What Happened To The 'carey Might Not Be Playing' Thread?

[WesM]

As you know, Madger, I am not someone who jumps on any passing bandwagon attacking mods. Nevertheless, however grateful we may be for the time that you and they give, that does not mean their actions should be above scrutiny and, if necessary, condemnation, especially when an issue at the very core of what this forum is about is at stake.

So let me get this clear: Despite nothing in the forum rules stating this to be the case, moderators on this independent forum now take it upon themselves to decide what is and is not in the club's interests - or what Gary Johnson would or would not like to see on here - and then censor or otherwise as they deem appropriate, according to what they think the club would want? That is what has happened here.

Which brings up a number of different problems. For starters, if the moderator concerned was aware that the post regarding Louis Carey was sensitive then that must mean he was aware it was accurate, as opposed to all the other posts on here about player injuries, transfers etc which are not. So how did he know? Was it more widely known that Carey was unlikely to be fit (in which case, there's even less reason to delete it), did someone at the club tell him and ask him to remove it (in which case he is bowing to pressure from the club and we can forget about any pretence that it is independent) or did he check with the club to see whether it was accurate? I would really like to know the answer to that.

Frankly, as stated elsewhere, if anyone on here seriously thinks that opposing teams are going to somehow pick their team or tactics based on whether a poster on here suggests one of the players may or may not be fit, then they are deluding themselves. If it were on an official website, then that's different. But this is an independent forum for fans, and they should be allowed to discuss what they want - not just what moderators want - provided it does not break the rules.

The fact remains that a poster has had a post deleted which did not break any of the forum rules, simply because a moderator would rather not see it up there. That is censorship, it is as straightforward as that. I would like to hear from Fatman as to whether he stands by his decision, and if so then why. If it is judged that accurate posts can or cannot appear on this forum according to what "Gary Johnson would or would not like" then we might as well pull the plug. Certainly, if this is the case then I'll be off. I've never threatened to leave the forum before in my ten-odd years on it, but I won't have a moderator judging whether to allow my posts to stand based on whether he thinks the club will like it or not, or whether - in his view - my post is to the good of the club. That is not an independent forum. It is a simpering slave of the club, and I won't be part of it.

RedTop,

I must point out here that I was not the Moderator who deleted Gaffers original post. My reply to him near the top of this thread contains my opinion as to why the thread may have been pulled. Surely my moderator status doesn't excuse me from an opinion the same as it doesn't absolve me from ever being totally wrong. If my viewpoint appalls you then I can only apologize for that, but I have nothing else to be sorry about.

Kind regards.

[Ian M]

TO THE MODS- This isnt aimed as a pop at you personally, so please don't take it as such. I assure you, I am very appreciative of the time and effort you put in to keep this place running smoothly. I for one, wouldnt want that job of having to be 'on' 24 hours a day, reading all the crap posted here. I doff my cap to you all.

BUT- This decision to delete a thread that has been proven true is absolutely wrong in terms of freedom of speech. I can totally understand your reasons for doing so. You didnt want the opponents to gain an advantage, thats a noble ideology. The thing is, removing the right to post your thoughts about this club is a very dangerous step. especially one that isnt abusive and has proved to be right. The Mod concerned has decided that the (possible) advantage to an opponent is more important than one of the most important values of the free world? Get real please!! You ask any person that fought in WWII, whats more important. Communism ran on a similar vein, and that went really well too, didnt it?

The forum users that have and do adhere to the rules of this forum should be appalled by this, as we are now being told that although this is an independent forum, funded by the fans through contributions to the ST, we will be moderated by the best interests of the club. Surely this cant be right?

I don't normally post about the forum in general, because as I said earlier, I really do admire the work put in by the Mods/Admin to keep this place running. Its a tough, thankless task I wouldnt/couldnt do myself. but this is an unacceptable position to take, and if this continues, I will, like Redtop, remove my user status to this forum.

:disapointed2se:

(Incidently, this thread is against the forum rules).

Right, clearly we have been foundto have acted wrongly to delete the posting.

I will therefore terminate my account so that others needn't.

I trust this action will put this matter to bed and the rest of you can start supporting the team who have done a brilliant job so far this season in getting the club into an excellent league position.

