St Sales Pass 5,000

[Geoff65]

The last few rows of figures then look at what revenue might have been generated had those seats been sold at anything from just £2.50 to £15.

On an assumed capacity of 19,000, the 700,000 unsold seats during that period would have generated an additional £10m if sold at £15 each or nearly £2m if sold at just £2.50.

On an assumed capacity of 16,000, the 400,000 unsold seats would have generated £6m in extra revenue if sold at £15 and £1m at £2.50.

I'll leave it for others to discuss whether or not City operated the 'right' pricing policies during that period - hopefully the figures above will provide added material for the debate.

Problem with this is that a lot of ST holders would be right pee'd off for people getting in for £15 - I have heard a lot of comments from STs about how unfair it is to them when they have a "quid a kid" offer on.

[Blagdon red]

Problem with this is that a lot of ST holders would be right pee'd off for people getting in for £15 - I have heard a lot of comments from STs about how unfair it is to them when they have a "quid a kid" offer on.

I'm not actually suggesting that the unsold seats should have been sold for £15 or £2.50 or any other particular price come to that. However, as it must be the club's intention to maximise revenue from attendances (both from the price paid for the ticket and the other purchases that each fan may make), it follows that when the ground is less than full they have missed an opportunity.

I don't have a magic solution to this, but when you see Middlesbrough putting 10,000 on their gate for their game against us by slashing the ticket price and when you consider that low-cost airlines run at an average sell-out level of around 90%, you do have to wonder whether football clubs, which like airlines have a perishable inventory that can only be sold once yet regularly leave their grounds 25% or more unsold, have got their pricing strategy right.

The issue of what ST holders would or would not object to in terms of special offers elsewhere in the ground is clearly relevant ... but it needn't be a major issue as long as the pricing policy was transparent and advertised in advance (i.e. any cut-price tickets were not introduced during a season once ST holders had bought their tickets, but were announced pre-season so a fan could choose whether to buy an ST or take advantage as and when of whatever the deals were to be).

For example, if it was announced in the summer months that a limited number of tickets in the slowest selling parts of the ground would be sold during the coming season on an Easyjet-style basis (i.e. only online, very cheap well in advance and getting dearer as supply ran out), Joe Fan has a choice: Does he buy his season ticket in the middle of the Dolman, get one of the best views in the house and be guaranteed his seat for every game with nothing more to do, or does he decide to chance his luck in advance of each game by trying to snap up a discounted ticket at pitch level in the corner of the Williams or block A of the Atyeo, with no guarantee that he'll get one. The sort of ST holder who wants the security that an ST brings is unlikely to want to chance this, yet will hardly begrudge this opportunity to the fan who cannot afford an ST and finds himself being priced out of football these days, who may find it a great way of occasionally getting a ticket at a price he can afford.

While seats remain empty, the simple fact is that the pricing strategy is wrong (not just at City - at all venues that regularly fail to sell out). Precisely what it should be at Ashton Gate ... now that requires more debate ...

[Geoff65]

I agree with most if not all of what you have said.

Would love to be able to say to the club on the morning of the match - I would like to buy tickets for the match at £20 for myself and a £5 for my daughter and negotiate a good price - good matches like WBA Wolves etc... they would probably say no chance, matches in mid week where the opponents are travelling a long long way or not very well supported (ala cheltenham last season) they will bite my hand off and other matches they say well no we cant accept £25 but we'll do it for £33 etc...

Can't see that happening until they introduce the low budget airline (with the equally impressive website and booking facilities) approach - would be quite innovative but perhaps some health and safety guy will spout out what about fan segregation etc...

[Chappers]

This is a big two fingers to all the "fans" who winged and moaned about the ST increase!!!!!!! For those who will shy away from re-newing or buying this year, others are more than willing to take your place.

Would it not be better to retain existing supporters AND adding new ones?

[andy234]

Would it not be better to retain existing supporters AND adding new ones?

That is spot on and was what I was expecting after our promotion party, they should have brought the increase in over 2 seasons £50 this season and £50 next, would have e been more exceptable (unless they plan another £100 increase)

[Rich]

Not true - if I attend 10 home games next season (which I will) I will pay £300 to sit in the best seats in the Dolman. A ST for the same seat is over £450 - I will continue to POD as I know I won't go to every home game from my base in Kent.

Well_red

Sorry well red. Even coming down from kent which is great, I was refering to fans, perhaps based a little closer that attend 15 or more games. Then buying a S T is a must and is TRUE . And you'll only sit in the best seats if some rich B#####rd hasn't already bought it.

[Rich]

This is a big two fingers to all the "fans" who winged and moaned about the ST increase!!!!!!! For those who will shy away from re-newing or buying this year, others are more than willing to take your place.

Well done

Heres two fingers and you can shove them where the sun don't shine. I have supported City for forty one years,only missing a couple of matches a year. I deserve to watch my club play at the highest level.Now I find through no fault of my own I might not be able to do so as much as before,If I can't support them fully I will feel as if I am not being true to the cause, and be deemed a part time supporter which I am not, and don't intend to be. So if I can't support my club fully the other person who can afford my place, can have it.But will he be around for forty one years? that is the question Sexton has to ask himself, because this could ruin the hardcore support but he won't be around then will he?

