That’s Why We’re Mid-Table

[Davefevs]

11 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

 

No, but I will do....I’ve got the time!!

[1960maaan]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

No, but I will do....I’ve got the time!!

Cheers, look forward to those pieces , and @Olé's reports .

Took the Brother in Law down today, Spurs fan down for Christmas , last time I took him was Preston another stinker so I'm blaming him and hoping for improvement Saturday when he's gone back to Essex.

[downendcity]

3 minutes ago, Johnny Musicworks said:

On today’s evidence there is very little between us and Brentford. There again there is very little between us and most of the teams in this league. It’s all down to fine margins and for most teams lack of consistency.

Brentford have struggled since losing their manager but drew at WBA earlier in the month so we shouldn’t underestimate them. They looked for me the more likely to win the game today. What they had different to us was a midfielder Sawyers who controlled the game whereas we had too many off their game or ineffective.

Not for the first time this season we allowed a central midfielder the freedom of the park with no real pressing. Our midfield were hassled into countless errors and with the exception of Callum and Josh were largely ineffective.

On the plus side we didn’t lose and for me that is the fine margin of improvement on earlier in the season. We have become harder to beat.

We are still crying out for a dominant midfielder and goal scorer but we all know that. Until that is addressed mid-table will no doubt be where we deserve to be.

As I've just mentioned in another post, it's not underestimating the opposition that is our problem I think that LJ "overestimates" our opposition too much.

By which I mean that he seems to focus too much on the opposition strengths at the expense of our own and maximising them. Can you imagine Klopp preparing for a game against Cardiff and thinking that Bobby Reid can be a bit dangerous if he gets a sniff of a chance and deciding to leave out Salah and Mane in order to put a couple of extra defensive midfielders in, to counter Reid'd threat? That might be an extreme example, but it seems the way that LJ's mind thinks.

Modern coaching involves a lot of analytical techniques, all designed to add those small margins, but I wonder whether LJ sometimes is a little obsessed with it, to the degree we suffer paralysis by analysis!

 

[REDOXO]

No defeat in six...I would have bitten anyone’s arm off for that five weeks ago!

We have gone back to basics to stop conceding soft goals, however we did concede one today! 

LJ is trying to limp toward the window and keep us in touch, before he unleashes his master stroke window assault that will propel us toward the play offs!....That’s my story and I’m sticking with it.

 

[Cider red]

Absolutely mid table! Some good, some bad, two points behind Stoke, in the top half, a couple of wins away from Birmingham, Villa etc. Not so bad, 5/6 games ago I thought we'd be cut adrift from the top half. We're now in it. The dark days of Mcinness and Odriscoll seem a long time ago.

[BobBobSuperBob]

They pressed and ............we didnt

 They looked far more comfortable in possession than we did

They looked far more creative in possession than we did 

sort of summarises it IMHO

[1960maaan]

32 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I didn’t go today, parents over, and getting hammered by Joe on Xbox NBA 2K19 (I'm shit on these games), but I did listen to the radio commentary.

In fairness in places it sounded just like I expected it, Brentford passing it, creating, not very clinical.  What I expected from City in between times was a bit more radio-action, the odd bit of stained pressure...it never seemed to happen....even though 1-0 up at h-t.

Bit of a shame, a wasted opportunity from 1-0 up.  BBC stats say we had 51% possession...I'm guessing a lot of that was across the back 4.

The radio seemed to mention Brownhill on the ball a lot more than I've seen of late (dies lots of running off the ball normally), but looking on whoscored.com, his heatmap is in the left deep, slightly left of centre....in the same spots as Pack.

Was that what happened?

Sawyers, in contrast, more touches (77 v Pack 74 v Brownhill 62), and heat maps further forward too.

How did O’Dowda play?  Chris Honor suggested he was our most creative player, but the radio commentary didn’t seem to bear that out?  Did their WB keep COD deep, in more in effective positions, but also in positions where he couldn’t roam into space?

Where were the spaces / advantages in our 4141 versus there 343 / 523?

Didnt sound like a great performance, but whilst i’m in mellow mood, I'll take the point (said to my dad I thought they might sneak a winner) and hope we get 3 v Rotherham.

