Otib Update:

[Nibor]

I have had the pleasure of being a moderator both on TFF and on here and the difference in audience is palpable.

Over on TFF (probably because it has always been that way) there is a lot of acceptance from the wide audience that moderating decisions are final. Yes you get the odd challenge from the person who has been moderated but they are told in no uncertain terms that if they don't like it they can **** off.

On here, the moderating team tries to be more relaxed but on the odd occasion that we have had to be more firm we get thread after thread complaining about our actions.

For instance, on TFF if a new user starts off using "txt spk" the first to point this out to them are the users. If it continues they get a one-time-only PM from the mods outlining that it isn't allowed. Continue and they are banned. OTIB isn't as strict as that, maybe we should be?

I know the audience being different is the main difference between the sites

I think on TFF there's more... well I guess I mean good conventions that the users just follow without being told to, which means a mod would find it much easier to enforce them.

Don't start a new thread if you can find one on the same topic in a reasonable time frame, add to the old one.

Attack the post not the poster.

Don't bother rehashing favourite_topic_02 that's been done to death umpteen times before.

Don't bother making one line "I agree/You're a muppet" posts.

and other sensible rules of thumb like that.

txt spk isn't a big problem on here and does tend to get slapped, I was just using it to characterize part of what I meant by inane gibberish.

[BigTone]

Obviously my figures could be wrong and I'm probably out of order to suggest them however:

An advertising link top and bottom on all the forums would have to pay: £125 top and £75 bottom per month for the idea of just top and bottom to work financially I'd have thought.

If either of the individuals who have shown an interest would be prepared to pay that then great, members should get first option. If not I can probably sell them to two reputable local businesses on perhaps 3 month initial contracts.

My figures are actually wrong because I added up the amount of posts myself instead of looking at the Board Stats given (I'm a Quantity Surveyor so why do things the easy way).

However, I based my figures over 2 years and notice that you joined the Forum in 2003. TomF also joined in 2003 so lets say the figures should be over 3 years and not 2.

Ok the Math:

590383 posts x 1p = £5903.83. Therefore £1967.94 per year or £163.99 per month.

I think your idea certainly has a lot of merit. I would be happy to let both my Surveying & Holiday business's sponsor a page.

Obviously final costs would be set by The Forum admin as we don't know how much they need to recoup.

Another idea that came to mind is that users pay a yearly registration fee of say £2. We have in the region of 3800 registered users so this would generate £7600 per year or £633.33 per month. Do this in conjunction with limited advertising and you have a forum that can pay its way.

One downside to paying a yearly registration (or pay per post) is the increased costs to the forum in the administration of payments.

Fair points, but, there needs to be a separate exercise done to restrict the amount of dross as this forum is a big turn-off for many.

There are so many posters disappearing never to re-surface and the decline of the overall quality here has been rapid.

If the negativity and cr@p continues, more and more will go elsewhere. This could end up a forum of adverts with illiterates trying to read them. Hey-ho.

Generally I think the Moderators do an excellent (and thankless) job.

Perhaps the answer to the problem is to look for volunteers and increase the number of Moderators.

[andy g]

Apologies if this has already been answered, but how much DOES the forum cost to run ?

[Guest SteveA]

It used to cost the club 6k

[cheshire_red]

It used to cost the club 6k

A misconception, nobody like to give the actual figure but from what i know it's very considerably less than it should be.

[Guest SteveA]

A misconception, nobody like to give the actual figure but from what i know it's very considerably less than it should be.

Thats one of the Mods or ST members said on a few occasions. If they don't know or are lying then god help us.

As a result of Bristol City Fans moderating the otib forum, plus paying Clik's fees, we have conservatively calculated that we'll save Bristol City Football Club at least £6000 every year. (Possibly the equivalent cost of an Academy 1st Year Graduate)

[Guest]

The six grand figure takes into account the hours that BCFC staff used to spend moderating and so forth.

Less that half of that would cover a years hosting. I won't give the extact figure because its a bit of a sensative subject as we host other forums as well.

