Midfield Sitting Too Deep

[Red_Mat]

I've thought for a while now that one of the reasons we are struggling to get good service up to Trundle or Byfield, is that our midfield is sitting too deep. I think the reason for this is that we have two players, Johnson (who sits just in front of the back four and tries to pick out the passes) and Elliott (who tends to drop deep and pick the ball up off of Carey or Fontaine).

What this means is that there is then a big gap between them and LT or DB. This in turn either draws the strikers back, leaving no-one up front; pulls Sproule and McIndoe inside, leaving no width; or means we hit long balls over the midfield (usually what LJ does). And as we've seen, LT and DB don't deal with long balls all that well...

When we've played wih Noble in a 4-4-1-1, he fills that gap and it's meant we have someone to pick the ball up from defence and link up with the attack.

The question, therefore, is do we really need two central midfielders sitting deep? The thing is, yes, if the first one is LJ. A sitting midfielder needs two skills; good distribution and the ability to tackle.

His distribution when playing with DN is usually good. However, he doesn't do the other job a sitting midfielder needs to do very well, which is tackle. Now, if he could do this, like Doherty could do in his prime or like Skuse can do, he would be superb. However, because he can't tackle, it means ME has to drop back to clear up when the ball is lost.

If we allowed ME or CS to sit in front of the back four alone, and pushed DN up to help bolster the forwards, to link the defence to attack, I think we'd be a much better team.

I wonder if GJ has it in his mind at the moment, that we still need to be a defensive side so therefore two deep midfielders, instead of one is a better thing...

[tin]

I actually think the central midfield pairing leave far too much room between them and the back four.

Elliott's all over the place (in a good way) and LJ is dreadful defensively leaving Marvin having to do most of the his defensive work as well. It's inevitable that gaps will appear if those two don't work as a team as it will throw the rest of the team out of sync.

As I said in the summer, I think we seriously need to look at getting a quality partner in for Elliott to give him a bit of support then he can get on with doing his Vieira-like job.

[Roe]

Is that quality partner for Elliot not just David Noble?

Look at all the times we've played really well under Gary Johnson and who our best players were?

Southampton, Sheffield United, Stoke, Norwich, Middlesborough last season, Rotherham .. who was our best player, our playmaker? None other than David Noble, the guy who gets 15 bloody minutes against Leicester because Lee Johnson plays instead!

Also I don't really understand why Trundle got taken off after an hour when he was one of our best players. He created our best chance (when he hit the bar) all by himself and constantly set players up in the second half then Johnson decided to take him off and bring Enoch on. I also think the reason we let a second goal in was because he took off Brian Wilson instead of Lee Johnson.

[bh_red]

I actually think the central midfield pairing leave far too much room between them and the back four.

Elliott's all over the place (in a good way) and LJ is dreadful defensively leaving Marvin having to do most of the his defensive work as well. It's inevitable that gaps will appear if those two don't work as a team as it will throw the rest of the team out of sync.

As I said in the summer, I think we seriously need to look at getting a quality partner in for Elliott to give him a bit of support then he can get on with doing his Vieira-like job.

DISAGREE AND AGREE, in the summer we definatly needed a defensive minded midfielder such as Elliott, however it was also very important to give the current players such as Noble and Johnson the chance to perform at this level, unfortunatly neither Johnson or Noble can seem to fully operate succesfully in a 2man midfield alongside Elliott and both only really excel when playing together alongside Elliott, which means generally having to play 4-5-1, which to me is a very negative formation, personally think Noble is the better of the 2, however neither is good enough if we really want to progress in this league.

we need to get a quality creative central midfielder who can put a foot in if needed, but mainly can attack the ball, take control of midfield and is actually some sort of goal threat and is actually going to be fit.

Noble's biggest problem seems to be more about his fitness in that even when fully fit he seems incapable of lasting 90mins.

[Roe]

DISAGREE AND AGREE, in the summer we definatly needed a defensive minded midfielder such as Elliott, however it was also very important to give the current players such as Noble and Johnson the chance to perform at this level, unfortunatly neither Johnson or Noble can seem to fully operate succesfully in a 2man midfield alongside Elliott and both only really excel when playing together alongside Elliott, which means generally having to play 4-5-1, which to me is a very negative formation, personally think Noble is the better of the 2, however neither is good enough if we really want to progress in this league.

we need to get a quality creative central midfielder who can put a foot in if needed, but mainly can attack the ball, take control of midfield and is actually some sort of goal threat and is actually going to be fit.

Noble's biggest problem seems to be more about his fitness in that even when fully fit he seems incapable of lasting 90mins.