1-0 was a travesty at half time Dave, chatting to a mate I guessed they had 65-70% possession. From memory we created nothing and went in winning, but they hadn't really tested Maenapaa too much, although they missed real opportunities to do so.
I thought Brownhill was quite ineffective, and Pack did nearly all his work deep, Brentford Pressed well and kept their shape brilliantly. Always had an out when we pressed, liked the look of Sawyer , who also seemed to play deeper, I'd love to see him in our MF .
I like ODowda , crossing was a threat in open play, if not from corners. Had a few handy runs , but never seemed to get the ball early when he had a chance to have a 1 on 1 with their RB. For my money should get more of the ball and given licence to play as a winger, I thought there was space to exploit behind their FB's that we never used. 
Fam looked isolated when Pato dropped deeper or went wide, trouble is (although I thought Pato had a decent game) when he drifts no one takes up the space or tries to get beyond Fam. 
I was impressed with Brentford, worked hard for each other, kept the ball better than us, beat our press better than we beat theirs, I felt we were 2nd best for 80% of the game. Maenpaa made 2 good saves 2nd half and they should have had a pen when Kelly dragged Neale Maupay (I think) down by his throat (that was first half). 

Practically thinking , we were lucky to get a point and hardly deserved it , so I guess we have to be happy. I more worried about another poor performance, looks like Norwich and (Frank Lampard's ) Derby were exceptions rather than the rule. 

[1960maaan]

8 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

They pressed and ............we didnt

 They looked far more comfortable in possession than we did

They looked far more creative in possession than we did 

sort of summarises it IMHO

That could have saved me some typing if I'd seen this before I posted 

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 minute ago, 1960maaan said:

Fam looked isolated when Pato dropped deeper or went wide, trouble is (although I thought Pato had a decent game) when he drifts no one takes up the space or tries to get beyond Fam. I

This

This

This

Because Fam has no pace as such he’s not really any threat behind

Pato never runs past him

Pack doesn’t ever venture that far forward

And our two widemen are asked to join in and build rather than look for the bal over the top

As a result we have virtually zero threat to the opposition that we can get in behind

As a result , As Brentford did , sides can press high , with a high defensive line , and we are never going to exploit the space the6 leave, and they know it 

If a player was to run beyond Famara , and I can’t remember the last time it happened tbh , my money would be a punt in Brownhill

We aren’t a threat in behind, Famaras not really a target man , and our possession , play through them approach is , or was today and on many previous occasions laboured and slow and we lack the creativity if we reach the final third without giving up possession

No wonder we aren’t scoring many goals , we are so predictable tbh

Thought Webster and Kalas had their hands full , and bailed us out today , particularly Kalas reading of danger and calm defending

 

 

 

7 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

That could have saved me some typing if I'd seen this before I posted 

Yours was a deeper and better explanation 

[Shtanley]

Would love to see Eliasson or Eisa start on Saturday. We need more pace and bodies in and around Diedhiou. 

Paterson playing better than recent but still a liability in own half. Some terrible attempts at a tackle today and a genuinely embarrassing bit of defending for the goal.

[BS4 on Tour...]

2 hours ago, Dullmoan Tone said:

The trouble is, are we good enough to play a more adventurous attacking game and not get torn apart?

I know it’s not pretty (or entertaining) but we aren’t getting as many hammerings as last season.

What ‘hammerings’ are you referring to from last season? At this point last season we’d only had one tonking - the 0-3 at home to Leeds, then there was the 5-0 at Villa in January but apart from that - although the second half of the season was extremely disappointing and poor - I can’t recall what I’d called a hammering...in fact the Leeds and Villa games were the only ones we lost by more than one goal during the entire season.

Very, very disappointing and poor form last season, yes, but hammerings?

[cidered abroad]

My wife who knows nothing about football came with me today.

Her verdict is that the game was dull and lacked excitement.

My opinion after almost seventy years of supporting City is that I cannot remember such mind numbing fare. There have been worse times, mostly in relegation season's but the team usually scrapped and tried to get goals even if they failed miserably. To lose when you fight is not a disgrace. To draw when most of the game, we are playing the ball sideways and backwards is criminal.

