Polish Defence Shield

[Spud55]

BBC

So, when the US gets bored with installing Latin American "tin pot" military dictators, spraying chemicals on coca growers or re-ordering the Middle East according to its own whims it resorts to upsetting Europe again. Will there ever be an end to the "Evil Empire"?

There are definately more evil empires that have existed, and calling it that is frankly farcical IMO.

They have had a severe hand in royally ###### south america, but then we have had our less than glorious moments as well.

Can't see the problem with this as frankly it's a massive waste of money, if they want to waste their money on something that is about as pointless as it gets, it's not a nuclear missile anyone hasto worry about it's a much smaller dirty bomb in the back of a van that makes intelligence agencies the world over think. Te thing with nuclear missiles is that they are almost always controlled by someone rational, namely an army/airforce general no matter how mental the dictator, the people who actually have the button to press are fully aware of the futility of doing anything at all with that missile, frankly generals generally enjoy being generals and don't really like the idea of being laid to waste by the vastly superior nuclear arsenals of the west.

If we are to for say accept that some nutter is going to launch a nuclear strike the shield and it's positioning makes perfect sense, they aren't going to get hold of ICBM's as well frankly a reliable and decent one is only just coming into reach of the chinese now, but they can't be bothered as their policy of minimum deterrant is there and is why they have very few nukes, so that's ICBM's out of the question so mabye some old russian scud with a range of 800 odd km, if you are to launch at the west from the middle east then well it's going to be eastern Europe so covering poland kinda is advisable really.

the Us doesn't always do the right or best thing, frankly IRAQ is and was always going to be a complete shambles, it made no sense in geopolitical terms to remove a stable regime from that country, yes Saddam wasn't very nice but it was stable, and unless you are going to comit to invading countries on moral grounds all over the world then don't randomly do it once, as thats the only plausable motivation to invade Iraq, it made no political sense, it definately made no military sense and neither did it make any economic sense.

But whats done is done and we have to stay and sort it out, same with Afghanistan although that is perfectly justified, we can't pull out of either otherwise every single person that has died both Us and GB soldiers and the civilians killed have died for absolutely nothing and pulling out would be no less shameful and damaging than when clinton ran from somalia with his tail between his legs.

With the whole middle east we need to start banging heads together particularly when it comes to our "allies" which are also some of the most extremist and hardline nutters out there, Saudi Arabia and the UAE and Pakistan to some extent really shouldn't be allowed to carry on as they are, yet we demonise Iran who are by no means as bad, they don't follow sharia law to anything like the extent they do in Saudi arabia and most of the UAE, and were we to sort out relations with them and let them carry on as they are, they are one of the most forward thinking states out there, which is conversley where our problem with them comes from, the whole fracas about Iran getting nuclear tecnology, Iran undoubtedly want nukes to secure themselfs but they are after a far more important commodity, nuclear power. They know as well as we do that the oil out there is slowly running out, but unlike the rest of the states out there that piss the money up the wall, they see what the west are doing, why have we not moved into full scale exploitation of the Russian oil reserves or the masses of oil in the canadian sand flats ? because we want to use the oil in the middle east first and then just leave it, Israel will have their wall and probably the most battle ready and effective military force on the planet, and then what are they going to do, with no infastrcture, and no means of doing anything. Iran seem to have noticed this and it makes sense that the next big comodity for the forseable future is going to be power, and the Iranians have large amounts of land with which to build a see of nuclear reactors to generate masses of power which we will need with our reservations about nuclear power, until fusion comes on line, and we don't want that we don't want any of the middle east having anything after their oil has gone.

