What has stopped City reaching the Prem League?

[wendyredredrobin]

3 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

I personally think the fans are partly to blame, we are the only constant in decades of underachievement.

Not enough attendances over the years for a City of our size, a fanbase unknowledgeable about what it takes to get to the top, putting pressure on the club to play a certain way or make certain decisions (for example playing with wingers when the likes of Spudski have shown that this is statistically an inefficient way).

Attendances next season will be a lot worse if we keep serving up the rubbish we have of late. 

[Guest]

Dean Windass. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

47 minutes ago, Undy English said:

Simple - 2 things: a manager with pedigree that demands respect.....and.....spending money on decent transfers.

3rdly you can add a manager who in the main doesn't know how to get the best out of what he has available.

[beaverface]

One of the consistent themes that we keep hearing, is that the club cannot compete with other clubs that have parachute payments, therefore our approach should be to try and do whatever is possible to get promotion i.e. employ ugly football using Warnocks, Dyche or Sam Allardyces of this World.

Accept that we're going to get relegated the following season, and then using the parachute payments build for the future.

You never know, with someone like Sam Allardyce in charge we may even stay up!

The overarching question has to be, how badly do we want Premier League football, and should it be at the expense of dour football with a high chance of us alienating and losing a lot of our fans?

The alternative to this, is that we look to employ a manager (when they become available) who has the proven experience of getting clubs promoted from the Championship ie. Chris Hughton, Steve Bruce, Mick McCarthy, Kevin Keegan. We almost did it right with Coppell

[CityCiderEd]

2 hours ago, Robbored said:

He wants to get there by doing it his own way and that’s what is currently taking time to achieve

Which will sadly mean that a big majority will never live to see it happen.......

[Undy English]

2 hours ago, beaverface said:

One of the consistent themes that we keep hearing, is that the club cannot compete with other clubs that have parachute payments, therefore our approach should be to try and do whatever is possible to get promotion i.e. employ ugly football using Warnocks, Dyche or Sam Allardyces of this World.

Accept that we're going to get relegated the following season, and then using the parachute payments build for the future.

You never know, with someone like Sam Allardyce in charge we may even stay up!

The overarching question has to be, how badly do we want Premier League football, and should it be at the expense of dour football with a high chance of us alienating and losing a lot of our fans?

The alternative to this, is that we look to employ a manager (when they become available) who has the proven experience of getting clubs promoted from the Championship ie. Chris Hughton, Steve Bruce, Mick McCarthy, Kevin Keegan. We almost did it right with Coppell

Strangely, I agree entirely and think you might be right! Manager rather than big signings might be the way forward.

The only question is: how much is Lansdown willing to part with to obtain the services of a big name manager such as Allardyce? If it's anything like our transfer budget, very little.

[Robbored]

3 minutes ago, Undy English said:

Strangely, I agree entirely and think you might be right! Manager rather than big signings might be the way forward.

The only question is: how much is Lansdown willing to part with to obtain the services of a big name manager such as Allardyce? If it's anything like our transfer budget, very little.

Any big name manager like Alladyce or Moyes would want around £50m to bring in their own players.....SL won’t be going down that road and blowing his strategy out of the water.

[Sturny]

4 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Any big name manager like Alladyce or Moyes would want around £50m to bring in their own players.....SL won’t be going down that road and blowing his strategy out of the water.

I wonder if we fail to reach the prem within 5-7 years he'll consider changing his strategy

[marmite]

12 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Any big name manager like Alladyce or Moyes would want around £50m to bring in their own players.....SL won’t be going down that road and blowing his strategy out of the water.

And there is the answer to the OPs question.

[bcfcredandwhite]

Ok I know that this is going to attract some criticism and negative responses, but here goes:

There is a culture of negativity in our club. The Sags call Ashton Gate the ‘Library’ and much as I hate to admit it, it’s often an apt description. Added to this all the negativity in social media  - albeit a new thing - in the past it was by radio phone-ins or newspaper comments - it can be a depressing place to be. There is a heavy ‘gloom’ around the place - and it’s not just the current setup with LJ either. The last time I really felt positivity at AG was when we romped the league under John Ward. Back then it wasn’t IF we would win, but how many we would score. Cotts’s promotion season was close, but the chasing pack were closer so there were always worries. The thing to remember that both those examples were in DIV 3. I can’t honestly EVER remember a good, confident season in the second tier. 

