Steve L On Tickets: Dilemma

[Red Zeppelin]

Yet another 'Ticket price' topic! I haven't said anything on the matter myself so far, but this follows Steve Lansdown's World interview.

Now there actually some figures to contend with.

I am a ST and want the ground as full as possible myself, but looking at the figures now, I can understand SL's thinking on the prices of tickets.

SL says we lost £15,000 in gate revenue at the Barnsley game. So we got a 16k crowd (which he thought was very good) BUT lost out on the money.

Therefore there are two circumstances:

1. Have around 14k-15k and sustain the revenue.

2. Get +16,000, gaining an extra thousand people or so, but losing out on around £345k per season (which is could go towards transfers for example). Personally I don't feel that a boosted crowd adds sufficient atmosphere, and enough of a contribution to cover this lost revenue as a Championship club. I know that this was only Barnsley, who brought just 800 fans, but it's still the point of losing out on finances.

I must add that SL's opinion is that we need to compromise between that lost revenue, and increasing our current crowds a little.

I'd prefer slightly lower crowds with the higher gate revenue, and it is better to think of the club longer term, instead of individuals' suffering in high prices.

[Barrs Court Red]

The Barnsly game was always going to make a loss. I dount anyone would advocate having tickets that low always, but I think it did prove lower prices do bring bigger gate. It will always be a tough balance to find.

[NiceRed]

I don't have World so didn't listen to the interview, but does SL state that we were down 15k on our average crowd this year (which I would guess is round the 15 000 mark), or that we were 15k down on the crowd that would've been expected had the Barnsley game been at full price (which I would guess would've been around 12-13,000)?

There's clearly a difference between the two, and I would guess he was referring to the former scenario...

[Red Zeppelin]

I don't have World so didn't listen to the interview, but does SL state that we were down 15k on our average crowd this year (which I would guess is round the 15 000 mark), or that we were 15k down on the crowd that would've been expected had the Barnsley game been at full price (which I would guess would've been around 12-13,000)?

There's clearly a difference between the two, and I would guess he was referring to the former scenario...

15k down on usual matchday revenue this season.

[bartolona]

The crowd against Barnsley made the same amount of revenue as a full paying crowd of 12,500.

[rockin-robin]

The crowd against Barnsley made the same amount of revenue as a full paying crowd of 12,500.

Exactly, so in theory, there was no loss made?

[Nibor]

Yet another 'Ticket price' topic! I haven't said anything on the matter myself so far, but this follows Steve Lansdown's World interview.

Now there actually some figures to contend with.

I am a ST and want the ground as full as possible myself, but looking at the figures now, I can understand SL's thinking on the prices of tickets.

SL says we lost £15,000 in gate revenue at the Barnsley game. So we got a 16k crowd (which he thought was very good) BUT lost out on the money.

Therefore there are two circumstances:

1. Have around 14k-15k and sustain the revenue.

2. Get +16,000, gaining an extra thousand people or so, but losing out on around £345k per season (which is could go towards transfers for example). Personally I don't feel that a boosted crowd adds sufficient atmosphere, and enough of a contribution to cover this lost revenue as a Championship club. I know that this was only Barnsley, who brought just 800 fans, but it's still the point of losing out on finances.

I must add that SL's opinion is that we need to compromise between that lost revenue, and increasing our current crowds a little.

I'd prefer slightly lower crowds with the higher gate revenue, and it is better to think of the club longer term, instead of individuals' suffering in high prices.

I'm interested to know what SteveL thinks the Barnsley game attendance would have been at normal price. I would suggest we did not lose any money because it would have been drastically lower than an average attendance. For him to suggest we've lost money he must have been expecting an attendance of ~15k at normal prices and I would say that's unrealistic in the extreme.

I agree with him that there is a compromise to be made between price and crowds, which suggests that he's coming round to the idea now. I think he should pick a couple of games, estimate the attendances, make some significant reductions to prices for those games, market them and look at the overall affect. If it's near break even or better then the choice should be fairly obvious?

Besides... there are what 11 home games left? If we did lose 15k on each one but got 16-7k home fans on average wouldn't that extra support for the team on the field be worth what is around 1.5% of our spend for the season - a drop in the bucket?