My wife did say when we got home that she now understands why I come home from City games so unhappy. It's supposed to be entertaining! Johnsons football certainly is not. Do I go again on Saturday? Probably but I really do wonder if I've lost my marbles.

[downendcity]

23 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

No defeat in six...I would have bitten anyone’s arm off for that five weeks ago!

We have gone back to basics to stop conceding soft goals, however we did concede one today! 

LJ is trying to limp toward the window and keep us in touch, before he unleashes his master stroke window assault that will propel us toward the play offs!....That’s my story and I’m sticking with it.

Too many Christmas sherries then RO?

The recent run has been a welcome turnaround after the 4 defeats. However, the real key is building on that so that we go into the new year with decent momentum and avoid the downturn suffered a year ago. I think we have the players to compete well, but a coach who seems to be struggling to get the best out of his squad. It's a pleasant change to see him leaving the team selection unchanged but I can't help but feel there is a far better team in this squad than we have seen recently, injuries notwithstanding.

Having said that, how will fans feel if we maintain a decent run, with a few wins, remaining pretty solid if not the most entertaining, and are in touch with play off places in 6-8 weeks time? Should that happen, will performance matter more than results?

 

[1960maaan]

@BobBobSuperBob looking back to our purple patch last year. Reid up front , but actually dropped off, then each and every one of our MF tried to get past him, his experience seemed to help him spot the little runs and spaces and feed the runners in. 
From that, to now is remarkable in the contrast. I wouldn't mind if we had a proper MF3 and let the wide men loose, but today was the loneliest of lone strikers infront of a defensive MF 5. I thought Webster was the biggest threat when he started carrying th ball forward.

[cidered abroad]

31 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

No defeat in six...I would have bitten anyone’s arm off for that five weeks ago!

We have gone back to basics to stop conceding soft goals, however we did concede one today! 

LJ is trying to limp toward the window and keep us in touch, before he unleashes his master stroke window assault that will propel us toward the play offs!....That’s my story and I’m sticking with it.

 

We have won only one home game since early September! 

Abysmal, appalling, boring, and a hundred other words and phrases.

Johnson is slowly killing our football club. Its supposed to be entertainment.

[Lrrr]

Just now, cidered abroad said:

We have won only one home game since early September! 

Abysmal, appalling, boring, and a hundred other words and phrases.

Johnson is slowly killing our football club. Its supposed to be entertainment.

You could also say its a results based industry, would fans really prefer losing but entertaining games?

[REDOXO]

2 minutes ago, downendcity said:

Too many Christmas sherries then RO?

The recent run has been a welcome turnaround after the 4 defeats. However, the real key is building on that so that we go into the new year with decent momentum and avoid the downturn suffered a year ago. I think we have the players to compete well, but a coach who seems to be struggling to get the best out of his squad. It's a pleasant change to see him leaving the team selection unchanged but I can't help but feel there is a far better team in this squad than we have seen recently, injuries notwithstanding.

Having said that, how will fans feel if we maintain a decent run, with a few wins, remaining pretty solid if not the most entertaining, and are in touch with play off places in 6-8 weeks time? Should that happen, will performance matter more than results?

 

Yes my comments are tongue in cheek as you know, however, I get the feeling there is something in the offing as he keeps mentioning trades. 

But to the thrust of your I think we can be decent and we can obviously compete but need to be consistent and put teams away. 

For my tuppence as much of a painful experience it is to watch us at home, if we are in touch at the end of Feb the means will justify the ends for me, at least!

[BobBobSuperBob]

6 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

@BobBobSuperBob looking back to our purple patch last year. Reid up front , but actually dropped off, then each and every one of our MF tried to get past him, his experience seemed to help him spot the little runs and spaces and feed the runners in. 
From that, to now is remarkable in the contrast. I wouldn't mind if we had a proper MF3 and let the wide men loose, but today was the loneliest of lone strikers infant of a defensive MF 5. I thought Webster was the biggest threat when he started carrying th ball forward.