The penny per post thing is a non starter before anyone even discusses it - the amount of modification required to set it up would be extensive and with IPB bringing out regular updates (both feature & security wise) it would become a very tiresome update process each time.

The subscription manager has worked well on other boards we host. That allows the user to pay a fee (optional I might add) to gain extra features.

[Guest SteveA]

Less that half of that would cover a years hosting. I won't give the extact figure because its a bit of a sensative subject as we host other forums as well.

So can we assume between 2k-3k?

[Guest]

So can we assume between 2k-3k?

I think the ST would like to be raising 3k a year just so they have reserves, but yeah.

[cheshire_red]

So can we assume between 2k-3k?

The idea of the banner advert top and bottom on every page of the forum would get close to covering the hosting costs. The £125 for top and £75 for the bottom would be on each page not per page, as obviously this forum is by far the most popular (I think) it wouldn't be practical to charge differing amounts for each page so blanket cost gives £200 pre month = £2,400 per annum for doing nowt. Easy to arrange, unobtrusive, where's the problem.

Then the donations and shopping buttons can add a bit extra to cover any extra costs that may be incurred. Or is the idea to make a profit?

[tompo]

The idea of the banner advert top and bottom on every page of the forum would get close to covering the hosting costs. The £125 for top and £75 for the bottom would be on each page not per page, as obviously this forum is by far the most popular (I think) it wouldn't be practical to charge differing amounts for each page so blanket cost gives £200 pre month = £2,400 per annum for doing nowt. Easy to arrange, unobtrusive, where's the problem.

Then the donations and shopping buttons can add a bit extra to cover any extra costs that may be incurred. Or is the idea to make a profit?

The idea is to cover the running costs of this forum. If there is a profit OTIB users wil be consulted as to how the money is used.

[Dolman Block B]

The six grand figure takes into account the hours that BCFC staff used to spend moderating and so forth.

Less that half of that would cover a years hosting. I won't give the extact figure because its a bit of a sensative subject as we host other forums as well.

The penny per post thing is a non starter before anyone even discusses it - the amount of modification required to set it up would be extensive and with IPB bringing out regular updates (both feature & security wise) it would become a very tiresome update process each time.

The subscription manager has worked well on other boards we host. That allows the user to pay a fee (optional I might add) to gain extra features.

Well the way i look at it is all members SHOULD pay an annual fee to be part of OTIB.

What will happen is we will lose quite a number who only occasionally listen in, but most nights when I'm on here, you almost ALWAYS see the same names .

This forum to them, and including myself, has become a bit of a drug.

Its good for imformation, stuff crops up on here so quickly, and most of the time its true.

So then, this fee.

Surley the mods can send each member an e mail or pm asking them to comment on a proposed yearly fee to keep this forum running.

See what the feedback is and if enough can be raised to cover the running costs.

Surley £25 a year aint going hurt no one.

Why i come up with that figure i don't know.

The feedback will dictate how much to charge.

You don't get nothing for nothing these days, and should this forum close because of lack of money, most will feel sad about that.

Your comments back would be welcome.

Mark.

[BigTone]

Well the way i look at it is all members SHOULD pay an annual fee to be part of OTIB.

What will happen is we will lose quite a number who only occasionally listen in, but most nights when I'm on here, you almost ALWAYS see the same names .

This forum to them, and including myself, has become a bit of a drug.

Its good for imformation, stuff crops up on here so quickly, and most of the time its true.

So then, this fee.

Surley the mods can send each member an e mail or pm asking them to comment on a proposed yearly fee to keep this forum running.

See what the feedback is and if enough can be raised to cover the running costs.

Surley £25 a year aint going hurt no one.

Why i come up with that figure i don't know.

The feedback will dictate how much to charge.

You don't get nothing for nothing these days, and should this forum close because of lack of money, most will feel sad about that.

Your comments back would be welcome.

Mark.

I think its a good idea although £25 might be a bit high.