[cheese]

I'm interested to know what SteveL thinks the Barnsley game attendance would have been at normal price. I would suggest we did not lose any money because it would have been drastically lower than an average attendance. For him to suggest we've lost money he must have been expecting an attendance of ~15k at normal prices and I would say that's unrealistic in the extreme.

We've covered this before Nibor, but without knowing the breakdown of concessionary tickets, you can't begin to make that calculation without some assumptions which could be wildly wrong.

[Nibor]

We've covered this before Nibor, but without knowing the breakdown of concessionary tickets, you can't begin to make that calculation without some assumptions which could be wildly wrong.

I know, I was the one who pointed that out to you. It's why I used ~ which is a notation for "approximately". Besides, other posters in this thread have confirmed SteveL was comparing it to average matchday revenue.

It's obvious that Barnsley would not have been an average matchday revenue at normal prices so the statement that we lost money is at best misleading.

[Red Zeppelin]

I'm interested to know what SteveL thinks the Barnsley game attendance would have been at normal price. I would suggest we did not lose any money because it would have been drastically lower than an average attendance. For him to suggest we've lost money he must have been expecting an attendance of ~15k at normal prices and I would say that's unrealistic in the extreme.

He said something like, 'it was very good considering it's the game before Christmas, and we'd had a home game the week before,'. So is as aware of anyone else that that game was destined to be a no-goer.

I agree with him that there is a compromise to be made between price and crowds, which suggests that he's coming round to the idea now. I think he should pick a couple of games, estimate the attendances, make some significant reductions to prices for those games, market them and look at the overall affect. If it's near break even or better then the choice should be fairly obvious?

He said that he would do something like that, looking at reducing the prices for appropriate games.

Besides... there are what 11 home games left? If we did lose 15k on each one but got 16-7k home fans on average wouldn't that extra support for the team on the field be worth what is around 1.5% of our spend for the season - a drop in the bucket?

Perhaps, but I don't feel personally that 'More fans = More support' necessarily. Matter of opinion though.

[cheese]

I know, I was the one who pointed that out to you. It's why I used ~ which is a notation for "approximately". Besides, other posters in this thread have confirmed SteveL was comparing it to average matchday revenue.

It's obvious that Barnsley would not have been an average matchday revenue at normal prices so the statement that we lost money is at best misleading.

I know what the tilde stands for thank you. Having heard the free version, I note he says that the average revenue per ticket for the Barnsley game was about £10.74 (or ~£10.74 if you prefer) whereas it's usually around £21. No doubt you can figure the effect out yourself.

[Robbored]

The crowd against Barnsley made the same amount of revenue as a full paying crowd of 12,500.

Good point. 12,500 is about what the crowd would have been without the price drop.

[Guest ashtonyate]

I don't know what to think about Lansdown one day we are building a new ground the next we are told we lost 15k for a game we let in fans at a discount. If its that big deal how the hell are we going to pay for a new ground its well knowen that football clubs lose money.

It does not rest easey on me that we are running at a loss as I remember 1982 all so we have such a small numbers of members on the board and thats never a good thing with every body singing from the same hyme sheet you need balance on the board

[Nibor]

I know what the tilde stands for thank you. Having heard the free version, I note he says that the average revenue per ticket for the Barnsley game was about £10.74 (or ~£10.74 if you prefer) whereas it's usually around £21. No doubt you can figure the effect out yourself.

Given those numbers it would seem he was expecting a crowd of 13.5k or so.

That's about 1k higher than it would have been at normal price IMO.

We'd only attracted 14k home fans to watch Cardiff the week previous.

[Robbored]

We'd only attracted 14k home fans to watch Cardiff the week previous.

Colchester next in the league and that will be the third Saturday in a row that City will have played at home.That in its self will effect the attendence.Plus Colchester won't have much of an away following and they aren't exactly an attractive club either.

Quid a kid will flatter the attendence but I'd be surprised to see a gate of over 13500. IMO that will have increased by around 2000 if the club had offered the same prices as they did against Barnsley.

[rockin-robin]

I don't know what to think about Lansdown one day we are building a new ground the next we are told we lost 15k for a game we let in fans at a discount. If its that big deal how the hell are we going to pay for a new ground its well knowen that football clubs lose money.

It does not rest easey on me that we are running at a loss as I remember 1982 all so we have such a small numbers of members on the board and thats never a good thing with every body singing from the same hyme sheet you need balance on the board

I think i've managed to de-code your post, and from what I can make out, I think you have taken what SL has said out of context.