Also the UN needs a bloody good slapping, they crow like anything when the Us ignores them (is it any wonder?) yet who basically bankrolls the UN, oh yes thats the US, they pour many, many billions of dollars into the UN and what does it do with it ? lets face it **** all, the UN is the biggest waste of money on the face of the planet. What did the Un achieve in Rwanda ? apart from demoralising a load of soldiers and forcing them to watch a genocide, because of the pointless RoE that the Un set, i'd hate to be a soldier forced to serve under those restraints, generals have resigned their commisions because of it, the guy in charge of the canadian forces in Rwanda resigned his commision afterwards. The UN needs a radical re-organisation, with an increased commitment from the other countries involved and to actually take some action rather than relying totally on the US, is Bosnia when the Dutch were surrounded at a refugee camp by the Serbian army they were told to lay down teir arms and to let the serbian military slaughter every single inhabitant of the camp, when all it took for the serbs to back down was the US to threaten to bomb them, then tey tried it again with Kosovo because they didn't think the Us had the b***ocks to go through with their threat, they did and bombed the shit out of the serbians, and that is pretty much the only sucess story of the UN, and it was down to the the US to get it done. The Un needs to seriously consider it's position and raise an independant force not made out of bits of other armed forces on loan, but a full time UN peacekeeping force, whic do exactly that Keep and enforce the peace, and not just stand there. Rwanda could have been sorted out by 2-3 at most battalions of British troops, we have a unique advantage in Africa as large numbers of them still like us and have always been well inclined to this country and it's past, but they also have a healthy respect for the fact that we don't take kindly to them ###### with us.

[Mr Mosquito]

Pity as she was right on Europe, and on taking personal responsibility for your life. Labour on the other hand are far too much into Big Brother by half. All to "ensure our safety, and freedoms are not compromised".

Our political views may be different in many ways, but I reckon we aint in too much disagreement about the fundamentals of it all, young Gobbers

I believe Mrs Thatcher was totally wrong on Europe. Mrs Thatcher the traitor, Mrs Thatcher at a pro-EEC rally in 1975........

[kevinmabbuttshair]

I believe Mrs Thatcher was totally wrong on Europe. Mrs Thatcher the traitor, Mrs Thatcher at a pro-EEC rally in 1975........

As a bit of devil's advocate here Gobbers, she didn't really sign us up to this bureaucratic gravy train we are in now. There was a referendum on wether we should enter the Common Market, a whole different thing, which the people voted yes for. That is why we need another referendum NOW, to sort out once and for all, this EU superstate being forced all too quietly while we're not watching

[Mr Mosquito]

As a bit of devil's advocate here Gobbers, she didn't really sign us up to this monsterty we are in now. There was a referendum on wether we should enter the Common Market, a whole different thing, which the people voted yes for. That is why we need another referendum NOW, to sort out once and for all, this EU superstate being forced all too quietly while we're not watching

kevinmabbuttshair, you're right and so is bucksred and so am I. The European Union and what it really means to us and our future should be openly debated and a referenum given with regard to our continued membership.

The argument back in 1975 was that the then EEC was going to become a legal, social and political union and not just an economic union. The Tories and their Labour and Liberal bedfellows argued that we'd be able to remain independent and that the EEC was just an economic union - they lied.

[Barrs Court Red]

kevinmabbuttshair, you're right and so is bucksred and so am I. The European Union and what it really means to us and our future should be openly debated and a referenum given with regard to our continued membership.

The argument back in 1975 was that the then EEC was going to become a legal, social and political union and not just an economic union. The Tories and their Labour and Liberal bedfellows argued that we'd be able to remain independent and that the EEC was just an economic union - they lied.

No, socialism in Europe became stronger.

It's well known that the ideology of the left ignores national boundaries, and in the modern day the left see the EU as a way of creating a socialist collective. What worries me as the idiots that see this idea as realistic ignore Europe's troubled past. Branding everyone "European" ignores that fact that it is made up of vastly different peoples.

I'm hoping the creation of a sovereign Kosovo sees the Flemish, Basques, Scots and Welsh also move toward independence, something would see a rise of nationalism in Europe, something that is badly needed.

You only need see the racism in France and Germany to see that multicultural socialist societies will never be harmonious. Indeed in the last 60 years the left and the trade unions have changed their tune, as in 1940's Scotland they led the cries to kick out the Poles following the war.

[Mr Mosquito]

No, socialism in Europe became stronger.

It's well known that the ideology of the left ignores national boundaries, and in the modern day the left see the EU as a way of creating a socialist collective. What worries me as the idiots that see this idea as realistic ignore Europe's troubled past. Branding everyone "European" ignores that fact that it is made up of vastly different peoples.