"Unfortunately neither Johnson or Noble can seem to fully operate successfully in a 2 man midfield and both only really excel when playing alongside Elliott?" Sorry but when has Noble ever played along side just Elliott? It's a straight swap for me, no need to **** about with different formations just to fit Lee Johnson in. Also they guy you described in your second to last paragraph is the perfect description of Noble.

Noble's fitness is no problem. I think if you believe that you'll believe anything. I think a lot of people are forgetting who it was that actually finished the job of getting promotion for us last season.. Noble!

[Red_Mat]

Is that quality partner for Elliot not just David Noble?

Look at all the times we've played really well under Gary Johnson and who our best players were?

Southampton, Sheffield United, Stoke, Norwich, Middlesborough last season, Rotherham .. who was our best player, our playmaker? None other than David Noble, the guy who gets 15 bloody minutes against Leicester because Lee Johnson plays instead!

Also I don't really understand why Trundle got taken off after an hour when he was one of our best players. He created our best chance (when he hit the bar) all by himself and constantly set players up in the second half then Johnson decided to take him off and bring Enoch on. I also think the reason we let a second goal in was because he took off Brian Wilson instead of Lee Johnson.

Yep, totally agree. DN is the man to play alongside ME - the only worry for me is how often it is he gets injured! He really needs to improve his fitness to cement a place in the side.

Do you know why it is I think Gary keeps LJ on? I remember him saying last season he keeps him on because when we're losing, LJ is always prone to do something special and out of the ordinary to win the game...

So why the heck did he take off LT?!? Surely he's far more likely to provide something special to win the game than LJ. I only remember him doing that once with an equalising goal in the last few minutes last season.

Plus, we were losing on Saturday, so why take off a striker and bring on a midielder?! We need to move up the pitch, not back.

[Red_Mat]

"Unfortunately neither Johnson or Noble can seem to fully operate successfully in a 2 man midfield and both only really excel when playing alongside Elliott?" Sorry but when has Noble ever played along side just Elliott? It's a straight swap for me, no need to **** about with different formations just to fit Lee Johnson in. Also they guy you described in your second to last paragraph is the perfect description of Noble.

Noble's fitness is no problem. I think if you believe that you'll believe anything. I think a lot of people are forgetting who it was that actually finished the job of getting promotion for us last season.. Noble!

Exactly, Noble's not been given a chance in a four man midfield. I think him operating alongside Elliott has to be the option we look at next in midfield.

[Roe]

Yep you're dead right mate. I haven't been able to understand Johnson's subs for a while now.

I'm not knocking Gary Johnson because he's a brilliant motivator, plays football the right way and has built a good team in a year but some of the decisions he makes are bizarre.

[Nibor]

Yep you're dead right mate. I haven't been able to understand Johnson's subs for a while now.

I'm not knocking Gary Johnson because he's a brilliant motivator, plays football the right way and has built a good team in a year but some of the decisions he makes are bizarre.

The bizarre ones may well be the ones where we don't know the underlying reasons.

I disagree with you about Noble's fitness. It obviously has been a problem when he's broken down in most of the games he started and been subbed out of breath in the others. That may well be why he's not in the first XI right now.

I'd like to see him given a go in the middle with Elliott though as he is a very good player who doesn't give away possession and can pass accurately.

[bh_red]

"Unfortunately neither Johnson or Noble can seem to fully operate successfully in a 2 man midfield and both only really excel when playing alongside Elliott?" Sorry but when has Noble ever played along side just Elliott? It's a straight swap for me, no need to **** about with different formations just to fit Lee Johnson in. Also they guy you described in your second to last paragraph is the perfect description of Noble.

Noble's fitness is no problem. I think if you believe that you'll believe anything. I think a lot of people are forgetting who it was that actually finished the job of getting promotion for us last season.. Noble!

Great, he scored 2 goals in the last game of the season, if it hadn't been him it would have been someone else.

granted he hasn't played in a 2 man midfield with Elliott, however he couldn't do the same thing last season in a to man midfield with similar/lesser players in skuse and russell.

the point is, bringing Noble in means a change of formation, Noble's fitness is the constant problem is inability to last 90mins, his lack of any pace, (johnson is quick than him despite being a midget) his lack of complete lack of goal threat 6 goals in nearly 60 games just isn't good enough (same can be said out LJ)

don't get me wrong, I'd probably pick Noble over Johnson if I had to, but the basic facts are that neither of them are good enough for a team that actually wants to push for promotion in this divsion.

