Terracing

[Collis]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/6444083.stm

The vast majority of English football supporters want a return to standing in grounds, according to a survey obtained by BBC Sport.

The poll, which is due to published later in March, found 92% want clubs to bring back safe standing areas.

Stadia in the top two divisions have had to be all-seater since the Taylor Report into the Hillsborough disaster.

Former Sports Minister Kate Hoey said: "A rational reappraisal of this issue is long overdue. It's time to talk."

Pressure for another look at the issue of terracing has been growing, prompting campaigners to demand a fresh debate

I hope our club is following this closely. It seems far fetched that stadiums are suddenly going to go back to terracing but at least there is hope.

Would be nice to see the seats in the East End ripped out.

I thought football was sadly drifting into a downwards spiral, but this gives me some hope.

[Barrs Court Red]

Calls for it are growing, especially as all seated stadia grow into the lower leagues.

Liverpool fans are a perfect example of a group of supporters who have realised the atmosphere at all grounds is dying. Other examples could be groups at Swindle, Acrington and Aberdeen.

[WTFiGO!?!]

I think there is a small sense of revolt at last arriving. The People getting sick of being told what they want and what's good for them.

Don't worry mate, The Machine can only tame The Beast for so long...

Hopefully as Sir Bob once sang: ''the time's-they-are-a-changing''.

[bringbacktherobin]

I really want terracing to come back, I'm 17 and don't like sitting down at football. But i cant see it ever returning to football due to powers that be.

Also i don't understand how they can say standing in the east end isnt safe. Its a terrace not a purpose made all seater stand so surely its safe to stand also it should be my decision if i want to "risk my life" standing at football matches not the FA or Bristol City Football Club!!

Its a terrace with seats bolted onto it!!

Visit www.standupsitdown.co.uk/

[tompo]

[Guest TheBerkeleyBoy]

I don't think or personally want terraces back - I think one of the reasons for lack of singing is reserved seating. You can't sit with you mates half the time and "singers" are dotted around. I'm sure some of us had tried to start a chant only to have people around you look around you as if your mad!

We should have a large section of unreserved seating so if you want to sing you can all sit together. I suspect the police won't like it.. what ever next people enjoying themselves!!

[Stoke_Gifford_Red]

I don't think or personally want terraces back - I think one of the reasons for lack of singing is reserved seating. You can't sit with you mates half the time and "singers" are dotted around. I'm sure some of us had tried to start a chant only to have people around you look around you as if your mad!

We should have a large section of unreserved seating so if you want to sing you can all sit together. I suspect the police won't like it.. what ever next people enjoying themselves!!

Hopefully the police won't have a say in it. At many grounds there are such areas, and at several clubs (I believe Leicester is one) the club officials have gone off the record to say that standing in seated areas is OK because they relise it greatly improves the atmosphere. I also think it won't be very long before there are new terrace sections built in at least the lower two leagues, not least because in these leagues the clubs need all the fans (and therefore money) they can get and also in these clubs fans are often getting more of a stake (due to Supporter's Trust etc).

[Show Me The Money!]

There's this article as well

BBC Football Standing Comment Article

[Somertonian]

Unfortunately, when...

* fans turn up without tickets or

* fans turn up with forged tickets

* turnstile operators let their mates in or

* turnstile operators take cash

* etc

... this leads to disasters such as Hillsborough.

Muppets at the back of the terrace surge forward and cause the people at the front of the terrace to be crushed (often kids and elderly supporters who cannot resist the pressure).

It's fans who closed the terraces - not the 'powers that be'.

Terracing can be safe but the control measures that would be required would probably have people crying out for their human rights.

S

[Guest North Street]

Unfortunately, when...

* fans turn up without tickets or

* fans turn up with forged tickets

* turnstile operators let their mates in or

* turnstile operators take cash

* etc

... this leads to disasters such as Hillsborough.

Muppets at the back of the terrace surge forward and cause the people at the front of the terrace to be crushed (often kids and elderly supporters who cannot resist the pressure).

It's fans who closed the terraces - not the 'powers that be'.

Terracing can be safe but the control measures that would be required would probably have people crying out for their human rights.

S

Congratulations that is quite possibly the most ignorant post i have ever read on here.

[Guest bad_shrek]

Unfortunately, when...

* fans turn up without tickets or

* fans turn up with forged tickets

* turnstile operators let their mates in or

* turnstile operators take cash

* etc

... this leads to disasters such as Hillsborough.

Muppets at the back of the terrace surge forward and cause the people at the front of the terrace to be crushed (often kids and elderly supporters who cannot resist the pressure).

It's fans who closed the terraces - not the 'powers that be'.

Terracing can be safe but the control measures that would be required would probably have people crying out for their human rights.

S

disgusting post

[Guest DanC]

Unfortunately, when...

* fans turn up without tickets or

Then it's up to the club to turn them away

* fans turn up with forged tickets

Again the club needs to sort it out

* turnstile operators let their mates in or

The shouldn't do

* turnstile operators take cash

* etc

And what's to say all that you mentioned can't happen at all seater stadiums?

[Somertonian]

And what's to say all that you mentioned can't happen at all seater stadiums?

I'm sure it does happen but it cannot happen on such a large scale without it being blindingly obvious that something is wrong. Two or more people with tickets for the same numbered seat could be investigated and the people behind the racket caught.

S

[kevinmabbuttshair]

Unfortunately, when...

* fans turn up without tickets or

* fans turn up with forged tickets

* turnstile operators let their mates in or

* turnstile operators take cash

* etc

... this leads to disasters such as Hillsborough.

Muppets at the back of the terrace surge forward and cause the people at the front of the terrace to be crushed (often kids and elderly supporters who cannot resist the pressure).

It's fans who closed the terraces - not the 'powers that be'.

Terracing can be safe but the control measures that would be required would probably have people crying out for their human rights.