I'm hoping the creation of a sovereign Kosovo sees the Flemish, Basques, Scots and Welsh also move toward independence, something would see a rise of nationalism in Europe, something that is badly needed.

You only need see the racism in France and Germany to see that multicultural socialist societies will never be harmonious. Indeed in the last 60 years the left and the trade unions have changed their tune, as in 1940's Scotland they led the cries to kick out the Poles following the war.

The European Union is a slippery slope, and things are already slipping down it very fast. Don't be surprised when you one day wake up and have a complete authoritarian, totalitarian, fascist police state controlled by and provided exclusively for a new aristocratic European class of Toffs and Snobs bred from the inbreds that are our own current UK political ruling class. The EU does not provide the building blocks of a free, open democracy. Wake up!

[Barrs Court Red]

The EU does not provide the building blocks of a free, open democracy. Wake up!

Did you actually read my post

[Mr Mosquito]

Did you actually read my post

I certainly did read your post and decided to reply to it in a totally obscure and oblique way.

I'm not sure why we need a 'Polish defence shield'. I'm all in favour of free trade between ourselves and the Russians. My idea of trade with Russia could include sending our EU loving Government over to Russian Siberia on work training exercises. There the Lib-Lab-Con politicians and their inbred ruling elite puppet masters could learn the meaning of real work in temperatures approaching minus 50 degrees centigrade in winter. Now I know how good olde Joe Stalin must have felt sending the idiots in his own Government for work experience in Siberia.

[Timmis DK]

I see I'm a bit late on the topic, but seeing where we are now I see myself agreeing with The Right Honourable Goblin. I think the wake up call is lost on Moomin- which is a pity because the Moomins are great and it's sad when someone fails to see that the European Union only currently represents the interests of big business and multinational corporations.

The EU does not provide the building blocks of a free, open democracy Wake up please! The EU lacks basic democracy in the very nature of its structures. Totally regulated by the Growth and Stability Pact check it out - designed to restrict government borrowing and thereby the ability to spend on public provision, particularly in adverse economic conditions.

This quite simply results in the repeated attacks on social services and welfare within the member states which we have clearly been witnessing while our governments attempt hopelessly to keep within the criteria.

In the EU today pensions are under repeated attack. Social security systems are dismantled and privatised. Health and education are faced with privatisation and deregulation.

Trade unions are threatened and labour markets deregulated.

Jobs are made part time and insecure. These policies are shaped by the EU itself and implemented at national level by both centre-right and social democratic governments- such as our very own champion of the peoples- New Labour in Britain alike.

All the while you just sit in the Atyeo, whine about how we're only 3rd in the Championship amd promote this warped notion that a wave of Nationalist Xenophobic movements accross Europe would be a good thing.

[bucksred]

The European Union is a slippery slope, and things are already slipping down it very fast. Don't be surprised when you one day wake up and have a complete authoritarian, totalitarian, fascist police state controlled by and provided exclusively for a new aristocratic European class of Toffs and Snobs bred from the inbreds that are our own current UK political ruling class. The EU does not provide the building blocks of a free, open democracy. Wake up!

Perhaps you are the one who needs to wake up, young Gobbers. the days of your actual aristocratic European toffs and snobs is looooooooong gone. France is ruled by the son of a Hungarian Jew, Merkel is the son of a E German pastor, her predessesor was a Volkdeutsch refugee from Romania, Prodi, is a working class hero, as is the Spanish clown. Barroso is also a working class hero. Snobs and toffs, you're having a laugh!

The European aristocracy was blown away in the maelstrom of Fascism, and Communism, their privileges, estates, and power.German, Austrian, Italian, Polish and Yugoslav aristos in particular paid a price for resisting first Facism, then communism. Most of the German bomb plotters and other resistance were aristos-who if the Nazis failed, then the Reds succeeded in murdering. Thousands of Polish ones were murdered at Katyn, by the Reds. Red partisans killed many many Italian ones, and Tito wiped out the Yugoslav ones. Not to mention Soviet destruction of Russian, Romanian, Bulgarian and Hungarian aristos

Police forces in Europe are in the main inept, inefficient, incompetant, and indifferent-broken by Socialist inspired political correctness, and denial of their heritage.

