Another Thread

[cheshire_red]

So that readers understand where I'm coming from, I thought the idea of a Supporters Trust was a good one.

I would also welcome fans of this club owning a significant percentage of the shares and having a REAL say in the club.

So why haven't I joined?

Simple, the ST in my mind has scored a large number of own goals and alienated many.

And Kings is right, Colin Sextone is good at raising money, shocking at PR. PR is the be all of many an organisation, something that the ST should note.

[tompo]

[greenun]

But the comparison with politicians misses the point. There are two levels of democracy working within politics, party membership and elections. (In both cases I use the word democracy loosely ). We may not all like the results but we have a General Election system in this country which gives every one of us the right to take part in the process of selecting the representatives so are all to blame for what we end up with.

With the ST we have only membership democracy so I feel in no way to blame for the ST as it is now. And yet I regularly read their claims of being representatives of the fans.

...but will exclude them from a survey of fans. To continue the comparison with politics the problem with the ST surveying only it's members is it is comparable to a political party putting forward a manifesto, asking people to sign up as members if they agree with it and then using only that membership to establish the views of the nation.

Matt,

The reasons why only ST members were surveyed are numerous, but listed here: http://www.otib.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=...mp;#entry594278.

In short, we just don't have the capacity or resources to carry out a fan wide survey.

Of course a members only survey can't be truly representative of the whole of the fanbase, only our members, but we do represent a diverse number of supporters.

As I replied to Ian (Cheshire Red) earlier, we have to earn the respect of fans in order for them to become members, and we've clearly got an extremely hard job to convince a large number to do so. However, we'll be working extremely hard on a number of projects to establish the Trust's credibility fan wide.

Regards,

Mark

[Guest North Street]

Are these not a sign of issues with City fans' attitudes?

If Lansdown is ignoring the ST, fans should be seeing it as a sign that the ST needs to be empowered further, rather than dismissing it as a sign that we should focus on single issues with no organisation or inspiration pulling everyone in the same direction. It's a focal point for Lansdown ignoring the fans, and the best way to apply pressure.

That, to me, is the point of a Supporters' Trust, and to say that it's pointless because there aren't enough members or it's being ignored, seems to me an argument that's self-defeating to the point of parody.

I have an attitude alright.

I am a member of the trust and have tried to at least encouarge fans to join, met Tompo & tried to get involved in the ST survey.

I have already stated openly "i" would like to see the East End petition ran alongside the trusts survey results to give it more imputus.

I hope the trust can be advocates for the fans but i doubt if the Chairman will take them seriously, interesting times!

[Nibor]

[Tom Fleuriot]

And Kings is right, Colin Sextone is good at raising money, shocking at PR. PR is the be all of many an organisation, something that the ST should note.

I've never liked the idea that PR is the be-all; PR is the method of communicating achievements. It's therefore pretty damn far from the be-all (unless you're New Labour / Oak Tree Conservative).

To say it's all about PR is to say that you can't be bothered to actually find out what has happened, and you don't have any faith in the ability of City fans to do the same.

Personally I'm of the opinion that "good PR" is simply explaining what you have done again and again, and showing patience when people come out with sweeping statements. I think the Trust does this exceptionally well.

Re-introducing cheap away travel for kids would be something that will make a difference to quite a few people.

I think that's an excellent idea, and possibly achievable?

[lukejones2]

OK - There's a whole lot of points here and some interesting debate which is always welcome. I will add a few comments of my own if I may:

Firstly, I personally have gained absolutely nothing from the Trust other than a few new friends. I cannot see what any of the board stand to gain other than a better football experience as a fan because the board are more considerate/respectful of fans views than they used to be. That is why I am involved and is what I am hoping to achieve. In fact, being involved costs me and other board members time and money but I believe in the aims of the Trust and have made the decision that this ****il I win the lottery anyway) is the best way for me to achieve these aims.