I, for one, miss the surge forward when the city were attacking the end you were stood at (some of us used to stand in the open end when it wasn't raining or when we were playing the gas) then jumping round like a loon when the ball went into the back of the net and having to look for your mates afterward, class

[chalky]

I really hope that safe standing areas are introuduced. SUSD are one of the main organisations calling for this and it is not terracing that we want to bring back in. It is standing areas such as those that have been safely introduced in countries like Germany. When this topic has come up recently you tend to get those who are completely for it and those who remember the "bad old days" and are completely against it. Unfortunately a lot of people don't realise the difference betwen safe standing areas and terracing.

[nester]

I just got back from Man City v Chelsea and was surprised to see large sections of the Man City support standing during a lot of the game. All the Chelsea support in the lower tier was standing all the game. There was no attempt to get anyone to sit down despite a very large police and steward presence. The Man City support was awesome throughout the game despite it being obvious they would not score, really fantastic atmosphere all round the ground and total backing for the team, despite them being really poor. Their singers are dispersed around three areas of the ground so that's no excuse for us. All the fans were behind the team.

[Flaxbourton Red]

Unfortunately, when...

* fans turn up without tickets or

* fans turn up with forged tickets

* turnstile operators let their mates in or

* turnstile operators take cash

* etc

... this leads to disasters such as Hillsborough.

Muppets at the back of the terrace surge forward and cause the people at the front of the terrace to be crushed (often kids and elderly supporters who cannot resist the pressure).

It's fans who closed the terraces - not the 'powers that be'.

Terracing can be safe but the control measures that would be required would probably have people crying out for their human rights.

you clown

you could work for the sun; only you forgot to add the bit about drunken liverpool fans urinating on the dead then going through their pockets

are you telling me the westland terrace at yeovil is a disaster waiting to happen?

all those points you listed occurred at Lille v Manchester united, in an all seater stadium

your ideas about hillsborough are highly offensive and ignorant

[WTFiGO!?!]

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/TheRightToStand/

Well this is a petition started only very lately sent straight to our friends up in Westminster.

If you care get your name on it, they then send you an E-mail for confirmation, if you're apathetic then your name would also be greatly appreciated, if anti the return of terracing then obviously don't and please spare me your opinions too if you'd be so kind.

[WTFiGO!?!]

That petition is just for terracing at Premiership grounds. :noexpression:

Here's the Political way forward with regard to reintroducing terracing at Ashton Gate..........

End the tyranny of our 'politically correct' oppressors that did deny us our birthright to stand on Ye Olde East End terrace and our right to chant obscenities without fear of Royalist Gestapo Police reprisals. Vote into Parliament a real nightmare for the football supporter hating politicians........vote for the man of action.........VOTE FOR GUY FAWKES !!!!!!..........

Gobby old chap, I know what with being nuts an all this little piece of information probably passed you by, but was Mr. Fawkes not um, you know, like killed by your Royalist chums for his attempted misdemeanor, also was this not over 400 years ago? - making voting for him politically a bit of a non-starter ??

aye, it is only for Premiership grounds but you can be rest assured that if they address the error of their ways Club's like our's would soon follow suit..

Sign it Gobby.

[Somertonian]

you clown

you could work for the sun; only you forgot to add the bit about drunken liverpool fans urinating on the dead then going through their pockets

are you telling me the westland terrace at yeovil is a disaster waiting to happen?

all those points you listed occurred at Lille v Manchester united, in an all seater stadium

your ideas about hillsborough are highly offensive and ignorant

My original post on this subject was meant to express the reasons why standing was banned. The 'powers-that-be' did what they thought was right at the time and in the best interests of football fans. Perhaps, on reflection, another decision could have been made and I agree that safe standing areas could easily be adopted in most grounds. These would need to be introducesd with some form of secure ticketing to ensure safety levels are not breeched. At no point did I apportion blame for the Hillsborough disaster in my original post. There were many things that contributed to Hillsborough and I have not reviewed all the evidence (or even any of it). I certainly did not say anything so disgusting and offensive about Liverpool fans. Flaxbourton Red's comment (aimed at the Sun?) was unnecessary and added nothing to the discussion.

My point was that fans turning up to all-ticket games without tickets is a problem. If it's a few fans, it's hardly a problem at all. If it's thousands it is clearly a safety issue.

The Westland Stand is well stewarded and is small when compared to the large Premiership grounds. In the event of a problem, fans could spill over onto the pitch. I consider the terracing to be almost as safe as the seated areas. I prefer to stand and did so during the City vs Boro game at Ashton Gate.

S

[Flaxbourton Red]

My original post on this subject was meant to express the reasons why standing was banned. The 'powers-that-be' did what they thought was right at the time and in the best interests of football fans. Perhaps, on reflection, another decision could have been made and I agree that safe standing areas could easily be adopted in most grounds. These would need to be introducesd with some form of secure ticketing to ensure safety levels are not breeched. At no point did I apportion blame for the Hillsborough disaster in my original post. There were many things that contributed to Hillsborough and I have not reviewed all the evidence (or even any of it). I certainly did not say anything so disgusting and offensive about Liverpool fans. Flaxbourton Red's comment (aimed at the Sun?) was unnecessary and added nothing to the discussion.

My point was that fans turning up to all-ticket games without tickets is a problem. If it's a few fans, it's hardly a problem at all. If it's thousands it is clearly a safety issue.

The Westland Stand is well stewarded and is small when compared to the large Premiership grounds. In the event of a problem, fans could spill over onto the pitch. I consider the terracing to be almost as safe as the seated areas. I prefer to stand and did so during the City vs Boro game at Ashton Gate.

why don't you go and find out what your talking about before subjecting OTIB to your half-baked ideas?

[Collis]

Another interesting article appeared on the BBC website today. Fair play to the BBC for giving lots of exposure on this.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/6458843.stm

The VELTINS-Arena is the home of German Club Schalke 04. It is a standing stadium, the seats are locked up and only used in certain circumstances. This quote from a safety official at the ground sums it up really;

In the nearly six years of the VELTINS-Arena, there has not been a single incident or injury that was caused by having standing terraces

[Guest Ron]

Read that second article this morning, while I don't really give a damn about standing those who do should at least get a decent reason why not out of the authorities, or they should be allowed to stand. The authorities currently do not have that reason, so why the hell is nothing being done.