According to the stats we have 3852 members. Lets assume that we may lose 50% as the worse possible scenario. That means 1926 members x 25 quid = £48150.00.

A nice profit I agree but when set against costs of around £3000 this could be a tad OTT.

If the cost was say £5 then it would raise £9630 which when set against costs is more realistic.

We must remember that there are kids and students on here who are not working and may not be able to afford £25. We must make it affordable for all.

The forum will still raise some funds via the shopping forum and a little more should limited advertising be allowed.

Remember as well the cheaper it is the less likely we are of losing members and revenue from the shopping forum (less members, less shoppers).

With regards where the profit goes maybe lob them into the money raised by the BFD each year. Just a thought.

[Dan C]

Maybe have premier members area which is less moderated and members pay a fee annually?

[Meh]

Why not charge a fee to visit the Supporters Trust forum?

If you offered it on pay-per-view at the moment, i'd take it. It's like watching EastEnders with a decent script.

Go ljp !

[Guest]

Maybe have premier members area which is less moderated and members pay a fee annually?

Its what works well on another forum. Basically £5 per year, they get a unmoderated forum (within limits) and get access to more upload/pm space, and a free email address too

[BigTone]

Its what works well on another forum. Basically £5 per year, they get a unmoderated forum (within limits) and get access to more upload/pm space, and a free email address too

Is it easy to set up?

[Guest]

Is it easy to set up?

It would be a doddle, the forum software includes it. Payment processing can be from a variety of online payment systems and also Cheque/PO manual processing. You sign up, your automatcially given that group status and you get the priveledges associated with it.

As I said, it works well elsewhere

[BigTone]

It would be a doddle, the forum software includes it. Payment processing can be from a variety of online payment systems and also Cheque/PO manual processing. You sign up, your automatcially given that group status and you get the priveledges associated with it.

As I said, it works well elsewhere

Well, if its decided to do it, then count me in.

[Dan C]

It would be a doddle, the forum software includes it. Payment processing can be from a variety of online payment systems and also Cheque/PO manual processing. You sign up, your automatcially given that group status and you get the priveledges associated with it.

As I said, it works well elsewhere

Sounds good and I think it should be possibly given a trial and see how it goes. Personally I think it will be a great success and will raise a decent percentage of the running costs.

£5 a year isn't going to break the bank for anyone really. 100 people at £5 a year is £500 200 people is £1000, Now with the members this board has I don't think it will be unrealistic to expect between 100-200 premier members.

[Nibor]

I totally disagree with the idea of charging to post or charging for membership, it will significantly damage the forum, we won't get new blood or casual visitors. Otib isn't just about people like me who post daily, it should be available to every city fan on the internet.

That idea should only be explored if it's found that inobtrusive advertising does not produce the revenue. Normal Adsense type adverts should easily generate the cash so it shouldn't be an issue.

[Dan C]

I totally disagree with the idea of charging to post or charging for membership, it will significantly damage the forum, we won't get new blood or casual visitors. Otib isn't just about people like me who post daily, it should be available to every city fan on the internet.

That idea should only be explored if it's found that inobtrusive advertising does not produce the revenue. Normal Adsense type adverts should easily generate the cash so it shouldn't be an issue.

But you will have a choice if you wanted to become a premier member or not. If you do you get to join a lessly moderated forum and if you don't then it will just be the same but with a extra forum that you can't access.

I don't see the harm in that.

[Nibor]

But you will have a choice if you wanted to become a premier member or not. If you do you get to join a lessly moderated forum and if you don't then it will just be the same but with a extra forum that you can't access.

I don't see the harm in that.

Some people were talking about membership charges across the board.

Anyway, I don't see the point in segregating users when more than enough money can be made from a simple advert.

Also, what do you mean by lessly moderated? It can't be any less moderated from a legal point of view, the word filter has already been slackened, so all we're really talking about is people wanting to use the F and C words in posts... what's the point in that?