[Dogbert]

If, having been promoted, we're not being watched by significantly more people than before I would think they got the pricing wrong.

Do you have an idea of what sort of figure you'd hope to see? 1,000 - 2,000 extra seems about right I reckon, judging by average attendances last two times we went up.

11,584 1989-90 2nd in 3rd tier

13,493 1990-91 9th in 2nd tier

11,846 1997-98 2nd in 3rd tier

12,840 1998-99 24th in 2nd tier

12,818 2006-07 2nd in 3rd tier

?????? 2007-08

Would it not be better to retain existing supporters AND adding new ones?

Yeah, that would've been particularly important had the sags not gone up

[Nibor]

Do you have an idea of what sort of figure you'd hope to see? 1,000 - 2,000 extra seems about right I reckon, judging by average attendances last two times we went up.

11,584 1989-90 2nd in 3rd tier

13,493 1990-91 9th in 2nd tier

11,846 1997-98 2nd in 3rd tier

12,840 1998-99 24th in 2nd tier

12,818 2006-07 2nd in 3rd tier

?????? 2007-08

If we'd only gone for a 20% rise, and offered a small reduction for renewals, I'd be hoping for an average of about 16k and I'd realistically expect it to be over 15k.

That's us adding about 3k to our average home attendance from last season (bear in mind football attendance in general has gone up since the last couple of promotions and that away attendance will go up).

I suspect that what we will see now will actually be within 1,000 of last season, say 13,500.

We might sell a few more season tickets, 8-8.5k, though it's not looking great on that front so far, but I suspect that will be at the expense of walk up.

I think a better approach would have been to keep the rise reasonable this season, get the stadium full and sell as many tickets as possible. Then put the prices up another small increment the season after. It's easier to keep customers than get new ones. I reckon we've skipped an opportunity to entice a whole load of floaters into buying season tickets by hiking them so high in one fell swoop.

[Bristol Boy]

This is a big two fingers to all the "fans" who winged and moaned about the ST increase!!!!!!! For those who will shy away from re-newing or buying this year, others are more than willing to take your place.

It's nothing of the sort and without any breakdown of renewal etc we won't know until around 15/20th June or even later if some people don't mind losing their seat and sitting somewhere else.We are not Man Utd and we haven't got a waiting list of fans who want seats, so that's a very stupid and frankly dangerous stance to take-Not to mention uncaring & arrogant.

Those people who the club don't need in your eyes will be the very same people that they are begging to renew if we are as succesful as we were last time.

Well done

[Bristol Boy]

Heres two fingers and you can shove them where the sun don't shine. I have supported City for forty one years,only missing a couple of matches a year. I deserve to watch my club play at the highest level.Now I find through no fault of my own I might not be able to do so as much as before,If I can't support them fully I will feel as if I am not being true to the cause, and be deemed a part time supporter which I am not, and don't intend to be. So if I can't support my club fully the other person who can afford my place, can have it.But will he be around for forty one years? that is the question Sexton has to ask himself, because this could ruin the hardcore support but he won't be around then will he?

Well said and the more posts I read like this the more disappointed I become.

It's not just what's been done, it's the way it's been done and the fact that it could well be highly counter productive on many fronts.

[RedTop]

Anyone that describes a football club as a business hasn't got a cat in hells chance of understanding the concept of a supporter.

The vast majority of people attending football in the 3rd division are supporters.

As I see it, Sexstone and Lansdown would like to attract more customers.

Customers - the right sort - will spend more than supporters.

Its all about egos.

Similarly, any chairman/chief executive that doesn't see a football club as a business hasn't got a cat in hell's chance of running it efficiently.

The vast majority of people attending football in the 3rd division may well be supporters, but the income from them alone would not be sufficient to compete on level terms with the teams that any ambitious Bristol City supporter should be aiming to compete with unless prices were raised to be comparable. We are not a lone club operating in a vacuum. We are up against other teams who are efficient at maximizing revenue from as many income streams as possible to buy and fund their squad. If those at the top of our club do not try to do the same, they put us at a distinct and tangible disadvantage in seeking to compete with other teams in the division.

Therefore, Colin Sexstone and SteveL are absolutely right in trying to attract more customers. Or would you prefer we only play to those who were prepared to watch us when we were in the Third Division, or even bottom of Division Four if you want to separate the wheat from the chaff?

It's not all about egos. It's all about trying to maximise revenue to help this club become as successful as possible. Surely doing anything else would show a lack of ambition - exactly the sort of thing fans moan about and makes them swear they'll not buy a season ticket for the coming season! And I go back to my point that it is perfectly possible to watch City play on very modest incomes if you actually look at the actual prices themselves instead of tying yourself in knots about percentage increases. Would the prices for the coming season have been any cheaper if last season's prices were higher and the percentage increase was lower? No, of course not. You can buy a season ticket, spread the cost over seven monthly payments and watch City for a perfectly reasonable and affordable price throughout the season, and you can do it knowing you are supporting a team and a board who are driven to try and bring success to our club and give us the taste of glory that we've been craving for so many years.

