Polish Defence Shield

[bucksred]

Gutless Europeans? That strikes me as bit of a generalisation.

:noexpression:

The problem is with your strong leader Bucks is that they're as happy to set-up murdering bastards or big exploiters in positions of power as they are to tackle other ones. Have you forgotten that the US saw ol' Saddam as a useful ally back in the 80s? It was about that time he was gassing the Kurds.

What about the US's support of Pol Pot, who had people shot for wearing glasses? Mind you the US were very good at training murderers to sabotage the democratically elected govt of the Sandinistas. And then there's Pinochet and the democratically elected govt of Allende. And let us not forget the US backing of the Argentinian generals who loved to drop people in the sea.

You see Bucks, the US recognises one principle only: US interests. They'll back any murdering ****wit who does as he's told. I think it was Franklin J. who was once said of the murdering dictator Somoza, "Somoza may be a son of a bitch, but he's our son of a bitch".

I must confess I've only browsed some of the other posts, but Moomin old chap, your suggestion that Europe needs more nationalism fills me with horror. Let's not for get that the pointless bloodbath of WW1 was driven on by a crass nationalism.

alright Dagest. Generalization? Really? all those gutless Europeans offered help to the US, AFTER 9/11, and under the NATO treaty, an attack on one, was an attack on all. The Yanks called in for help, and the backsliding began. Out of 24 NATO countries, only the US, Canada, Britain, Holland, Denmark, and Poland have picked up the baton and actually gone in to fight the Taleban & al Queda. Most of the rest have PRT's (Provincial Reconstruction teams) in various locations OUTSIDE where the fighting is, and categorically REFUSE to honour their responsibilities. Outside NATO, only Australia & New Zealand have done the same. Our gutless German "heroes" caused a major operation involving Norwegian and Afghan forces to be aborted, in the middle of a major fight, due to the fact Norwegian troops depended on German helicopters, to get them in and out. Said copters had to be back at base by 1600hrs local, as they are banned from flying at night, meaning the op had to be called off. leaving the Talebs in possession of the battlefield. The French have only deployed air assets since Sarkozy came to power, nixy ground troops or helo's. Italy and Spain both pulled their troops out the minute Socialist Governments won elections, leaving PRT's only. one of these NATO PRT's was nearly over run by Talebs due to the inept leadership, and restrictive national caveats, put in place

The gutless Europeans cant even get enough troops for the first EU Rapid Reaction Corps deployment to Darfur, only France has committed any significant troop numbers, this to prevent a genocide which has already claimed 500, 000 lives. African Union troops are utterly inadequate for the task, but europe as usual is nowhere to be found.

As for your continued attacks on the US: don't see you having a go at China for supporting Sudan, with arms, currently being used by the Janjuweed in Darfur, or the Russian excesses in Chechnya, or condemning the likes of Mugabe. Doubtless if you were around you would have been outside the US Embassy protesting at Vietnam, and equally likely ignoring the soviet occupation of Czechoslovakia the same year.

Every country can and will take actions to suit its own needs, always have, always will. the difference is the US is a) a democracy, fully functioning, b) a good ally to both Britain, and the ungrateful Europeans, c) if they wont defend the free world, who will?

You also fail to point out China, Russia, Iran, to name but three countries do exactly the same. but then the endemic anti Americanism which pervades every argument you make, prevents you from doing so.

Every action you mention about those nasty nasty bad evil Americans, can and is matched by those paragons of democracy, Soviet Union/Russia, and China (and France too, it helped hide the interhamwe after their delightful little attempt at ethnic cleansing)

you cannot deal with regimes like Saddam, Iran, Putin's Russia and Chinas by playing according to the rules. We helped Stalin, his evil empire caused chaos worldwide for the next 40 years, we helped the mujahadeen, and some of them turned on us. don't forget a significant number of Mujhadeen are still allies. The Pashtun ethnic group is the main Al Queda supporter.

It aint fair it aint pretty, but its a fact it has to be done

[Mr Mosquito]

Italy and Spain both pulled their troops out the minute Socialist Governments won elections, leaving PRT's only. one of these NATO PRT's was nearly over run by Talebs due to the inept leadership, and restrictive national caveats, put in place

The gutless Europeans cant even get enough troops for the first EU Rapid Reaction Corps deployment to Darfur, only France has committed any significant troop numbers, this to prevent a genocide which has already claimed 500, 000 lives. African Union troops are utterly inadequate for the task, but europe as usual is nowhere to be found.