[bh_red]

Do you know why it is I think Gary keeps LJ on? I remember him saying last season he keeps him on because when we're losing, LJ is always prone to do something special and out of the ordinary to win the game...

it's a fair point to be honest, just had a quick look at football league website, according to those stats

http://www.football-league.premiumtv.co.uk...0610327,00.html

Lee Johnson - 12 assists

David Noble - 1 assist

doesn't that say alot?

also looking at this season

McIndoe - 3

Sproule - 3

Elliott - 2

Johnson - 1

Noble - 1

[Roe]

Great, he scored 2 goals in the last game of the season, if it hadn't been him it would have been someone else.

granted he hasn't played in a 2 man midfield with Elliott, however he couldn't do the same thing last season in a to man midfield with similar/lesser players in skuse and russell.

the point is, bringing Noble in means a change of formation, Noble's fitness is the constant problem is inability to last 90mins, his lack of any pace, (johnson is quick than him despite being a midget) his lack of complete lack of goal threat 6 goals in nearly 60 games just isn't good enough (same can be said out LJ)

don't get me wrong, I'd probably pick Noble over Johnson if I had to, but the basic facts are that neither of them are good enough for a team that actually wants to push for promotion in this divsion.

You've got to be joking right?

If it wasn't him it would've been someone else? What sort of an answer is that? That's like saying Gerrard's goal against Newcastle wasn't very good because if he didn't do it someone else "might" have.

When did Noble play in a 2 man midfield alongside Skuse or Russell last season? From what I can remember it was Johnson in the middle all the time.

[Red_Mat]

Great, he scored 2 goals in the last game of the season, if it hadn't been him it would have been someone else.

granted he hasn't played in a 2 man midfield with Elliott, however he couldn't do the same thing last season in a to man midfield with similar/lesser players in skuse and russell.

the point is, bringing Noble in means a change of formation, Noble's fitness is the constant problem is inability to last 90mins, his lack of any pace, (johnson is quick than him despite being a midget) his lack of complete lack of goal threat 6 goals in nearly 60 games just isn't good enough (same can be said out LJ)

don't get me wrong, I'd probably pick Noble over Johnson if I had to, but the basic facts are that neither of them are good enough for a team that actually wants to push for promotion in this divsion.

I think to say someone else would have scored Noble's goals if he hadn't, is a gross underestimation. He was superb when he came back towards the end of last season, creating and scoring some crucial goals. The first goal against Rotherham I can't see many players at the club doing at that time. It's not just his technical ability, but his positional sense and his knowledge of those around him. Some of his passes that have Byfield in so far this season for shots have been sublime.

It does mean a slight attacking change of formation, pushing the midfield slightly further forward, but it's not massive. I agree, though, there is a slight concern with his fitness.

But let's be honest, have we ever seen LJ sprint for 90 mins? Let's rephrase that, have we ever seen LJ sprint...?!?

[Roe]

Sorry but 1 assist in 20 games isn't really good enough for a midfielder that plays 90 minutes of every game and takes all free kicks and corners? I think I'd get a lot of assists if I did that as well.

[bh_red]

Sorry but 1 assist in 20 games isn't really good enough for a midfielder that plays 90 minutes of every game and takes all free kicks and corners? I think I'd get a lot of assists if I did that as well.

who's played 20 games this season?

[Roe]

who's played 20 games this season?

Lee Johnson? Well ok he's probably played 18 I think.

[bh_red]

When did Noble play in a 2 man midfield alongside Skuse or Russell last season? From what I can remember it was Johnson in the middle all the time.

just off the top of my head, how about the start of the last season? before LJ was signed? fairly sure first 3 games, it was Skuse/Noble combo?

[bh_red]

Lee Johnson? Well ok he's probably played 18 I think.

16 league games.

but that's beside the point, my point is LONG-TERM

neither of them are good enough for what we are trying to achive, both have to many flaw's in their game,

Johnson - tackling, goal threat, too flashy not consitant enough

Noble - pace, fitness, goal threat, tackling

[Roe]

Yes, before Lee Johnson was signed. Sorry but 3 games at the start of the season is hardly a decent run in the team. Last season we struggled exactly the same as we are now (losing to Cheltenham and Bradford) until Johnson decided to put Noble in the team consistently. Now at the moment in the level we're in we can't have someone who isn't doing anything good for the team playing all the time. It's just not fair and isn't helping the team at all.

[Roe]

I don't think Noble's pace is an issue to be honest. It's the same with Lee Trundle. I can't see why people are criticising them for not having "pace". What do we want? A team of good players or a team that can run fast? Also Noble is definately a goal threat if you play him in the right position more often that not.

[Red_Mat]

I don't think Noble's pace is an issue to be honest. It's the same with Lee Trundle. I can't see why people are criticising them for not having "pace". What do we want? A team of good players or a team that can run fast? Also Noble is definately a goal threat if you play him in the right position more often that not.

Yes, exactly. We have players such as Sproule, McIndoe and Byfield who have pace. Trundle and Noble are players who like it played to feet and play their passes to feet as well. They are in the side for different jobs than to run after hopeless, lost causes all day. Let Ivan do that - he's superb at it!