Moomin is right Europe is dominated by socialists, and socialism. It is utterly incapable of embracing the type of change globalism is bringing. Old dogmas, old enemies, old enemies, old concepts. old mistakes. All Europeans loss.

Its THIS country which leads the way in surveillance, and other big brother stuff. and its a socialist government in charge

The elected leaders of Europe are professional bland colourless politicos, people who have no idea of how their people feel. no feel for history, service, pride, or community. They cant interact with us the voters, cos they don't know, or want to how to. Europe's peoples want to rise up and fight these #######s. they wont though, cos they've been brainwashed into denying their history, their culture, their nations, their languages...all in the name of socialism. The same socialists who were appeasers in the 30's, who said they would never fight for their countries, cos war was wrong. Yeah right. stopped a lot didn't it.

All this ineptitude by politicians is inspire Left and Right wing looneys, pyschos, racist, religious and political nut cases. just what we need eh?

[Timmis DK]

Its THIS country which leads the way in surveillance, and other big brother stuff. and its a socialist government in charge

Socialism? You're having a laugh!?

Todays notion of Socialism has become so distored and abused by todays governments. They've taken the name and dragged it with them into their centre right capitalist agenda to manufacture the illusion (or delusion depending if your stupid enough to buy into it) that we have a choice between a democatic socialist welfare state or right wing conservatism.

The current government of Great Britian bears little resemblance to Socialism at all. You're strange. Where's the sun?

[Dorset_Cider]

BBC

So, when the US gets bored with installing Latin American "tin pot" military dictators, spraying chemicals on coca growers or re-ordering the Middle East according to its own whims it resorts to upsetting Europe again. Will there ever be an end to the "Evil Empire"?

Oh come on....... what would you expect the Russians to say........... there are many wrongs in the world but that goes to a level way above us normal little nobodies?

Shall we bring the potential to sell us gas into the equation.... they are not our biggest suppliers yet but........ they want to sell we want to buy......politics .... and dollars etc

[Mr Mosquito]

I see I'm a bit late on the topic, but seeing where we are now I see myself agreeing with The Right Honourable Goblin. I think the wake up call is lost on Moomin- which is a pity because the Moomins are great and it's sad when someone fails to see that the European Union only currently represents the interests of big business and multinational corporations.

Thanks Timmis DK.

The European Union's ruling elite comprises politicians, corporate executives, bankers, military chiefs and other hangers on - they are most definately not Socialist. The EU is, probably, best described as being 'Neo-Liberalist'. The excellent article 'The EU, Neo-Liberalism And Third World Poverty' By Eugene Mc Cartan describes the EU as it really is far better than I can and the link is below.....

http://www.politicalaffairs.net/article/ar...view/1442/1/32/

'Neo-liberalism' a definition: is a set of economic policies that have become widespread during the last 25 years or so. Although the word is rarely heard in the United States, you can clearly see the effects of neo-liberalism in the USA as the rich grow richer and the poor grow poorer....Around the world, neo-liberalism has been imposed by powerful financial institutions and trading blocs like the International Monetary Fund (IMF), the World Bank, the European Union, and the Inter- American Development Bank....the capitalist crisis over the last 25 years, with its shrinking profit rates, inspired the corporate elite to revive economic liberalism. That's what makes it 'neo' or new.

The Neo-liberal ideology sees the nation primarily as a business firm. The nation-firm is selling itself as an investment location, rather than simply selling export goods. If no-one in government believes in this ideology, it will have no consequences. If however, a Neo-liberal government is in power i.e. Tories and most recently New Labour in the UK, it will pursue policies designed to make the nation more attractive as an investment location. These policies are generally pro-business, and are perceived as such by the opponents of the policies. Thus we now see a plentiful supply of cheap labour benefitting big business - do our Government care if our people struggle to afford decent housing on £5-£10 per hour? - no because they're sucking vast profits from us.