My final act will be to put on record my thanks and appreciation to Gary Johnson who I believe will prove himself to be the finest manager we've had in the post-war era.

[RED4LIFE]

As you know, Madger, I am not someone who jumps on any passing bandwagon attacking mods. Nevertheless, however grateful we may be for the time that you and they give, that does not mean their actions should be above scrutiny and, if necessary, condemnation, especially when a fundamental principle at the very core of what this forum is about is at stake.

So let me get this clear: Despite nothing in the forum rules stating this to be the case, moderators on this independent forum now take it upon themselves to decide what is and is not in the club's interests - or what Gary Johnson would or would not like to see on here - and then censor or otherwise as they deem appropriate, according to what they think the club would want? That is what has happened here.

Which brings up a number of different problems. For starters, if the moderator concerned was aware that the post regarding Louis Carey was sensitive then that must mean he was aware it was accurate, as opposed to all the other posts on here about player injuries, transfers etc which are not. So how did he know? Was it more widely known that Carey was unlikely to be fit (in which case, there's even less reason to delete it), did someone at the club tell him and ask him to remove it (in which case he is bowing to pressure from the club and we can forget about any pretence that it is independent) or did he check with the club to see whether it was accurate? I would really like to know the answer to that.

Frankly, as stated elsewhere, if anyone on here seriously thinks that opposing teams are going to somehow pick their team or tactics based on whether a poster on here suggests one of the players may or may not be fit, then they are deluding themselves. If it were on an official website, then that's different. But this is an independent forum for fans, and they should be allowed to discuss what they want - not just what moderators want - provided it does not break the rules.

The fact remains that a poster has had a post deleted which did not break any of the forum rules, simply because a moderator would rather not see it up there. That is censorship, it is as straightforward as that. I would like to hear from Fatman as to whether he stands by his decision, and if so then why. If it is judged that accurate posts can or cannot appear on this forum according to what "Gary Johnson would or would not like" then we might as well pull the plug. Certainly, if this is the case then I'll be off. I've never threatened to leave the forum before in my ten-odd years on it, but I won't have a moderator judging whether to allow my posts to stand based on whether he thinks the club will like it or not, or whether - in his view - my post is to the good of the club. That is not an independent forum. It is a fawning slave of the club, and I won't be part of it.

Absolutely correct in every sense. Those last few sentences are what I was trying to say exactly (how I wish I was a journalist for a career!!).

Redtop, I back your views 100%, and I also take the stance of deleting my username if the position of the Admin/Mods is continued in this vein.

A principle right of all the people of this country is freedom of speech, unless it threatens National Security, and this isnt a matter of National Security.

[dezgimed]

All this fuss because someone had a hissy fit because they couldn't return from the game and say ''I told you so''.

Mods can, and do whatever they want, whether fair or not.

Accept it or find another forum, is what's often said to me!

[RED4LIFE]

(Incidently, this thread is against the forum rules).

Right, clearly we have been foundto have acted wrongly to delete the posting.

I will therefore terminate my account so that others needn't.

I trust this action will put this matter to bed and the rest of you can start supporting the team who have done a brilliant job so far this season in getting the club into an excellent league position.

My final act will be to put on record my thanks and appreciation to Gary Johnson who I believe will prove himself to be the finest manager we've had in the post-war era.

Madger, please don't do this. No one has asked you to do this, and it really does seem an extreme course of action. Please re-register as you are a valued poster on this forum. If it was your decision to delete that thread, then why not just admit to an over-reaction to it? Again, no one is asking for an apology or anything like that, just people pointing out that it seemed a strange thing to do, when looking at the big picture.

I only stated that I would delete my account if this type of moderation continued (and I stand by that), not if the person responsible didnt delete their account.

[Maesknoll Red]

So, someone has made a judgement, I think it was the wrong one, but there were several reports asking for the thread to be deleted, I'm glad some of you have never made a wrong call, I'm glad every word ever printed in the Sun is true.

I'm so tempted to press the button, but I guess the Supporters Trust and Tom wouldn't be too pleased........

How about we discuss the issue without being such drama queens.

[Gaffer]

I have got to speak in favour of the mods - this is common sense, not underhanded censorship.