I was too young to experience the last promotion to the top flight. I want to do it again. And in this day and age, that means getting real and understanding that when we are up against teams with big support, many of whom have had parachute payments in recent years, that means the club charging us more. The prices are fair, and that's all we can expect. In fact it's exactly what we should be demanding if we want to see City look up the Championship instead of down.

[Bristol Boy]

===============

QUOTE(jimtastic @ Jun 6 2007, 10:55 AM) *

Well put.

Just incorrect

===============

If we're losing £1m a year, explain to me how we are not bankrupt? I'm not saying us supporters don't play a huge part in the cashflow, but in our current state we'd go belly up without the shareholder backing.

Simple.We have an overdraft and we are paying interest on time.The banks would far rather that than we had £2m on deposit with them

I can't understand why people think it's 30-40% or nothing? I haven't heard or read anyone say there should have been no rise

Because 30-40% won't cover the increase in operating costs that we'll accrue by going up to the Championship, nor will it make us cash positive.

If that's the case, why not jack it up 50%? Why aren't Colchester with crowds of 5,000 charging £1,000 for an ST?

In my opinion, it's another example of the "I want to pay less, but am totally blind to the implications" attitude we see on here all too often.

I don't want to pay less, however, neither do I want to pay 30-40% more-There is middle ground and I'm not talking through personal interest as I'm lucky enough to be able to afford it.There is also the point that Nibor, amongst others, has been making, that cheaper prices doesn't equal less income if you sell more seats and does anyone seriously think we'd sell less seats if we charged less for them or that less people would POD if the same applied??

City are merely trying to be competitive in what is rapidly becoming a crappy sport for spectators.

The switched on clubs are beginning to realise that, even with multi millionaire owners & backers, it doesn't work with a half full stadium either from a financial or football perspective.Villa are the latest to reduce prices and even less fashionable clubs like Wigan, Blackburn and Bolton, who were close to Champions League Qualification, have seen the light.As our stadium grows, we will need to be clever to fill it if succesful.We'll need to be even cleverer to fill it if we're not!!

I hope more clubs do and even more Chairman tell greedy agents and players to sling their hook.

[Bristol Boy]

Similarly, any chairman/chief executive that doesn't see a football club as a business hasn't got a cat in hell's chance of running it efficiently.

But we were very inefficient for a long time under both SC, JL & SL

Therefore, Colin Sexstone and SteveL are absolutely right in trying to attract more customers.

Great if more people come, but not if existing fans don't and it could be argued that is what these rises are doing and that they are counter productive

Or would you prefer we only play to those who were prepared to watch us when we were in the Third Division, or even bottom of Division Four if you want to separate the wheat from the chaff?

Come one, Come all but reward loyalty and stay fair.

I was too young to experience the last promotion to the top flight. I want to do it again. And in this day and age, that means getting real and understanding that when we are up against teams with big support, many of whom have had parachute payments in recent years, that means the club charging us more. The prices are fair, and that's all we can expect. In fact it's exactly what we should be demanding if we want to see City look up the Championship instead of down.

And in that statement will you agree that by buying my ST I am entitled to expect a Championship Team for my Championship price and to expect us to exceed Colchesters acheivement by five points, thus finishing 6th?

NB I'm not suggesting we'll be able to compete with clubs enjoying Parachute Payments and I fully expect them to yo-yo!

[bez]

copy paste copy paste whats going on :noexpression:

[Belfastcityfan]

Would it not be better to retain existing supporters AND adding new ones?

The increase I feel was necessary to fund the move up into the Championship.

[NickJ]

Similarly, any chairman/chief executive that doesn't see a football club as a business hasn't got a cat in hell's chance of running it efficiently.

That is incorrect.

I don't disagree with many of the points in the remainder of your post, but to suggest that a football club should be run in accordance with a business model completely fails to understand the historical point of a football club.

We could all name businesses which over a period of years have re-positioned themselves in terms of the type of customer they have targeted.

And the "football industry" is a classic example of that. So traditional grass roots supporters have been disenfranchised and priced out of the game. Thats why you see independent Wimbledon AFC's and Manchester United's. Those clubs are not run as a business but I can assure you they are ran extremely efficiently - I would argue in fact more so than the majority of football clubs are.

Sorry, but it is all about egos. What else do football club directors get out of it?

My business and social life brings me into contact with many people in Bristol, across all income earning groups, from the extremely wealthy to those scratching around on very modest incomes. The former group would in the main agree with your viewpoint, the latter wouldnt. I spoke to somebody in that category only yesterday.

So I suppose it depends how much importance you place on the success of Bristol City relative to the individual.

You may well respond, and effectively you have, by saying that if we want to compete with Championship and Premiership teams, we have to adopt such a model, and if that means losing some support along the way because they are priced out, that is tough on them.

I do not agree.