When we were at our best with Bobby as the Pinnacle and Pato in behind Bobby was of course a threat in behind to the opposition and didn’t allow them to play so high, He also stretched and opened up the game for us with his runnning and his high pressing

He is also decent technically and would with dpreasonable service get hold of, keep and gather give the ball

Now Famara is our pinnacle - Famara , unfortunately is zero threat in behind , and not consistent in his hold up play, and even if he was,  we lack the runners for him to look for

Controversial but I still think Famara could be part of a shock Jan trade if the option appeals to us

He wasn’t at his best today but tbf ,the service to him , and support of him , was shocking

[Dullmoan Tone]

9 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

What ‘hammerings’ are you referring to from last season? At this point last season we’d only had one tonking - the 0-3 at home to Leeds, then there was the 5-0 at Villa in January but apart from that - although the second half of the season was extremely disappointing and poor - I can’t recall what I’d called a hammering...in fact the Leeds and Villa games were the only ones we lost by more than one goal during the entire season.

Very, very disappointing and poor form last season, yes, but hammerings?

Perhaps hammering was too strong, but we conceded 3 or more goals 6 times after January and twice shipped 5 - this was my point about being too open when we try to attack.

[BS4 on Tour...]

3 minutes ago, Dullmoan Tone said:

Perhaps hammering was too strong, but we conceded 3 or more goals 6 times after January and twice shipped 5 - this was my point about being too open when we try to attack.

After January last season we conceded 3 or more goals 3 times....

[The Coach]

18 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

My wife who knows nothing about football came with me today.

Her verdict is that the game was dull and lacked excitement.

My opinion after almost seventy years of supporting City is that I cannot remember such mind numbing fare. There have been worse times, mostly in relegation season's but the team usually scrapped and tried to get goals even if they failed miserably. To lose when you fight is not a disgrace. To draw when mist of the game, we are playing the ball sideways and backwards is criminal.

My wife did say when we got home that she now understands why I come home from City games so unhappy. It's supposed to be entertaining! Johnsons football certainly is not. Do I go again on Saturday? Probably but I really do wonder if I've lost my marbles.

Had a friend come today who’s a neutral and pretty much gave the same verdict above.

My friend also asked questions such as, why doesn’t anyone from midfield run forward? Why do you always try play it out wide? Why do none of your players press the opposition? They seem to sit back and invite pressure.

Comments also made such as. You seem to have a very average squad, no star quality. Your striker has no strength or pace. What does he offer?

 

All the above is coming from someone who has never watched City before but bang on the money. How can someone with no background or relation to City hit the nail on the head from one game? But Johnson after a couple of years cannot. 

[downendcity]

29 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

My wife who knows nothing about football came with me today.

Her verdict is that the game was dull and lacked excitement.

My opinion after almost seventy years of supporting City is that I cannot remember such mind numbing fare. There have been worse times, mostly in relegation season's but the team usually scrapped and tried to get goals even if they failed miserably. To lose when you fight is not a disgrace. To draw when most of the game, we are playing the ball sideways and backwards is criminal.

My wife did say when we got home that she now understands why I come home from City games so unhappy. It's supposed to be entertaining! Johnsons football certainly is not. Do I go again on Saturday? Probably but I really do wonder if I've lost my marbles.

At least if Mrs cider comes to games with you, she will feel the same as you when you get home. That way,  you can empathise with each other and avoid spoiling your week-ends.

[BS4 on Tour...]

53 minutes ago, Dullmoan Tone said:

Perhaps hammering was too strong, but we conceded 3 or more goals 6 times after January and twice shipped 5 - this was my point about being too open when we try to attack.

As I said above, we only conceded 3 or more 3 times after January last season, and we only lost one of those games....by one goal....3-3 with Sunderland, 5-5 vs Hull and 2-3 against the Blades....

[shelts]

1 hour ago, downendcity said:

In a way I can sort of understand that LJ has taken a more "pragmatic" approach this season, and why this is so. 