What's this really got to do with Socialists? Russia is European and Russia was Socialist and what help did they get when they got bogged down fighting in Afghanistan during the late 1970's and early 1980's ???!!!! America trained the likes of Bin Laden to fight the USSR in Afghanistan !!!! If only life and international politics were that simple. The ancestors of the looneys now in control of Afghanistan fought the British Empire to a standstill during the nineteenth century. What makes you think a combined international force can succeed where the mighty empires that were the USSR and Great Britain failed ???!!!!! :noexpression:

[fka dagest]

alright Dagest. Generalization? Really? all those gutless Europeans offered help to the US, AFTER 9/11, and under the NATO treaty, an attack on one, was an attack on all. The Yanks called in for help, and the backsliding began. Out of 24 NATO countries, only the US, Canada, Britain, Holland, Denmark, and Poland have picked up the baton and actually gone in to fight the Taleban & al Queda. Most of the rest have PRT's (Provincial Reconstruction teams) in various locations OUTSIDE where the fighting is, and categorically REFUSE to honour their responsibilities. Outside NATO, only Australia & New Zealand have done the same. Our gutless German "heroes" caused a major operation involving Norwegian and Afghan forces to be aborted, in the middle of a major fight, due to the fact Norwegian troops depended on German helicopters, to get them in and out. Said copters had to be back at base by 1600hrs local, as they are banned from flying at night, meaning the op had to be called off. leaving the Talebs in possession of the battlefield. The French have only deployed air assets since Sarkozy came to power, nixy ground troops or helo's. Italy and Spain both pulled their troops out the minute Socialist Governments won elections, leaving PRT's only. one of these NATO PRT's was nearly over run by Talebs due to the inept leadership, and restrictive national caveats, put in place

The gutless Europeans cant even get enough troops for the first EU Rapid Reaction Corps deployment to Darfur, only France has committed any significant troop numbers, this to prevent a genocide which has already claimed 500, 000 lives. African Union troops are utterly inadequate for the task, but europe as usual is nowhere to be found.

As for your continued attacks on the US: don't see you having a go at China for supporting Sudan, with arms, currently being used by the Janjuweed in Darfur, or the Russian excesses in Chechnya, or condemning the likes of Mugabe. Doubtless if you were around you would have been outside the US Embassy protesting at Vietnam, and equally likely ignoring the soviet occupation of Czechoslovakia the same year.

Every country can and will take actions to suit its own needs, always have, always will. the difference is the US is a) a democracy, fully functioning, b) a good ally to both Britain, and the ungrateful Europeans, c) if they wont defend the free world, who will?

You also fail to point out China, Russia, Iran, to name but three countries do exactly the same. but then the endemic anti Americanism which pervades every argument you make, prevents you from doing so.

Every action you mention about those nasty nasty bad evil Americans, can and is matched by those paragons of democracy, Soviet Union/Russia, and China (and France too, it helped hide the interhamwe after their delightful little attempt at ethnic cleansing)

you cannot deal with regimes like Saddam, Iran, Putin's Russia and Chinas by playing according to the rules. We helped Stalin, his evil empire caused chaos worldwide for the next 40 years, we helped the mujahadeen, and some of them turned on us. don't forget a significant number of Mujhadeen are still allies. The Pashtun ethnic group is the main Al Queda supporter.

It aint fair it aint pretty, but its a fact it has to be done

Bucks your response is always fairly standard, by which I mean you always say, "What about the Soviet Union?", "What about China?" Well, what's the point in starting a post condemning a political entity that doesn't exist? Having a go at the Soviet Union makes as much sense as complaining about Ghengis Khan or Nero. China is a capitalist country and yes I think their trading with Sudan is appalling. There I've said it. Their treatment of the Tibetans is awful too. Mugabe's a power hungry ####### too. But the simple truth is that the only reason anyone in Europe or the US gives a **** about Zimbabwe is because of the white farmers. I don't remember anyone getting too upset about wars in DRC or Sierra Leone or Uganda.