Of course prices for next season would have to increase. However the main thing that has rankled the majority of season ticket holders is the failure to reward loyalty, as has happened in every other season before this one for as long as I can remember.

[Blagdon red]

Of course prices for next season would have to increase. However the main thing that has rankled the majority of season ticket holders is the failure to reward loyalty, as has happened in every other season before this one for as long as I can remember.

And therein lies the rub ... good businesses reward loyalty (e.g. Tesco, the UK's most successful retailer).

It was a poor business decision to show a total lack of regard for the loyalty of the club's existing 'customers' when pricing STs for next season. The price per se is less of an issue for most (although clearly it is for some) ... it is the lack of appreciation for past loyalty that irks and that has had the effect of dampening the euphoria of promotion.

My Atyeo ST next season will cost £375. Had this been an Earlybird price and the price for newcomers or late renewers been £385 the club would have generated at least as much money, if not more, and I would have felt that at least I was receiving some reward for my past custom ... as it is I'm getting none and like all other long-standing 'customers' of the club am being made to pay the same price as any Johnny come lately. That's what has made many people see red!

[Chappers]

Therefore, Colin Sexstone and SteveL are absolutely right in trying to attract more customers. Or would you prefer we only play to those who were prepared to watch us when we were in the Third Division, or even bottom of Division Four if you want to separate the wheat from the chaff?

Small flaw in this argument - If we get relegated again (And historical precedent suggests that is considerably more likely than promotion), the prawn-sandwich brigade will desert, and the Club won't have us 'chaff' to keep it going. Surely it is better that we attract as many people as possible, and please remember, without the 'chaff' like me who stuck by the Club in 1982 in Division 4, there would be no Bristol City.

Am I the only City fan who is more concerned about survival rather than 'challenging' and 'competing'?

[semblar]

Just renewed mine this morning (a bit ahead of plan - suddenly got to go overseas for a week with work and don't want to miss the boat). Lady on the phone said they're almost to 6,000 so far, and "a lot" of those are new applicants.

So if there's still several thousand existing ST holders that do plan to renew next week (not got a clue, but quite possibly!) then CS's estimates of 10k might not be far from the mark

[RedTop]

Small flaw in this argument - If we get relegated again (And historical precedent suggests that is considerably more likely than promotion), the prawn-sandwich brigade will desert, and the Club won't have us 'chaff' to keep it going. Surely it is better that we attract as many people as possible, and please remember, without the 'chaff' like me who stuck by the Club in 1982 in Division 4, there would be no Bristol City.

Am I the only City fan who is more concerned about survival rather than 'challenging' and 'competing'?

I think the point is that se can do both provided the finances are right. I absolutely agree that the club's survival must come before wantonly 'gambling' on success in the way that Bradford, Leeds etc have done. But that is why we need to maximize income.

I too have stuck with the club since 1982, and I hope you appreciate my use of "wheat" and "chaff" was meant as ironic. I don't see why, with the installment system, a season ticket should be out of reach for most fans. There will always be a few who cannot afford a hike in price due to their circumstances, sadly, and that has always been the case. If you look on the web, it's worth noting that in 'deprived' areas like Liverpool, even the cheapest season ticket prices are much more expensive than ours. Obviously the football is better as it's the Prem, but that's not my point. My point is that 'working class' fans still manage to buy season tickets for the club they love - and in some cases travel around Europe - despite being on low salaries or, presumably in some cases. no salaries. They can't all nick them...

I refuse to believe the number who will be priced out of buying a ticket is anything other than very low. The rest of the rest will simply have decided that paying a price which roughly compares with the average in the division we are in is more than they are willing to pay. That is sad but it is their choice. We all have alternatives competing for our money, but I don't see why City should not charge prices that are roughly average for the division if the club is ambitious to bring a success that we could all share in - without leaving the club up the proverbial creek financially. The club has provided a facility to spread the cost, so while I understand the kneejerk reaction when people take it in as a percentage increase year on year, I don't think the complaints are warranted once people actually digest the cost itself, what they get for their money and how the club wants to use the money to move forward and bring even more success.

[Chessels Chick]

Just renewed mine this morning (a bit ahead of plan - suddenly got to go overseas for a week with work and don't want to miss the boat). Lady on the phone said they're almost to 6,000 so far, and "a lot" of those are new applicants.

So if there's still several thousand existing ST holders that do plan to renew next week (not got a clue, but quite possibly!) then CS's estimates of 10k might not be far from the mark

I'll be getting mine tomorrow but only as might not be able to get down in the week - I'm sure there are plenty of other ST holders leaving it to the last minute to renew

[pdgifford64]

Ive read god knows how many posts on this topic and to be fair there have been reasonable arguments representing both sides. So here`s my penneth worth.

On a personal note i have already renewed, both mine and my step-daughters, ST. Fortunately i can afford it, but thats not the point. IMO the price rise, while a little high, isn`t entirely unreasonable. I`ll defend that statement a little further down the line. However, i do agree with those who are disappointed that there has been no early bird opportunity for the long term season ticket holders.