[Somertonian]

Does anybody think the terracing debate will suffer following the events involving Man ure and Spurs?

S

[bringbacktherobin]

How has what happened at the games involving Man U And Spurs has to do with standing?

Watching the spurs game, the spurs fans were in a seated stand. So that doesnt effect the terracing debate.

Also Man U fans were in a seated stand. So that Doesnt effect the terracing debate.

A few weeks ago a game Between Darlington and Harltepool had trouble, inside the ground, inside a new 25000 all seater ground.

It doesnt matter if its terracing or seats, violence at football will always exist.

[Flaxbourton Red]

Does anybody think the terracing debate will suffer following the events involving Man ure and Spurs?

trouble inside the all seated grounds?

what do you mean by "trouble" anyway?

mad italian police attacking english fans? one or two fans running on the pitch at spurs?

what planet are you from?

[Barrs Court Red]

Does anybody think the terracing debate will suffer following the events involving Man ure and Spurs?

S

Clearly, because if people are throwing plastic chairs around in all seated stadia, what weapons would that have to use if they were on terraces

[WTFiGO!?!]

THE WHOLE THING IS LAUGHABLE

[Barry]

THE WHOLE THING IS LAUGHABLE

yes it is!

i think the powers that be will also not want to go back on their decisions as they may feel it might cause to much controversy or make them look weak.

this would make it even more pathetic

[WTFiGO!?!]

yes it is!

i think the powers that be will also not want to go back on their decisions as they may feel it might cause to much controversy or make them look weak.

this would make it even more pathetic

Steve did accuse us of only being so pro-East-End because we had the bit between our teeth and were rebellious antagonistic types, fighting on principle.

''Pot-kettle-black'' I thought.

Yes, I'm only so pro people having freedom of reasonable choice at the Football because I have pent up anger and a need for revolt.

I'm now also off on some extreme RSPCA march - damn them bloody Scientists !!

Scootered's off on some Gay Pride march down Brighton from what I gather, fair play to him too.

[Guest Red Head]

You know where you can stick your terracing. Crowds are up since the awful days of terracing. More and more families are watchin football - why?

Because they can sit in comfort and get a good view of a footy match without being pushed, jostled, feet stamped on. I take my five and eight year old boys to football, what kind of shitty view would they get terracing? And if someone pushed from behind into them, crushing them when a goal is scored, what then? A right hook from me and then there would be trouble.

The only reasons I can take my boys to watch football is that they are safer and can watch footy in relevant comfort, not left at the front of a terrace where I can't give them my 100% attention.

Screw the terrace!

[Guest North Street]

You know where you can stick your terracing. Crowds are up since the awful days of terracing. More and more families are watchin football - why?

Because they can sit in comfort and get a good view of a footy match without being pushed, jostled, feet stamped on. I take my five and eight year old boys to football, what kind of shitty view would they get terracing? And if someone pushed from behind into them, crushing them when a goal is scored, what then? A right hook from me and then there would be trouble.

The only reasons I can take my boys to watch football is that they are safer and can watch footy in relevant comfort, not left at the front of a terrace where I can't give them my 100% attention.

Screw the terrace!

Not that it is ever going to happen here but some grounds even had terracing for families.

Crowds increased on the back of a successful national team in 1990 for the first time for decades since 66 and look what happened there.

[Guest ashtonyate]

You know where you can stick your terracing. Crowds are up since the awful days of terracing. More and more families are watchin football - why?

Because they can sit in comfort and get a good view of a footy match without being pushed, jostled, feet stamped on. I take my five and eight year old boys to football, what kind of shitty view would they get terracing? And if someone pushed from behind into them, crushing them when a goal is scored, what then? A right hook from me and then there would be trouble.

The only reasons I can take my boys to watch football is that they are safer and can watch footy in relevant comfort, not left at the front of a terrace where I can't give them my 100% attention.

Screw the terrace!

A lot of what you said is true I stood in the EE for years now I am older I would not like to stand for Two plus hours but I think there is a case for pay on the day part of the ground. I think that the Club are missing out on the person who suddenly decided to want to watch a game but its to late to book or to much hassle to do so. As from a policing point of view its easier to keep fans in check when they are sat down

[Flaxbourton Red]

You know where you can stick your terracing. Crowds are up since the awful days of terracing. More and more families are watchin football - why?

Because they can sit in comfort and get a good view of a footy match without being pushed, jostled, feet stamped on. I take my five and eight year old boys to football, what kind of shitty view would they get terracing? And if someone pushed from behind into them, crushing them when a goal is scored, what then? A right hook from me and then there would be trouble.

The only reasons I can take my boys to watch football is that they are safer and can watch footy in relevant comfort, not left at the front of a terrace where I can't give them my 100% attention.

Screw the terrace!

yes thats right in the days before the gentrification of football, we did not have stands for people to sit in if they wanted, everything changed in 1994, when the dolaman, ateyo and williams stands were built. Before that city fans were routinely squashed and women and children frightened for their lives. It was hell.

[22A]

Flaxbourton Red refers to the gentryfication of the game.

Following Hillsborough, Lord Chief Justice Taylor was appointed (by whom?) and his terms of reference (decided by whom?) were to investigate the disaster and then find ways of making football (but not cricket or rugby) grounds safer AND to bring about the <gentryfication of the game>. In other ways to deter the likes of you and me and replace us with families sat there and applauding politely at the end of the game.

Think there was that dreadful fire at Bradford City but wooden stands remain at some rugby and cricket grounds. My son is at Uni in Huddersfield where football and rugby league use the same stadium. Watch football and the stewards make you sit down and you are not permitted to drink alcohol within sight of the pitch. Watch the rugby two days later and the same stewards in the same block of the same stand permit you to stand up with a beer in your hand.

Rushden's ground was built after Hillsborough yet has terracing at the home end. Alright they're non league now, but only three years ago were in this div with City, so obviously standing IS permitted at our level! As I've posted before, City claim the Council will revoke the safety certificate if fans are permitted to stand at AGwhich means the game cannot be played. Either OUR club is lying to US, or else Bristol Council is taking a stance no other council appears to be taking. Imagine Liverpool council threatening to shut Anfield. I know I'm repeating earlier posts of mine, but come the local elections (since major issues such as defence, education, health etc are decided nationally) when a candidate knocks on your door asking for your vote; ask his/her opinion at standing in football grounds.

