Is this the true definition of PROGRESS?

[Curr Avon]

When your League position says higher, but your performance level says liar.

[CotswoldRed]

No. Its not as binary as that. 

Unless you're in the camp that says "we started well last season so we'll probably star well next season". 

I'm more inclined to think our performances will be closer to more recent performances which will land us in trouble. 

Unless LJ can provide a decent explanation as to why that's not likely to be the case.....

[1960maaan]

Our early season good form was better this year and our football at times was brilliant. Our bad spell was not quite as bad, but longer. Also the coach seemed to hit panic mode by trying a poor imitation of long ball. Not sure what that adds up too at all. Can’t be too positive at the moment, with the prospect of losing some good players things are hard to judge.

[LondonBristolian]

I honestly don't know what I expect next season.

I can easily see a scenario where we keep (or replace) key players, make the right signings, learn our lessons and are a good top-half side challenging for the play-offs.

I can also see a scenario where don't arrest the slide, lose key players, new signings don't work and we have a tough year next year.

I can't pretend I'm ending the season feeling overwhelmingly positive but I'm open to seeing what happens over the summer and beginning of next season before drawing any firm conclusions about the direction we are heading. 

[italian dave]

Last two seasons have been a bit like a drawn match. If you're 2-0 up, and it finishes 2-2 then it feels deflated, more like a defeat. If you're 0-2 down and it finishes 2-2 it feels positive and more like a win.

I don't think league position is everything; l had a look at Alan Dicks' record in getting us from the bottom of the second tier and into the top tier. Not only was it slow and steady, but there were hiccups along the way. I think his third season we finished significantly lower than the year before. 

I agree with @LondonBristolian that this summer will be important, but in addition to departures and new signings I'd say it's also about how we bring on some of our existing players. Players like Eliasson, Kelly, Vyner have potentially got a big part to play next season, in the same way as we brought through the likes of Paterson and Brownhill and Reid this time last year. And who'll replace them on the fringes, Bakinson for example?

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

2014/15:  Promotion from League One.

2015/16:  Championship 18th.  FA Cup 3rd round.  League Cup 1st round (lost to lower division opponents).

2016/17:  Championship 17th.  FA Cup 4th round.  League Cup 4th round.

2017/18:  Championship ?10th.  FA Cup 3rd round.  League Cup semi-finals.  Beat Man Utd and three other premiership teams along the way.

In what way can that not be regarded as progress?

[havanatopia]

Law of averages says momentum counts for a significant proportion of our results; stating the obvious. So I think unless there is a hugely positive close season; few or none of Citys best leaving and some key ones coming in, the club will continue to slide. Johnson has already alluded to it being tough.

This close season is the most important by far for Lee Johson's tenure to date. And not only does he have to oversee aforementioned but he also needs to find and correct the failings of the last 4 months. He has a huge challenge in my opinion to keep his job; if we are bottom 6 or 7 by October well, you tell me what should happen.

The days of a patient wait and see, similar to the Alan Dicks tenure in the 2nd tier, are long gone. Financially, it would be suicide to sit on indifference for 5 or 6 years.

[Andy082005]

3 minutes ago, havanatopia said:

Law of averages says momentum counts for a significant proportion of our results; stating the obvious. So I think unless there is a hugely positive close season; few or none of Citys best leaving and some key ones coming in, the club will continue to slide. Johnson has already alluded to it being tough.

This close season is the most important by far for Lee Johson's tenure to date. And not only does he have to oversee aforementioned but he also needs to find and correct the failings of the last 4 months. He has a huge challenge in my opinion to keep his job; if we are bottom 6 or 7 by October well, you tell me what should happen.

The days of a patient wait and see, similar to the Alan Dicks tenure in the 2nd tier, are long gone. Financially, it would be suicide to sit on indifference for 5 or 6 years.

I have got zero confidence that he can take us to the next level. I genuinely cannot see performances and results improving come August...as I have zero faith in him recruiting the right calibre of player 

Fingers crossed he gets the boot before he drags us into a relegation scrap

 

[Coxy27]

8 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

2014/15:  Promotion from League One.

2015/16:  Championship 18th.  FA Cup 3rd round.  League Cup 1st round (lost to lower division opponents).

2016/17:  Championship 17th.  FA Cup 4th round.  League Cup 4th round.

2017/18:  Championship ?10th.  FA Cup 3rd round.  League Cup semi-finals.  Beat Man Utd and three other premiership teams along the way.

