What has stopped City reaching the Prem League?

[reddogkev]

Cardiff, Bournemouth, Huddersfield, Brighton, Swansea, Stoke etc, etc.  You get the drift, just a few of the clubs that in my time have overtaken us and reached the top.

Granted, they are not all still there, but that's not the point.  We often talk about City never being in the Premier League, but there must be a tangible reason  why this has never happened.  We've not even had a rare one-off season like Barnsley or Bradford, even bloody Swindon Town - where you get smashed all season, but at least you've been there for the ride.

So what has truly stopped us?   When you consider the size of Bristol, It is a baffling question, I can't for one serious minute think it is down to SL, it must go deeper.  It seems highly unlikely that promotion will happen anytime soon, as the chances of LJ forging a promotion team at any point in his career looks extremely doubtful.  You can tell the type of manager who knows how to create a championship winning team, and as much as I support LJ, he isn't it.  At some stage in our future, we need to find our next Cotts - the guy who can create the type of team spirit and quality that ran amok in League One.

Will the Premier League ever happen for us?  Are we being stopped by football forces we cannot comprehend?  Interested to read all the responses and hopefully find the answer once and for all!

[jj77]

Getting enough wins throughout the season plays a big part. 

[BigTone]

2 minutes ago, reddogkev said:

Cardiff, Bournemouth, Huddersfield, Brighton, Swansea, Stoke etc, etc.  You get the drift, just a few of the clubs that in my time have overtaken us and reached the top.

Granted, they are not all still there, but that's not the point.  We often talk about City never being in the Premier League, but there must be a tangible reason  why this has never happened.  We've not even had a rare one-off season like Barnsley or Bradford, even bloody Swindon Town - where you get smashed all season, but at least you've been there for the ride.

So what has truly stopped us?   When you consider the size of Bristol, It is a baffling question, I can't for one serious minute think it is down to SL, it must go deeper.  It seems highly unlikely that promotion will happen anytime soon, as the chances of LJ forging a promotion team at any point in his career looks extremely doubtful.  You can tell the type of manager who knows how to create a championship winning team, and as much as I support LJ, he isn't it.  At some stage in our future, we need to find our next Cotts - the guy who can create the type of team spirit and quality that ran amok in League One.

Will the Premier League ever happen for us?  Are we being stopped by football forces we cannot comprehend?  Interested to read all the responses and hopefully find the answer once and for all!

We are shite

[Banjo Island]

A manager fit for purpose would be a step in the right direction

[Lrrr]

23 other teams wanting to get promoted maybe 

[reddogkev]

7 minutes ago, BigTone said:

We are shite

Tis is true, but weren't Bradford, Swindon, Barnsley, also just a little bit shite?

[CityCiderEd]

10 minutes ago, BigTone said:

At some stage in our future, we need to find our next Cotts - the guy who can create the type of team spirit and quality that ran amok in League One.

This,and a superb scouting and recruitment policy and a decent academy set-up. Currently there is only one in place.

[reddogkev]

6 minutes ago, hodge said:

23 other teams wanting to get promoted maybe 

But that doesn't stop the other teams I've mentioned being promoted, and I'm not just talking current times, also referencing the past.

[BRISTOL86]

Even when you assume a level plying field throughout the division - which it’s not - the fact is that the odds are significantly against you. 

24 into 3 doesn’t go. Even with assuming no disparity in resource every club has a 7 in 8 chance of failure to achieve that particular objective. 

The rest is really a cocktail of manager, players and in the likes of some of the smaller examples, a bit of good fortune too. Many of the clubs cited when this argument comes up are the exceptions not the rule and that’s easily overlooked. 

And with every passing year the financial disparity between the clubs that have been up there and those who haven’t grows, making the odds even less favourable. 

[reddogkev]

Just now, CityCiderEd said:

This,a superb scouting and recruitment policy and a decent academy set-up. Currently there is only one in place.

Wait a minute, you've attributed my quote to Big Tone - outrage!

[CityCiderEd]

14 minutes ago, reddogkev said:

Wait a minute, you've attributed my quote to Big Tone - outrage!

Doh!!!!!

[Mr Popodopolous]

23 minutes ago, CityCiderEd said:

This,and a superb scouting and recruitment policy and a decent academy set-up. Currently there is only one in place.