A few have been critical of SL and the board in their financial running of the club. Well, i`m sorry, but that astounds me. Anybody who invests money in a football club, at this level must know they are on a hiding to nothing. In fact using the word `investment` just isn`t applicable at all.

We are all supporters of this club to varying degrees and we all contribute through the turnstiles and commercial aspects to varying degrees. From ST holders to occasional POTD attendees. But the one thing we should all have in common is the desire to see this club succeed, but more importantly to see it survive.

The one sure-fire way to see the club financially secure is for the club to give up any ambition for success. That`s just not going to happen. I wouldn`t want to watch the club i`ve grown up with and love dearly plodding along in the conference with a ` we`re not going anywhere but it`s ok `cos we`re debt free` attitude.

I`ve held the believe for the past 6 years or so that the advent of SKY is the worst thing that ever happened to the game here. It has flooded the upper levels of the game with exorbitant amounts of money. Lets face it, WHUs` £5M fine is a drop in the ocean that will disappear in the significant obtained from surviving in the PL. A fine of that level would cripple a club like us.

Those extravagent amounts have filtered through to players, agents, management to such a degree that i believe it is not possible for a club like ours to `plan` a charge for the promised land. Yes, we`ve made it back to the second tier, but i honestly believe that it will take all our efforts over the next few years just to consolidate in the CCC and that effort alone will cost us £M`s over the course of a few seasons. We may not like it but that is the envoironment of the game that we as a club now exist in. It`s not SL fault, or CS for that matter. Decisions have and will in the future be made that will hit us, the supporters, in the pocket. It`s the price we will have to pay for success.

In a perfect world that success would come with rewards for fans and in a way it does. But those rewards arn`t and never will be financial. For those that think they should be then unfortunately you are the ones will drift away.

As for the future, who knows ?

I`d like to think that at some point, once we`ve consolidated !!, we will experience that one flukey season that will see us play in the PL. Flukey i hear you say. Yes, flukey, because i believe that for all the talk about how big this club could be the truth of the matter is that unless we `acquire` a Roman Abramovich of our own we will never be able to compete on a regular basis to get promotion to or sustain a period in the PL. I believe we`ve missed the gravy train and playing catch up is going to be nigh on impossible.

So how is all that relevant to this particular debate?

I`d like to think that after all the effort to get here the club can balance the need for success and financial stability and get us on the right footing to see the CCC as our `home` for seasons to come. I think that SL has made a good start in that direction. As i said before, the envoironment is not the boards fault, but now we are here we must be competitive just to stay here.

The fact is there will be casualties along the way. Supporters who will eventually be priced out of watching their team. It`s a sad indictment on the direction the game has taken but that is the way it is. It`s not the clubs fault or SL.

People will say that someone will have to take a stand, lower prices, take a chance that we`ll get bigger attendances etc etc. That`s all very well if you have the finances in place to cover you if it all goes pear-shaped. We havn`t and we need to be competitive. The alternative is to throw the ambition out of the window and we can all pay a fiver a match to watch City in the conference.

PDG

[Rich]

I'm nearly resigned to parting with £455, but I had to sell the car to raise the cash, my wifes not to happy.

[megansdad]

Ive read god knows how many posts on this topic and to be fair there have been reasonable arguments representing both sides. So here`s my penneth worth.

On a personal note i have already renewed, both mine and my step-daughters, ST. Fortunately i can afford it, but thats not the point. IMO the price rise, while a little high, isn`t entirely unreasonable. I`ll defend that statement a little further down the line. However, i do agree with those who are disappointed that there has been no early bird opportunity for the long term season ticket holders.

A few have been critical of SL and the board in their financial running of the club. Well, i`m sorry, but that astounds me. Anybody who invests money in a football club, at this level must know they are on a hiding to nothing. In fact using the word `investment` just isn`t applicable at all.

We are all supporters of this club to varying degrees and we all contribute through the turnstiles and commercial aspects to varying degrees. From ST holders to occasional POTD attendees. But the one thing we should all have in common is the desire to see this club succeed, but more importantly to see it survive.

The one sure-fire way to see the club financially secure is for the club to give up any ambition for success. That`s just not going to happen. I wouldn`t want to watch the club i`ve grown up with and love dearly plodding along in the conference with a ` we`re not going anywhere but it`s ok `cos we`re debt free` attitude.

I`ve held the believe for the past 6 years or so that the advent of SKY is the worst thing that ever happened to the game here. It has flooded the upper levels of the game with exorbitant amounts of money. Lets face it, WHUs` £5M fine is a drop in the ocean that will disappear in the significant obtained from surviving in the PL. A fine of that level would cripple a club like us.

Those extravagent amounts have filtered through to players, agents, management to such a degree that i believe it is not possible for a club like ours to `plan` a charge for the promised land. Yes, we`ve made it back to the second tier, but i honestly believe that it will take all our efforts over the next few years just to consolidate in the CCC and that effort alone will cost us £M`s over the course of a few seasons. We may not like it but that is the envoironment of the game that we as a club now exist in. It`s not SL fault, or CS for that matter. Decisions have and will in the future be made that will hit us, the supporters, in the pocket. It`s the price we will have to pay for success.