If you know the gaffer's posts, you will know that he does socialise with City players, i.e he has mentioned speaking with Ivan Sproule on many occasions, and he has also come up with some other little nuggets of info.

So, it is plausible to believe his posts are more then just the general speculation of the unknowing masses, and infact, a representation of true knowledge - which could aid a rival club, if the content was read.

I don't feel there is anything wrong with removing a thread that could give away team information, as this forum is hardly hidden from rival clubs is it?

Firstly, i just want to apologise for all the fuss my topic has created, i think 'snowballed' would be the most appropriate seasonal adjective to use.

I was bored on a christmas eve afternoon, and after finding out some important news regarding a big game of ours, thought i'd share it amoungst friends. The actual post was trying to engineer some debate about which back four to play, as well as whether we ever do well without our inspriational captain. To clear up my personal position, i am just a fan like the rest of you guys! I have no link with any players, other than Louis and Ivan, largely due to locallity. I believe, unless the lads tell me otherwise, that some of the things are fascinating and i'm sure people are interested, hence why i posted.

I will not be posting anything regarding team selections before the game or official announcments on the website from now on. I did not think that i would cause any debate on whether these types of posts are allowed. I apologise to those i offended. The very last thing i want to see is respected posters like RedTop et al threaten to leave, or excellent mods like fatman and madger take the flack.

Please can we draw a line and move on. We have a team to be proud of, and perhaps with our own 'code of conduct' not to post things damaging to the team, we can get back to some proper debate. For example, LJ was miles better than Elliott today...

Stace.

[Bristol Boy]

As you know, Madger, I am not someone who jumps on any passing bandwagon attacking mods. Nevertheless, however grateful we may be for the time that you and they give, that does not mean their actions should be above scrutiny and, if necessary, condemnation, especially when a fundamental principle at the very core of what this forum is about is at stake.

So let me get this clear: Despite nothing in the forum rules stating this to be the case, moderators on this independent forum now take it upon themselves to decide what is and is not in the club's interests - or what Gary Johnson would or would not like to see on here - and then censor or otherwise as they deem appropriate, according to what they think the club would want? That is what has happened here.

Which brings up a number of different problems. For starters, if the moderator concerned was aware that the post regarding Louis Carey was sensitive then that must mean he was aware it was accurate, as opposed to all the other posts on here about player injuries, transfers etc which are not. So how did he know? Was it more widely known that Carey was unlikely to be fit (in which case, there's even less reason to delete it), did someone at the club tell him and ask him to remove it (in which case he is bowing to pressure from the club and we can forget about any pretence that it is independent) or did he check with the club to see whether it was accurate? I would really like to know the answer to that.

Frankly, as stated elsewhere, if anyone on here seriously thinks that opposing teams are going to somehow pick their team or tactics based on whether a poster on here suggests one of the players may or may not be fit, then they are deluding themselves. If it were on an official website, then that's different. But this is an independent forum for fans, and they should be allowed to discuss what they want - not just what moderators want - provided it does not break the rules.

The fact remains that a poster has had a post deleted which did not break any of the forum rules, simply because a moderator would rather not see it up there. That is censorship, it is as straightforward as that. I would like to hear from Fatman as to whether he stands by his decision, and if so then why. If it is judged that accurate posts can or cannot appear on this forum according to what "Gary Johnson would or would not like" then we might as well pull the plug. Certainly, if this is the case then I'll be off. I've never threatened to leave the forum before in my ten-odd years on it, but I won't have a moderator judging whether to allow my posts to stand based on whether he thinks the club will like it or not, or whether - in his view - my post is to the good of the club. That is not an independent forum. It is a fawning slave of the club, and I won't be part of it.

Hear, Hear Regretfully, this is not a one off.

I had a post edited that was in no way offensive, without my being told.It was actually in reply to a thread about the EE of all things! I didn't make a song and dance of it on here however I did complain to Mods & Admin via PM.

One part of what has happened at AG in recent times that disquietens me is that there would appear to be a mindset that says "If you disagree with anything we say, even if you agree with 99%, you are negative and a club hater"

Now, that may well work in the dressing room but it won't wash with thousands of fans, many of whom have been here for decades and many of whom, are highly intelligent people &/Or experienced businessmen.