Correct- need to be 9/10 in this area. As well as tactically.

I would say LJ marks 5 or 6 out of 10 in these areas, and the recruitment similar.

@BRISTOL86 You're correct in the overarching point about clubs having gone up who are small or middling let's say. They all have their distinct model but one thing in common- run very well, making the most of their income, excellently coached, strong tactical identity. Do we have any of these?

[Major Isewater]

Terrible direction , the club has always been run by well meaning amateurs . 

Lack of cohesive strategy and planning .

Lack of belief that we can.

Lack of courage to do what it takes. 

Not pragmatic enough due to this myth that City must play beautiful football. 

Not ambitious enough.

 

[ooRya]

Since the formation of the Premier League, City have only had (I think?) 9 seasons in the second tier of English football, so that's just 9 seasons with the opportunity to get promoted to the Premier league, and in 1 of those seasons we came very close.

Maybe not such an abject failure when looked at this way perhaps?

When in the second tier, we are always having to compete with bigger, better, richer clubs than ourselves. At the moment, you have Villa, Derby, Middlesbrough, Leeds, Forest etc etc etc, so really not hard to see why it's so difficult.

In the past we have tried going toe to toe with these other clubs, and throwing as much money as we are able at it in the process. This was never going to work IMO, unless you have an absolute fluke of a season.

BUT

Like it or not, City are now adopting a different approach, and attempting to create a model that will allow steady progress, to reach a point where we have been able to create a team to achieve that final goal.

Will it work,? Who knows, but for those outside of the club looking in, it very much seems the opinion is "when" City get to the Prem, not "if".

Progress? I think so.

[reddogkev]

17 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Correct- need to be 9/10 in this area. As well as tactically.

I would say LJ marks 5 or 6 out of 10 in these areas, and the recruitment similar.

@BRISTOL86 You're correct in the overarching point about clubs having gone up who are small or middling let's say. They all have their distinct model but one thing in common- run very well, making the most of their income, excellently coached, strong tactical identity. Do we have any of these?

Your points at the end are interesting -

1) Making the most of their income - I'm not sure about this, I think I'll leave you to comment as you're skill with understanding the accounts / finances is impressive.

2) Excellently coached, I think this has only truly applied the season we one League One with Gary Johnson and then also with Steve Cotteril - this must be what has held us back - the inability of our managers / coaches at Championship level. Even during the Play off season with GJ I wouldn't say we were coached to a high standard, I can recall we were battered in some games yet managed to hold on to a 1 goal win, often against the odds, often with large degrees of fortune.

3) Strong tactical identity - for me this fits into the category of excellent coaching, as an excellent coaching model would encompass this.

[ExiledAjax]

If you are looking for a single reason then I would say ruthlessness and an arrogant streak. 

We, as a club, and perhaps as a city, seem to lack the ability to go for it.  this seems to manifest itself both on the pitch and off, in the stands and in the boardroom.  You just don't get the impression that we will ever just go for it. Even when we were dicking League 1 there was still an element of fear that we surely weren't supposed to do that, that MK were going to overtake us.  Even when we smashed Bradford and Walsall at the end of the season there was surprise rather than a feeling of "yeh, do you know what, we are the best team in this division". Now, as soon as we dip into the bottom half everyone almost begins revelling in the fact that we "should" be in a relegation fight.

Ultimately in this league it seems that you have to, at some point, strap in and go balls out for promotion. Leicester, Bournemouth, Wolves last season, they just did it. Throw caution to the wind, tell FFP to do one and swagger around the transfer window like you own it.

[BS4 on Tour...]

1 hour ago, reddogkev said:

It seems highly unlikely that promotion will happen anytime soon, as the chances of LJ forging a promotion team at any point in his career looks extremely doubtful.....

Eh?! Your groundbreaking thread during last season pronounced “automatic promotion is guaranteed” - and now you’ve given up?! Your incredibly infectious optimism didn’t last long.....

[Lew-T]

It’s a mixture of things I think, much more complicated than it would seem perhaps.

1) Poor selection of managers, or not the right fit for the club. O’Driscoll and Coppell although may be great coaches, were not right for Bristol City FC.