[Barrs Court Red]

I see I'm a bit late on the topic, but seeing where we are now I see myself agreeing with The Right Honourable Goblin. I think the wake up call is lost on Moomin- which is a pity because the Moomins are great and it's sad when someone fails to see that the European Union only currently represents the interests of big business and multinational corporations.

Blimey, another one that can't read

All the while you just sit in the Atyeo, whine about how we're only 3rd in the Championship amd promote this warped notion that a wave of Nationalist Xenophobic movements accross Europe would be a good thing.

It would certainly be more palatable, to see people take pride in the nation state, than to see ghost nations, hamstrung by the left leaning EU supreme court on legal matters, a bank run thousands of miles away hopelessly trying a one size fits all policy with a single currency.

You and goblin say that the EU is a capitalist endevour! It is little more than a protection racket for French tobacconists, and any other failing business. Go read up about that, because in any capitalist system that scandel wouldn't continue!

My bit worry is an EU foriegn policy. In times of crisis we all know the answer from most Europeans "I surrender"

[Mr Mosquito]

Moomin, the European Union is run by Capitalists for the benefit of Capitalists. Their new form of extremist Capitalism is 'Neo-liberalism' - a form of globalisation that relies on the cheapest labour and cheapest raw materials for greatest profit. That's why our Government aren't worried about illegal immigration because these illegal immigrants daren't complain about rubbish wages and living conditions because they'd be deported if they moaned. Cheap fuel is also needed to maximise profits and that's why Tony Blair wanted to attack Iraq for their oil - note also that Tony Blair was not interested in sending any of his kids to fight to secure Iraq's oil supply.

[Timmis DK]

Dear Moomin,

Blimey, another one that can't read

If you wish to pipe up and suggest that I can't read (a claim which I have quite clearly debunked).

You and goblin say that the EU is a capitalist endevour! It is little more than a protection racket for French tobacconists, and any other failing business. Go read up about that, because in any capitalist system that scandel wouldn't continue!

You may at least wish to ensure that you spell correctly. Jackass.

Let the discussion continue.

Yours, Timmis

[Mr Mosquito]

You and goblin say that the EU is a capitalist endevour! It is little more than a protection racket for French tobacconists, and any other failing business. Go read up about that, because in any capitalist system that scandel wouldn't continue!

Moomin, at least the French and the Dutch stood up against the European Union plutocrats and defeated the EU Constitution in 2005. It is important that we acknowledge that this significant victory was due mainly to the mobilisation of working class people in France and Holland. Ordinary bods in this country defeated Margaret Thatcher and her Poll Tax in the same way that the European Union's sycophants in this country can also be defeated.

I've just thought of a buzz phrase.....

The European Union must die so that democracy in England can live.

[Barrs Court Red]

Dear Moomin,

Blimey, another one that can't read

If you wish to pipe up and suggest that I can't read (a claim which I have quite clearly debunked).

You and goblin say that the EU is a capitalist endevour! It is little more than a protection racket for French tobacconists, and any other failing business. Go read up about that, because in any capitalist system that scandel wouldn't continue!

You may at least wish to ensure that you spell correctly. Jackass.

Let the discussion continue.

Yours, Timmis

Jackass? Blimey, being a ginger i'd of thought you'd want to keep your head down. This isn't an English exam, it's a forum, so stick to the flow of the thread and avoid insults or go find something better to do, like maybe shaving your ginger mop

[Barrs Court Red]

Moomin, at least the French and the Dutch stood up against the European Union plutocrats and defeated the EU Constitution in 2005. It is important that we acknowledge that this significant victory was due mainly to the mobilisation of working class people in France and Holland. Ordinary bods in this country defeated Margaret Thatcher and her Poll Tax in the same way that the European Union's sycophants in this country can also be defeated.

I've just thought of a buzz phrase.....

The European Union must die so that democracy in England can live.

Protecting their own interests to prevent a bigger flow of manpower across the EU, that and the threat of Turkish entry, which was a major point at the time.

[The ghost of Justin Fashanu]

Gobbers, although I fully admire your toff bashing and your flag bearing for those who wish for the same, your arguments would be far more convincing if you got your facts straight.