Criticism is a fact of life in The Premiership and even top managers like Benitiez get a grilling every day on Sky never mind the Fans Forum!!

Free speech is just that and the debate that this Forum engenders is normally healthy although certain posts have overstepped the mark in the past (not this one) and have rightly been removed.Anything libelous should also be removed and unauthorised links, however, honest criticism and speculation is fair enough.

Even the local newspaper has to watch it's P&Q's in order that it isn't seen as anti-club.

[Gaffer]

All this fuss because someone had a hissy fit because they couldn't return from the game and say ''I told you so''.

Mods can, and do whatever they want, whether fair or not.

Accept it or find another forum, is what's often said to me!

I didn't start this thread. Read the thread properly if you're going to have a go at me!!

[dezgimed]

I didn't start this thread. Read the thread properly if you're going to have a go at me!!

You're right, I do appologise for that!

Just the quote below was a tad irritating. I don't think you were the only person to think West Brom would make us struggle.

Anyway, it was my thread that has mysteriously been deleted. As you know now, Carey missed the game with an achilles complaint and is doubtful for the Burnley trip. The thread also stated that i thought we'd really struggle against the movement of the West Brom forwards without him, which was definitely in evidence this afternoon.

[RedTop]

RedTop,

I must point out here that I was not the Moderator who deleted Gaffers original post. My reply to him near the top of this thread contains my opinion as to why the thread may have been pulled. Surely my moderator status doesn't excuse me from an opinion the same as it doesn't absolve me from ever being totally wrong. If my viewpoint appalls you then I can only apologize for that, but I have nothing else to be sorry about.

Kind regards.

Fatman, my apologies for misreading your original post. Of course moderator status does not and should not prevent people stating their opinions - if it did then no-one at all would do it. And obviously all opinions on the very fundamental topic of what should and should not be deleted from this forum is something everyone should be allowed to state a view on - not least moderators!

I assume from the actions of Madger - who is extremely intelligent and decent, and whom I have obviously always had a lot of admiration for having had the good fortune to share laugh and a pint or two with him on numerous occasions, -that he either deleted the post or is taking responsibility for it. In his post he states that the moderators acted "wrongly" in deleting the post. I take this to mean that the forum will not in future delete posts simply because they are an inconvenience to the club or that Gary Johnson would rather they were not there. That is all that I was seeking to establish, because I felt a fundamental principle of this independent forum was at stake. If the moderators wish to change the rules, then that should be debated on here and any alteration made clear so that members are clear that they are not posting on an independent forum.

While I consider the incident closed in light of Madger's reply, it should also go without saying that I do not think he needed to quit as a result of this incident. Moderators are obviously not super-human and - like referees - we all expect them to make mistakes from time to time. While we surely have a right to question their decisions when we believe a wrong decision has been taken, that doesn't mean they should have to stand down or that we are ungrateful for the time they give. If Ian chooses not to come back then this forum will be worse off without him posting, quite apart from him moderating. Although I feel passionate about protecting the right to free speech on this forum, I also feel very upset at having been part of the reason Ian - someone whose opinions I have always valued - has left, because the forum always needs articulate and passionate posters and he has been prominent among them for many years. I will miss his views and hope he reconsiders.

[Maesknoll Red]

Firstly, i just want to apologise for all the fuss my topic has created, i think 'snowballed' would be the most appropriate seasonal adjective to use.

I was bored on a christmas eve afternoon, and after finding out some important news regarding a big game of ours, thought i'd share it amoungst friends. The actual post was trying to engineer some debate about which back four to play, as well as whether we ever do well without our inspriational captain. To clear up my personal position, i am just a fan like the rest of you guys! I have no link with any players, other than Louis and Ivan, largely due to locallity. I believe, unless the lads tell me otherwise, that some of the things are fascinating and i'm sure people are interested, hence why i posted.

I will not be posting anything regarding team selections before the game or official announcments on the website from now on. I did not think that i would cause any debate on whether these types of posts are allowed. I apologise to those i offended. The very last thing i want to see is respected posters like RedTop et al threaten to leave, or excellent mods like fatman and madger take the flack.