A lot of people are pointing their fingers at the current setup; Steve Lansdown and Lee Johnson, but our perceived underachievement goes way back before they had anything to do with us. If Lee Johnson and the current setup fail to deliver Premiership football to us then they have done no worse than absolutely EVERYONE since Alan Dicks. 

This ‘disease’ is very strong; even when we play well, we don’t believe it in ourselves. This is reflected in the way the world outside BS3 view us - and also the players that we might be looking to buy - Zac Clough anyone???

When Man City and Sheffield United were 5h1t, you had 20-30k fans roaring them on every week in League 1, injecting belief and confidence that they would one day make it. 

We fans on the other hand, keep quiet in the most part and hurl abuse and insults at our manager and players whenever something negative happens on the pitch. I have an image of Lee Johnson and the players trying to climb up ropes in the gym, with a monkey symbolising us fans, sat on their shoulders stabbing them with tiny knives  

We need a period of stability in the second tier now before we can realistically think of the Prem. we need to believe in ourselves and then our belief will rub off on the wider footballing community and they will start to take notice. 

Its not going to be easy - moaning is part of the ‘Bristol way’ - it’s what we do, but it’s hard to do a good job when people are sniping at you every move you make. 

We had a Premiership manager once - one who has proved himself at Premiership level - how did we react to him - let’s think on it ...... Tony Pulis. He was hated and hounded out  

Players, managers and chairmen come and go. The only constant in this tale of underachievement is us fans!!

cue the abuse ........!

[Robbored]

16 minutes ago, marmite said:

And there is the answer to the OPs question.

The answer is the one I posted earlier......other clubs finish ahead of us......I would have thought that was pretty obvious 

[Natchfever]

5 hours ago, cidercity1987 said:

I personally think the fans are partly to blame, we are the only constant in decades of underachievement.

Not enough attendances over the years for a City of our size, a fanbase unknowledgeable about what it takes to get to the top, putting pressure on the club to play a certain way or make certain decisions (for example playing with wingers when the likes of Spudski have shown that this is statistically an inefficient way).

I cannot of course prove it, but I very much doubt any of the the super clubs in England would have had attendances much larger than ours had they been so monumentally shite through the vast majority of their histories.

[Natchfever]

49 minutes ago, bcfcredandwhite said:

Ok I know that this is going to attract some criticism and negative responses, but here goes:

There is a culture of negativity in our club. The Sags call Ashton Gate the ‘Library’ and much as I hate to admit it, it’s often an apt description. Added to this all the negativity in social media  - albeit a new thing - in the past it was by radio phone-ins or newspaper comments - it can be a depressing place to be. There is a heavy ‘gloom’ around the place - and it’s not just the current setup with LJ either. The last time I really felt positivity at AG was when we romped the league under John Ward. Back then it wasn’t IF we would win, but how many we would score. Cotts’s promotion season was close, but the chasing pack were closer so there were always worries. The thing to remember that both those examples were in DIV 3. I can’t honestly EVER remember a good, confident season in the second tier. 

A lot of people are pointing their fingers at the current setup; Steve Lansdown and Lee Johnson, but our perceived underachievement goes way back before they had anything to do with us. If Lee Johnson and the current setup fail to deliver Premiership football to us then they have done no worse than absolutely EVERYONE since Alan Dicks. 

This ‘disease’ is very strong; even when we play well, we don’t believe it in ourselves. This is reflected in the way the world outside BS3 view us - and also the players that we might be looking to buy - Zac Clough anyone???

When Man City and Sheffield United were 5h1t, you had 20-30k fans roaring them on every week in League 1, injecting belief and confidence that they would one day make it. 

We fans on the other hand, keep quiet in the most part and hurl abuse and insults at our manager and players whenever something negative happens on the pitch. I have an image of Lee Johnson and the players trying to climb up ropes in the gym, with a monkey symbolising us fans, sat on their shoulders stabbing them with tiny knives  

We need a period of stability in the second tier now before we can realistically think of the Prem. we need to believe in ourselves and then our belief will rub off on the wider footballing community and they will start to take notice. 