It is of course fine for people to question our motives, to question our decisions, to question the way we do things - the only thing I would add is that for those who do question our motives there is very little I can do posting on a forum to a pseudonym to articulate in a way that you would lead you to change your mind. I would invite you to attend any of our open meetings, any of our events, or even find me on a matchday (or tell me where you are and I can come to you!) - all of our seat numbers are printed in the recent BCST newsletter along with our ugly mugs.

Can I remind everyone that the Trust is under a year old and so far we have achieved two fan places at board meetings of the football club (I do not believe either would have been offered had we not been pushing for it), we have signed 350 members and whilst that is not a huge number it is a body of support which we appreciate, we have purchased £5,000 of shares in the Holding Company (owning both the ground and the club) with the money being specifically used to repair the training pitch at Abbotts Leigh - this may have had a 1% difference on the team itself?, we have also organised a number of events to raise this money and the launch night which was not to raise money necessarily but to try and celebrate what it was about to be a City fan, we have facilitated discussions with the Club on various subjects through Q&A sections, we have been able to work with the club to offer supporters the chance to see how the club's security system works from the inside following stewarding issues. There are of course other things we have done but I have selected a few.

The Trust represents our members. That is straight forward although as I said above, in formulating our policies and the way we work etc we need to consider all fans. We are all fans. Our members are fans, the ST board are fans.. it is a blurry line between being representing the whole fan base and representing the interests of the fan base, the latter of which, by representing our members, we try to do.

[Tom Fleuriot]

I have an attitude alright.

I am a member of the trust and have tried to at least encouarge fans to join, met Tompo & tried to get involved in the ST survey.

I have already stated openly "i" would like to see the East End petition ran alongside the trusts survey results to give it more imputus.

I hope the trust can be advocates for the fans but i doubt if the Chairman will take them seriously, interesting times!

I'm not saying that you have an attitude as such, more that the Trust is more likely to be taken seriously by the Chairman than any other organisation and attacking (rather than criticising) the Trust seems to me to create more organisations that won't be taken seriously by the chairman.

[SE23Red]

The reasons why only ST members were surveyed are numerous, but listed here: http://www.otib.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=...mp;#entry594278.

Of course a members only survey can't be truly representative of the whole of the fanbase, only our members, but we do represent a diverse number of supporters.

It was also discussed here where I last made the same point. It still hasn't been addressed. Demographics is more than just sex, age, race and social groups. You could have a perfectly representative subset of Turkeys, male, female, young and old but they would still vote against Christmas.

As I replied to Ian (Cheshire Red) earlier, we have to earn the respect of fans in order for them to become members, and we've clearly got an extremely hard job to convince a large number to do so. However, we'll be working extremely hard on a number of projects to establish the Trust's credibility fan wide.

As I've said in earlier threads it wouldn't be a hard job at all if the Trust was set up at a time when the club truly needed it. Maybe you should read something into why it is so hard to convince many to join?

[lukejones2]

I think this proves what I was saying.

There's a great deal of hard work been done, no question of that. Credit to the people who've put in so much time and effort.

But from that list, not one thing actually affects me nor, I would guess, the majority of fans.

Re-introducing cheap away travel for kids would be something that will make a difference to quite a few people.

The rest, well, they don't or won't affect anyone who isn't pro-active enough to already be involved - and those are a minority.

The problem is finding something the Trust can focus on and achieve that will affect or at least be noticed by the silent majority to serve as a catalyst. For most Trusts the catalyst is survival.

East end? Doubt the trust can get SL to move on this but if they could it might be one.

Lower ticket prices? This is more possible I think, particularly for a "one game only" trial - maybe a City20k campaign where we try and fill the ground for something like Forest at home?

Signing a player? Nope. SL will fund that if GJ wants to bring one in. If it's a player SL can't afford then nor can the Trust.

Anyone have any ideas?