Please can we draw a line and move on. We have a team to be proud of, and perhaps with our own 'code of conduct' not to post things damaging to the team, we can get back to some proper debate. For example, LJ was miles better than Elliott today...

Stace.

If you are an aquaintance of the players, then by all means carry on posting the bits and pieces of news they give you, if you are a best friend and confidant, then perhaps be selective.

I doubt if the information would have altered any aspect of WBA's tactics, I'm sure they'll win the league anyway.

It would be a sad day if leaks and titbits of news stopped filtering through via this (or any other) forum.

[Maesknoll Red]

I assume from the actions of Madger - who is extremely intelligent and decent, and whom I have obviously always had a lot of admiration for having had the good fortune to share laugh and a pint or two with him on numerous occasions, -that he either deleted the post or is taking responsibility for it.

I can assure you that Madger did not delete the post and that should be the end to any conjecture who did, the fact that it was done by someone, who, IMO, thought they were doing the right thing for the team, I doubt it will be the last harshly deleted post on here, but I sincerely believe there was no censorship intended.

I'll reinstate the topic now, as the original poster wants the back four to be discussed, lets hope it brings forth some decent debate.

[Pilnin]

I heard Brooker picked up a knock in training and is a doubt for the game at Burnley.

Just you wait.

[Lordofthebling]

What a stupid thread. ...and that is not an attack on the posters or the mods.

What clearly happened is a poor judgement call, but the mods should not be above critisism. If instead of dwelling on what has happend, lets look forward - If a post or thread is deleted, maybe in future, the topic title and thread are still visible, but when you open it - a reason for deletion is stated. Thus avoiding the "where is my...", "what happend..." type threads. If the mods opinion is final, then we know what rule is broken and move on. However, with any position of responsibility - you have to be responsible for your own actions.

I like Madger and all the mods - they do a fantastic job. I don't want him to leave as I think he is an excellent poster, along with many non-mods, however the all too often treatening to shut it all down, leaving, and pushing the button, I am afraid, as an outsider, does come across as arrogant and to be honest powerhungry.

I hope we can all hug and make up, but I do fear that this powerstruggle is getting too much and honestly - a tad bit boring.

Ive got bigger things to worry about than OTIB.

[Guest]

Right, To put the record straight.

Firstly Merry Bloody Christmas. My week off and I come back to this after two days of internet bliss.

I deleted the thread. It wasn't something I did straight away but something I thought about for a number of hours (if you'll remember it was first posted around 7pm). I removed it because I wasn't sure about the validity of the claims and again I wasn't sure if it was the sort of information best posted on here.

Some of you might chuckle at the thought of other clubs watching this place but I seem to remember a certain poster on this thread having a right go at me a few years ago when I mentioned that he was tracking Charlotte Church across America. Funny how time and memories are quickly forgotten.

So I got it wrong. I am sorry. It was a mistake and I hold my hands up.

I would like to thank RT for making one of my best mods quit, yeah cheers 'mate'

[Henry]

I think the mods/admin should grow a pair of balls each and stop having hissy fits.

And it be nice to stop these stupid threats of 'pushing the button.'

[Dollymarie]

Id just like to add my two pence worth.

People take this forum waaaaaaaaay too seriously, and I think if we had won yesterday, then people would have found far more important things to discuss.

I can see both sides of the arguement, I personally wouldnt have wanted WBA to know one of our most influencial players wouldnt be playing (even if it was true) but at the same time things have been posted which were just "rumours" so maybe it could have been worded as such.

Another forum I visit the moderating is a hell of a lot stricter, and if the mods on there decided that they wanted to ban the word purple (for example), and anyone using it would be subject to a ban, then they could do that, and they would say its as simple as, you stick to our rules or its tough.

The mod have a thankless task on here, and I don't know how they put up with the shit they have to sometimes, theyre dammed if they do and theyre dammed if they don't, imagine if the comment about Louis had reached WBA, and then someone had come out and said "well we've heard their best defender is injured etc etc" you'd all be cursing Gaffer.

I for one hope Madger comes back, hes a brilliant mod, and one of the wittier and more intelligent posters on here.

Now go on all of you jump on my head.

[Andy Horsman]

What a load of sanctimonious bullsh*t!!!