[tin]

Yes, exactly. We have players such as Sproule, McIndoe and Byfield who have pace. Trundle and Noble are players who like it played to feet and play their passes to feet as well. They are in the side for different jobs than to run after hopeless, lost causes all day. Let Ivan do that - he's superb at it!

Agreed. It's worth us all remembering that we're yet to witness Nobe's and Trundle in the same team and I have a feeling that those two are on a similar wavelength. Noble should be first choice partner for Elliott but we all know that won't happen unless there's an injury or suspension and I'd be very surprised if LJ got injured because he doesn't put himself on the line like the others do.

Give 4-4-2 a go, Nobe's and Elliott in middle, Sproule and McIndoe hugging the touchline's and Trundle with byfield upfront. I think that's our best attacking unit personally...

[boadle]

it's a fair point to be honest, just had a quick look at football league website, according to those stats

http://www.football-league.premiumtv.co.uk...0610327,00.html

Lee Johnson - 12 assists

David Noble - 1 assist

doesn't that say alot?

This says more:

http://www.football-league.premiumtv.co.uk...0710327,00.html

1 assist so far THIS season. 12 games in.

[bh_red]

This says more:

http://www.football-league.premiumtv.co.uk...0710327,00.html

1 assist so far THIS season. 12 games in.

:noexpression: how about you read the rest of that posting that you have just quoted where it says exactly what you have posted?

[Gaffer]

it's a fair point to be honest, just had a quick look at football league website, according to those stats

http://www.football-league.premiumtv.co.uk...0610327,00.html

Lee Johnson - 12 assists

David Noble - 1 assist

doesn't that say alot?

also looking at this season

McIndoe - 3

Sproule - 3

Elliott - 2

Johnson - 1

Noble - 1

Mate, facts just wont do on this forum!

You're quite right though, LJ created a lot of our goals last year, and will have a partial hand in the goals at sheff weds and at home to west brom. To dismiss this is just folly by the typical LJ bashers. The point is, LJ is on a poor run of form at the minute, but you can see why Gary continues with him.

The poster who listed Noble's best games surely realises that ALL of those games came from his position in the hole. But why let facts get in the way of a witch hunt! We will surely buy a midfielder in January, in which case LJ's position will become under immence threat, but until we have an alternative he is the best we have.

[boadle]

:noexpression: how about you read the rest of that posting that you have just quoted where it says exactly what you have posted?

How about I just sneak away quietly with my tail between my legs?

[Nibor]

Mate, facts just wont do on this forum!

You're quite right though, LJ created a lot of our goals last year, and will have a partial hand in the goals at sheff weds and at home to west brom. To dismiss this is just folly by the typical LJ bashers. The point is, LJ is on a poor run of form at the minute, but you can see why Gary continues with him.

I made the point many times last season about LJ's assists. They appear to be pretty much non existant so far this season however hence the questions about what exactly he's bringing to the side being so off form.

The poster who listed Noble's best games surely realises that ALL of those games came from his position in the hole. But why let facts get in the way of a witch hunt! We will surely buy a midfielder in January, in which case LJ's position will become under immence threat, but until we have an alternative he is the best we have.

Noble played very well in the middle of the park too many times, it was simply longer ago and the results less memorable than a cup run and promotion.

[Roe]

We will surely buy a midfielder in January, in which case LJ's position will become under immence threat, but until we have an alternative he is the best we have.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. We've got a perfectly good midfielder in David Noble that he won't play because Lee Johnson plays instead. I highly doubt that he'll bring in another midfielder and shove Lee aside. Not going to happen mate.

[Gaffer]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. We've got a perfectly good midfielder in David Noble that he won't play because Lee Johnson plays instead. I highly doubt that he'll bring in another midfielder and shove Lee aside. Not going to happen mate.

Disagree entirely. We might, but, GARY JOHNSON DOES NOT SEE DAVID NOBLE AS A MIDFIELDER! Noble doesn't play because he has a poor fitness record and has no additional skills over and above LJ, in a midfield role. As i keep saying, please come back to me when Noble plays in midfield in a 4-4-2.

Also, i think a midfielder will definitely be joining in January. This is an area where we are severely lacking. Probably only LJ, Elliott and Skuse can play there. With Keogh and Russell seemingly coming to the end of their city careers, central midfield is an obvious position to strength.

[old_man_terry]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. We've got a perfectly good midfielder in David Noble that he won't play because Lee Johnson plays instead. I highly doubt that he'll bring in another midfielder and shove Lee aside. Not going to happen mate.

Noble's problem is fitness though, he's not capable of lasting a full 90mins even when fully fit (which isn't very often) plus he has a severe lack of pace and at this level that has stuck out,

Getting a Creative Central Midfielder to play alongside Elliott in during the window is probably the most important signing we need. it is the main weakness in midfield