You always try to paint me as a jingoistic anti-American. But the truth is that I personally subscribe to a few simple principles nothing more nothing less. If I see one country flouting international law, torturing people or dropping bombs I'll condemn them. Unfortunately with the US the cap fits. And the truth is that in the last 50 years no one can touch the US for lies, murder and blatant empire building. It's time you got over this naive view of the world's policeman.

As for military stuff, it holds as much interest for me as the game where people shuffle around metal soldiers on green cloth enacting dreary military campaigns from the past.

And another thing, as the alcohol slowly sinks in, give up this lark that democracy actually means anything. It's an elaborate, pointless sham. Even the democratically elected get shafted by the US. Look at Hamas, look at the Sandinistas look at Allende. Democracy is fine as long as you vote for the right people. Democracy in this country is a ###### joke and entirely dependent upon money and US approval. Why at present we have the equivalent of a one party state with factions in "blue" "red" and "yellow".

[Mr Mosquito]

Democracy in this country is a ###### joke and entirely dependent upon money and US approval. Why at present we have the equivalent of a one party state with factions in "blue" "red" and "yellow".

Democracy in this country consists of an unelected head of state - The Queen - there only by very dubious 'birthright'. An unelected chamber of assorted toff and snob inbreds - The House of Lords. The chamber we actually get to vote for - The House of Commons - is dominated by the royalist EU loving plutocratic Lib-Lab-Con one party state ****wits.

Whatever happened to freedom of speech and expression and legitimate protest you may ask !!!!!!! This country is now nothing more than a one party Police state as exemplified on ziderhead's by the topic below......

"Police Ban Safe Standing March, One for red goblin!!" by bringbacktherobin...

http://www.ziderheads.co.uk/ch/index.php?showtopic=1261

[bucksred]

Bucks your response is always fairly standard, by which I mean you always say, "What about the Soviet Union?", "What about China?" Well, what's the point in starting a post condemning a political entity that doesn't exist? Having a go at the Soviet Union makes as much sense as complaining about Ghengis Khan or Nero. China is a capitalist country and yes I think their trading with Sudan is appalling. There I've said it. Their treatment of the Tibetans is awful too. Mugabe's a power hungry ####### too. But the simple truth is that the only reason anyone in Europe or the US gives a **** about Zimbabwe is because of the white farmers. I don't remember anyone getting too upset about wars in DRC or Sierra Leone or Uganda.

You always try to paint me as a jingoistic anti-American. But the truth is that I personally subscribe to a few simple principles nothing more nothing less. If I see one country flouting international law, torturing people or dropping bombs I'll condemn them. Unfortunately with the US the cap fits. And the truth is that in the last 50 years no one can touch the US for lies, murder and blatant empire building. It's time you got over this naive view of the world's policeman.

As for military stuff, it holds as much interest for me as the game where people shuffle around metal soldiers on green cloth enacting dreary military campaigns from the past.

And another thing, as the alcohol slowly sinks in, give up this lark that democracy actually means anything. It's an elaborate, pointless sham. Even the democratically elected get shafted by the US. Look at Hamas, look at the Sandinistas look at Allende. Democracy is fine as long as you vote for the right people. Democracy in this country is a ###### joke and entirely dependent upon money and US approval. Why at present we have the equivalent of a one party state with factions in "blue" "red" and "yellow".

Get in the real world. We as humans have always had leaders, and the led. We have "democracy" as you describe it and we have always had authoritarian leaders of many hues. The authoritarians win, when the "democracies" fail to stand up for their rights. THAT means not playing by your precious "rules". That is how the human race has always been and will always be.

For the record EVERY genocide and corrupt regime in Africa, means summat to me. To you sanctimonious Europeans it means jack. Typically European in your inaccurate assumptions about Africa.

Democracy is the exercise of the right to vote. Hitler, Stalin, Chairman Mao, and Pol Pot were all elected. They however didn't follow any interest in their own people. The US does nominally pay respect to that rule of law, wether you think its a "true democracy" or not. all the bad guys for time immemorial singularly fail to do so. A lot of the good guys go under because they do not have the wherewithal to do so.