[Blagdon red]

I'd suggest that all those in favour of standing safely at football matches should stop talking about 'terraces' or a 'return to standing'. No politicians like to be seen to be going backwards, and 'terracing' is simply a far too emotive word for many.

What we should be seeking is ways to make standing at your seat safe. It is clear that many fans prefer to stand, yet current stands are not designed to enable safe standing at your seat. Legislation dictates only that all stadia in the top two divisions have to provide all-seater accommodation. The law does not stipulate that fans have to be seated at all times. This directive comes from the Secretary of State via the Football Licensing Authority. In other words, it does not require a change in the law to permit standing at football grounds, it just requires a change of heart by the Secretary of State.

If the campaign became one not of "give us back our terraces, you bullies!", but "as thousands of fans stand in seated areas at dozens of grounds every week, let's work together to make this safe", then it might have a chance of success. Club stewards, for one, would then have a much easier life!

The pictures below show areas at 3 German stadia where fans are able to stand safely in front of seats. Each row has a handrail, so the possibility of a crowd surging (or people falling over seats as seen last night in the Spurs game) is totally ruled out. Standing at such seats is clearly safer than (a) standing on old terraces and, more importantly, than (b) standing at seats in current-style stands.

It is important that the people who are currently against the concept of safe standing at football are shown pictures like these so that they understand what is being proposed. It is not a return to swelling masses on the Kop, Stretford End, Leppings Lane or even the East End. It is relatively small areas (perhaps no more than 10% of the stadium capacity) being converted to this style of accommodation. This would enable those fans that want to stand to do so in safety and those that want to sit to do so anywhere else in the remaining 90% of the stadium, safe in the knowledge that fans will not be standing up in front of them or their children.

If you are in favour of this style of safe standing, I suggest you let as many people as possible see pictures like these ... if they see what is being proposed by campaigns like Stand Up, Sit Down, I'm sure many - if not all - of their reservations will be overcome.

[WTFiGO!?!]

I'd suggest that all those in favour of standing safely at football matches should stop talking about 'terraces' or a 'return to standing'. No politicians like to be seen to be going backwards, and 'terracing' is simply a far too emotive word for many.

What we should be seeking is ways to make standing at your seat safe. It is clear that many fans prefer to stand, yet current stands are not designed to enable safe standing at your seat. Legislation dictates only that all stadia in the top two divisions have to provide all-seater accommodation. The law does not stipulate that fans have to be seated at all times. This directive comes from the Secretary of State via the Football Licensing Authority. In other words, it does not require a change in the law to permit standing at football grounds, it just requires a change of heart by the Secretary of State.

If the campaign became one not of "give us back our terraces, you bullies!", but "as thousands of fans stand in seated areas at dozens of grounds every week, let's work together to make this safe", then it might have a chance of success. Club stewards, for one, would then have a much easier life!

The pictures below show areas at 3 German stadia where fans are able to stand safely in front of seats. Each row has a handrail, so the possibility of a crowd surging (or people falling over seats as seen last night in the Spurs game) is totally ruled out. Standing at such seats is clearly safer than (a) standing on old terraces and, more importantly, than (b) standing at seats in current-style stands.

It is important that the people who are currently against the concept of safe standing at football are shown pictures like these so that they understand what is being proposed. It is not a return to swelling masses on the Kop, Stretford End, Leppings Lane or even the East End. It is relatively small areas (perhaps no more than 10% of the stadium capacity) being converted to this style of accommodation. This would enable those fans that want to stand to do so in safety and those that want to sit to do so anywhere else in the remaining 90% of the stadium, safe in the knowledge that fans will not be standing up in front of them or their children.

If you are in favour of this style of safe standing, I suggest you let as many people as possible see pictures like these ... if they see what is being proposed by campaigns like Stand Up, Sit Down, I'm sure many - if not all - of their reservations will be overcome.

You raise some very valid points.

As with any heated issue and it's campaigning inevitably an ''us verses them'' dynamic is inadvertantly created. Personal pride can sometimes become more important than the issue itself.

All I as a pro-standing extremist want is the choice to stand at Football. It is in itself an innocent enough request, there must be a way.

[Collis]

Crowds are up since the awful days of terracing.

Wrong.

From the perspective of BCFC if you look at a sample of attendances during the 1965/66 season you will see that crowds have actually declined since the days of terracing.

Manchester City 1 - 1 L-2 H 25723 (Thanks to City stats!)

Naturally, terracing allowed us to cram more fans in but we were still averaging an estimate of over 15,000 in division 2!

Even as a reasonably young football supporter it amazes me why people would want to sit down at a football game unless your an OAP or disabled. Even when I was much younger I always preferred away games where I could stand.

[Guest Red Head]

Wrong.

From the perspective of BCFC if you look at a sample of attendances during the 1965/66 season you will see that crowds have actually declined since the days of terracing.

Manchester City 1 - 1 L-2 H 25723 (Thanks to City stats!)

Naturally, terracing allowed us to cram more fans in but we were still averaging an estimate of over 15,000 in division 2!

Even as a reasonably young football supporter it amazes me why people would want to sit down at a football game unless your an OAP or disabled. Even when I was much younger I always preferred away games where I could stand.

When you were younger.

What about if your 65+ with a dodgy leg, still like to stand for 2 hours then?

1965/66 season? How much football violence was around then? I'm talking of the decline of the 70's 80's when violence was rife on the terraces.

Seating has been the main stay of getting the fans back to the grounds since then, along with Jerry Keys and Andy Gray!

Although I can't see a reason why you shouldn't have your own shed with a roof over it, go back to smoking as well?

[WTFiGO!?!]

Wrong.

From the perspective of BCFC if you look at a sample of attendances during the 1965/66 season you will see that crowds have actually declined since the days of terracing.

Manchester City 1 - 1 L-2 H 25723 (Thanks to City stats!)