Its not going to be easy - moaning is part of the ‘Bristol way’ - it’s what we do, but it’s hard to do a good job when people are sniping at you every move you make. 

We had a Premiership manager once - one who has proved himself at Premiership level - how did we react to him - let’s think on it ...... Tony Pulis. He was hated and hounded out  

Players, managers and chairmen come and go. The only constant in this tale of underachievement is us fans!!

cue the abuse ........!

Because relatively speaking (certainly in the case of City) they were just passing through.

If you can identify clubs with a comparable histories to ours that have consistently had larger attendances then fair play to you.

[Sturny]

45 minutes ago, Robbored said:

The answer is the one I posted earlier......other clubs finish ahead of us......I would have thought that was pretty obvious 

Imagine if for just one season....they didn’t..... that would change everything 

[Ivorguy]

Quality on the pitch and off 

[BigAl&Toby]

6 hours ago, Robbored said:

Nonsense - of course SL wants to get to the PL. Like all of us he knows that the money up there is huge and he is a businessman after all.

He wants to get there by doing it his own way and that’s what is currently taking time to achieve. 

Bollocks.

Its not his priority. Never has been. It’s just something that he’d accept if it comes along.

Ambition and woeful decisions - by so many on so many levels. That’s what.

[Dullmoan Tone]

7 hours ago, Lew-T said:

It’s a mixture of things I think, much more complicated than it would seem perhaps.

1) Poor selection of managers, or not the right fit for the club. O’Driscoll and Coppell although may be great coaches, were not right for Bristol City FC.

2) This may cause a stir but I think the attitude of Bristolians and City fans is another cause of our problems. We enjoy being the underdog, and I think we’re a City of moaners to be honest.

3) Poor recruitment is another, especially last January in particular. But over the past few years we have signed some proper dross! The only window which was a success was the summer of 2014 with the likes of Smith, Freeman, Ayling and Wilbraham coming in.

4) Like it or not but our very own Steve Lansdown has to take some of the blame in this. Regarding point 1) in particular.

5) Lack of football knowledge at the board level. At times this club is run as a business plan and not a football club, particularly due to nobody in the board having any football knowledge. 

I’ve probably missed a few points but I’d say those five points are the core of our problems.

I like this list I would add two more:

Sentimentality - for example why have we extended Korey, on presumably good wages instead of upgrading, why did we extend Flint's deal just to let him go etc

Jobs for the boys (slightly different to item 3) - is Jamie Mac really the best coach, LJ the best Manager, Marley Watkins the best winger available, The Young Lansdown the best executive just because of their history/connection with the club or Lee?

 

 

[Bar BS3]

Would you want premier league football, if it meant you had to face a future similar to that of Bradford, Swindon, Charlton, Sunderland, Oldham, Notts County, Barnsley, Wimbledon, Bolton, Coventry, and such like...? 

[Robbored]

8 minutes ago, BigAlToby&Liam said:

Bollocks.

Its not his priority. Never has been. It’s just something that he’d accept if it comes along.

Ambition and woeful decisions - by so many on so many levels. That’s what.

Shame you’re not old enough to join Senior Reds - SL is our speaker at the Xmas lunch next week.

You could have slagged him off to his face.

[bristolcitysweden]

No ambition. No tradition.

[Davefevs]

7 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

1) By that I mean making every or at least 9 out of 10 signings count- that crosses over with recruitment too I guess.

2) I thought first half of the season under GJ we were well coached, the 4-4-1-1 with Noble behind Trundle/Byfield gave us an edge over sides who played 4-4-2 which was most of the League at that time. Was quite good to watch too- agree we rode our luck too. Will give LJ credit too for the first half of last season, particularly with the Paterson behind Reid and various other configurations- seemed to have been an exception though.

3) Agreed.

@ExiledAjax Let's break that point about FFP down.

Leicester and Bournemouth did it at a time before accounts had to be submitted, or projected accounts by the club- it's called FFI (Future Financial Information) and fines or embargoes were the worst the EFL could do. Not anymore.

Which brings me onto my 2nd point, Wolves? FFP I'm not convinced they breached over 3 years- because they made a £5.8m profit in 2015/16 which meant they could lose £44.8m over the following 2 seasons. Not particularly comparable for us. That's before excluding costs such as academy, infrastructure, community and some other things. You add that to the £39m (or Wolves' case £44.8m as the aforementioned profit) and they likely passed it- albeit close to or up to the limit. Oh and they had a superagent.