Thank you very much indeed for the kind words and even more so the suggestions.. the City20k in particular is a cracking idea and, whilst not solving a potentially long term problem over pricing in itself, would provide a fantastic opportunity to enjoy a true fan experience. It is something I will bring up with the other Trust members at our open meeting on Thursday although at this point I will have to add that to get something off the ground such as this would involve a lot of work and we would really appreciate any manpower assistance with any of our projects. We would need to understand the potential arguments from any opposing points of view and counter them productively (I need to prduce a spreadsheet which will allow the copmparison of matchday offer prices over a full season with a season ticket price and it is on my to do list, just has not yet been prioritised due to other commitments).

The Trust welcome the efforts being made on the East End and are supportive. We will assist where possible and I believe that as an organisation we are well placed to facilitate discussion on this issue between the campaigning group and the club.

Cheap away travel for kids we have been working on since it was abolished. We have had a number of meetings with the club, taken legal and insurance advice, met with various people previously involved in the CJS, got quotes on various things... I guarantee you there is a lot of work which goes into all that we do even before it is announced and we certainly hope to do something about this. The Trust were able to arrange for a possible recprocal ticket deal and this is our main target. So far this is not an achievement, but once we have finalised our work on this we hope to be able to list it as one.

Any other ideas more than welcome.

[SE23Red]

Lower ticket prices? This is more possible I think, particularly for a "one game only" trial - maybe a City20k campaign where we try and fill the ground for something like Forest at home?

But should things stay on track that game will sell out anyway. Games such as Carlisle, Millwall and Tranmere would be better candidates to use to judge if a reduction in ticket prices would make any real difference to attendance.

[greenun]

It was also discussed here where I last made the same point. It still hasn't been addressed. Demographics is more than just sex, age, race and social groups. You could have a perfectly representative subset of Turkeys, male, female, young and old but they would still vote against Christmas.

As I've said in earlier threads it wouldn't be a hard job at all if the Trust was set up at a time when the club truly needed it. Maybe you should read something into why it is so hard to convince many to join?

Matt,

This is my reply to you in full and I've highlighted why we couldn't survey all fans.

The reasons why only ST members were surveyed are numerous, but listed here: http://www.otib.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=...mp;#entry594278.

In short, we just don't have the capacity or resources to carry out a fan wide survey.

Of course a members only survey can't be truly representative of the whole of the fanbase, only our members, but we do represent a diverse number of supporters.

Do we have to wait for a 1982 all over again before establishing a Trust? That's one way that your argument could be read and I don't see why City fans need only to unite in times of crisis.

Nonetheless, you're right, we do have to take on board reasons why fans haven't joined the Trust and engage them

[SE23Red]

This is my reply to you in full and I've highlighted why we couldn't survey all fans.

It highlights why you did it. It doesn't highlight your understanding of the fundamental problem with doing it the way you have.

Do we have to wait for a 1982 all over again before establishing a Trust? That's one way that your argument could be read and I don't see why City fans need only to unite in times of crisis.

I start from the point of view that I have supported City for many years quite happily without a Trust, so do not think that we are missing out on anything by not having one. City fans don't only unite in crisis, we unite every fortnight at Ashton Gate, and many thousands of us are going to unite in Nottingham on Saturday.

As I said much earlier on in this thread where I hold Supporters Trusts in very high esteem is where they have formed to save a football club. It is easy then for the Trust to represent all fans because a single issue dominates the agenda. The problem you have at the moment is that the City agenda is quite diverse, and no single issue unites the fans. That and we're playing some fine football at the moment which is the single biggest factor in most peoples enjoyment of a day at the football.

Nonetheless, you're right, we do have to take on board reasons why fans haven't joined the Trust and engage them

No you don't! You may want to, and no one is going to stop you but you don't have to.

[Barrs Court Red]

I start from the point of view that I have supported City for many years quite happily without a Trust, so do not think that we are missing out on anything by not having one. City fans don't only unite in crisis, we unite every fortnight at Ashton Gate, and many thousands of us are going to unite in Nottingham on Saturday.