Over the last 2 season's he has received brickbats for the huge slums in form and results. Especially last season, the slump occurred when, by and large, we were playing well, but kept on losing by the odd goal. There does seem more concentration on the defensive side of our game this season, and to a degree this has been justified by the way we see out games late on without conceding - in precious season's it is likely we would have lost today to a late goal.

However, It does also seem that concentrating on the defensive side to our game has been at the expense of being more progressive going forward. As I think you mentioned, as have I and others, LJ's achilles heel still seems to be his obsession with focussing on oppositions strengths and going out to counter them, rather than looking to focus on our strengths and selecting a team to maximise and play to them. 

Brentford do seem to have to he hoodoo over us in recent seasons, and today was disappointing coming on the back of a good run of results and some decent performances. Fingers crossed the team goes out positively in the next game with a good result and performance.

Bearing in mind that at the beginning the month many fans saw today as the only game we would get anything from out of the last 4, these games have been a bonus, but it also means that today was huge disappointment given those previous games. It does seem that for whatever reason we seem able to raise our game against teams against whom we have the least expectation, but continue to struggle to overcome "lesser" teams.

Most successful teams aren't successful because they win key games against their main rivals ( although it certainly helps) but because they consistently put away teams at the bottom end of the table - something we continue to struggle with.

 

He had the best players sold so yes I get it.  As a footballing product it’s decidedly average this season and we seem to be going backwards. His ultra cautious approach is self preservation 

[CityCiderEd]

1 hour ago, hodge said:

You could also say its a results based industry, would fans really prefer losing but entertaining games?

Agree with you about preferring not to lose and I could put up with the odd streaky 1-0 win..........but our home form is atrocious. We are currently 21st in the table for home form P12 W3 D5 L4 F13 A13 Pts 14 as opposed to our very good away form which is what is keeping us mid table. We are currently 6th in the table P12 W5 D3 L4 F16 A15 Pts 18. People want to see us do well at home and although we have no given right to beat sides at AG it would be nice to replicate our away performances.

[Mr Popodopolous]

6 hours ago, MC RISK77 said:

Can’t really argue about our position this season given the outgoings and what appeared from day one as sub standard recruitment Webster and maennpa aside.

i am comfortable with it, 12th right now suggests we are a very competitive championship team who on our day can beat anyone. If we go back to when lee took over we were far from this. Yes he has had more money to spend than any other manager in our history but he has also balanced the books.

as a club in our history we are probably not far off the strongest we have ever been.

Kalas is a renowned strong performer at this level- surprised you think he's substandard recruitment. Perhaps he's not performing so well owing to LJ like a few of our players?

Overall,, I expected a draw today- and a draw was what we got. Had us pegged for 4 points from the 2 games, decent chance it will come to pass I feel. With the respective home and away records of the 2 sides this season, a draw is where the smart money would have been before 3pm today.

I weighed it up in terms of statistical probability. We drew 4 out of 11 at home, Brentford drew 5 of 11 away- 9/22=40.909%. Brentford won zero away, we won 3 of 11 at home- 13.636% home win. We lost 4 at home, Brentford zero away- 18.181% away win. Well those sums leave a bit to be desired but the draw was the most likely outcome IMO.

[RobintheRed Red]

6 hours ago, Ska Junkie said:

I think it's 4-1-4-1 in all honesty.

My Lansdown might just be in for a shock come renewal time in a couple of months. People might just keep their £££ in their accounts this year rather than pay to watch that dirge we were served up today. 

Too right mate enoughs enough il get as far as the packett and get pissed

[Ska Junkie]

5 hours ago, old_eastender said:

Absolutely, I know of several lifelong City ST holders who are just not bothering to go now as they are so fed up of the dross football being served up under LJ. Ironically at least one of those was enticed back today on the back of 2 good performances and then LJ serves up another dross performance.

I'm not sure I'll renew TBH OE.

I'm finding it really boring at the mo, almost a chore. Coming home today, I'm not sure I can be arsed on Saturday and after 44 years that's a concern.

I've got Ifollow on my streaming service so I might stay at home and watch it there.

Life without football? Maybe I'm reaching the stage where I should try it? I really don't enjoy going to the Gate at the mo and it's getting to me, that's genuine.