[BigTone]

I totally disagree with the idea of charging to post or charging for membership, it will significantly damage the forum, we won't get new blood or casual visitors. Otib isn't just about people like me who post daily, it should be available to every city fan on the internet.

That idea should only be explored if it's found that inobtrusive advertising does not produce the revenue. Normal Adsense type adverts should easily generate the cash so it shouldn't be an issue.

But nothing will change and it will still be available to all at no cost. The premier section will offer a few extra benefits (as per TomF's post) for those willing to pay. Wheres the problem in that? No ones saying you must pay.

[Nibor]

But nothing will change and it will still be available to all at no cost. The premier section will offer a few extra benefits (as per TomF's post) for those willing to pay. Wheres the problem in that? No ones saying you must pay.

It will change because some posters won't be able to read things, and some of the better posters might just stick to the premium area.

What benefits are you talking about? TomF doesn't mention any and all I've seen is "less moderated" which noone has elaborated on. Usually "premium benefits" means taking stuff away that everyone already has and asking people to pay for them.

What's the point in doing this when the money can be generated entirely from advertising? The traffic profile of this site is easily high enough to do it.

[BigTone]

It will change because some posters won't be able to read things, and some of the better posters might just stick to the premium area.

What benefits are you talking about? TomF doesn't mention any and all I've seen is "less moderated" which noone has elaborated on. Usually "premium benefits" means taking stuff away that everyone already has and asking people to pay for them.

What's the point in doing this when the money can be generated entirely from advertising? The traffic profile of this site is easily high enough to do it.

Toms post suggests that benefits would be:

" get access to more upload/pm space, and a free email address too"

No where is anyone suggesting taking anything from anybody.

Also I don't think that posters will shy away from the rest of the forum, why would they?

A premier area isn't going to pay the complete running cost of the forum, I agree and have said in all my posts that limited advertising should be included.

Problem is, without revenue the Forum will cease to exist and regular users like yourself and myself won't be able to post at all.

Where does that leave us?

[Nibor]

Toms post suggests that benefits would be:

" get access to more upload/pm space, and a free email address too"

No where is anyone suggesting taking anything from anybody.

Fair enough I missed that. Can't see it being a draw really, just an extra for people who've probably already donated.

Also I don't think that posters will shy away from the rest of the forum, why would they?

I think some people will stick to the premium area rather than mix with the hoi polloi because of some of the dross we get posted at the moment. I'd like to see the moderating focussed on fixing the dross posts and having a premium members forum would decrease the pressure to do this. Basically the idea is exclusive and I think otib should be inclusive where at all possible.

A premier area isn't going to pay the complete running cost of the forum, I agree and have said in all my posts that limited advertising should be included.

Problem is, without revenue the Forum will cease to exist and regular users like yourself and myself won't be able to post at all.

Where does that leave us?

Advertising can cover it all in it's entirety easily. I think we should only do this premium member thing if it can't.

[BigTone]

Well, I suppose at the end of the day its people just throwing ideas around to find a way to keep this forum going. You can see my take on it from my posts. I think pay per post won't work, I think it needs to be affordable for all, I already advertise on it and know that it works for me, I see no problem in a premier area.

Now its Friday and I'm off for a pint. You're more than welcome to join me and we can debate it further if you can make the airport in time.

[Nibor]

Well, I suppose at the end of the day its people just throwing ideas around to find a way to keep this forum going. You can see my take on it from my posts. I think pay per post won't work, I think it needs to be affordable for all, I already advertise on it and know that it works for me, I see no problem in a premier area.

Now its Friday and I'm off for a pint. You're more than welcome to join me and we can debate it further if you can make the airport in time.

Aye it's just ideas - I just see advertising as the lesser of many evils.

I'd take you up on the offer of a pint but frankly after last night half a babycham would probably be the end of me.

[cheshire_red]

I'm with Nibor, charging for premium facilities will be the death of this forum in my humble opinion. For Christ's sake we already have a 'Premium Club' for those who can afford it. You want a 'Premium Forum' now too?