For a start, neo-liberalism has been around for a long, long time. It is not a new form of "extremist capitalism" in fact, liberalism (in this state) has been around since the late 1700s. True, the term may have been coined in the post-Friedman era, but the ideology has been followed (more or less) by the majority of British governments over the last two centuries. The notable exclusion from neo-liberalism was in the 1950s and 1960s which directly lead to the fall of JMK's theories and the economic collapse of the 1970s.

Thatcher then pursued an aggressive neo-liberal economic policy, and we all know what happened to Thatcher and the country!

As for the EU being neo-liberal, give it a break! We're talking economically here and any state/body that has the common agriculture policy taking such a huge chunk out of its budget can hardly be called neo-liberal, especially given the amount of beaurocrats that the EU funds!

Economically the UK government does follow a minority of neo-liberal policies but MF would be turning in his grave seeing the Northern Rock nationalisation coupled with such a bloated welfare state and such (relatively) high taxes.

As for socially, the UK is anything but liberal, the erosion of our civil liberties is grotesque and more akin to neo-conservative than neo-liberal.

[Timmis DK]

Quite right. The UK is anything but liberal.

Constant invasions of privacy with CCTV, detention without charge extended to 28 days under the Terrorism Bill, and the proposed introduction of ID cards....

'Liberal' derives from the word- Liberty. Just what some of these government measures represent? Come on!

Moomin, I was quite right to call you a Jackass, (note capital 'J') and no I don't consider the forum to be an exam, unlike the government in regards to proposed citizenship tests, but you were the one who questioned my ability to read. You seem to like playing the big guy I see. Nice one.

[Barrs Court Red]

Quite right. The UK is anything but liberal.

Still, we could be really forward thinking and incite the Muslim world in our papers, that would be tryely be enlightened.

Constant invasions of privacy with CCTV, detention without charge extended to 28 days under the Terrorism Bill, and the proposed introduction of ID cards....

Is CCTV an invasion of privacy? For example it played a massive part in catching the Suffolk strangler, and has helped in umpteen convictions for all manor of offences. 28 days without charge? Has to be agreed by a judge and only in complex cases, makes sense in my view.

'Liberal' derives from the word- Liberty. Just what some of these government measures represent? Come on!

A truely free society in todays climate? Ha what a stupid notion.

Moomin, I was quite right to call you a Jackass, (note capital 'J') and no I don't consider the forum to be an exam, unlike the government in regards to proposed citizenship tests, but you were the one who questioned my ability to read. You seem to like playing the big guy I see. Nice one.

The government want the forum to be an exam? Blimey please point me that one out.

Too be honest you sound like a ****, you call Bucksred strange for example. Bucks is a top lad, where as you've been here 5 minutes.

[The ghost of Justin Fashanu]

Being from Denmark Timmis is probably fully aware of "inciting the Muslim world" and their response. For 7 days in a row Muslims have rioted in Denmark and not a jot in our press. According to my friends over in Copenhagen there's been a lot of arson attacks and random beatings.

As for CCTV - has crime really decreased in the last 10 or so years where it has become more prevelant? It really is hard to tell with the way the government here massage the figures, but CCTV has hardly prevented horrendous crimes, including the atrocities of July 7th.

Does it make some people feel safer? Perhaps. But the "nothing to hide nothing to fear" brigade should volunteer to have CCTV installed in their house - at least it would catch any burglary. It's all a matter of degrees. ID cards, CCTV, DNA database - where will it all end?

[bucksred]

It's the US politicians who are wanting to build the provocative missile site not the Russians.

I'm confused Bucks, on the one hand you say you hate politicians, but on the other you defend the creators of US foreign policy to the hilt.

I do, but pray tell who will defend the hard earned freedoms we enjoy, if the Yanks don't? France? Germany, Italy, Spain? don't make me laugh. If you are so naive as to beleive there are not a load of hostile nations out there ready to take those freedoms away...

Democracy falls to totalitarian systems unless you have a strong leader, which can only be the US, AGAIN. seeing as gutless Europeans cant/wont/ aint capable

Politicians make the countries weak over there in Europe. Ours are pathetic, and Bush is a fool, but he has the guts to stand up and defend freedom, and you cant do that without taking the bad guys on on their level.