Censorship in the interests of the club verges on Stalinism, 'for the good of the state'

No-one seems to have asked why, if this was all so 'hush hush' in case Tony Mowbray was surfing OTIB before picking his side,Louis announced the news of his injury, to a known City fan!!!

This forum has become so anal its beyond belief.It's like George Orwell's wet dreams, post 1984 Big Brother where conformity is the buzz word.

It's football ffs,so let people be and chill out, there are more important things in life than this forum!!

[Guest]

Ok I'll say it again. I'm sorry. I got it wrong.

[Gaffer]

Ok I'll say it again. I'm sorry. I got it wrong.

It's my fault Tom. I shouldn't have posted in such a presumtious way about our best defender. I've learned from it and it will not happen again. Apologies.

[Andy Horsman]

I wasn't explicit enough(!) in my previous post in expressing my disgust with any kind of witch-hunt culture prevailing on here either.

Someone posted what they thought was newsworthy, others reacted to that, ther post was removed,some agreed, others do not.

My point is lets get back to having a laugh on here, and enjoying others views and steer the good ship OTIB away from all this po-faced recrimination.

Let's leave all the hype/spin/lies/claims/and counter-claims to the politicians.

This is Football

UP THE CITY!!!

[Rednready]

It was I who chuckled at the thought of the WBA management basing their game plan around the OTIB content, I have not changed my mind.

I made a wrong corporate media statement in 1975 before most of you were born, I tendered my resignation, which thank God was refused as I had 4 kids at the time.

No need for chest beating or resignations, thats just lack of experience. Apologise and move along, its that easy.

The whole thread revolves around a simple principle, freedom of legitimate content. No different than any media form, be it newspaper, television or internet.

Every club has its do good fans who work hard for their clubs internet services, some paid some not. Personally I don't care why they are involved in the equation, its their choice.

There are always other options, in our case we do have Subcider, or the Supporters Trust forum. Both are ordinary, but would grow with opportunity if OTIB closed down .

Bottom line is freedom of speech, fought for and died for. A BCFC preference dictating OTIB posting policy is IMO over the top. But after 35 years of corporate management and military service what do I know.

[cider head]

To be honest i don't know who deleted the thread and i had around 15 reports for it to be deleted

to which i took no action to as i felt the thread was not harmful, however i have been made aware

that GJ wanted the post removed untill it was offical news, there was no threats by the club, no pressure

for it to be removed it was asked as a favour (which could be ignored) but the favour was granted to

keep a good relationship with Bristol city, this forum could well have said stuff you but why take that

attitude?.

why they thought this thread was deemed more harmful than

others is a mystery, as for other clubs reading this forum of course they do, blimey GJ pins stuff posted

on here on the dressing room wall as a motivation tactic and we as other clubs have a press department

who monitor news about their clubs and a press officer could print it off and give the the first team coach

to read (they may not take it seriously) but it gets read, i want to read some replies from those who reported

the thread for their views as they are silent in this bash the mod session.

it's a no win situation for the mods as both sides will get upset

lets hope it's a one off and we can move on and talk about the football..

The only outcome i can see to this is GJ pulling carey in to the office for a roasting for

telling people he shouldn't have about his injury..

[Super Bob]

imagine if the comment about Louis had reached WBA, and then someone had come out and said "well we've heard their best defender is injured etc etc" you'd all be cursing Gaffer.

Dolly, You are ( even if female ) 1 of the more sensible posters on this forum, but be real, even IF WBA did take the news of LC being unfit would they change their tactics,formation or personnel on the word of a formite on said forum. PLEASE. Even if true, I pray our manager would not.

[Dollymarie]

Dolly, You are ( even if female ) 1 of the more sensible posters on this forum, but be real, even IF WBA did take the news of LC being unfit would they change their tactics,formation or personnel on the word of a formite on said forum. PLEASE. Even if true, I pray our manager would not.

Thankyou for the praise SuperBob, but id like to highlight somethine GJ said which Ciderhead posted

however i have been made aware

that GJ wanted the post removed untill it was offical news, there was no threats by the club, no pressure

for it to be removed it was asked as a favour

[Dave L]

Ok I'll say it again. I'm sorry. I got it wrong.

I don't think you did Tom.