Maybe I'm just getting old. 

[Olé]

Good thread and @Silvio Dante agree with most of what you started it with. Our setup at home is as ineffective as it is effective away from home - it doesn't come close to matching our away endeavour or threat.

I feel sorry for people who only see City at AG, where away we're an energetic team that finds space to get in behind them and controls the pace of games, at home we're lost as an attacking threat and too casual.   

It's as if robbed of the spaces and gaps to exploit, we revert to brute force football - keep asking the same players to employ the same tactics to play through the banks of four - and inevitably become sloppy. 

And yet on the other side of the ball we'll allow an away team much more time and space to build, and before we know it they will have a spare man in space and a clear chance. Precisely what we can't create. 

It's frustrating, albeit we should remember  Brentford is a decent away team on the break, that won at Leeds and should have won at Villa too - admittedly all before the regression under their new manager.

What irritates me is they could have won comfortably today, despite all our purpose away from home, we become cowardly and unaggressive, committing so little into winning at AG, compared to an away side.

I know LJ is trying to fashion a more solid team and I know we played really well last time out versus Norwich, but we should be far bolder against poorer sides at home, with two up, occupying their defenders.

For one thing we get far too much of the ball and are asked to actually be creative rather than exploiting energy and space on the break, and when slowed down we are so deep it's hard to play through anyone. 

Our 4-3-3/4-5-1 ends up most of its time in the latter of the two formations, and when we're without the ball and get it back, more often than not we have to play through a back four with only Famara inside them.

It might work if the other 2 of them made diagonal runs but the one thing you can guarantee with City on the ball is no one will move. It's insane - every time Brentford broke they had runners off in all directions.

When City got the ball, already at a clear disadvantage from having only Famara up inside their underworked centre backs, we expected Paterson and O'Dowda to open up a flat back four by playing from deep. 

There were no willing runners and our best chances were to Famara on deep crosses - sorry to say but we don't move if we get it in midfield, it normally ended up with Pack, who was back to being comically awful.

Our best midfielder couldn't string a pass together, we didn't play with three bursting across the front that a 4-3-3 could offer, and so instead built from deep before we crossed deep to Famara or gave it away.

We're as one dimensional and depressing at home as we are smart and functional away from Ashton Gate, and once again at AG under LJ there is no big finish or rally, we are powder puff given a chance to play.

God only knows why Eliasson didn't get on earlier, if you are going to rely on crosses from miles out to get behind them, maybe  the best player you've got to do this might help, along with another forward to aim at.

O'Dowda worked hard but is the only one who can run at and beat defenders, I know Paterson "has been better recently" but the lightweight winger act is boring, I'd rather have a second striker breaking the lines. 

We'll never amount to more than a plucky away side but ultimately conservative mid-table team, when we don't have any real investment in attacking football for games where we have to show the initiative.

Wake me up when we're playing away again, please!

[Olé]

8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Sawyers, in contrast, more touches (77 v Pack 74 v Brownhill 62), and heat maps further forward too.

 

Christ, now there is a player we had not just the opportunities to sign but every advertisement for reasons to sign from our games against Walsall back in L1. 

He used to be a marauding full back, now he plays centrally, sitting at the back of the Brentford midfield and picking the passes. Very tidy and controls the pace.

On the other hand because Pep mentioned Marlon and because we have a video of LJ coaching his disguised pass, he was voted our best midfielder of the last 25 years.

Sorry to be down on him, especially when he has such dross to work with at home as no one moves, but he isn't even the best midfielder in most games at Ashton Gate.

He doesn't control the pace of the game and gives the ball away far too cheaply. I know yesterday was really error prone, but it's not as if he's having a good season.

At some point we have to get over the sentimentality with Pack. Walsh showed in a few games what we might expect from a CM actually dictating the pace and line.

Not to put it all on Marlon but I'm sick of saying he's had a bad game this year, it is far too often, maybe at some point he just isn't good enough for what we need.

As in the opening of this thread, we are an inconsistent team because our players are inconsistent - but worse than that the likes of Pack or Paterson are just very average.