In a perfect world that success would come with rewards for fans and in a way it does. But those rewards arn`t and never will be financial. For those that think they should be then unfortunately you are the ones will drift away.

As for the future, who knows ?

I`d like to think that at some point, once we`ve consolidated !!, we will experience that one flukey season that will see us play in the PL. Flukey i hear you say. Yes, flukey, because i believe that for all the talk about how big this club could be the truth of the matter is that unless we `acquire` a Roman Abramovich of our own we will never be able to compete on a regular basis to get promotion to or sustain a period in the PL. I believe we`ve missed the gravy train and playing catch up is going to be nigh on impossible.

So how is all that relevant to this particular debate?

I`d like to think that after all the effort to get here the club can balance the need for success and financial stability and get us on the right footing to see the CCC as our `home` for seasons to come. I think that SL has made a good start in that direction. As i said before, the envoironment is not the boards fault, but now we are here we must be competitive just to stay here.

The fact is there will be casualties along the way. Supporters who will eventually be priced out of watching their team. It`s a sad indictment on the direction the game has taken but that is the way it is. It`s not the clubs fault or SL.

People will say that someone will have to take a stand, lower prices, take a chance that we`ll get bigger attendances etc etc. That`s all very well if you have the finances in place to cover you if it all goes pear-shaped. We havn`t and we need to be competitive. The alternative is to throw the ambition out of the window and we can all pay a fiver a match to watch City in the conference.

PDG

Top post !!

[RedTop]

Ive read god knows how many posts on this topic and to be fair there have been reasonable arguments representing both sides. So here`s my penneth worth.

On a personal note i have already renewed, both mine and my step-daughters, ST. Fortunately i can afford it, but thats not the point. IMO the price rise, while a little high, isn`t entirely unreasonable. I`ll defend that statement a little further down the line. However, i do agree with those who are disappointed that there has been no early bird opportunity for the long term season ticket holders.

A few have been critical of SL and the board in their financial running of the club. Well, i`m sorry, but that astounds me. Anybody who invests money in a football club, at this level must know they are on a hiding to nothing. In fact using the word `investment` just isn`t applicable at all.

We are all supporters of this club to varying degrees and we all contribute through the turnstiles and commercial aspects to varying degrees. From ST holders to occasional POTD attendees. But the one thing we should all have in common is the desire to see this club succeed, but more importantly to see it survive.

The one sure-fire way to see the club financially secure is for the club to give up any ambition for success. That`s just not going to happen. I wouldn`t want to watch the club i`ve grown up with and love dearly plodding along in the conference with a ` we`re not going anywhere but it`s ok `cos we`re debt free` attitude.

I`ve held the believe for the past 6 years or so that the advent of SKY is the worst thing that ever happened to the game here. It has flooded the upper levels of the game with exorbitant amounts of money. Lets face it, WHUs` £5M fine is a drop in the ocean that will disappear in the significant obtained from surviving in the PL. A fine of that level would cripple a club like us.

Those extravagent amounts have filtered through to players, agents, management to such a degree that i believe it is not possible for a club like ours to `plan` a charge for the promised land. Yes, we`ve made it back to the second tier, but i honestly believe that it will take all our efforts over the next few years just to consolidate in the CCC and that effort alone will cost us £M`s over the course of a few seasons. We may not like it but that is the envoironment of the game that we as a club now exist in. It`s not SL fault, or CS for that matter. Decisions have and will in the future be made that will hit us, the supporters, in the pocket. It`s the price we will have to pay for success.

In a perfect world that success would come with rewards for fans and in a way it does. But those rewards arn`t and never will be financial. For those that think they should be then unfortunately you are the ones will drift away.

As for the future, who knows ?

I`d like to think that at some point, once we`ve consolidated !!, we will experience that one flukey season that will see us play in the PL. Flukey i hear you say. Yes, flukey, because i believe that for all the talk about how big this club could be the truth of the matter is that unless we `acquire` a Roman Abramovich of our own we will never be able to compete on a regular basis to get promotion to or sustain a period in the PL. I believe we`ve missed the gravy train and playing catch up is going to be nigh on impossible.

So how is all that relevant to this particular debate?

I`d like to think that after all the effort to get here the club can balance the need for success and financial stability and get us on the right footing to see the CCC as our `home` for seasons to come. I think that SL has made a good start in that direction. As i said before, the envoironment is not the boards fault, but now we are here we must be competitive just to stay here.

The fact is there will be casualties along the way. Supporters who will eventually be priced out of watching their team. It`s a sad indictment on the direction the game has taken but that is the way it is. It`s not the clubs fault or SL.

People will say that someone will have to take a stand, lower prices, take a chance that we`ll get bigger attendances etc etc. That`s all very well if you have the finances in place to cover you if it all goes pear-shaped. We havn`t and we need to be competitive. The alternative is to throw the ambition out of the window and we can all pay a fiver a match to watch City in the conference.

PDG

Wow, this is the single most intelligent contribution to the forum I've read for a long time.