I have no idea who asked who to delete what. I also respond to this not as an emloyee of the club but as a long standing member of this forum and frequent advocate of people's right to post without undue censorship.

But to start talking about the deletion of the thread as an abuse of free speech is the biggest load of twaddle I have read on here in ages, and given the recent level of some of the 'debate' on here, that's saying something.

There are loads of opinions freely expressed on this forum about a wide range of subjects, and providing they are not libellous, inflamatory or downright insulting I defend the right of anyone to say pretty much what they like.

But just because the forum exists as an opportunity to voice an opinion about the club, it doesn't follow that every opinion or piece of information should be given a platform. This is such an example. No matter how unlikely people think it might be, clubs do check out internet forums. Indeed, according to some posters on here, the local press get all of their stories from this forum!

So it's not ridiculous to suggest that a piece of information about the fitness of one of our key players, released two days before a game, is likely to find it's way to the West Brom camp. Nor is it fanciful to suggest that they would not be able to use this information to their advantage, either by a change in their formation and tactics, or even to give their team a psychological lift before the game. It might not make a massive difference, but why should we give the opposition the benefit of even a half percent advantage by giving them information they would not otherwise have had?

If managers wanted the opposition to know their team they would release the information well in advance of the one hour before kick off when they have to hand their team sheets to the referee. They withold that information for very sound reasons.

Thank heavens the internet didn't exist in 1066. Norman soldiers would no doubt have been posting that a 'mate of theirs' had told them about William The Conqueror's secret battle plan to draw out the Saxon defenders by feinting to retreat on their left flank. In 1944 some pissed up bloke would no doubt have gone online to tell half of Germany that his brother was working to construct a series of floating harbours ready for an invasion of France. In 1966, Alf Ramsay's gardener would no doubt have been posting that he'd overheard a conversation between Alf and Jimmy Greaves saying that England intended to win the World Cup by playing without wingers.

And so some of history's greatest and most effective surprises would have been spoiled by the right of people to have 'free speech' on an internet forum.

This club is here to win football matches, something they've been doing remarkably well of late. I fully support the right of the moderators on here to delete any thread that they feel reduces the likelihood of that happening. That's not an attack on free speech or civil liberties, just an entirely sensible witholding of sensitive information.

[Markman]

what is this thread all about? Was Louis injured on Saturday?

(let me be clear on this - someone posted a thread saying LC was out, someone replied, someone took the thread off, someone started another thread saying where is the thread that was the thread and this thread turned into the thread that was like the thread that was taken off!! Have we all gone mad?? Tom take this thread off as well and let us live again - no need to apologise at all)

[Antman]

I don't think you did Tom.

I have no idea who asked who to delete what. I also respond to this not as an emloyee of the club but as a long standing member of this forum and frequent advocate of people's right to post without undue censorship.

But to start talking about the deletion of the thread as an abuse of free speech is the biggest load of twaddle I have read on here in ages, and given the recent level of some of the 'debate' on here, that's saying something.

There are loads of opinions freely expressed on this forum about a wide range of subjects, and providing they are not libellous, inflamatory or downright insulting I defend the right of anyone to say pretty much what they like.

But just because the forum exists as an opportunity to voice an opinion about the club, it doesn't follow that every opinion or piece of information should be given a platform. This is such an example. No matter how unlikely people think it might be, clubs do check out internet forums. Indeed, according to some posters on here, the local press get all of their stories from this forum!

So it's not ridiculous to suggest that a piece of information about the fitness of one of our key players, released two days before a game, is likely to find it's way to the West Brom camp. Nor is it fanciful to suggest that they would not be able to use this information to their advantage, either by a change in their formation and tactics, or even to give their team a psychological lift before the game. It might not make a massive difference, but why should we give the opposition the benefit of even a half percent advantage by giving them information they would not otherwise have had?

If managers wanted the opposition to know their team they would release the information well in advance of the one hour before kick off when they have to hand their team sheets to the referee. They withold that information for very sound reasons.