[bucksred]

Thanks Timmis DK.

The European Union's ruling elite comprises politicians, corporate executives, bankers, military chiefs and other hangers on - they are most definately not Socialist. The EU is, probably, best described as being 'Neo-Liberalist'. The excellent article 'The EU, Neo-Liberalism And Third World Poverty' By Eugene Mc Cartan describes the EU as it really is far better than I can and the link is below.....

EU and military?? don't make me laugh!! the only thing the EU's military is good for is parades. They have not got a single major player in the worlds military heirarchy, if you exclude French nukes. Only the Dutch & Danes of the old EU, and Poland of the new members is remotely capable of serious fighting. 'kin Sweden changed a traditional military symbol, which had a male organ showing, to one without, because it offended Swedish female soldiers. NATO cant persuade most of its gutless (EU)European states to pick up the slack anywhere, and the EU force to help in Darfur, is struggling for the same reason

military chiefs........... now I have heard everything.

And I don't think the corporate structures appreciate the sclerotic EU establishment either. most are upping production and moving it to Asian tiger economies. Costing Europe hundreds of thousands of jobs.

and the EU is overwhelmingly socialist, far more so than this country...they are regular governments over there, not every 10 years or so as here. They are tipped to take power in several European states in their next elections, including France, Spain, & Germany

[Mr Mosquito]

Gobbers, although I fully admire your toff bashing and your flag bearing for those who wish for the same, your arguments would be far more convincing if you got your facts straight.

As for socially, the UK is anything but liberal, the erosion of our civil liberties is grotesque and more akin to neo-conservative than neo-liberal.

The EU does bear resemblance to a Soviet Command style economy with reference to its Common Agricultural Policy. However, is the USA a Soviet Command style economy because its railways are government owned??!!!! The overall economic policy of the EU - like the USA - is Neo-liberal with free movement of Capital and labour within its borders. An interesting EU juxtaposition is that the EU Common Agricultural Policy benefits the rich inbred toff/snob landowners of this country with massive subsidies. E.g. Prince Charles and his Mother - as our unelected head of state - must be really coining it with EU grants for all the land they own - Duchy of Cornwall and other Crown estates etc. :noexpression:

Indeed, socially the UK is not liberal. The Police are happy with swearing an oath of allegiance to the leader of a foreign ruling class. Our Police are also quite happy to bash our heads at football matches for singing and standing and if you're really unlucky they'll set one of their German bred German shephard dogs on your arse.

We're definately on the slippery slope with regard to ASBO's and Policing at football.........

It is all too fitting that nearly 60 years ago, George Orwell was 100% spot-on accurate about the burgeoning British police state. He may have been wrong with the year, but he was completely right about his predictions as to where things were going. According to a BBC article, there is now 1 surveillance camera for every 14 people in the UK.

So, George Orwell was right...this is a police state mentality and you are all just peacefully sitting by, sipping your ciders, watching the mighty hand of our inbred toff/snob led Government wrap its fingers around our throats! What are you going to do when they outlaw books as in George Orwell's '1984'??? Anti-Social 'ASBO' laws might seem innocent, but consider the kids with autism or aspergers who may engage in arm-flapping or other "weird" behaviour and are subject to these laws. This just isn't right. There will always be annoying neighbours and pesky kids. The answer is not to establish more constrictive laws but to provide more constructive activities.

Our people need to really stop abdicating their responsibility here. Do we really want to go back to being serfs totally subjugated by the inbred toffs and snobs that are our lawyers? We are now well on our way and this we see at football where we now have to sit down and be quiet lest some Gestapo has us kicked out for singing and standing.

[bucksred]

Socialism? You're having a laugh!?

Todays notion of Socialism has become so distored and abused by todays governments. They've taken the name and dragged it with them into their centre right capitalist agenda to manufacture the illusion (or delusion depending if your stupid enough to buy into it) that we have a choice between a democatic socialist welfare state or right wing conservatism.