Bringing up the Soviet Union and China is a valid point as many of your list of American "crimes" took place during the period both regimes were equally active, and hostile to the free world. Your list after all goes back 50 years. China is a dictatorship. Remember Tienamen Square? and please don't insult my intelligence by saying their rapidly growing armed forces is to protect them from the Evil empire of the US. I have seen the reality of Chinese democracy. They keep Mugabe in power, among others. They are a state quite possibly more ruthless than the US will ever be, and will wield more economic power than the US ever did

People like Al Queda, Talebs, Janjuweed (The main threats at THIS moment in time)et al these days, wont play by your naive ways. You have to respond to fire with fire. you can of course use subtlety, rather than brute force. something the Americans don't do very well, and one reason why the British nation and a lot of its former colonies have thrived.

thats why you have the military you patently despise. We need them when people of your standing views cant do anymore jaw jaw, and it needs sorting out. In todays world it always means war, of varying sizes and durations, with various tools and disciplines, some cuddly feely, others utterly ruthless.

There have always been soldiers, and there always will be. In caveman times the men defended their group. We have developed, so has the role of soldiers.

You and the American nation share a touching naivety in your respective world views. I have seen somewhat more of the reality than I have wished to, and you'll forgive me if I regard your views in somewhat less than positive light, probably rather as you regard mine.

I prefer to trust my experiences than yours.

and for the record I don't get drunk. It dulls the mind. been there got that t shirt. It aint big it aint clever.

[bucksred]

Bucks, you're slipping - you mentioned Stalin's USSR but you forgot to mention Hitler's National Socialist Germany.

Ya got me there Gobbers, I did didnt I. One point to the Goblin!!! :laugh: :laugh:

[Philip Belgrave]

No, socialism in Europe became stronger.

It's well known that the ideology of the left ignores national boundaries, and in the modern day the left see the EU as a way of creating a socialist collective. What worries me as the idiots that see this idea as realistic ignore Europe's troubled past. Branding everyone "European" ignores that fact that it is made up of vastly different peoples.

I'm hoping the creation of a sovereign Kosovo sees the Flemish, Basques, Scots and Welsh also move toward independence, something would see a rise of nationalism in Europe, something that is badly needed.

You only need see the racism in France and Germany to see that multicultural socialist societies will never be harmonious. Indeed in the last 60 years the left and the trade unions have changed their tune, as in 1940's Scotland they led the cries to kick out the Poles following the war.

A most interesting discussion, but your posting seems to contradict itself."A rise of Nationalism in Europe,something that is badly needed". Surely you can't be serious. Prior to 1945 your continent was torn asunder by rampant nationalism culminating in two horrific World Wars. It seems to me that the one indisputable blessing that the European Community has brought is peace, at least, between its members. Norman Angell has finally achieved vindication a hundred years down the track. One thing not needed , I would have thought,is further "balkanisation",. . The cultures of the Basques, Welsh,. Scots and the rest are strong and resilient enough not to require the trappings of individual political "independence".

[Mr Mosquito]

It seems to me that the one indisputable blessing that the European Community has brought is peace, at least, between its members.

The idea of the original EU - as founded in the 1950's - was to tie the industrial powers of Western Germany, the low countries and France together in an economic alliance to lessen the likelihood of another European war. This indeed was a blessing but I can't help feeling that the sudden recent entries of so many Eastern European nations into the EU will ultimately unbalance and destroy the EU. 'A Polish defence shield' maybe being seen as a threat by the Russians so that they remilitarize.

[Mr Mosquito]

BBC

So, when the US gets bored with installing Latin American "tin pot" military dictators, spraying chemicals on coca growers or re-ordering the Middle East according to its own whims it resorts to upsetting Europe again. Will there ever be an end to the "Evil Empire"?

Answers have now been found !!!!!!!

World Policeman and self serving plutocrat Tony Blair wasn't acting alone for 10 years but had the help of fellow 'Neo-liberalists' in the United States and the European Union in illegally re-organising nation states. The 'Polish defence shield' seems to be a small part of this plan whereby the US and EU can let their ideologies achieve world domination.....