Thank heavens the internet didn't exist in 1066. Norman soldiers would no doubt have been posting that a 'mate of theirs' had told them about William The Conqueror's secret battle plan to draw out the Saxon defenders by feinting to retreat on their left flank. In 1944 some pissed up bloke would no doubt have gone online to tell half of Germany that his brother was working to construct a series of floating harbours ready for an invasion of France. In 1966, Alf Ramsay's gardener would no doubt have been posting that he'd overheard a conversation between Alf and Jimmy Greaves saying that England intended to win the World Cup by playing without wingers.

And so some of history's greatest and most effective surprises would have been spoiled by the right of people to have 'free speech' on an internet forum.

This club is here to win football matches, something they've been doing remarkably well of late. I fully support the right of the moderators on here to delete any thread that they feel reduces the likelihood of that happening. That's not an attack on free speech or civil liberties, just an entirely sensible witholding of sensitive information.

Dave, How do you decide which threads offer that half percentile though?

I think if OTIB feel they reserve the right to remove postings on what has to essentially be an ad hoc basis, they need to make that very explicit to all posters.

There is no reason why it shouldn't happen - true, but I feel that a lot of posters would take a dim view to that approach of forum management,

Surely applying your argument would mean that you'd be left overseeing what essentially is complete load of nonsense, with any interesting or 'sensitive' bits removed for safety. Hmmm, not far removed from what is already here I fear! but that aside, whats the point?

Removing this forum from 'official' control watered it down (agreed it distanced the club from the increasing likelihood of litiganous content) applying this latest approach takes it's already diminished little testicles and places them firmly in an airtight jar on the shelf, now where's the fun in that?

I love your line 'just an entirely sensible witholding of sensitive information' though! Fantastic. it fits seamlessly in the political lexicon of the day.

I just worry about the number of instances when this logic is being applied in the world around us.

cheers and happy new year.

[RedTop]

Dave, I resisted replying to avoid the thread bouncing back up as I think enough damage has been done with this topic already, but as it's back at the top I will say this:

There is a perfectly valid debate to be had about whether moderators should delete threads on an independent forum based on whether they think the club would approve or not. Some will agree, some will disagree. I personally think that if that happens, it will no longer be an independent forum. Maybe that's a good thing, but at least if it is made clear in the rules what is or is not acceptable then people will know where they stand. I myself think we are on dangerous territory if moderators - however good they are at their role - try to pick and choose which threads on injuries, transfers, ground improvements or whatever they let stand based on whether they think it might be true, or on whether the club would prefer an inconvenient topic to be removed. The fact that a thread that did not break any forum rules was deleted without the poster being given any explanation was in my opinion wrong, and that is why there were calls for an explanation. I'm sure if the poster had been PMed with a reason for the deletion things would not have snowballed, but that didn't happen and I think people, myself included, were quite entitled to ask what had happened. Now we have an explanation (of sorts - it is still unclear whether someone from the club asked for the post to be deleted, as one of the mods has said, or whether it was just done off the moderator's own back) and people can decide if it was right or wrong. However much I support the club and the people in it, I would feel uncomfortable knowing there may be someone at Ashton Gate reading the threads and deciding if they want something posted or not, or if moderators think their job involves second-guessing what the club would prefer not to be aired. That is not, to my mind, what an independent forum is about. Others may not feel that way, and I accept that.

More importantly, I think it is a shame that everyone has taken what was a spirited debate about the nature of this forum so personally, I think it is a shame that Madger has left the forum because I know he's a thoroughly decent bloke, I know Tom feels very upset about it and I have no wish to cause anyone any more anguish over what is, at the end of the day, just a public forum where we all support the same team. I've made many friends on here - some will remain friends for life, I hope - and was not expecting people to take the issue so personally, but they have and I have no wish for any bad feeling whatsoever as friendships are more important than a forum, at the end of the day. So I have asked Tom to delete my username and this will be my last post on here. Hopefully then Madger - who I'm told is as good as a moderator as he is as a poster - will feel he can return, the forum can work out how much censorship they wish to have in the name of keeping the club happy, all the posters will then know where they stand, and we can all get on with doing what we want to do most of all, which is cheer Gary Johnson's remarkable Bristol City team on to the success that they - and we after so many years of suffering - deserve.

Come on you Reds! 2008 will be our year. Happy New Year to you all, and may all your dreams come true. Except the Gashead posters on here, obviously....