. And here in england lets not forget about the EU, basically running our everyday lives. It's the same reason why we should always hold on to gibraltor and the falklands, those people are british, not argintine or spanish.

However palastinans and forign militants are not helping by blowing themselves and innocents up in the name of freedom, it gives the israelis the excuse they need to give to america and britain to attack and keep the palastinan people under control.

Thanks hilltop... Nice to see that although you often have different views to my own we can find some common ground and discuss things in a civil manner..

Regarding your second point it's a bit 'chicken and egg' isn't it... I agree that the Palestinians would get more sympathy and claim the moral high ground (although you could argue that considering their recent history and no matter their sometimes despicable tactics they already do) by 'turning the other cheek' so to speak... The deliberate targeting of civilians can never be justified... Can you imagine that we would be able to do that though considering the points in my post? Tough one ain't it?!

If you are routinely oppressed as my post said though then I'd also imagine that you can justify almost anything to yourself... Life is cheap in Palestine and they must see it as a 'them or us' situation i.e. if the Israeli's can deliberately target our civilians through force or occupation (with the 'seeming' support of their people and the majority of the world) then why can't we do the same? Not right but understandable at a stretch.

You could also completely turn that statement around to us as well. What gives the US, UK or Israel the right to carpet bomb entire nations in the name of freedom? Or empose sanctions that kill millions? Or biased economic policies that cripple continents?

You could argue (and I do!) that by following these foreign policies we give the radical elements in these countries the 'excuse' to keep carrying out thier own attacks...

[The Batman]

You could argue (and I do!) that by following these foreign policies we give the radical elements in these countries the 'excuse' to keep carrying out thier own attacks...

Foreign Policy fuelling extremism?

can't find proper link off bbc site, but i think it's this.

extremism.

[hilltop red]

Thanks hilltop... Nice to see that although you often have different views to my own we can find some common ground and discuss things in a civil manner..

Regarding your second point it's a bit 'chicken and egg' isn't it... I agree that the Palestinians would get more sympathy and claim the moral high ground (although you could argue that considering their recent history and no matter their sometimes despicable tactics they already do) by 'turning the other cheek' so to speak... The deliberate targeting of civilians can never be justified... Can you imagine that we would be able to do that though considering the points in my post? Tough one ain't it?!

If you are routinely oppressed as my post said though then I'd also imagine that you can justify almost anything to yourself... Life is cheap in Palestine and they must see it as a 'them or us' situation i.e. if the Israeli's can deliberately target our civilians through force or occupation (with the 'seeming' support of their people and the majority of the world) then why can't we do the same? Not right but understandable at a stretch.

You could also completely turn that statement around to us as well. What gives the US, UK or Israel the right to carpet bomb entire nations in the name of freedom? Or empose sanctions that kill millions? Or biased economic policies that cripple continents?

You could argue (and I do!) that by following these foreign policies we give the radical elements in these countries the 'excuse' to keep carrying out thier own attacks...

We are not in the position thankfully to ever contemplate blowing ourselves and innocents up. And as such, think that suicide bombs should be condemend by all sides. The iraq war is indefensible, and the british contingent there so small compared to the US's that we should now leave. I think in afghanastan we have the right to go after the terrost training camps, and that the nato mission is just, and that the members of nato should send more troops to the area. Whether it's ground troops or special forces, to protect us from al quieda(sp) and the afghans from talaban rule. Pressure on the pakistan goverment should increase to stop the border crossings and the extremisim that grows there.

I do not think the disproval of a countries forigen policy is a reason to kill yourself and others, i consider it evil, and the support of such sick. In britain you are able to vote for parties with a differing foriegn policy to blairs, and that is the route in which people should go.

[solo1bc]

I do not think the disproval of a countries forigen policy is a reason to kill yourself and others, i consider it evil, and the support of such sick. In britain you are able to vote for parties with a differing foriegn policy to blairs, and that is the route in which people should go.

I agree that the disaproval of a countries foreign policy isn't a justification hilltop. That's not what I'm trying to say.

The extremist view though is that it's a war against the people brutally oppressing them (the US & UK are perceived to be culpable if not responsible due to their support of Israel and now the illegal invasion of Iraq). Civilians are collateral damage in that war in the same way we (not me, but people in the west) seem to accept collateral damage (by collateral damage I mean murder of innocent civilians by the way!) by our armed forces.

The differences are that they don't have billion dollar military budgets with which to attack and have to resort to manipulation of a religious ideal/idiots instead. I was tempted to say resort to 'terror tactics' there which is true but if you can find a people who have been more 'terrorised' than the Palestinians in the last 50 years I'd like to know about it. If the tactics of the extremists are terrorism then so are the tactics of the US & Israel.

Palestine just had a democratic election. Hamas won. Israel has just kidnapped the equivalant of 3 cabinet ministers with no action taken by the international community against them.

Again, imagine this has been going on for 40 years and then you can start to understand where these extreme views come from.

I agree that the Taliban were a sore on the face of the earth but if we are right to topple brutal dictatorships then why stop there? Half the countries in Africa have or have had brutal dictatorships and we didn't do anything then or now? What about Saudi Arabia? Or China for that matter?

We cannot win this 'war' with bombs and soldiers. Your fighting a ghost and when you kill one it creates another ten! The only way we will achieve peace is with social justice and respect for ALL human beings. Proper tree-huggy I know but it's the cold, hard truth as well.

Surely our politicians must know this? It's just simple logic. Makes you wonder what they're trying to achieve. Is it neo-imperialism, corrupt national interest or the controlling of it's own population with the removal of civil liberties and the creation of a police/surveillance state?

All of the above?