I think Wolves used a few loans, that if they failed to cut the mustard / didn’t go up, wouldn’t burden them on long contracts.  They obviously went big on the likes of Neves, but that was about it!  A clever tactic imho.  Use loans to get to the Prem (helps if you’ve got links to a super-agent) then use the Prem money to invest.

[bristolcitysweden]

No ambition. No tradition.

[Ivorguy]

8 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

Would you want premier league football, if it meant you had to face a future similar to that of Bradford, Swindon, Charlton, Sunderland, Oldham, Notts County, Barnsley, Wimbledon, Bolton, Coventry, and such like...? 

We face that future anyway 

[cidered abroad]

It's not an easy question to answer and many will have the differing views. 

IMO there are many reasons but I feel it is to do with ambition, finance, geographical location and so on.

After a good start in 1900 when we got to the First Division, then an FA cup final, we ended up a couple of decades later in the Third South. Attendances fluctuated as did every club but we then remained there for twenty five years,enjoying local games. Dolman had ambition but the whole club and probably supporter base became so used to being "The Big Fish in the Little Pond" that it clouded any thought of ambition to higher levels. Dolman did try with Peter Doherty as manager in 1958 but that went pear shaped due to the split dressing room over the payment of summer wages all year round to those who were in the 1955 Third South Championship team.

So the promotion of 1955 is then negated by relegation five years later. Took us five years to go up, then AD managed to achieve the impossible. Only for him and the Board to mess up big time with the long contracts that lead to 1982. If we had invested properly in the team then, we may have become a more permanent fixture in the top tier. 

So back to whence we came again. Directors admitting publicly to me that they loved being the "Big Fish" and until SL arrived that's how it probably continued. Danny Wilson wasted four years and some hard cash when we should have been nailed on for promotion.

Now, I get the feeling that while SL has appeared to be very good for City, he seems to speak with forked tongue about our progress up to the Prem. Does he really want it or does he also not want to be a "Little Fish in the Big Pond"?

As a result of our league status over the last 120 years, with only two very brief visits to the top table, I consider that we are a club that would like to be up there.

But the fans of Leeds, Sheff Wed, Sheff U, Cardiff, Birmingham, Wolves, Sunderland, Blackburn, PNE, Villa WBA, Brighton, Southampton, Watford, Palace and another couple of dozen, BELIEVE THAT THEY BELONG IN THE TOP LEAGUE AS OF RIGHT. Thus when they sink to the second, third and even fourth tier, they put so much pressure on their club that the club responds. 

City fans are delighted to be a very ordinary club in the middle of the second tier with a major cup run every twenty years and resigned to the fact that we'll get relegated again fairly soon. The ten year cycle of up and down is so embedded in the "Identity" of our club that even a multi billionaire appears to be unable to break the cycle.

If I sound bitter, I am because I'm so proud to be a Bristolian and a supporter of Bristol City and Bristol RFC, (you could add Glos CCC), and I find it so disappointing that all three clubs are now just around to make up the numbers. I want a bus top ride for any of them with a major cup rather than a Freight Rover or an Anglo Welsh.

[bristolcitysweden]

Rather the string that burst etc. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

10 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think Wolves used a few loans, that if they failed to cut the mustard / didn’t go up, wouldn’t burden them on long contracts.  They obviously went big on the likes of Neves, but that was about it!  A clever tactic imho.  Use loans to get to the Prem (helps if you’ve got links to a super-agent) then use the Prem money to invest.

Yep, that sounds right Dave. Neves they could have sold at a profit anyway- clever as you say.

(Debates about the ethics and that, a different matter).

[bristolcitysweden]

If we go bust we go bust although there is most certainly another idiot around the corner for another complete stand still. You can watch shit temas 

Should we go bust what's the big deal??

 

[bristolcitysweden]

You can not watching boring Championship football? Well that's something. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just now, bristolcitysweden said:

You can not watching boring Championship football? Well that's something. 

The 5th or 6th best League in Europe...?

[bristolcitysweden]

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

The 5th or 6th best League in Europe...?

It's not. It's piss poor.