Naturally, terracing allowed us to cram more fans in but we were still averaging an estimate of over 15,000 in division 2!

Even as a reasonably young football supporter it amazes me why people would want to sit down at a football game unless your an OAP or disabled. Even when I was much younger I always preferred away games where I could stand.

Collis, RedTop is amazed how people would prefer to stand in the East End with it's poorer facility and inferior view.

That matters not either.

What amazes me most of all is that in the current day with it's self proclaimed pride in 'modern thinking' choice is not afforded and all are not catered for in their reasonable demands.

'Modern thinking' is code phrase for 'PC tyranny and social control' it seems to me.

If people wanna sit let them sit and if people wanna stand let them stand....... and I'm the one who takes abuse for having a liberal disposition !!

[Collis]

When you were younger.

What about if your 65+ with a dodgy leg, still like to stand for 2 hours then?

If you read my post you will note that I made exception to OAP's. If terracing did come back there would be sections in the ground to accommodate these kind of people. (including families in your case)

1965/66 season? How much football violence was around then? I'm talking of the decline of the 70's 80's when violence was rife on the terraces.

Times have changed, read some of my earlier posts and you will find evidence that backs this up. There is certain league stadiums that still have terracing and they have been to full capacity with minimal crowd problems. Have you heard of any?

Seating has been the main stay of getting the fans back to the grounds since then, along with Jerry Keys and Andy Gray!

Although I can't see a reason why you shouldn't have your own shed with a roof over it, go back to smoking as well?

Then why are you trying to hijack this thread which has been mainly used to post constructive views on this issue?

[Collis]

Collis, RedTop is amazed how people would prefer to stand in the East End with it's poorer facility and inferior view.

That matters not either.

What amazes me most of all is that in the current day with it's self proclaimed pride in 'modern thinking' choice is not afforded and all are not catered for in their reasonable demands.

'Modern thinking' is code phrase for 'PC tyranny and social control' it seems to me.

If people wanna sit let them sit and if people wanna stand let them stand....... and I'm the one who takes abuse for having a liberal disposition !!

I can't help but think that BCFC is purposely driving away fans who want to stand and sing in order to replace their seats with families or executive tweed boys.

Look at the hassle the lads in the G Block have dealt with this season. No nonsense, kicking fans out for being passionate and trying to get behind their team.

Liverpool fans consistently stand week in week out in the Kop and stewards make little or no attempt to make them sit down probably for the fear of losing the supurb support they are famous for.

[Guest Red Head]

Then why are you trying to hijack this thread which has been mainly used to post constructive views on this issue?

[Guest North Street]

When you were younger.

What about if your 65+ with a dodgy leg, still like to stand for 2 hours then?

1965/66 season? How much football violence was around then? I'm talking of the decline of the 70's 80's when violence was rife on the terraces.

Seating has been the main stay of getting the fans back to the grounds since then, along with Jerry Keys and Andy Gray!

Although I can't see a reason why you shouldn't have your own shed with a roof over it, go back to smoking as well?

Gates were already in serious decline from the 1940's onwards.

[Guest Red Head]

Then why are you trying to hijack this thread which has been mainly used to post constructive views on this issue?

Hijack? What do you mean?

Only constructive crititcism allowed? tut tut....

Collis, to be fair, I have no objection to what you want, or any of the East end claims. I personally think you should have a section in the East End seated or unseated. But this kind of thread is now boring me, can't you take it somewhere esle?

I know, lets meet and have a drink in the Dolman bar on Saturday at half time, and chat about what a great goal Stevie Brooker has just scored.

Heck, we could talk about what a glorious day it's been in the sun!

[Barry]

You know where you can stick your terracing. Crowds are up since the awful days of terracing. More and more families are watchin football - why?

Because they can sit in comfort and get a good view of a footy match without being pushed, jostled, feet stamped on. I take my five and eight year old boys to football, what kind of shitty view would they get terracing? And if someone pushed from behind into them, crushing them when a goal is scored, what then? A right hook from me and then there would be trouble.

The only reasons I can take my boys to watch football is that they are safer and can watch footy in relevant comfort, not left at the front of a terrace where I can't give them my 100% attention.

Screw the terrace!

i think you miss the point of campaigners. They are not trying to bring back vast amounts of terracing, but enough for people to have the CHOICE of whether they sit and stand. There would still be more than plenty of room for people to sit where they may feel 'safer'. That would be their choice.

i just fail to see why you would cast of this argument without realising it doesn't have to affect those people who want to remain seated.

"screw the terrace" is a bold statement, and if terraces are made in a better way, like in Germany, you will find this statement hard to justify

[Collis]

Hijack? What do you mean?

Only constructive crititcism allowed? tut tut....

Collis, to be fair, I have no objection to what you want, or any of the East end claims. I personally think you should have a section in the East End seated or unseated. But this kind of thread is now boring me, can't you take it somewhere esle?

This thread has nothing to do with the EE. It is about the possibility of bringing back terracing in football stadiums! I'm pretty sure this thread is pretty unique on the forum and is a good debating point!

I know, lets meet and have a drink in the Dolman bar on Saturday at half time, and chat about what a great goal Stevie Brooker has just scored.

Heck, we could talk about what a glorious day it's been in the sun!

And I am sat in the garden enjoying it. I would meet you for a drink at half time but I will be standing in the EE whcih I take it you wont be.

[bringbacktherobin]

Having terracing doesn't effect if there is going to be trouble or not.

That was the Spurs game, i somehow don't think that seat is meant to be half way up in the air. Just because i want to stand at football and sing doesnt make me a hooligan along with many many others at football matches.

Somewhere along the line, the passion of football fans has given the police etc the thought your going to be violent.

[WTFiGO!?!]

I can't help but think that BCFC is purposely driving away fans who want to stand and sing in order to replace their seats with families or executive tweed boys.

Look at the hassle the lads in the G Block have dealt with this season. No nonsense, kicking fans out for being passionate and trying to get behind their team.

Liverpool fans consistently stand week in week out in the Kop and stewards make little or no attempt to make them sit down probably for the fear of losing the supurb support they are famous for.