2) This may cause a stir but I think the attitude of Bristolians and City fans is another cause of our problems. We enjoy being the underdog, and I think we’re a City of moaners to be honest.

3) Poor recruitment is another, especially last January in particular. But over the past few years we have signed some proper dross! The only window which was a success was the summer of 2014 with the likes of Smith, Freeman, Ayling and Wilbraham coming in.

4) Like it or not but our very own Steve Lansdown has to take some of the blame in this. Regarding point 1) in particular.

5) Lack of football knowledge at the board level. At times this club is run as a business plan and not a football club, particularly due to nobody in the board having any football knowledge. 

I’ve probably missed a few points but I’d say those five points are the core of our problems.

[Mr Popodopolous]

29 minutes ago, reddogkev said:

Your points at the end are interesting -

1) Making the most of their income - I'm not sure about this, I think I'll leave you to comment as you're skill with understanding the accounts / finances is impressive.

2) Excellently coached, I think this has only truly applied the season we one League One with Gary Johnson and then also with Steve Cotteril - this must be what has held us back - the inability of our managers / coaches at Championship level. Even during the Play off season with GJ I wouldn't say we were coached to a high standard, I can recall we were battered in some games yet managed to hold on to a 1 goal win, often against the odds, often with large degrees of fortune.

3) Strong tactical identity - for me this fits into the category of excellent coaching, as an excellent coaching model would encompass this.

1) By that I mean making every or at least 9 out of 10 signings count- that crosses over with recruitment too I guess.

2) I thought first half of the season under GJ we were well coached, the 4-4-1-1 with Noble behind Trundle/Byfield gave us an edge over sides who played 4-4-2 which was most of the League at that time. Was quite good to watch too- agree we rode our luck too. Will give LJ credit too for the first half of last season, particularly with the Paterson behind Reid and various other configurations- seemed to have been an exception though.

3) Agreed.

@ExiledAjax Let's break that point about FFP down.

Leicester and Bournemouth did it at a time before accounts had to be submitted, or projected accounts by the club- it's called FFI (Future Financial Information) and fines or embargoes were the worst the EFL could do. Not anymore.

Which brings me onto my 2nd point, Wolves? FFP I'm not convinced they breached over 3 years- because they made a £5.8m profit in 2015/16 which meant they could lose £44.8m over the following 2 seasons. Not particularly comparable for us. That's before excluding costs such as academy, infrastructure, community and some other things. You add that to the £39m (or Wolves' case £44.8m as the aforementioned profit) and they likely passed it- albeit close to or up to the limit. Oh and they had a superagent.

[Redmycolour]

1 hour ago, reddogkev said:

Cardiff, Bournemouth, Huddersfield, Brighton, Swansea, Stoke etc, etc.  You get the drift, just a few of the clubs that in my time have overtaken us and reached the top.

Granted, they are not all still there, but that's not the point.  We often talk about City never being in the Premier League, but there must be a tangible reason  why this has never happened.  We've not even had a rare one-off season like Barnsley or Bradford, even bloody Swindon Town - where you get smashed all season, but at least you've been there for the ride.

So what has truly stopped us?   When you consider the size of Bristol, It is a baffling question, I can't for one serious minute think it is down to SL, it must go deeper.  It seems highly unlikely that promotion will happen anytime soon, as the chances of LJ forging a promotion team at any point in his career looks extremely doubtful.  You can tell the type of manager who knows how to create a championship winning team, and as much as I support LJ, he isn't it.  At some stage in our future, we need to find our next Cotts - the guy who can create the type of team spirit and quality that ran amok in League One.

Will the Premier League ever happen for us?  Are we being stopped by football forces we cannot comprehend?  Interested to read all the responses and hopefully find the answer once and for all!

We will never reach the PL, club has no ambitions, happy to stay in championship, with a crap, sxxt coach, 

[Major Isewater]

19 minutes ago, Lew-T said:

It’s a mixture of things I think, much more complicated than it would seem perhaps.

1) Poor selection of managers, or not the right fit for the club. O’Driscoll and Coppell although may be great coaches, were not right for Bristol City FC.

2) This may cause a stir but I think the attitude of Bristolians and City fans is another cause of our problems. We enjoy being the underdog, and I think we’re a City of moaners to be honest.