SL is saying that the club made a loss on previous matchday revenue of £15,000 due to halving the prices, and not that it will put the club into financial ruin. In fact, in terms of the clubs account, I think we only made a loss last year of around £750,000. Which is pretty good considering.

[WesM]

I'm no longer a season ticket holder and have to pick and choose my games.

This decision is purely financial as I simply couldn't afford to go every week.

My ticket £28

Son's ticket £16

Programme £3

Refreshments for 2 £6

Total matchday exp: £53!

I acknowledge the programme and refreshments are optional but you see my point?

What's worrying for me the most is the cost of bringing children. Everyone talks about getting kids and families to the gate, the truth is that my sons visits to the gate are limited because £16 is too expensive!

[double-trouble]

I'm no longer a season ticket holder and have to pick and choose my games.

This decision is purely financial as I simply couldn't afford to go every week.

My ticket £28

Son's ticket £16

Programme £3

Refreshments for 2 £6

Total matchday exp: £53!

I acknowledge the programme and refreshments are optional but you see my point?

What's worrying for me the most is the cost of bringing children. Everyone talks about getting kids and families to the gate, the truth is that my sons visits to the gate are limited because £16 is too expensive!

Posted a few times about this . Must encourage the kids to get to games before the future of the game becomes the lost generation .Take my two regularly and the day itself costs a small fortune , inc . transport .

Palace coming up have a family ticket , think it was 2 adults and 2 kids for £ 52 .Not bad compared to some prices I've forked out this season .

Lets be honest the game only lasts 90 mins . Compare your hourly rate of pay to the 90 mins . Then the balls only in play a max . of about 50 mins ?

Is it true value for money ?

[cheese]

I'm no longer a season ticket holder and have to pick and choose my games.

This decision is purely financial as I simply couldn't afford to go every week.

My ticket £28

Son's ticket £16

Programme £3

Refreshments for 2 £6

Total matchday exp: £53!

I acknowledge the programme and refreshments are optional but you see my point?

What's worrying for me the most is the cost of bringing children. Everyone talks about getting kids and families to the gate, the truth is that my sons visits to the gate are limited because £16 is too expensive!

So what would be acceptable for U16's? £5? If you cut out the programme and refreshments you're virtualy there! I take my kids to the odd game and the odd concert - I never buy them either a programme or refreshments at the venue. 2 Hours without drinks or food is no hardship. I can remember when I was young and my father used to take me in the 70's - it was the same - no programme and no refreshments. I couldn't understand why at the time - I do now.

[bristolrich]

Posted a few times about this . Must encourage the kids to get to games before the future of the game becomes the lost generation .Take my two regularly and the day itself costs a small fortune , inc . transport .

Lets be honest the game only lasts 90 mins . Compare your hourly rate of pay to the 90 mins . Then the balls only in play a max . of about 50 mins ?

Is it true value for money ?

Seems for a lot of people its not value for money at full prices. Make them more reasonable and more people will come!! FACT.

[bristolrich]

So what would be acceptable for U16's? £5?

Yep. £5 for U16's £10 OAP/Students £12 for adults. I seriously think something like this IS acceptable considering how much money football clubs make in TV rights, I don't think match day prices affect finances as much as some people say. Also we must consider how many potential fans go and do other things on Saturdays that are cheaper - e.g. see a film £5 for adults.

Long gone are the days when only thing for a man to do on a Saturday was football (sweeping generalisation I know but....

[Alex_BCFC]

Seems for a lot of people its not value for money at full prices. Make them more reasonable and more people will come!! FACT.

Well that's simple enough but striking the balance of not upsetting ST holders, making the ground full and bringing in as much money to help us compete in the Championship is not quite there yet. How much cheaper do you make tickets? The club are working towards finding the balance, which is good, and they know they got it wrong which is also good. I think the club has certainly improved in terms of listening to their fans and Lansdown said a lot of things that I agree with in the interview.

[bristolrich]

Well that's simple enough but striking the balance of not upsetting ST holders,

By making the prices cheaper thus meaning more people will go if they enjoy the football then surely in the end we will have more ST holders anyway! meaning more money for the club.