The current government of Great Britian bears little resemblance to Socialism at all. You're strange. Where's the sun?

so, just how would you define it then? The Union of Soviet Socialist republics? Cuba? Peoples Republic of China, Socialist Republic of Vietnam? Robert Mugabe's Socialist policies in Zimbabwe, or Neto's in Angola, Machel's in Mozambique? Kuanda, Nyerere? Pol Pot? German Democratic Republic? Those countries have all used the word "socialist in their time in power. If you'd care to look at your rather large southern neighbour, Gerhard Schroeser was a socialist and helped his country to record level of unemployment last seen in Weimar Germany (And I aint talking about the basket case East Germany, but the formerly prosperous West Germany.

Can I assume you, are against your countries commitment to Iraq, Afghanistan, and the EU mission in Bosnia & Kosovo. If you are, you do your countries brave and highly competent armed forces (Far more than your socialist inclined neighbours). Socialism equals nanny states, unilateral disarmament, multiculturalism, hatred of history, tradition, and of the nation state. it equals appeasement, high taxes, low wages, low expectations, high unemployment, a government knows best attititude, and a contempt for its electorate (if it allows free and fair elections) and has more than its fair share of double standards...

when you can give me anything relevant which Socialism brings, then I'll take you seriously.

[Mr Mosquito]

so, just how would you define it then? The Union of Soviet Socialist republics? Cuba? Peoples Republic of China, Socialist Republic of Vietnam? Robert Mugabe's Socialist policies in Zimbabwe, or Neto's in Angola, Machel's in Mozambique? Kuanda, Nyerere? Pol Pot? German Democratic Republic? Those countries have all used the word "socialist in their time in power. If you'd care to look at your rather large southern neighbour, Gerhard Schroeser was a socialist and helped his country to record level of unemployment last seen in Weimar Germany (And I aint talking about the basket case East Germany, but the formerly prosperous West Germany.

Can I assume you, are against your countries commitment to Iraq, Afghanistan, and the EU mission in Bosnia & Kosovo. If you are, you do your countries brave and highly competent armed forces (Far more than your socialist inclined neighbours). Socialism equals nanny states, unilateral disarmament, multiculturalism, hatred of history, tradition, and of the nation state. it equals appeasement, high taxes, low wages, low expectations, high unemployment, a government knows best attititude, and a contempt for its electorate (if it allows free and fair elections) and has more than its fair share of double standards...

when you can give me anything relevant which Socialism brings, then I'll take you seriously.

Bucks, you're slipping - you mentioned Stalin's USSR but you forgot to mention Hitler's National Socialist Germany.

[fka dagest]

I do, but pray tell who will defend the hard earned freedoms we enjoy, if the Yanks don't? France? Germany, Italy, Spain? don't make me laugh. If you are so naive as to beleive there are not a load of hostile nations out there ready to take those freedoms away...

Democracy falls to totalitarian systems unless you have a strong leader, which can only be the US, AGAIN. seeing as gutless Europeans cant/wont/ aint capable

Politicians make the countries weak over there in Europe. Ours are pathetic, and Bush is a fool, but he has the guts to stand up and defend freedom, and you cant do that without taking the bad guys on on their level.

Gutless Europeans? That strikes me as bit of a generalisation.

:noexpression:

The problem is with your strong leader Bucks is that they're as happy to set-up murdering bastards or big exploiters in positions of power as they are to tackle other ones. Have you forgotten that the US saw ol' Saddam as a useful ally back in the 80s? It was about that time he was gassing the Kurds.

What about the US's support of Pol Pot, who had people shot for wearing glasses? Mind you the US were very good at training murderers to sabotage the democratically elected govt of the Sandinistas. And then there's Pinochet and the democratically elected govt of Allende. And let us not forget the US backing of the Argentinian generals who loved to drop people in the sea.

You see Bucks, the US recognises one principle only: US interests. They'll back any murdering ****wit who does as he's told. I think it was Franklin J. who was once said of the murdering dictator Somoza, "Somoza may be a son of a bitch, but he's our son of a bitch".

I must confess I've only browsed some of the other posts, but Moomin old chap, your suggestion that Europe needs more nationalism fills me with horror. Let's not for get that the pointless bloodbath of WW1 was driven on by a crass nationalism.

[Mr Mosquito]