It is certainly true that folk I've dragged along in the past have thoroughly enjoyed their experiance and were mad for coming back (when in the EE) and were bored stiff with the alternative option that the Club offer's and have understandably not returned.

I thought though that this thread (like the alliteration there?) was dedicated to safe standing not the politics of BCFC.

For the record I get the impression that Steve (some of his advisers I have reservations about) is beginning to not only listen but hear and understand the message from our element of The People. Hostile 'opponents' will rub him up the wrong way and are detrimental. Sermon endeth here.

Mad for Swansea?

East, East Eastenders !!

[Guest Red Head]

Going to golf now but i'll be sat in the sunny Dolman on Saturday, then up to the baccy factory to celebrate a City win. Happy Easter.

[Collis]

It is certainly true that folk I've dragged along in the past have thoroughly enjoyed their experiance and were mad for coming back (when in the EE) and were bored stiff with the alternative option that the Club offer's and have understandably not returned.

Too true.

I thought though that this thread (like the alliteration there?) was dedicated to safe standing not the politics of BCFC.

I think in a way its related. If safe standing was introduced would this club follow?

For the record I get the impression that Steve (some of his advisers I have reservations about) is beginning to not only listen but hear and understand the message from our element of The People. Hostile 'opponents' will rub him up the wrong way and are detrimental. Sermon endeth here.

Mad for Swansea?

East, East Eastenders !!

Can't wait.

[WTFiGO!?!]

Going to golf now but i'll be sat in the sunny Dolman on Saturday, then up to the baccy factory to celebrate a City win. Happy Easter.

Thanks for your contribution.

I too didn't give a **** whether Red Robin the other day was displeased with the great Bristol public and their non sell-out at that point in time for Swansea but allowed myself to get involved anyway.

That won't be happening agian.

Enjoy the Golf and I'm glad you will now allow people to discuss a burning issue to them without the input of cheap self-entertainers or fisherman.

fao Collis: I think if safe standing was suddenly to be incoperated into 'modern thinking' and a national trend was to follow this Club would follow suit sharpish.

If I were No.1 gov'nor at BCFC I'd be pestering higher authoreties and trying to pioneer Football into the future, as it is I will just have to wait and put faith into the sitdownstandup activests. If I weren't such a lazy (and poor, unorganised bastard) I would have got up for that Wycombe game protest the other season, I'd certainly be on for some rallies if organised.

[Flaxbourton Red]

If I were No.1 gov'nor at BCFC I'd be pestering higher authoreties and trying to pioneer Football into the future, as it is I will just have to wait and put faith into the sitdownstandup activests. If I weren't such a lazy (and poor, unorganised bastard) I would have got up for that Wycombe game protest the other season, I'd certainly be on for some rallies if organised.

The game needs pioneering chairmen and women to take on the small minds of people such as Richard Caborn. Bristol city should be leading the way in fighting for the interests of all fans. Just because you have an all seater stadium doesn't mean everybody is going to sit down.

The current forced mix of those that want to stand with those that want to sit is in nobodies interest. Those that want to sit should be able to do so without people constantly standing up in thier way. Likewise those that want to stand should be able to do so without be criminalised. Stewards should be there for pointing people in the right direction, towards standing or seated area; and not having to pretend they are in the A Team.

[Blagdon red]

The game needs pioneering chairmen and women to take on the small minds of people such as Richard Caborn. Bristol city should be leading the way in fighting for the interests of all fans. Just because you have an all seater stadium doesn't mean everybody is going to sit down.

The current forced mix of those that want to stand with those that want to sit is in nobodies interest. Those that want to sit should be able to do so without people constantly standing up in thier way. Likewise those that want to stand should be able to do so without be criminalised. Stewards should be there for pointing people in the right direction, towards standing or seated area; and not having to pretend they are in the A Team.

Unfortunately Mr Caborn is one of the major obstacles. He was already MP for Sheffield Central at the time of the Hillsborough disaster. There is therefore very little chance that he'll ever agree to any form of standing at football - even if he was persuaded it was safe, it would be politically impossible for him as MP for the Hillsborough area to be the man that "brought back terracing".

That doesn't mean that the campaign is hopeless - just that nothing is likely to be resolved while he remains Sports Minister.

(The best chance is probably to get David Cameron onside - as he has already hinted he'd look at safe standing - and hope the Tories get in next time around)

[Dave L]

and hope the Tories get in next time around)

I'm all for sfae standing, but that's far too high a price to pay. :noexpression:

[22A]

Just heard on the radio about the Davis Cup Tennis at the NEC. English fans sat at the back can see very little as the 200 Dutch fans are standing and cheering on their players throughout the game. The NEC is a purpose built indoor seated arena not a sports ground that was hurridly converted. It seems irrespective of the sport being played many (admittedly not all) fans prefer gasp, shock horror.......

The Choice To Sit Or Stand.

[Barry]

Just heard on the radio about the Davis Cup Tennis at the NEC. English fans sat at the back can see very little as the 200 Dutch fans are standing and cheering on their players throughout the game. The NEC is a purpose built indoor seated arena not a sports ground that was hurridly converted. It seems irrespective of the sport being played many (admittedly not all) fans prefer gasp, shock horror.......

The Choice To Sit Or Stand.

and by giving the people the choice by having safe standing areas, those people who wish to stand would not obstruct the view of those who wish to remain seated.

surely everyone is a winner in this situation!

[Chappers]

In my opinion, standing should never have been abandoned. The Taylor Report actually made a lot of recommendation, but the Press only picked up on the All-Seater bit for some reason. The Hillsborough disaster was not caused by terracing, but by the terrace being segregated into 3 pens, and no specification which pen to enter. I was at the City game at Hillsborough not long after, and on entering the Leppings Lane enttrance, the obvious route is to the centre pen, hence the crush in that area. This all got overlooked in the desire for a knee-jerk reaction, and Club Chairman hoping for extra revenue from the seats.

As for lack of comfort, try the back of the Williams - The seats were designed for Kate Moss lookalikes, and with a few 'portly' people in my row (Myself included), the comfort factor is not evident! The biggest obstacle to terraces returning is the current breed of clueless Politicians from all of the major parties, who are far removed from reality and will not listen to the electorate. The second biggest obstacles are Club Chairmen who don't seem to grasp the simple fact that supporters are customers.