[hilltop red]

I agree that the disaproval of a countries foreign policy isn't a justification hilltop. That's not what I'm trying to say.

The extremist view though is that it's a war against the people brutally oppressing them (the US & UK are perceived to be culpable if not responsible due to their support of Israel and now the illegal invasion of Iraq). Civilians are collateral damage in that war in the same way we (not me, but people in the west) seem to accept collateral damage (by collateral damage I mean murder of innocent civilians by the way!) by our armed forces.

The differences are that they don't have billion dollar military budgets with which to attack and have to resort to manipulation of a religious ideal/idiots instead. I was tempted to say resort to 'terror tactics' there which is true but if you can find a people who have been more 'terrorised' than the Palestinians in the last 50 years I'd like to know about it. If the tactics of the extremists are terrorism then so are the tactics of the US & Israel.

Palestine just had a democratic election. Hamas won. Israel has just kidnapped the equivalant of 3 cabinet ministers with no action taken by the international community against them.

Again, imagine this has been going on for 40 years and then you can start to understand where these extreme views come from.

I agree that the Taliban were a sore on the face of the earth but if we are right to topple brutal dictatorships then why stop there? Half the countries in Africa have or have had brutal dictatorships and we didn't do anything then or now? What about Saudi Arabia? Or China for that matter?

We cannot win this 'war' with bombs and soldiers. Your fighting a ghost and when you kill one it creates another ten! The only way we will achieve peace is with social justice and respect for ALL human beings. Proper tree-huggy I know but it's the cold, hard truth as well.

Surely our politicians must know this? It's just simple logic. Makes you wonder what they're trying to achieve. Is it neo-imperialism, corrupt national interest or the controlling of it's own population with the removal of civil liberties and the creation of a police/surveillance state?

All of the above?

Thats too big and too complicated to debate in one go.

All i'm going to say is that we went to war in afghanistan because of national security reasons, we were feed the same line for iraq, which has created more problems than it solved, if any. In regards to the other countries and africa they do not provide a threat to us, but the lack of intervention from britain and the UN is scandalous, people are more intrested in live aid and comic relief rather than freeing them from unwanted and unneeded boarders.

My view of Africa is that it is still heavliy tribal. And one tribe will not tolerate the other tribe being in power, or in existance. the population growth in recent times has only added to the problem, due to extra competition for land and water.

[KevinC]

My view of Africa is that it is still heavliy tribal. And one tribe will not tolerate the other tribe being in power, or in existance. the population growth in recent times has only added to the problem, due to extra competition for land and water.

Africa IS tribal, and has managed rather well at that for centuries until the European powers came in and captured the lands, drawing arbitrary lines on maps which divided people from people and put conflicting groups into the same nation states, upsetting centuries old balance of rule and causing untold grief after "independence".

It is arguable that the Rwandan genocide would never have happened had Africans drawn the maps in the first place

[hilltop red]

Africa IS tribal, and has managed rather well at that for centuries until the European powers came in and captured the lands, drawing arbitrary lines on maps which divided people from people and put conflicting groups into the same nation states, upsetting centuries old balance of rule and causing untold grief after "independence".

It is arguable that the Rwandan genocide would never have happened had Africans drawn the maps in the first place

If the lines were drew correctley, or no lines drew at all would africans still be fighting each other? Do some warring tribes even know these boarders exist?

I watched that bloke in tribes a few weeks back, 3 different tribes all fighting each other and other tribes, all in ethopia. Is it like that eleswhere?

[bucksred]

Africa IS tribal, and has managed rather well at that for centuries until the European powers came in and captured the lands, drawing arbitrary lines on maps which divided people from people and put conflicting groups into the same nation states, upsetting centuries old balance of rule and causing untold grief after "independence".

It is arguable that the Rwandan genocide would never have happened had Africans drawn the maps in the first place

THAT, squire is where you are totally wrong.

Both Rwanda & Burundi had the same ethnic mix, and had the same genocide Burundi, not as badly

In Zimbabwe, the Shona & Ndebele are enclosed within the "arbitary" borders, and in 1982, the "Gukunderundi"...... cleansing of 200,00 Ndebele by the majority Shona took place, and is still going on today.

All over Africa tribalism is alive and well.......they were going raiding for slaves from weaker tribes on West & East coasts for centuries.in East africa until the mid 1800's. Think Europe 250 years ago.

As the Bantu tribes moved south across Africa they wiped out every tribe in their way, including the San (Bushman of south Central Africa). all you can see of the San in most of southern and Central Africa is their rock art, and where they live on the margins of deserts.

The arbitary lines you talk of are ertainly true of some countries, but of others.

Possibly the only way the whites can be blamed in all this is by the acceptance of one tribe over another. for example Zulu, Ndebele, Shangaan all from southern Africa, are from Zulu stock, and are all formidible warriors, and therefore got treated with respect (All three handed White forces a kicking or two). some others adapted the ways of the West, through education and working hard. This created resentment along tribla lines, which ALREADY existed.......Rwanda, Zimbabwe, Kenya, Nigeria to name but four countries when tribal based trouble has taken place, quite apart from Rwanda/Burundi/Zaire.

Add that to the kleptomaniac ruthlessness most of the leaders have, and their Communist training a lot of them (Mugabe,Njoma, Neto, Machel) the colonial pull (Bokassa, and other French West African ex colonies)

Power is hugely important to the older African, and status. for the younger generation, they see power getting them what they want.......and soldiers out there see themselves as rulers too.

Big Power politics completes the whole sorry saga.........Its a forkin mess, and we cant just leave it like that. The continent is too important, way too important to waste its massive potential. And yes I'm African, third, and last generation, sadly.