"Chossudovsky's work also reveals that the real head of the Bosnian government, the High Representative, and the head of the Bosnian Central Bank are both foreigners that are hand-picked by the European Union, the U.S., and the International Monetary Fund (IMF). This is a clear re-enactment of a colonial administration."

That excerpt above is from the link below as discovered by Herr Edward Elizabeth Hitler of the ziderheads message board. Well done Herr Hitler for finding such a brilliant article as per the link below......

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?con...;articleId=8132

[The ghost of Justin Fashanu]

Gobbers, I'm going to bite on this one - the foreign policy wasn't neo-liberal, it was neo-conservative, but I bet you know that anyways!

A true Neo-Liberalist foreign policy would try to prevent wars by bringing economies closer together (much like war in Western Europe is now unthinkable because of the EU)

And Dagest, why insinuate that Bucks was drinking, attack the post not the poster or you'll lack credibility. Plus we all know with him being a neo-con he doesn't drink

Gobbers, I suggest you look up the book by Mark Leonard entitled "Why Europe will rule the 21st Century" - It could well be an eye opener for you with regards to the EU's policies.

All we need now is a strong EU head of state. I suggest one (soon to be Sir) Anthony Blair.

[Mr Mosquito]

[fka dagest]

Gobbers, I'm going to bite on this one - the foreign policy wasn't neo-liberal, it was neo-conservative, but I bet you know that anyways!

A true Neo-Liberalist foreign policy would try to prevent wars by bringing economies closer together (much like war in Western Europe is now unthinkable because of the EU)

And Dagest, why insinuate that Bucks was drinking, attack the post not the poster or you'll lack credibility. Plus we all know with him being a neo-con he doesn't drink

Gobbers, I suggest you look up the book by Mark Leonard entitled "Why Europe will rule the 21st Century" - It could well be an eye opener for you with regards to the EU's policies.

All we need now is a strong EU head of state. I suggest one (soon to be Sir) Anthony Blair.

I wasn't insinuating anything. I was merely enjoying a glass or two of port that's all. After all I'm the gutless, patronising, European, drunk according to Bucks.

[Mr Mosquito]

Gobbers, I suggest you look up the book by Mark Leonard entitled "Why Europe will rule the 21st Century" - It could well be an eye opener for you with regards to the EU's policies.

Mark Leonard argues in "Why Europe Will Rule the 21st Century" that Europe's strength comes from the fact that it is not a nation but a "network that is bound together by laws and regulations". :noexpression: ....looks like I'll have to read the book.

[bucksred]

I wasn't insinuating anything. I was merely enjoying a glass or two of port that's all. After all I'm the gutless, patronising, European, drunk according to Bucks.

No, the words your looking for are naive, misguided, and patronising, and self evidently a European, as you come from the continent of Europe. You clearly aren't gutless arguing your point so doggedly

I don't assume you are a drunk. That was a reference to the fact, I have been a drunk, and found it decidedly unpleasant, and gave it up

[Mr Mosquito]

I don't assume you are a drunk. That was a reference to the fact, I have been a drunk, and found it decidedly unpleasant, and gave it up

That's why I'm so doggedly anti European Union. If the EU Germans get their way look below as to how they may make us serve our beer !!!!! :noexpression: I don't care what kind of beer it is, it ain't going to taste the same served this way!! .......

[bucksred]

That's why I'm so doggedly anti European Union. If the EU Germans get their way look below as to how they may make us serve our beer !!!!! :noexpression: I don't care what kind of beer it is, it ain't going to taste the same served this way!! .......

That, Gobbers, is quality!!!. I love their bier, its the people over there who are wierd!!

Keep up the humerous posts mate.

[Mr Mosquito]

[Philip Belgrave]

The idea of the original EU - as founded in the 1950's - was to tie the industrial powers of Western Germany, the low countries and France together in an economic alliance to lessen the likelihood of another European war. This indeed was a blessing but I can't help feeling that the sudden recent entries of so many Eastern European nations into the EU will ultimately unbalance and destroy the EU. 'A Polish defence shield' maybe being seen as a threat by the Russians so that they remilitarize.

Agreed wholeheartedly. It seems that NATO is going out of its way to provoke the Russians. A recent top level conference was pointedly held in Bucharest as if to underline the triumph of NATO over the former Warsaw Pact:- bound to stir-up Putin & Co.