In what way can that not be regarded as progress?

It's like going to a casino with £10, winning £100, then losing £60 of it.

You're in profit, but there's an overwhelming sense of what could have been.

If you then go back the next day trying to right that feeling and lose another £60 - Despite progress overall the previous day, you're worse off.

Big job now to make sure we don't carry that feeling over the summer. Clubs often struggle with this when losing in the playoffs as well.

[MarkRed!]

I have been very negative on here in the past, but we have clearly made progress this season. I was firmly in the LJ out crowd.

A 10th place finish and good cup run is an excellent season. Seriously, what did people expect. It could have been a fabulous season but we simply were not good enough to get over the line. I am sure we will learn from this but in reality look at the clubs above us - Wolves, Cardiff, Derby, Middlesborough, Aston Villa, Fulham. All have recent PL experience and at least 3 of these have had parachute payments recently. To be competing with clubs with more £ (than SL is willing to be spent) than us is a great effort. I think the club have done well and hopefully progression will continue next season. Time to give it a rest about LJ. That argument has been done so many times. He is the manager, he has a 49% win ratio and in a tough league that is pretty good. Onwards and upwards. 

[frenchred]

Colin was unfortunately correct!

Both Lee and his Dad talk a good game and..................er............that's about it!

[pommers65]

You said we were def making the playoffs after one win....more nonsense

 

[LondonBristolian]

5 minutes ago, frenchred said:

Colin was unfortunately correct!

Both Lee and his Dad talk a good game and..................er............that's about it!

Maybe. But I first watched City in 1989/1990. I think it is very hard to make a case for Gary Johnson NOT being the best manager we have had in that time. And I think it is very hard to find an argument for not putting LJ in the top five, probably top four. You could argue we've had some poor managers, and that would be true, but the reality is that - based on both our history and the experience of other clubs in the Championship who changed manager this season - we are far more likely to replace LJ with a less successful manager than a more successful one. 

[frenchred]

1 minute ago, LondonBristolian said:

Maybe. But I first watched City in 1989/1990. I think it is very hard to make a case for Gary Johnson NOT being the best manager we have had in that time. And I think it is very hard to find an argument for not putting LJ in the top five, probably top four. You could argue we've had some poor managers, and that would be true, but the reality is that - based on both our history and the experience of other clubs in the Championship who changed manager this season - we are far more likely to replace LJ with a less successful manager than a more successful one. 

I been watching since 1976, and I agree with you to a point which all leads to how the club is managed at the top.  I seen Alan Dicks, terry Cooper and recently Steve Cotterill who I believe were all better than the current incumbent and his father

[Merrick's Marvels]

3 minutes ago, frenchred said:

Colin was unfortunately correct!

Both Lee and his Dad talk a good game and..................er............that's about it!

Whereas Colin talks shite and plays shite.

I'm no LJ lover but the parameters of what he's being asked to do at City and what Colin is being asked to do at Cardiff are so different as to make Warnock's comment nothing but cheap points scoring.   

[frenchred]

1 minute ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Whereas Colin talks shite and plays shite.

I'm no LJ lover but the parameters of what he's being asked to do at City and what Colin is being asked to do at Cardiff are so different as to make Warnock's comment nothing but cheap points scoring.   

I would have thought they were both asked to do the same, get promotion or as close to it as you can, more than one way to skin a cat and our is still in full fur!

[LondonBristolian]

17 minutes ago, havanatopia said:

Law of averages says momentum counts for a significant proportion of our results; stating the obvious. So I think unless there is a hugely positive close season; few or none of Citys best leaving and some key ones coming in, the club will continue to slide. Johnson has already alluded to it being tough.

This close season is the most important by far for Lee Johson's tenure to date. And not only does he have to oversee aforementioned but he also needs to find and correct the failings of the last 4 months. He has a huge challenge in my opinion to keep his job; if we are bottom 6 or 7 by October well, you tell me what should happen.

The days of a patient wait and see, similar to the Alan Dicks tenure in the 2nd tier, are long gone. Financially, it would be suicide to sit on indifference for 5 or 6 years.

Maybe but we have to be realistic that:

a) We are far more likely to spend the next 5 or 6 years outside the Premier League than inside of it.

b) When we leave the division, we are more likely to do so downwards rather than upwards.