3) Poor recruitment is another, especially last January in particular. But over the past few years we have signed some proper dross! The only window which was a success was the summer of 2014 with the likes of Smith, Freeman, Ayling and Wilbraham coming in.

4) Like it or not but our very own Steve Lansdown has to take some of the blame in this. Regarding point 1) in particular.

5) Lack of football knowledge at the board level. At times this club is run as a business plan and not a football club, particularly due to nobody in the board having any football knowledge. 

I’ve probably missed a few points but I’d say those five points are the core of our problems.

We don't enjoy being the underdog we , quite simply , are amongst the underdogs in the First or Second division. 

 When in the lower Leagues we are big fish and are condescending when we are turned over by ' smaller ' clubs . 

 

[Robbored]

I’d say other clubs have stopped City reaching the PL

[A Horse With No Name]

I honestly believe that Mr Lansdown is afraid of getting to the PL simply because of the huge investment that would be needed, not just in transfer fees but in the actual wages . I think the 1982 experience has made him too reserved to ever risk that happening again so is perfectly happy to be where we are now.

[Robbored]

5 minutes ago, The Horse With No Name said:

I honestly believe that Mr Lansdown is afraid of getting to the PL simply because of the huge investment that would be needed, not just in transfer fees but in the actual wages . I think the 1982 experience has made him too reserved to ever risk that happening again so is perfectly happy to be where we are now.

Nonsense - of course SL wants to get to the PL. Like all of us he knows that the money up there is huge and he is a businessman after all.

He wants to get there by doing it his own way and that’s what is currently taking time to achieve. 

[Major Isewater]

24 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I’d say other clubs have stopped City reaching the PL

This ranks as one of your most ridiculous comments ever and that's going some .

Not one single person thinks that all the other clubs are going to form a guard of honour to welcome City into the elite .

Your post is a knob .

[Undy English]

2 hours ago, reddogkev said:

Cardiff, Bournemouth, Huddersfield, Brighton, Swansea, Stoke etc, etc.  You get the drift, just a few of the clubs that in my time have overtaken us and reached the top.

Granted, they are not all still there, but that's not the point.  We often talk about City never being in the Premier League, but there must be a tangible reason  why this has never happened.  We've not even had a rare one-off season like Barnsley or Bradford, even bloody Swindon Town - where you get smashed all season, but at least you've been there for the ride.

So what has truly stopped us?   When you consider the size of Bristol, It is a baffling question, I can't for one serious minute think it is down to SL, it must go deeper.  It seems highly unlikely that promotion will happen anytime soon, as the chances of LJ forging a promotion team at any point in his career looks extremely doubtful.  You can tell the type of manager who knows how to create a championship winning team, and as much as I support LJ, he isn't it.  At some stage in our future, we need to find our next Cotts - the guy who can create the type of team spirit and quality that ran amok in League One.

Will the Premier League ever happen for us?  Are we being stopped by football forces we cannot comprehend?  Interested to read all the responses and hopefully find the answer once and for all!

Simple - 2 things: a manager with pedigree that demands respect.....and.....spending money on decent transfers.

[ZiderEyed]

2 words. Bristolian psyche.

 

[Robbored]

34 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

This ranks as one of your most ridiculous comments ever and that's going some .

Not one single person thinks that all the other clubs are going to form a guard of honour to welcome City into the elite .

Your post is a knob .

The subtlety is lost on you Major.......

Try thinking about it before you fire off an amateur insult....

[Redmycolour]

1 hour ago, The Horse With No Name said:

I honestly believe that Mr Lansdown is afraid of getting to the PL simply because of the huge investment that would be needed, not just in transfer fees but in the actual wages . I think the 1982 experience has made him too reserved to ever risk that happening again so is perfectly happy to be where we are now.

How right you are, and LJ would be out of his depth, 

[cidercity1987]

I personally think the fans are partly to blame, we are the only constant in decades of underachievement.

Not enough attendances over the years for a City of our size, a fanbase unknowledgeable about what it takes to get to the top, putting pressure on the club to play a certain way or make certain decisions (for example playing with wingers when the likes of Spudski have shown that this is statistically an inefficient way).