Do they REALLY? I don't think so. There is little sense of community with City fans. Football fans going to football is hardly an example to give.

No you don't! You may want to, and no one is going to stop you but you don't have to. Again, silly comment. Every organisation should look how it could improve and expand. You suggest the Trust stagnates?

[Long Ashton Red]

You'll have to read my other contributions to this thread for the answer to that.

I have and can't find anything other than "self promotion", is that what you mean when you comment on motives? Rather a lot of work and time and effort (with more criticism than praise) for a bit of self promotion?

[bh_red]

[SE23Red]

I have and can't find anything other than "self promotion", is that what you mean when you comment on motives? Rather a lot of work and time and effort (with more criticism than praise) for a bit of self promotion?

No, I've said repeatedly that I can understand the motive of a Trust set up to save a football club, but fail to understand the agenda of BCST. Self promotion was also used as a collective rather than individual term. Sorry to have confused you!

[tompo]

personally I'm not sure how ST has actually improve anything that effects the man of the street apart from maybe raising the ego's of a few of it leaders.

anyhow, no doubt better prepare myself for either another telling off from one of the ST Mods and my inpending court summons for airing MY VIEW plus no doubt they will change my avator again because they don't like it!

Organised two Q&A sessions that enabled fans

(not necessarily ST members) to put questions to the Chairman. Most recent being last Saturday.

these events did actually happen in the dolman hall prior to the ST starting up? however if ST want to claim credit then so be it, however I believe Last Saturday's event wasn't an open forum? select questions from a selected few?

No the ST organised a Q&A session back in February. The majority of attendees last Saturday were not ST members. Numbers were limited due to the short notice and size of the venue.

In the process of trying to organise similar events where exiled fans who cannot or do not attend AG on a regular basis can also question the Chairman.

wasn't this the old Steve L forum?

No. Fans will be able to put their questions to the chairman in person and engage in discussion on any topic..

Took over the running of OTIB and possibly saved it from going under (?).

otib survied before the club took it under their wing and would have survied in the same shape or form without the ST

Possibly.

Organised a very successful dinner last week.

similar to event regulary held at the gate?

No this was organised specifically with football fans in mind and at a price considerably cheaper than similar events organised by the club.

Have taken the lead in the Save the Wedlocks campaign.

thought the subbers were doing all that?

No

[Nibor]

Have taken the lead in the Save the Wedlocks campaign.

thought the subbers were doing all that?

No

I think the confusion here is East End (Wedlocks) vs Pub. BH_red probably thought you meant the East End.

[bh_red]

I think the confusion here is East End (Wedlocks) vs Pub. BH_red probably thought you meant the East End.

Sorry yep, meant East End.

As for the Wedlocks, , much as many of us would love to see it saved, I just can't see it being able to operate as a pub again, when it was there, it just didn't get the customers to keep it running, apart from match days it never really seemed to do much business, their is alot of sentiment to the place,

either way, if it does all fail and it gets turned into flats, i want to be front of the queue to get one! great location, if it does get converted they can hopefully keep the wedlock name to the building as a lasting tribute.

i.e - Wedlock Court or Wedlock House.

[Barrs Court Red]

I belive it can work as a pub, but the outlay to update the pub makes it unfeasable for most.

[bh_red]

I belive it can work as a pub, but the outlay to update the pub makes it unfeasable for most.

think that is the biggest problem, the combination of the (crazy) rent that the landlords are charging for running the place in addition to the amount of cash will take to get the place into a decent condition that will encourage people to drink their means someone with a serious amount of cash will need to be involved.

considering the location of the pub, amount of houses nearby and the amount of competition it is quite difficult, plus of course being the pub closest to the ground it's the one the away fans see first and try to demolish!