[bristolcitysweden]

Ive read god knows how many posts on this topic and to be fair there have been reasonable arguments representing both sides. So here`s my penneth worth.

On a personal note i have already renewed, both mine and my step-daughters, ST. Fortunately i can afford it, but thats not the point. IMO the price rise, while a little high, isn`t entirely unreasonable. I`ll defend that statement a little further down the line. However, i do agree with those who are disappointed that there has been no early bird opportunity for the long term season ticket holders.

A few have been critical of SL and the board in their financial running of the club. Well, i`m sorry, but that astounds me. Anybody who invests money in a football club, at this level must know they are on a hiding to nothing. In fact using the word `investment` just isn`t applicable at all.

We are all supporters of this club to varying degrees and we all contribute through the turnstiles and commercial aspects to varying degrees. From ST holders to occasional POTD attendees. But the one thing we should all have in common is the desire to see this club succeed, but more importantly to see it survive.

The one sure-fire way to see the club financially secure is for the club to give up any ambition for success. That`s just not going to happen. I wouldn`t want to watch the club i`ve grown up with and love dearly plodding along in the conference with a ` we`re not going anywhere but it`s ok `cos we`re debt free` attitude.

I`ve held the believe for the past 6 years or so that the advent of SKY is the worst thing that ever happened to the game here. It has flooded the upper levels of the game with exorbitant amounts of money. Lets face it, WHUs` £5M fine is a drop in the ocean that will disappear in the significant obtained from surviving in the PL. A fine of that level would cripple a club like us.

Those extravagent amounts have filtered through to players, agents, management to such a degree that i believe it is not possible for a club like ours to `plan` a charge for the promised land. Yes, we`ve made it back to the second tier, but i honestly believe that it will take all our efforts over the next few years just to consolidate in the CCC and that effort alone will cost us £M`s over the course of a few seasons. We may not like it but that is the envoironment of the game that we as a club now exist in. It`s not SL fault, or CS for that matter. Decisions have and will in the future be made that will hit us, the supporters, in the pocket. It`s the price we will have to pay for success.

In a perfect world that success would come with rewards for fans and in a way it does. But those rewards arn`t and never will be financial. For those that think they should be then unfortunately you are the ones will drift away.

As for the future, who knows ?

I`d like to think that at some point, once we`ve consolidated !!, we will experience that one flukey season that will see us play in the PL. Flukey i hear you say. Yes, flukey, because i believe that for all the talk about how big this club could be the truth of the matter is that unless we `acquire` a Roman Abramovich of our own we will never be able to compete on a regular basis to get promotion to or sustain a period in the PL. I believe we`ve missed the gravy train and playing catch up is going to be nigh on impossible.

So how is all that relevant to this particular debate?

I`d like to think that after all the effort to get here the club can balance the need for success and financial stability and get us on the right footing to see the CCC as our `home` for seasons to come. I think that SL has made a good start in that direction. As i said before, the envoironment is not the boards fault, but now we are here we must be competitive just to stay here.

The fact is there will be casualties along the way. Supporters who will eventually be priced out of watching their team. It`s a sad indictment on the direction the game has taken but that is the way it is. It`s not the clubs fault or SL.

People will say that someone will have to take a stand, lower prices, take a chance that we`ll get bigger attendances etc etc. That`s all very well if you have the finances in place to cover you if it all goes pear-shaped. We havn`t and we need to be competitive. The alternative is to throw the ambition out of the window and we can all pay a fiver a match to watch City in the conference.

PDG

Wise man.

[kiwicolin]

well two more season tickets have been sold.

we paid for ours yesterday and there was a queue of people waiting to pay for theirs

bring it on

[NickJ]

Ive read god knows how many posts on this topic and to be fair there have been reasonable arguments representing both sides. So here`s my penneth worth.

On a personal note i have already renewed, both mine and my step-daughters, ST. Fortunately i can afford it, but thats not the point. IMO the price rise, while a little high, isn`t entirely unreasonable. I`ll defend that statement a little further down the line. However, i do agree with those who are disappointed that there has been no early bird opportunity for the long term season ticket holders. That is the one thing that the majority are unhappy with, and in my view had the Early Bird been offered, as it has been every other season, or comething similar to it, there would have been very little debate about the price increases.

A few have been critical of SL and the board in their financial running of the club. Well, i`m sorry, but that astounds me. We have every right to be critical of a £10million loss in 5/6 years. Anybody who invests money in a football club, at this level must know they are on a hiding to nothing. In fact using the word `investment` just isn`t applicable at all. We will know the answer to that when the shareholders sell up. In my opinion, they will eventually sell at a tidy profit. That would make it a very good investment. I certainly don't see them selling at a loss. I could be wrong. We shall see.

We are all supporters of this club to varying degrees and we all contribute through the turnstiles and commercial aspects to varying degrees. From ST holders to occasional POTD attendees. But the one thing we should all have in common is the desire to see this club succeed, but more importantly to see it survive.