That is not to be negative but we are in a division full of clubs that generate far more money than we do, that find it easier to attract players than we do due to their history and location and competing against clubs with ex-Premier League players and parachute payments. We are also competing against clubs that can attract a higher pedigree of manager than we can. Changing manager is not going to guarantee promotion. We can do our best to compete but if we make reaching the Premier league the only criteria we can judge a manager on, the likelihood is we'll not rate any manager we are likely to appoint. 

[phantom]

20 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

2014/15:  Promotion from League One.

2015/16:  Championship 18th.  FA Cup 3rd round.  League Cup 1st round (lost to lower division opponents).

2016/17:  Championship 17th.  FA Cup 4th round.  League Cup 4th round.

2017/18:  Championship ?10th.  FA Cup 3rd round.  League Cup semi-finals.  Beat Man Utd and three other premiership teams along the way.

In what way can that not be regarded as progress?

For me definite progress as per above, but like when GJ was the boss there will always be this "What if?" element to the season

Sadly on both occasions we recruited poorly during January and in both season we lost the impetus and momentum to gain what (At the time was looking like being a promotion season)

The sad thing the poor recruitment this January etc, has resulted in us nosediving down the league in relegation form

[phantom]

2 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Whereas Colin talks shite and plays shite.

But has a proven record of getting sides promoted time and time again

[Merrick's Marvels]

Just now, frenchred said:

I would have thought they were both asked to do the same, get promotion or as close to it as you can, more than one way to skin a cat and our is still in full fur!

Maybe at Cardiff. Johnson's remit is a little wider than that and the emphasis on gaining promotion asap not as pronounced. Imo. 

[Merrick's Marvels]

2 minutes ago, phantom said:

But has a proven record of getting sides promoted time and time again

Undoubtedly so, if that's the be all and end all of the job. Imo Johnson has been told that's not the be all and end all, eg. if he continues to turn Academy players into assets that can be flogged for tens of millions of pounds, the owner will be very satisfied. 

Of course, he would have to deliver acceptable League results too but if City finished top half, knocking around the play offs for the next 5 years, whilst selling several Bobby Reids for millions of pounds, I believe the owner would be satisfied.

Just my gut feeling. Not something I'm entirely comfortable with either. We shall see.

[phantom]

Agree 100% @Merrick's Marvels ^^^^^

[krxs97]

34 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

2014/15:  Promotion from League One.

2015/16:  Championship 18th.  FA Cup 3rd round.  League Cup 1st round (lost to lower division opponents).

2016/17:  Championship 17th.  FA Cup 4th round.  League Cup 4th round.

2017/18:  Championship ?10th.  FA Cup 3rd round.  League Cup semi-finals.  Beat Man Utd and three other premiership teams along the way.

In what way can that not be regarded as progress?

Not as binary as that...

[Trueredsupporter]

12 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Undoubtedly so, if that's the be all and end all of the job. Imo Johnson has been told that's not the be all and end all, eg. if he continues to turn Academy players into assets that can be flogged for tens of millions of pounds, the owner will be very satisfied. 

Of course, he would have to deliver acceptable League results too but if City finished top half, knocking around the play offs for the next 5 years, whilst selling several Bobby Reids for millions of pounds, I believe the owner would be satisfied.

Just my gut feeling. Not something I'm entirely comfortable with either. We shall see.

If it was attached to a football style that is attractive is that wrong? 

Is losing tens of millions of pounds over seasons with no way of paying it back and not knocking about near the top half better?

[LondonBristolian]

23 minutes ago, phantom said:

But has a proven record of getting sides promoted time and time again

He does but they are usually clubs with resources greater than ours. And they usually don't hang around for too long:

Scarborough FC - Fair enough, a good achievement and they established themselves as a league club for the next 12 years.

Notts County - genuinely impressive getting them into the top flight. However they went straight back down and Warnock was dismissed as the club were in danger of a second successive relegation.

Huddersfield - Good achivement - he quit straight after taking them up so not really fair to judge him for Huddersfield's subsequent record.

Plymouth- Struggled the following season, Warnock sacked. Plymouth relegated again the season after that.

Sheffield United - relegated when they were 10 points clear in March. Before long they were in League One.

QPR - one season in top flight, Warnock sacked. QPR straight back down. With three seasons had big financial problems.

Warnock gets teams promoted but he rarely either establishes them in the division above himself or leaves any substantial foundations successors can work. For short-term success, Warnock is your man. Is short-term success what we want?