[Somertonian]

I prefer to stand. However, it is pure selfishness to stand in a seated area ignoring the desires of those behind.

I'm sure safe standing areas could be included in the design of new stadiums. Older stadiums may be adapted too. The large standing terraces of yesteryear will never come back IMHO. Whilst not dangerous in themselves (just look at the huge numbers that used to safely stand and watch football), combined with the stupidity and poor behaviour of some of today's supporters, the risk of crushes is simply too great.

As for supporters turning up without tickets, if Michael Eavis can solve the issue for Glastonbury festival I'm sure it can be solved for football. The risk of a Hillsborough style disaster was probably eliminated by the removal of the cages that held supporters in.

My earlier reference to events in Italy and Spain was meant to highlight the mob mentality of the so-called supporters. It seems obvious to me that the old terraces would accommodate many more supporters and would allow the troublemakers to group together to feed off each other's encouragement when things turn nasty.

Good luck with the campaign.

S

[Chappers]

the stupidity and poor behaviour of some of today's supporters

would allow the troublemakers to group together to feed off each other's encouragement when things turn nasty

Not stereo-typing football supporters then! Visit any City Centre on a saturday night and you will see far more aggression and stupidity than you will ever see at football - But we don't have all-seater Pubs. Or all-seater night-clubs! Football has cleaned its act up considerably since the 80's, and trotting out the hooligan myth does not do anyone any favours. I see worse conduct on a Works night out than at football!

As regards tickets, this is a myth - In nearly 30 years of watching City, I have never seen large numbers of ticketless fans turning up, and I am not aware of it happening elsewhere either. A convenient excuse to trot out for any muck ip by Club or Police. I can remember a game v The Sags where fans WITH tickets could not get in.......

As regards

the risk of crushes is simply too great

- Why is this permitted every day on our pathetic privatised shambles of a railway, but too great a risk at football? I know where I feel safer!

[Flaxbourton Red]

I prefer to stand. However, it is pure selfishness to stand in a seated area ignoring the desires of those behind.

I'm sure safe standing areas could be included in the design of new stadiums. Older stadiums may be adapted too. The large standing terraces of yesteryear will never come back IMHO. Whilst not dangerous in themselves (just look at the huge numbers that used to safely stand and watch football), combined with the stupidity and poor behaviour of some of today's supporters, the risk of crushes is simply too great.

As for supporters turning up without tickets, if Michael Eavis can solve the issue for Glastonbury festival I'm sure it can be solved for football. The risk of a Hillsborough style disaster was probably eliminated by the removal of the cages that held supporters in.

My earlier reference to events in Italy and Spain was meant to highlight the mob mentality of the so-called supporters. It seems obvious to me that the old terraces would accommodate many more supporters and would allow the troublemakers to group together to feed off each other's encouragement when things turn nasty.

why don't you read up more on hillsborough?

Read David Conn's books "The beautiful game" or "The football business", don't try to make arguements up without knowing the full facts.

[Barry]

why don't you read up more on hillsborough?

Read David Conn's books "The beautiful game" or "The football business", don't try to make arguements up without knowing the full facts.

not knowing much about the incident myself i thought i would do some research:

"Between 2.00pm and 2.45pm there was a considerable build-up of fans (many of whom did not have tickets) in the small area outside the turnstile entrances to the Leppings Lane End, all eager to enter the stadium quickly before the match started. A bottleneck developed with more fans arriving than were able to enter the stadium. With an estimated 5,000 fans trying to get through the turnstiles and increasing security concerns over crushing outside the turnstiles, the police decided to open up a set of gates, intended as an exit, which did not have turnstiles (Gate C). This caused a rush of people through the gate into the stadium."

"police or stewards would normally stand at the entrance to the tunnel if these central pens had reached capacity and would direct fans to the side pens, but on this occasion did not, for reasons which have never been adequately explained."

"A police spokesman said orders were given for the gate to the stand to be opened because they believed the pressure of fans outside the ground was "a danger to life".

to me this just seems, the combination of shocking policing and stewarding aswell as poor ticket allocation AND NOT TERRACING lead to this tragedy

[WessexPest]

I think the case for terracing making for better atmosphere is vastly overstated.

Get this: Ibrox Stadium as been basically all-seated sine the late 1970s yet it is still one of the most intimidating arenas in European football on its day; I think it was Nick Hornby who admitted in his book 'Fever Pitch' that an all-seated Ibrox generated a far better atmosphere than a terraced North Bank or Clock End ever did.

I must admit when I watch old English matches on ESPN Classic (they even show City sometimes!) that I feel a pang of nostalgia to see massive banks of standing fans surging forward at a goal but the game has evolved since then and I'd be astonished if things went backwards. By and large football fans demand better facilities now they no longer pay a nominal fee to watch games. I for one would not pay £30 to be crushed into a tiny space, surge over every inch of concrete then pop out the ground like a cork from a champagne bottle, and have some neanderthal urinate on the back of my legs (but enough of my personal kinks...)

I'm not saying it would definitely happen but can you imagine somewhere along the line of there was a fatality on a terrace? The criticism of the people who had let the game regress in this manner would be unimaginable.

Terraces are a thing of the past in this country and on balance, I can't say I miss them.

[WessexPest]

Football has cleaned its act up considerably since the 80's

Yes, so let's not undo all that good work.

[Flaxbourton Red]

I think the case for terracing making for better atmosphere is vastly overstated.

Get this: Ibrox Stadium as been basically all-seated sine the late 1970s yet it is still one of the most intimidating arenas in European football on its day; I think it was Nick Hornby who admitted in his book 'Fever Pitch' that an all-seated Ibrox generated a far better atmosphere than a terraced North Bank or Clock End ever did.