The one sure-fire way to see the club financially secure is for the club to give up any ambition for success. That`s just not going to happen. I wouldn`t want to watch the club i`ve grown up with and love dearly plodding along in the conference with a ` we`re not going anywhere but it`s ok `cos we`re debt free` attitude.

I`ve held the believe for the past 6 years or so that the advent of SKY is the worst thing that ever happened to the game here. You're not the only one. Its still the same game. The main beneficiaries of Sky have been the players, managers and agents, as you say below, not the fans. It has flooded the upper levels of the game with exorbitant amounts of money. Lets face it, WHUs` £5M fine is a drop in the ocean that will disappear in the significant obtained from surviving in the PL. A fine of that level would cripple a club like us.

Those extravagent amounts have filtered through to players, agents, management to such a degree that i believe it is not possible for a club like ours to `plan` a charge for the promised land. Yes, we`ve made it back to the second tier, but i honestly believe that it will take all our efforts over the next few years just to consolidate in the CCC and that effort alone will cost us £M`s over the course of a few seasons. We may not like it but that is the envoironment of the game that we as a club now exist in. It`s not SL fault, or CS for that matter. Decisions have and will in the future be made that will hit us, the supporters, in the pocket. It`s the price we will have to pay for success. It doesnt have to be like that. The club belongs to us. It should be up to us how it is run. It is very clear the majority of season ticket holders, who have been the backbone of the club over the past 8 years, are unhappy that their loyalty has not been recognized. If we would rather pay slightly less, next season only, that should be up to us.

In a perfect world that success would come with rewards for fans and in a way it does. But those rewards arn`t and never will be financial. For those that think they should be then unfortunately you are the ones will drift away.

As for the future, who knows ?

I`d like to think that at some point, once we`ve consolidated !!, we will experience that one flukey season that will see us play in the PL. Flukey i hear you say. Yes, flukey, because i believe that for all the talk about how big this club could be the truth of the matter is that unless we `acquire` a Roman Abramovich of our own we will never be able to compete on a regular basis to get promotion to or sustain a period in the PL. I believe we`ve missed the gravy train and playing catch up is going to be nigh on impossible. Disagree, for the very reason you have alluded to above. Most of the money which Premiership and Championship clubs have generated over the past few years, they have frittered away on players, managers and agents.

So how is all that relevant to this particular debate?

I`d like to think that after all the effort to get here the club can balance the need for success and financial stability and get us on the right footing to see the CCC as our `home` for seasons to come. I think that SL has made a good start in that direction. As i said before, the envoironment is not the boards fault, but now we are here we must be competitive just to stay here.

The fact is there will be casualties along the way. Supporters who will eventually be priced out of watching their team. It`s a sad indictment on the direction the game has taken but that is the way it is. It`s not the clubs fault or SL. There is no reason why we have to follow every other club. It doesnt have to be like that. People will say that someone will have to take a stand, lower prices, take a chance that we`ll get bigger attendances etc etc. That`s all very well if you have the finances in place to cover you if it all goes pear-shaped. We havn`t and we need to be competitive. The alternative is to throw the ambition out of the window and we can all pay a fiver a match to watch City in the conference. Nobody is suggesting that. All we are saying is that the sudden price hikes are forcing a number of loyal supporters, particularly some with children, to re-consider whether they can afford to watch their team next season. I am fortunate not to be in that category, but it is not something I am at all comfortable with. I fully appreciate why the club have increased the prices with none of the usual loyalty discounts, and I do think they thought they were acting in the interests of the club in doing so. I just think they've got it wrong. The price increases are ok, but the loyalty discounts should have been offered. Next season, everybody would be paying the new prices and, having had a year to get used to it, there would probably have been no complaints.

PDG

The debate on here has shown what a very complex issue this is. Its not just about our season ticket prices next season, there is a bigger picture, which you have identified, being the way the game has developed and the inevitability of certain fans being priced out to be replaced by a certain other type of fan. But does it have to be that way?

I have spoken to a fair few people who have bought season tickets next season for the first time. Some of them used to go regularly anyway. But some rarely bothered before, other than the very big games. Of course we want the club to sell as many tickets as possible, but I think there is an element of perverse resentment that they are jumping on the bandwagon, when they have previously shown little interest in the club, and are able to do so at the same price as the loyal supporters of the last 8 years.

[Chappers]

Spme very good points, but the problem is that this continuous spend to compete is unsustainable for most Clubs. As has been proved in the past, if you spend beyond your means, it eventually catches up with you. And even if you hit the Prem, the choice is either invest (Or fritter away cash paying over the odds) or take the monery and run, as Watford have. And football fans are not a bottomless pit of money-

Wages are generally rising slowly

Housing is becoming unaffordable

Utility bills, transport etc. are going up fast

Unemployment is rising (Out-sourcing/ cheap alternative labour source)

Taxes will rise (This PFI nonsense is like paying off your mortgage by using a credit card)

Will Sky continue paying over the odds, apart from big games, do they get the required viewing figures?

Will the Euro-League finally happen?

At some point the Clubs will have to start running more sensibly, and if that means players lowering their demands if they want to find a Club, then the sooner the better.