 

[Im_over_ere]

Many base our 'progress' upon our poor run in form in the second half of the season; because it was poor many seem to suggest we have not made progress. It's very frustrating that our season was two very distinct halves, before and after Christmas.

 

Had City been bang 'average' throughout the entire season, never in the relegation zone, never in the promotion zone, then many might consider that we have made progress, being in a mid to high table position and free from a relegation scrap with a reasonable amount of games left. Also being bang average, our Jan signings may not be so poorly thought of (although I am not saying our thoughts of Kent and Diony are without foundation; for me Walsh still has potential).

So how do we progress next year? For me consistency would be progress, although we hope to be consistently good to excellent, and not poor to dismal. Now, I would happily settle for consistent performances, mid to high table placing, sneaking into 5th or 6th playoff spot.

[Merrick's Marvels]

28 minutes ago, Trueredsupporte said:

If it was attached to a football style that is attractive is that wrong? 

Is losing tens of millions of pounds over seasons with no way of paying it back and not knocking about near the top half better?

Nothing at all wrong with that so long as, at some point, we actually go for it - I'm comfortable with the fact it wasn't this season (it seems). 

The bit I'm not comfortable with is the idea that we can sell our best players year on year and maintain progress and with the idea the club seem to be pushing that promotion - or at least a sustained attempt at it - will be delivered at a time of the club's choosing, ie when they think we're "ready". Football doesn't tend to pan out like that.

As for the only alternative being to lose "tens of millions of pounds over seasons" - that will happen anyway! Just like at virtually every other club in the league. And if the idea so horrifies Guernsey, I have a suggestion - get promotion and get aboard the gravy train - at the earliest opportunity!!

[Leveller]

25 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

He does but they are usually clubs with resources greater than ours. And they usually don't hang around for too long:

Scarborough FC - Fair enough, a good achievement and they established themselves as a league club for the next 12 years.

Notts County - genuinely impressive getting them into the top flight. However they went straight back down and Warnock was dismissed as the club were in danger of a second successive relegation.

Huddersfield - Good achivement - he quit straight after taking them up so not really fair to judge him for Huddersfield's subsequent record.

Plymouth- Struggled the following season, Warnock sacked. Plymouth relegated again the season after that.

Sheffield United - relegated when they were 10 points clear in March. Before long they were in League One.

QPR - one season in top flight, Warnock sacked. QPR straight back down. With three seasons had big financial problems.

Warnock gets teams promoted but he rarely either establishes them in the division above himself or leaves any substantial foundations successors can work. For short-term success, Warnock is your man. Is short-term success what we want?

 

Exactly my thoughts on his record.

For one reason or another he rarely  consolidates his successes. There are various possibilities / scenarios. Personality clashes, financial reasons (more money available elsewhere), a lack of commitment, boredom, or just that he gets found out at the highest level.

 

[LondonBristolian]

32 minutes ago, Leveller said:

Exactly my thoughts on his record.

For one reason or another he rarely  consolidates his successes. There are various possibilities / scenarios. Personality clashes, financial reasons (more money available elsewhere), a lack of commitment, boredom, or just that he gets found out at the highest level.

 

I think part of it is that he front-loads the investment on a short-term goal. Take the £6 million on Gary Madine, a 27 year old with a decent Championship scoring record who is very unlikely to cut it in the Premier League. Yes, they'll get over the line but he was never going to be a success in the top flight. Maybe they'll recoup that £6 million but effectively it is an amount of money that exceeds our all time record to sign a player who can do a job for four months. To me, it shows both Warnock's short-termism and the fact we are measuring ourselves against a club we simply cannot compete with financially. 

[Son of Fred]

1 hour ago, havanatopia said:

Law of averages says momentum counts for a significant proportion of our results; stating the obvious. So I think unless there is a hugely positive close season; few or none of Citys best leaving and some key ones coming in, the club will continue to slide. Johnson has already alluded to it being tough.

This close season is the most important by far for Lee Johson's tenure to date. And not only does he have to oversee aforementioned but he also needs to find and correct the failings of the last 4 months. He has a huge challenge in my opinion to keep his job; if we are bottom 6 or 7 by October well, you tell me what should happen.

The days of a patient wait and see, similar to the Alan Dicks tenure in the 2nd tier, are long gone. Financially, it would be suicide to sit on indifference for 5 or 6 years.

Hava,if we're bottem seven by Christmas Lee's present will be his payoff from Uncle Steve.....he will be toast ..