I must admit when I watch old English matches on ESPN Classic (they even show City sometimes!) that I feel a pang of nostalgia to see massive banks of standing fans surging forward at a goal but the game has evolved since then and I'd be astonished if things went backwards. By and large football fans demand better facilities now they no longer pay a nominal fee to watch games. I for one would not pay £30 to be crushed into a tiny space, surge over every inch of concrete then pop out the ground like a cork from a champagne bottle, and have some neanderthal urinate on the back of my legs (but enough of my personal kinks...)

I'm not saying it would definitely happen but can you imagine somewhere along the line of there was a fatality on a terrace? The criticism of the people who had let the game regress in this manner would be unimaginable.

Terraces are a thing of the past in this country and on balance, I can't say I miss them.

a highly cliched take on terracing, which is not bears little resemblence to the reality of the Westland terrace at yeovil, the Blackthorne end at the rugby ground, s****horpe are any other existing terrace. Current health and safety guidence on terracing alone would not permit a timewarp style return to the 1970s.

Life on Mars is fiction.

[WessexPest]

a highly cliched take on terracing, which is not bears little resemblence to the reality of the Westland terrace at yeovil, the Blackthorne end at the rugby ground, s****horpe are any other existing terrace. Current health and safety guidence on terracing alone would not permit a timewarp style return to the 1970s.

Life on Mars is fiction.

Maybe, but like all cliches it is completely true

I don't see why some people are so desperate for the return of this?

[Flaxbourton Red]

Maybe, but like all cliches it is completely true

I don't see why some people are so desperate for the return of this?

time for some more cliches

"The wrong thing to do about any given circumstance or situation is to do nothing.

Never regret yesterday. Life is in you today, and you make your tomorrow".

I think people simply want live football to be more enjoyable.

[WTFiGO!?!]

I think the case for terracing making for better atmosphere is vastly overstated.

Get this: Ibrox Stadium as been basically all-seated sine the late 1970s yet it is still one of the most intimidating arenas in European football on its day; I think it was Nick Hornby who admitted in his book 'Fever Pitch' that an all-seated Ibrox generated a far better atmosphere than a terraced North Bank or Clock End ever did.

I must admit when I watch old English matches on ESPN Classic (they even show City sometimes!) that I feel a pang of nostalgia to see massive banks of standing fans surging forward at a goal but the game has evolved since then and I'd be astonished if things went backwards. By and large football fans demand better facilities now they no longer pay a nominal fee to watch games. I for one would not pay £30 to be crushed into a tiny space, surge over every inch of concrete then pop out the ground like a cork from a champagne bottle, and have some neanderthal urinate on the back of my legs (but enough of my personal kinks...)

I'm not saying it would definitely happen but can you imagine somewhere along the line of there was a fatality on a terrace? The criticism of the people who had let the game regress in this manner would be unimaginable.

Terraces are a thing of the past in this country and on balance, I can't say I miss them.

Yep, indeed.

We're not though talking about Ibrox in the late 70's, we're not talking about the authoretie's incompetence allowing 96 people to crush to death in the Leppings Lane end, we're not talking about mindless folk urination against the back of a chap's legs.

What we're talking about is Football and the year 2007 where AG not only fails to produce an intimidating atmosphere but fails to produce any atmosphere worthwhile of any mention at all.

I stand, I get thoroughly involved (R*vers away being a recent example. The opening of the EE also), I sit and I get bored, me mind wonders off.

Just to say also that that now is the age that Football has become a consumer commersialised comodety and so obviously capitalism not community is the focus.

Traditionally minded Football fan's perspectives' are not therefore deemed a second look.

Are we just s'pose to sit back and let our way be unscrupilously whored?.... all fun gone - giant foam hands and silly wigs being the replacement? .... I for one sure as hell can't do it.

This won't go away.

[RedTop]

By far and away the best atmosphere this season has not been at Yeovil (where the atmosphere was distinctly and disappointingly flat), Chesterfield or any other ground with terracing, it was at Forest and Swansea.

Both all-seater. Not sure about Forest, but Swansea has no non-reserved area. Atmosphere is not created by people standing or sitting. It's created by having large numbers of people in a ground who care because the game means something - at Forest because both teams knew it was likely to be one of the tougest tests of the season and basically a 'six-pointer' and at Swansea because of all the usual nationalism and traditional antagonism between the clubs etc.

Although I think people are frankly bonkers to want to stand to watch a game they could get a better view of sitting down without any associated leg-ache, I have no inherent objection provided they are prepared to pay the same price that they would to sit. However, as I've argued before, trying to link standing to the lack of atmosphere at The Gate is a red herring which only detracts from attempts to try to improve it, since you can't solve a problem unless you diagnose exactly where the seat of the problem is (no pun intended).

In terms of atmosphere, I can see an argument for a non-reserved area where singers can congregate. I can see an argument for having City fans on all four sides of the ground. But standing up or sitting down surely makes no inherent difference. Surely it's not the posture that determines whether people sing, it's the people themselves?

[WTFiGO!?!]

By far and away the best atmosphere this season has not been at Yeovil (where the atmosphere was distinctly and disappointingly flat), Chesterfield or any other ground with terracing, it was at Forest and Swansea.

Both all-seater. Not sure about Forest, but Swansea has no non-reserved area. Atmosphere is not created by people standing or sitting. It's created by having large numbers of people in a ground who care because the game means something - at Forest because both teams knew it was likely to be one of the tougest tests of the season and basically a 'six-pointer' and at Swansea because of all the usual nationalism and traditional antagonism between the clubs etc.

Although I think people are frankly bonkers to want to stand to watch a game they could get a better view of sitting down without any associated leg-ache, I have no inherent objection provided they are prepared to pay the same price that they would to sit. However, as I've argued before, trying to link standing to the lack of atmosphere at The Gate is a red herring which only detracts from attempts to try to improve it, since you can't solve a problem unless you diagnose exactly where the seat of the problem is (no pun intended).

In terms of atmosphere, I can see an argument for a non-reserved area where singers can congregate. I can see an argument for having City fans on all four sides of the ground. But standing up or sitting down surely makes no inherent difference. Surely it's not the posture that determines whether people sing, it's the people themselves?

Did you notice any difference in atmospheric terms for the Brentford game?

(it's a eutorical question - if that's the word journo?)