And to what end ?

[Mr Mosquito]

Agreed wholeheartedly. It seems that NATO is going out of its way to provoke the Russians. A recent top level conference was pointedly held in Bucharest as if to underline the triumph of NATO over the former Warsaw Pact:- bound to stir-up Putin & Co.

And to what end ?

It's a very worrying situation, the following paragraphs are very poignant and relevant.....

"The answer is: Anglo-American and Franco-German interests represented through the E.U. and NATO are the forces behind self-serving "exceptionalism" the same force that permitted the Nazis to believe that they could colonize Eastern Europe and the Eurasian Heartland without guilt.

American and European Union leaders have argued that the Serbs are no longer morally capable of managing the affairs of Kosovo. What gives the governments of the U.S., Germany, France, and Britain any moral capability after years of blood baths and a deficit in credibility? If these claims where based on any principle then what about the case of the Palestinians? Does Israel have any moral capability to occupy the Palestinians? Yet, the occupation continues. Ironically it is not Serbian troops who occupy Kosovo, but NATO troops and tanks."

Source: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?con...;articleId=8132

[bucksred]

Agreed wholeheartedly. It seems that NATO is going out of its way to provoke the Russians. A recent top level conference was pointedly held in Bucharest as if to underline the triumph of NATO over the former Warsaw Pact:- bound to stir-up Putin & Co.

And to what end ?

And possibly to reassure NATO members they wont be abandoned, as per 1939.. just a thought, as they are on the front line of NATO

[Mr Mosquito]

And possibly to reassure NATO members they wont be abandoned, as per 1939.. just a thought, as they are on the front line of NATO

With the French and the Germans having launched major invasions into Russia in the last 200 years, how do you think the Russians feel with the German and French dominated European Union now right on their borders ?????!!!! :noexpression:

[bucksred]

With the French and the Germans having launched major invasions into Russia in the last 200 years, how do you think the Russians feel with the German and French dominated European Union now right on their borders ?????!!!! :noexpression:

Personally I don't give a flying one what Ivan thinks. The French & German occupations lasted 6 months, and four years respectively, the Russian occupation of Poland (and the rest of Eastern Europe)lasted 40 years, and was their second attempt in the 20th Century. Personally, I would trust a Pole, Czech or Hungarian, even a damn German more than I would trust a Russian.

And you have made one minor mistake in your assertion about Franco German domination of Europe, you should have said French domination, as the Germans do exactly what their French masters say. Oh and pay for it. to the benefit of France.

Besides you forgot the Anglo/French occupation of the Crimea in 1854. You know the one which led to the Charge of The Light Brigade, and ultimately stopped friend Ivan occupying Turkey.

[Mr Mosquito]

Personally I don't give a flying one what Ivan thinks.

The Russians suffered about 20 million civilian deaths as a result of the German NAZI invasion of 1941 hence their post World War 2 foreign policy of not trusting the West.

Forget banging a drum about political philosophies - that's the way it is.

[ookman]

Just stumbled across this thread, WOW what a lot of words!

can anyone just put it in a nutshell for me whats been said

my attention span is not that great

plus i'm getting bleary eyed, friday night is JD night

[bucksred]

The Russians suffered about 20 million civilian deaths as a result of the German NAZI invasion of 1941 hence their post World War 2 foreign policy of not trusting the West.

Forget banging a drum about political philosophies - that's the way it is.

And the Poles ,after losing almost a million dead to Germany, lost over a million to the Russians (Their so called "allies"). like I say Russki, or Pole. Poland allways up. Russkis aint no better than Krauts. Poland are our allies, now and then. So called allies like Russkis swallowed half of Poland, our main reason for going to war in the first place

Oh by the way your precious Russki body count was much much higher due to Russki stupidity in continuing human wave assaults on well armed opponents, not to say Russki generalski dicking it up, allowing millions of Russkis to get surrounded and defeated in detail, and Russkis ignoring information Nmetski attacks imminnent.

Your the one banging a political drum, not me. just reminding you of Russki duplicity, not unusual it has to be said. Like Krauts Russkis routinely break every rule in the bookski. Eminently suited to each other.