[cider head]

I think the confusion here is East End (Wedlocks) vs Pub. BH_red probably thought you meant the East End.

this is true, we'll support anyone who will help save the wedlock pub but we have not

started anything as a sub group but when someone does let us know.

let me just say about the eastend that it is not just about subbers it's about ALL the

fans who are interested, we are just lending a hand.

I belive it can work as a pub, but the outlay to update the pub makes it unfeasable for most.

that depends on if you know people in trades to help out do the work on the pub

at a reduced price

[redrocks]

To say any bandwagon has been jumped on is just plain wrong. Just because conversations aren't posted on here doesn't mean nothing goes on.

I've been chatting with Milo about the East End for about a year regarding the East End. Is that jumping on the bandwagon still?

In terms of representation, do you belive it is wrong for the largest shareholding body of fans to claim to act as a voice for all fans? From my view the fact that they take forward fans thoughts and concerns forward to the club shows that it is a representative body.

Can you point me to something where the Supporters Trust have claimed to be acting in the interest of all fans, in a specific proposal?

As you appear to be such a staunch supporter of the ST, may I ask why you have not joined?

[screech]

I think most people are looking to the trust to just have a couple of goals, not a million agendas.

Something simple would have the mission statement reading "We the supporters trust have been set up to raise funds to buy "the ground" "the wedlocks" "fund opening the east end" or whatever, that would be a trust with a purpose, to be honest originally I was interested in the idea of a trust, but I think your trying to fight every corner and your losing every battle.

Please pick a simple crusade, stick with it and if the fans like it, they will back it in good numbers.

[Barrs Court Red]

As you appear to be such a staunch supporter of the ST, may I ask why you have not joined?

That is a reasonable question.

Funnily enough, I do have the form on my desk, awaiting account details. The intent is there.

Why has it taken a year? Well I suppose It's only since this East End issue has started again that I have realised that we have in our midst a fans organisation that can make a difference, can be inclusive and can work.

Will people allow it to do this? I do not know, and I doubt anyone can truly see where this will end up.

It can only improve, and in my opinion has done this during its first year. It is certainly far more professional and discreet in its approach.

What swung it for me was what members I met on Saturday had to say (although have previously spoken by pm in the past). This isn't a group of mugs, attention seekers or loons. I see a group of fans trying to provide an organisation which can benefit everyone.

Some clearly don't see it my way, that is up to them, but this is why I'm "such a staunch supporter " (by the way I think you're way off the mark with that assertion)

[redrocks]

Thanks for that. It wasn't an assertion, merely an observation based on the evidence of your posts on this topic. If people like you are motivated enough to post several long replies on this subject, yet at the same time can't be arsed to fill the form out, then I am sure the ST is doomed!

I think apathy is the big problem here and without the common cause to rally the fan base, we could be looking at nothing more exciting than SC-style Tupperware parties for the chosen few in the near future.

Getting the East End reopened would be a great cause to hang the ST's hat on. Looks like a lot of people would be won over there.

[cider head]

Getting the East End reopened would be a great cause to hang the ST's hat on. Looks like a lot of people would be won over there.

I would agree with that, yes there are other issues but if you are to win over a certain section of fans then

thats a good start, although the trust have been giving out advice on the EE issue.

[Barrs Court Red]

If people like you are motivated enough to post several long replies on this subject, yet at the same time can't be arsed to fill the form out, then I am sure the ST is doomed!

I agree

[Guest Orj]

Since this thread was seemingly created in my honour, I thought I'd post a quick update.

I have been advised by the forum moderators that a certain individual may have chosen not to pursue a libel action against me for now. As a result, my Moderator Preview status has been lifted.

Curiously, despite asking, I haven't been told what it was that I posted that was considered potentially libellous. I have sympathy for the position of the moderators but to tell me that my posts were removed due to libellous content but to then decline to tell me what that libellous content was makes me wonder whether a degree of 'news management' is taking place.

On the specific topic of this thread, I'm too tired for now to spend any decent time constructing my argument about what I consider to be the demerits of Supporters' Trusts so I'll save that for another day.