[Alex_BCFC]

By making the prices cheaper thus meaning more people will go if they enjoy the football then surely we will have more ST holders anyway! meaning more money for the club.

Not neccessarily. Some people can't afford ST's. More people will go if it cheaper but the club have to strike the balance of cheaper tickets but enough money coming in.

[Guest MaloneFM]

Long gone are the days when only thing for a man to do on a Saturday was football (sweeping generalisation I know but....

Earlier Richard you stated that lower prices would increase attendance and that this was a FACT. Based on what? Without that old thing its opinion. You then shoot it down by stating that there are other things to do on a saturday.

I think we may well have topped out regarding regular attendance. There may well be the occasional blip such as a decent side in the cup. I am not expecting anymore than about 16,000 maximum on saturday. It was nowhere near a full house against Man City either.

Should Premiership football arrive here I think we would average about 16-17,000 because of regular coverage on Match Of The Day and only see the full house signs go up against the big four.

Opinion. Not fact mind you.

[Nibor]

Yep. £5 for U16's £10 OAP/Students £12 for adults. I seriously think something like this IS acceptable considering how much money football clubs make in TV rights, I don't think match day prices affect finances as much as some people say. Also we must consider how many potential fans go and do other things on Saturdays that are cheaper - e.g. see a film £5 for adults.

Long gone are the days when only thing for a man to do on a Saturday was football (sweeping generalisation I know but....

The TV money is only massive in the Prem, in this division it's only slightly more than in league one.

Ticket money is the vast majority of the club's revenue at this level and the prices you're suggesting are far too low IMO.

I think reasonable prices are around £20 adult, £15 student/oap, £10 kids u-16. I reckon that would put the average seat price near enough half way between the extremes of Barnsley and normal prices.

This would knock £14 off Fatman's ticket prices for example, which is about 30% and enough to make the difference between going and not going for many people. I think it would handily add up to 2k to most gates for the remainder of the season and to be fair if we're still in the shake up for the last couple of games the club can always remove the discount since we'll sell out anyway.

I think the offer for the Boro game is pretty reasonable, I'd like to see them repeat something like that for a couple of league games so it's easier to compare with other attendances.

[double-trouble]

Earlier Richard you stated that lower prices would increase attendance and that this was a FACT. Based on what? Without that old thing its opinion. You then shoot it down by stating that there are other things to do on a saturday.

I think we may well have topped out regarding regular attendance. There may well be the occasional blip such as a decent side in the cup. I am not expecting anymore than about 16,000 maximum on saturday. It was nowhere near a full house against Man City either.

Should Premiership football arrive here I think we would average about 16-17,000 because of regular coverage on Match Of The Day and only see the full house signs go up against the big four.

Opinion. Not fact mind you.

Believe that away support would pos . be max. every week in the prem . unlike now ( except Cardiff / Plymouth ) then it would be up to us . Can't believe home support would be at max . capacity every week , but more than just for the big 4 .

[bristolrich]

Earlier Richard you stated that lower prices would increase attendance and that this was a FACT. Based on what? Without that old thing its opinion. You then shoot it down by stating that there are other things to do on a saturday.

I think we may well have topped out regarding regular attendance. There may well be the occasional blip such as a decent side in the cup. I am not expecting anymore than about 16,000 maximum on saturday. It was nowhere near a full house against Man City either.

Should Premiership football arrive here I think we would average about 16-17,000 because of regular coverage on Match Of The Day and only see the full house signs go up against the big four.

Opinion. Not fact mind you.

Well, one only has to look at the Cardiff and Barnsley games. Cardiff by far the more attractive match to watch - had less fans. The Barnsley game had more - and was closer to Xmas which is traditionally a low attendance match, the only factor here I can see is PRICE drop for the barnsley game. Thats why I think my statement is fact.

[Guest MaloneFM]

Well, one only has to look at the Cardiff and Barnsley games. Cardiff by far the more attractive match to watch - had less fans. The Barnsley game had more - and was closer to Xmas which is traditionally a low attendance match, the only factor here I can see is PRICE! Thats why I think my statement is fact IMO.

THATS what we want young fellow! Input rather than just sticking FACT. Any damn monkey can shout FACT. So they dropped the price against Barnsley and the attendance went up? On black saturday as well?

Interesting.

[bristolrich]

Any damn monkey can shout FACT.

I hope I didn't look like a monkey!!