[fka dagest]

And the Poles ,after losing almost a million dead to Germany, lost over a million to the Russians (Their so called "allies"). like I say Russki, or Pole. Poland allways up. Russkis aint no better than Krauts. Poland are our allies, now and then. So called allies like Russkis swallowed half of Poland, our main reason for going to war in the first place

Oh by the way your precious Russki body count was much much higher due to Russki stupidity in continuing human wave assaults on well armed opponents, not to say Russki generalski dicking it up, allowing millions of Russkis to get surrounded and defeated in detail, and Russkis ignoring information Nmetski attacks imminnent.

Your the one banging a political drum, not me. just reminding you of Russki duplicity, not unusual it has to be said. Like Krauts Russkis routinely break every rule in the bookski. Eminently suited to each other.

Your use of 'russkis' and 'krauts', unfortunately does little to support your argument and merely confirms my suspicion that you're hopelessly 'prejudiced' and 'right-wing'. You always seem remarkably unconcerned about the heavy death toll the Russians faced; in fact your posts even suggests it was their own fault. It's worth remembering that in any social hierarchy a small minority dictate the fate of the vast majority. I think it's fair to say that 99.9% of these people had little choice in the events that consumed them. I find the way you dismiss such loss of Russian life fairly repulsive.

I feel your suggestion that Poland has always been the bullied by Russia is fairly wide of the mark too. It's worth remembering that the Polish occupied Moscow in the 17th century and installed their own candidates as Tsars. The relationship between Russia and Poland is far more historic and complex than your prevailing "Cold War" perspective appreciates.

[bucksred]

Your use of 'russkis' and 'krauts', unfortunately does little to support your argument and merely confirms my suspicion that you're hopelessly 'prejudiced' and 'right-wing'. You always seem remarkably unconcerned about the heavy death toll the Russians faced; in fact your posts even suggests it was their own fault. It's worth remembering that in any social hierarchy a small minority dictate the fate of the vast majority. I think it's fair to say that 99.9% of these people had little choice in the events that consumed them. I find the way you dismiss such loss of Russian life fairly repulsive.

I feel your suggestion that Poland has always been the bullied by Russia is fairly wide of the mark too. It's worth remembering that the Polish occupied Moscow in the 17th century and installed their own candidates as Tsars. The relationship between Russia and Poland is far more historic and complex than your prevailing "Cold War" perspective appreciates.

Right I'll nail two things for you. I loathe Russia/Soviet Union because my country had to put up with their loathesome "liberation techniques- to whit cutting off of lips, tongues, of so called "collaberators", chucking of babies on burning houses, kidnapping children from schools to take them to "Re-Education camps" russian casualties in WW2, are their own damn fault. German troops captured 5,000,00 approximately in the first six months due to diabolical leadership from their army commanders, and during the entire war their wasteful human wave assaults, cost far more lives than they needed to. This I have heard from German veterans of that war- they couldn't and wouldn't waste lives like that. It took till summer 1942 for any credible evacuation plan of military let alone civilain personnell. And don't forget they attacked Finland in 1939, a DEMOCRACY no less

I have no love lost for Germans anymore than Goblin does due to their antics between 1933 and 1945, and I damn well resent their post war predeliction lecturing the US and Britain about anything to do with war, and all its works.

I am not right wing as you put it. Most of my views are pretty liberal, but I cannot and will not accept FASCISTS, NAZI'S, COMBAT 18, BNP, NF in any shape or form. My dear old dad taught me one thing well, that those kind of people are comtemptable. Worse then the Reds and all their fellow travellers. Predjudiced to them, yeah, and what of it? I don't do appeasement, to either evil side. It fails every single time.

Quite right about Poland. long time ago though. since then Poland was repeatedly raped by Prussia/Germany, (and inflicted equal devastation to be fair), and Russia in particular. Austria-Hungary also joined that party. Poland disappeared in the 17th Century, and was reformed by Napoleon, as the Duchy of Warsaw. It soon disappeared back into Russia, when Napoleon was defeated. But Poles loathe Russkis and Krauts almost as much. We all know why they hate Krauts. work out for yourself the reason they hate Russkis. A start for you: the Katyn massacre of 1941, which even Ivan has admitted finally after almost 50 years did take place, and the abandoning of the Krajowa Armija in Warsaw in 1944, to the tender mercies of the SS. Even the Germans don't beleive the bulls hit story their counteroffensive in the area stopped the Red Army- that "offensive" was to create a front line, from the shattered remains of the front ripped apart in in Early July with the loss of 350, 000 POW's and 300, 000 dead, out of 850,000 (Just like the Russians earlier the Nazis didnt evacuate their troops in good time either)

[Mr Mosquito]

russian casualties in WW2, are their own damn fault.

I really can't agree with that. You're entitled to your opinion but it was only a matter of time before NAZI Germany would break the treaty between the USSR and Germany and invade Russia. The invasion of Russia was a stated aim in Hitler's testament 'Mein Kampf'. Roosevelt and Churchill were in no way Communist but the pair of them were unanimous in praising Stalin and the Red Army for defeating the NAZI 'mechanized barbarians'. Forget politics, the Russian civilians bore the brunt of the ferocity of NAZI Germany - thank God it wasn't our parents/grandparents that were invaded or we most likely wouldn't be here.

[Philip Belgrave]

I really can't agree with that. You're entitled to your opinion but it was only a matter of time before NAZI Germany would break the treaty between the USSR and Germany and invade Russia. The invasion of Russia was a stated aim in Hitler's testament 'Mein Kampf'. Roosevelt and Churchill were in no way Communist but the pair of them were unanimous in praising Stalin and the Red Army for defeating the NAZI 'mechanized barbarians'. Forget politics, the Russian civilians bore the brunt of the ferocity of NAZI Germany - thank God it wasn't our parents/grandparents that were invaded or we most likely wouldn't be here.

Absolutely: it's been said that World War II was won by British Brains, American (industrial) Muscle and Russian Blood.

[bucksred]

I really can't agree with that. You're entitled to your opinion but it was only a matter of time before NAZI Germany would break the treaty between the USSR and Germany and invade Russia. The invasion of Russia was a stated aim in Hitler's testament 'Mein Kampf'. Roosevelt and Churchill were in no way Communist but the pair of them were unanimous in praising Stalin and the Red Army for defeating the NAZI 'mechanized barbarians'. Forget politics, the Russian civilians bore the brunt of the ferocity of NAZI Germany - thank God it wasn't our parents/grandparents that were invaded or we most likely wouldn't be here.

American, and Commonwealth casualties were far far lower, even if you allow the fact their numbers involved were lower. at no point have you disagreed with the basic premise that Popov casualties were their own damn fault. Captuured personnel in three major pockets cleared by the Wehrmacht are Kiev, 650,000 POW's, Vyasma, 500,000, and Smolensk, 350,000. This doesnt include the KIA's sustained. soviet intelligence did pick up evidence German invasion was coming, not least from German, Slovak, Hungarian and Romanian deserters. they chose to ignore all this info, plus information supplied via Ultra, by British sources. their own agents in Poland also picked up on this.

Even if you allow for the "surprise" assault, they still wasted huge numbers of lives at Kiev (September 1941), and Vyasma (October-November 1941.) among many battles

they didn't start riding German assault punches till august 1942, well on the way to Stalingrad. When the Fritzes did the same dumb thing, it cost them 382,000 Killed and POWs. Did the dumb Popovs learn? did they hell: They kept assaulting the retreating Germans, despite growing intelligence from both Britain, and their own intelligence, and lost 300,000 more in the last succesfull offensive in Russia, by Germany's last reserves. Following their stunning success at Kursk in July, then then wasted many thousands more during the break out campaign..

Even at the end of the war Zhukov, cost thousands of lives at Seelow Heights, launching human wave assaults on the strongest point of the Fritz line, even launching tank armies on the still unsubdued defences. this caused Zhukov to lose the right to take Berlin on his own. Koniev who did it in masterful fashion, further south, breaking clean through, then won the right to take the Fascist beasts lair.

And Russkis were still deserting their Red Army while these last battles of the war were taking place.Wonder why that could be? I mean I can understand Fritzes stacking it, but members of the largest field force in the world, one that fought from Stalingrad, to Berlin. Why would they do that? Even deserted in the hell of the battle for Berlin.